O
Oregonbowhunter
Guest
Are they serious? $430 for a pair of pants! $500-550 for a jacket! That is just outrageous. I just don't understand.
txhunter58
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,610
Sounds like there are actually starting to believe their own advertizing. Talk about pricing themselves out of the market....
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
Cost is not a consideration in my recommendations but value is. If it is a good as I think it is going to be it will be worth every penny to me.
Top of the line materials from Gore, Primaloft, Polartec, a brand new scientifically designed camo pattern and state of the art construction techniques. That gear is among the most important you use out there and these are designed for the hardcore user that goes deep and stays deep until the job is done. For the trigger puller, that capability is rare and doesn't come cheap.
If it works, it will fill a space that has been begging for a long time and I won't have a problem with the price. If you really want and or need a Cadillac you will have to pay better than Chevy prices.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
Top of the line materials from Gore, Primaloft, Polartec, a brand new scientifically designed camo pattern and state of the art construction techniques. That gear is among the most important you use out there and these are designed for the hardcore user that goes deep and stays deep until the job is done. For the trigger puller, that capability is rare and doesn't come cheap.
If it works, it will fill a space that has been begging for a long time and I won't have a problem with the price. If you really want and or need a Cadillac you will have to pay better than Chevy prices.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
O
Oregonbowhunter
Guest
Seriously though, people have been getting along just fine for a lot of years doing the same hunts with far cheaper gear. I mean what did sheep guides in the Yukon wear all these years? Or any other guide or hunter in horrible conditions? I bet you it didn't cost a thousand bucks for a set and they were just fine. I don't care how well it performs it's not worth it.
fatrooster
Long Time Member
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- 4,187
I will stick with the Chevy prices. fatrooster.
C
CDN
Guest
This reminds me of when hunters used to say "I will never pay this much money for binoculars". Every tightwad I know has at least one piece of glass from the "big 3". Whether you buy it or not I appreciate having the choice. Hats off to SITKA for making technical gear for hunters. This is long overdue. We as an industry have been shunned for way to long because we hunt. Can't wait to see the new stuff in person. CDN
N
nruehmeier
Guest
I'll make due with what I got. $3500 for a "system" will fund a lot of other wants and needs.
I'm also a chevy man.
nrueh
I'm also a chevy man.
nrueh
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
It may not be worth it to some of you and that is just fine but as for me and many of my readers, we want the best. Period. Sitka is simply bringing the best of the recreational outdoor industry to the hunting market. It is long over due.
I am looking forward to having my mountaineering and hunting gear be at the same level for once. And I hear from special ops types everyday that are also very interested. There is a market for the high end trigger puller.
Whether you get it one piece at a time or all at once, state of the art is expensive but it does enhance performance and safety.
By the way, I am not sure that tallying up the cost of all of their products is a fair measurement. You don't have to have every single piece to benefit from the new features. Start with the shell gear and go from there.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
I am looking forward to having my mountaineering and hunting gear be at the same level for once. And I hear from special ops types everyday that are also very interested. There is a market for the high end trigger puller.
Whether you get it one piece at a time or all at once, state of the art is expensive but it does enhance performance and safety.
By the way, I am not sure that tallying up the cost of all of their products is a fair measurement. You don't have to have every single piece to benefit from the new features. Start with the shell gear and go from there.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
txhunter58
Long Time Member
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- 8,610
For what it is worth, this kind of attitude makes me wonder if you can identify with us 99% that won't spend that much for an outfit.
Why stop there. I am sure that someone could make them better for $10,000 for a head to toe outfit.
I stop buying cheap a long time ago. Get quality and you will be more comfortable and be able to hunt longer. But this line of clothes is only going to get a small share of the market, the elitist part.
Quality doesn't come cheap, but there has to be a limit. I have no problem with you wanting only the best and purchasing the same, but I don't know if I can rely on the judgement of someone who thinks there is not at least a little something wrong with paying that much for an outfit.
As far as what is "the best" that is also very debatable. I am sure there are plenty of people out there who have had name brand gore tex fail them, it has me. And I have used some less expensive alternate products that have served me well.
I have read many of your posts and found them to be VERY informative, so I am not trying to say you are not a great source of info, you certainly do your homework, and legwork! It is just that this makes me think you may have less to say to me personally.
I could go out and buy this outfit with cash tomorrow, but I won't. It proabably comes down to what we consider important to US. Bottom line, to each his own.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
Why stop there. I am sure that someone could make them better for $10,000 for a head to toe outfit.
I stop buying cheap a long time ago. Get quality and you will be more comfortable and be able to hunt longer. But this line of clothes is only going to get a small share of the market, the elitist part.
Quality doesn't come cheap, but there has to be a limit. I have no problem with you wanting only the best and purchasing the same, but I don't know if I can rely on the judgement of someone who thinks there is not at least a little something wrong with paying that much for an outfit.
As far as what is "the best" that is also very debatable. I am sure there are plenty of people out there who have had name brand gore tex fail them, it has me. And I have used some less expensive alternate products that have served me well.
I have read many of your posts and found them to be VERY informative, so I am not trying to say you are not a great source of info, you certainly do your homework, and legwork! It is just that this makes me think you may have less to say to me personally.
I could go out and buy this outfit with cash tomorrow, but I won't. It proabably comes down to what we consider important to US. Bottom line, to each his own.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
txhunter58
The group I serve is larger than 1%. It is probably more like between 5 and 10% according to the market demographic gurus. That niche group is called the ?elite outdoorsman? (I didn't know that when I started but I did know there were other people like me out there) and while they account for a relatively small percentage of the buyers they influence a much larger group that will at some point buy some of that more expensive gear.
Cody?s point about the binoculars is a good one and right on point. The elite outdoorsman (mostly Coues deer hunters and birders in this case) demanded better and more powerful optics. Manufacturers heard them and responded. It took some time but now high end optics are not only accepted but considered necessary by many. Just look at the scopes, binoculars and range finders that are available today and you will see the process at work. If there were no buyers at the upper end, there would be no market and we would not have the variety we now enjoy.
Elite outdoorsman push the envelope, change the market and drag a good portion of the buyers along with them over time. They are important to the healthy evolution of the market. They fund research, development and mutation. They are early adaptors. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't but over time we end up with better products that help us perform better or faster or for longer.
Remember that my background is in very high end search and rescue work and law enforcement which is comparable to special operations work. That is the "can't stop" part of the footer that appears on all of my articles. I grew up hunting, backpacking, riding, skiing and ATVing and have a great deal of respect and admiration for serious wilderness athletes which is the "won't stop" part.
Hey, I know that not everybody needs or can afford the best and there are many that never use it to its full capacity but it is what I am after and based on my numbers I am not alone. I do what I do because I love it. I am driven to find what I feel is the best. I use what I like and promote what I use. If it helps you great if not that's OK too but it is my contribution to the effort to drive the market in a particular direction. I make no apology for that.
Would a $10,000 set work better? No, I don't think so because the current technology isn't that expensive. You couldn't make an off the rack garment that costs that much if you tried so I don't accept that point. The new Sitka line represents the best clothing system available to the trigger puller but it is consistent in both price and performance with what we have had on the mountaineering side for quite some time now. And trust me, there is no shortage of willing buyers on that side for this level of gear.
What we are paying for here is innovation and risk. Sitka saw a want that was going unfulfilled and decided to take a risk in meeting it. I don't know this for sure but I would be willing to bet that Sitka is not making any greater profit margin on this line then they have with any other. In fact, I will bet that it is less because there is, believe it or not, a ceiling to what even elite outdoorsmen will pay. They want best in class and price is not an issue but value is. If they feel that they are getting a benefit or an edge, they will pay the freight but they won't pay top dollar or above for no perceivable gain. There will always be the very rich that will pay stupid money just for the sake of doing so but that is not who I am aimed at. There is a range for this type product and Sitka will be near the top of that range but it is not at all alone there. The mountaineering, skiing, climbing, backpacking etc side of the industry is littered with comparable products at the same price or a little more. It is a shock to hunters because these products have not been available to us in the colors and camo patterns that we wanted. It is new to us but once Sitka breaches that barrier other similar lines will follow.
Like I said, top of the line materials and state of the art design and construction in colors/patterns trigger pullers want has been elusive. Sitka is just addressing a need in the market. How big is that need? We will find out won't we. However, the true prize in this effort, the holy grail in this quest is all of the above plus low weight and low noise. To each his own? You bet. Lead, follow or get out of the way.
Now, how did Gore-Tex fail you? And what Gore-Tex alternatives worked better?
Regards,
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
The group I serve is larger than 1%. It is probably more like between 5 and 10% according to the market demographic gurus. That niche group is called the ?elite outdoorsman? (I didn't know that when I started but I did know there were other people like me out there) and while they account for a relatively small percentage of the buyers they influence a much larger group that will at some point buy some of that more expensive gear.
Cody?s point about the binoculars is a good one and right on point. The elite outdoorsman (mostly Coues deer hunters and birders in this case) demanded better and more powerful optics. Manufacturers heard them and responded. It took some time but now high end optics are not only accepted but considered necessary by many. Just look at the scopes, binoculars and range finders that are available today and you will see the process at work. If there were no buyers at the upper end, there would be no market and we would not have the variety we now enjoy.
Elite outdoorsman push the envelope, change the market and drag a good portion of the buyers along with them over time. They are important to the healthy evolution of the market. They fund research, development and mutation. They are early adaptors. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't but over time we end up with better products that help us perform better or faster or for longer.
Remember that my background is in very high end search and rescue work and law enforcement which is comparable to special operations work. That is the "can't stop" part of the footer that appears on all of my articles. I grew up hunting, backpacking, riding, skiing and ATVing and have a great deal of respect and admiration for serious wilderness athletes which is the "won't stop" part.
Hey, I know that not everybody needs or can afford the best and there are many that never use it to its full capacity but it is what I am after and based on my numbers I am not alone. I do what I do because I love it. I am driven to find what I feel is the best. I use what I like and promote what I use. If it helps you great if not that's OK too but it is my contribution to the effort to drive the market in a particular direction. I make no apology for that.
Would a $10,000 set work better? No, I don't think so because the current technology isn't that expensive. You couldn't make an off the rack garment that costs that much if you tried so I don't accept that point. The new Sitka line represents the best clothing system available to the trigger puller but it is consistent in both price and performance with what we have had on the mountaineering side for quite some time now. And trust me, there is no shortage of willing buyers on that side for this level of gear.
What we are paying for here is innovation and risk. Sitka saw a want that was going unfulfilled and decided to take a risk in meeting it. I don't know this for sure but I would be willing to bet that Sitka is not making any greater profit margin on this line then they have with any other. In fact, I will bet that it is less because there is, believe it or not, a ceiling to what even elite outdoorsmen will pay. They want best in class and price is not an issue but value is. If they feel that they are getting a benefit or an edge, they will pay the freight but they won't pay top dollar or above for no perceivable gain. There will always be the very rich that will pay stupid money just for the sake of doing so but that is not who I am aimed at. There is a range for this type product and Sitka will be near the top of that range but it is not at all alone there. The mountaineering, skiing, climbing, backpacking etc side of the industry is littered with comparable products at the same price or a little more. It is a shock to hunters because these products have not been available to us in the colors and camo patterns that we wanted. It is new to us but once Sitka breaches that barrier other similar lines will follow.
Like I said, top of the line materials and state of the art design and construction in colors/patterns trigger pullers want has been elusive. Sitka is just addressing a need in the market. How big is that need? We will find out won't we. However, the true prize in this effort, the holy grail in this quest is all of the above plus low weight and low noise. To each his own? You bet. Lead, follow or get out of the way.
Now, how did Gore-Tex fail you? And what Gore-Tex alternatives worked better?
Regards,
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
txhunter58
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,610
Elete outdoorsman = Harcoreoutdoor
I guess the name is fitting. I understand now better who you are and whom you serve. I would have to say that your knowlege and research can only help us who are not in that category. Your evaluations of boots certainly helps those in all categories.
As far as Goretex failures, a couple of pair of boots, practically straight out of the box, so I don't believe it was user error. To be honest, Gore tex (teflon) is probably not all that expensive to manufactue. At this point, we are paying for the name and guarantee. And don't get me wrong, the guarantee is definately worth something. The boots in question (I forget what brand) were replaced, no quesitons asked.
As far as alternatives. I have a pair of packable rainwear from Cabelas with "dry plus". I have used them for 8-9 years and they have always kept me dry.
I am sure the Sitka gear does have a slight advantage over the gear I use, but I don't believe the advantage is worth the price at this point. It isn't to me, and that is the bottom line. If it is to others, so be it.
And I think Optifade made an error in judgement just allowing them to use the pattern. Time will tell, and it may be the greatest thing in camo ever invented, but when you see guys like Randy Ulmer year in and year out kill huge animals with things like outfitter camo (they used patterns like this when I was in high shcool), you realize it just doesn't make that much difference. And I would bet you that using optifade is adding considerable to the price of the garment.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
I guess the name is fitting. I understand now better who you are and whom you serve. I would have to say that your knowlege and research can only help us who are not in that category. Your evaluations of boots certainly helps those in all categories.
As far as Goretex failures, a couple of pair of boots, practically straight out of the box, so I don't believe it was user error. To be honest, Gore tex (teflon) is probably not all that expensive to manufactue. At this point, we are paying for the name and guarantee. And don't get me wrong, the guarantee is definately worth something. The boots in question (I forget what brand) were replaced, no quesitons asked.
As far as alternatives. I have a pair of packable rainwear from Cabelas with "dry plus". I have used them for 8-9 years and they have always kept me dry.
I am sure the Sitka gear does have a slight advantage over the gear I use, but I don't believe the advantage is worth the price at this point. It isn't to me, and that is the bottom line. If it is to others, so be it.
And I think Optifade made an error in judgement just allowing them to use the pattern. Time will tell, and it may be the greatest thing in camo ever invented, but when you see guys like Randy Ulmer year in and year out kill huge animals with things like outfitter camo (they used patterns like this when I was in high shcool), you realize it just doesn't make that much difference. And I would bet you that using optifade is adding considerable to the price of the garment.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
LAST EDITED ON Jun-24-09 AT 08:41AM (MST)[p]For me it's worth it for the pieces that will get used a lot. You don't need to buy the whole system, just buy what you need. As an archery hunter I am usually sweating out the early season. The Base Layer shirts and Ascent pants are the absolute best items I have found and I think they are worth it. They don't fade, dry quick, take a beating and are more comfortable than anything else I have found.
Another point... Have you guys stepped into an REI or mountaineering shop lately? Sitka gear's prices compare right in line with top of the line mountaineering gear, always have. It shouldn't be a surprise if you are at all familiar with high quality non camo mountain climbing gear (Arcyterx, North Face, Mountain Hardware, etc.) that has been out there for years. It's just what that type of stuff costs. Sitka's idea has always been to bring mountaineering style gear to hunters. Hard Core types in AK and other mountain states have been buying non-camo mountaineering clothing to hunt in for years because it was what they needed for that style of demanding hunting. Regular hunting clothes didn't cut it. Now they don't have to and it costs about the same. That's apples to apples.
Compared to Wal Mart stuff or the back East stuff sold in the big box stores, Sitka is expensive. That's an unfair comparison since the gear is not the same and not meant to be. Compared to high end mountain climbing gear, however, it's comparable. And that is exactly what Sitka's niche has always been.
Another point... Have you guys stepped into an REI or mountaineering shop lately? Sitka gear's prices compare right in line with top of the line mountaineering gear, always have. It shouldn't be a surprise if you are at all familiar with high quality non camo mountain climbing gear (Arcyterx, North Face, Mountain Hardware, etc.) that has been out there for years. It's just what that type of stuff costs. Sitka's idea has always been to bring mountaineering style gear to hunters. Hard Core types in AK and other mountain states have been buying non-camo mountaineering clothing to hunt in for years because it was what they needed for that style of demanding hunting. Regular hunting clothes didn't cut it. Now they don't have to and it costs about the same. That's apples to apples.
Compared to Wal Mart stuff or the back East stuff sold in the big box stores, Sitka is expensive. That's an unfair comparison since the gear is not the same and not meant to be. Compared to high end mountain climbing gear, however, it's comparable. And that is exactly what Sitka's niche has always been.
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
Please don't get hung up by the name of that market niche, elite outdoorsman, that is just what somebody named it and it stuck. It represents a group that is always striving for what they believe is the best that they can get either out of necessity of the mission or just want and are not sensitive to price either because they have plenty of money or they are spending somebody elses. Pushing the limits of performance is not a bad thing, we all eventually benefit from it. Our modern world is filled with similar examples. Gore-Tex and eVent are the current state of the art but there are some interesting things on the horizon from the military involving nanotechnology. Managing moisture and temperature of high activity human endeavors is still the industrys biggest chalenge.
Again, price is rarely part of my evaluation criteria. We are looking for what we think is best in class regardless of price no matter if it is the least or most expensive.
You know, Gore-Tex in boots is a tough one. Under normal circumstances Gore-Tex will not fail unless it has been contaminated or damaged (Wiggy is writing me another email to the contrary I am sure) and it seems to last for a very long time. The trouble seems to be with the boots more than anything else and it is usually with the softer boots that flex more.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
Again, price is rarely part of my evaluation criteria. We are looking for what we think is best in class regardless of price no matter if it is the least or most expensive.
You know, Gore-Tex in boots is a tough one. Under normal circumstances Gore-Tex will not fail unless it has been contaminated or damaged (Wiggy is writing me another email to the contrary I am sure) and it seems to last for a very long time. The trouble seems to be with the boots more than anything else and it is usually with the softer boots that flex more.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
txhunter58
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,610
I hear what you are saying and you make some good points. I don't see how I would be happier with Sitka gear more than the ones I have, especially capilene as a base layer, for me it just works. There are definately cheaper and more expensive base layers out but when you use something and it works great, you stick with it.
The only way I see me ever buying Sitka gear is as an outside rain suit when I think I may be hunting in driving rain for days. Then I am sure that it might shine. And I would probably wait for a clearance sale!
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
The only way I see me ever buying Sitka gear is as an outside rain suit when I think I may be hunting in driving rain for days. Then I am sure that it might shine. And I would probably wait for a clearance sale!
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
Mallards_Only
Active Member
- Messages
- 610
The way I see it is that no one is forcing you to buy it--SO DON'T!! There's certainly plenty of less expensive stuff out there for you to choose from. Sitka hasn't taken that away. I'm going to try some Sitka stuff because, over the years, I've found you get what you pay for. I've killed a lot of animals in cheap Walmart stuff though. I've just been wetter and hotter doing it. I'm going to try some Sitka pieces and if they live up to the cost, I'll buy some more. Tx, why does it bother you that others choose to spend more on gear than you? This is the same debate that I've heard on other forums (replace Sitka with Benelli, DSD's, etc) I get a little tired of all the guys who choose not to spend the $$$ and contend that cheaper is better. If that's your choice, so be it.
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
Also consider that there has to be gear for the very high end users. Those guys on the ragged edge that can't turn back for whatever reason. Those are the guys that need every advantage they can get because it might be the difference between somebody living or dying. Trust me, I was in a position to see that happen first hand too many times. Bad or inferior gear in the wrong situation can be deadly.
Granted even the very best gear cannot save someone from themselves and we are talking about a small group but again they are the leading edge that we all follow behind. They are carrying the water and plowing the ground to produce something that we will all benefit from at some point in the future. If the Sitka gear lives up to expectations they should be rewarded, if not then they will suffer the consequences of the market (unless of course our government gives them a bail out but that is another discussion entirely). I am betting/hoping on the former not the latter.
Anyway, good discussion. I am done with this one.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
Granted even the very best gear cannot save someone from themselves and we are talking about a small group but again they are the leading edge that we all follow behind. They are carrying the water and plowing the ground to produce something that we will all benefit from at some point in the future. If the Sitka gear lives up to expectations they should be rewarded, if not then they will suffer the consequences of the market (unless of course our government gives them a bail out but that is another discussion entirely). I am betting/hoping on the former not the latter.
Anyway, good discussion. I am done with this one.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
O
Oregonbowhunter
Guest
No one said anything about being forced to buy it. The problem is, is that I would like to buy some sitka gear but let's face it not many people have that kind of money to spend.
Tell me this, Sitka effectively doubled the cost of one of there jackets from one year to the next. So tell me, is it twice the jacket?
Tell me this, Sitka effectively doubled the cost of one of there jackets from one year to the next. So tell me, is it twice the jacket?
txhunter58
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,610
LAST EDITED ON Jun-24-09 AT 07:11PM (MST)[p]>The way I see it is
>that no one is forcing
>you to buy it--SO DON'T!!
> There's certainly plenty of
>less expensive stuff out there
>for you to choose from.
> Sitka hasn't taken that
>away. I'm going to
>try some Sitka stuff because,
>over the years, I've found
>you get what you pay
>for. I've killed a
>lot of animals in cheap
>Walmart stuff though. I've
>just been wetter and hotter
>doing it. I'm going
>to try some Sitka pieces
>and if they live up
>to the cost, I'll buy
>some more. Tx, why
>does it bother you that
>others choose to spend more
>on gear than you?
>This is the same debate
>that I've heard on other
>forums (replace Sitka with Benelli,
>DSD's, etc) I get
>a little tired of all
>the guys who choose not
>to spend the $$$ and
>contend that cheaper is better.
> If that's your choice,
>so be it.
Ok I won't buy it! We are just having a friendly discussion. I tend to learn the most in dissucssions where I happen to disagree with other people. I am cetainly open to learning at any age.
But as stated, I don't buy cheap Wally world crap. I too have been there done that. I buy quality stuff that keeps me warm/cool, blister free, and dry. Doesn't cost near as much as Sitka.
REI capilene long johns are certainly not cheap, but I challenge you to find any that work better for me at any price! And paying extra for this or that camo pattern is not for me. Game doesn't seem to know the diffence in my hunting experience (40+ years)
So, it doesn't BOTHER me if YOU want to buy some, be my guest. My contention is that there is quality stuff out there for the 95% of us who won't.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
>that no one is forcing
>you to buy it--SO DON'T!!
> There's certainly plenty of
>less expensive stuff out there
>for you to choose from.
> Sitka hasn't taken that
>away. I'm going to
>try some Sitka stuff because,
>over the years, I've found
>you get what you pay
>for. I've killed a
>lot of animals in cheap
>Walmart stuff though. I've
>just been wetter and hotter
>doing it. I'm going
>to try some Sitka pieces
>and if they live up
>to the cost, I'll buy
>some more. Tx, why
>does it bother you that
>others choose to spend more
>on gear than you?
>This is the same debate
>that I've heard on other
>forums (replace Sitka with Benelli,
>DSD's, etc) I get
>a little tired of all
>the guys who choose not
>to spend the $$$ and
>contend that cheaper is better.
> If that's your choice,
>so be it.
Ok I won't buy it! We are just having a friendly discussion. I tend to learn the most in dissucssions where I happen to disagree with other people. I am cetainly open to learning at any age.
But as stated, I don't buy cheap Wally world crap. I too have been there done that. I buy quality stuff that keeps me warm/cool, blister free, and dry. Doesn't cost near as much as Sitka.
REI capilene long johns are certainly not cheap, but I challenge you to find any that work better for me at any price! And paying extra for this or that camo pattern is not for me. Game doesn't seem to know the diffence in my hunting experience (40+ years)
So, it doesn't BOTHER me if YOU want to buy some, be my guest. My contention is that there is quality stuff out there for the 95% of us who won't.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
"REI capilene."
REI makes MTS base layers made out of Polypropylene. My current personal favorite by the way.
Capilene is a competing base layer prooduct made by Patagonia and also of Polypropylene.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
REI makes MTS base layers made out of Polypropylene. My current personal favorite by the way.
Capilene is a competing base layer prooduct made by Patagonia and also of Polypropylene.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
O
Oregonbowhunter
Guest
I have Patagonia capilene base layers and they are awesome and cheaper than Sitka's base layers. Base layers don't need to be camo, they are underneath your over layers! If it's warm enough that you strip down to your base layers, you don't need base layers. Camo base layers are dumb in my opinion.
txhunter58
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,610
Sorry, I usually buy it at/through REI, but you are right, it is Patagonia Capilene.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
DirtyTough
Active Member
- Messages
- 442
I looked at the price of there rain gear cause I might need some new stuff this year. When I saw just the coat was $300 I figured they must of lit up right before pricing there gear.
And if this stuff is made for the backpack hunter why is it so heavy?
BTW, I do use high end optics cause they actually help on the hunt. I see no way paying over 3 times the price for clothing that does the same thing as the stuff I already have is going to help me be more successful?
And if this stuff is made for the backpack hunter why is it so heavy?
BTW, I do use high end optics cause they actually help on the hunt. I see no way paying over 3 times the price for clothing that does the same thing as the stuff I already have is going to help me be more successful?
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
Well, I can't explain it any better than I already have. If you don't agree with what I have said in the previous posts you are probably not who these products are aimed at. That's OK, different strokes for different folks.
I am excited about their new line and based on the amount of email I am getting on the subject, I am not alone.
What do you suggest as alternatives?
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
I am excited about their new line and based on the amount of email I am getting on the subject, I am not alone.
What do you suggest as alternatives?
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
B
BUGLELK
Guest
Hey guys,
I just had to jump in and point out a few things that have been incorrectly stated and/or assumed...
FYI, I am far from what I would consider an elite hunter or whatever the classification being tossed around was.
cbeard said: "Sitka touts its gear as a "system". Just for grins,I added up the prices of the entire 2009 line,or "system".
Total:$3796."
That is about like saying Ford has the best fleet of utility vehicles and adding up the price of every one of their vehicles to determine how much it would cost you to own a Ford utility vehicle. Sitka is designed to function as a layering system of gear. However, there are 3 different waterproof shells available in this years line...you don't need all 3, but hunters now have an option whether they want packable, insulated, etc. There are 4 vests...you don't need 4 vests, but someone hunting whitetails in Wisconsin in December might need a little more insulation than someone wanting a vest to wear in the mornings on an Idaho archery elk hunt. You have options. To claim that a set or "system" of Sitka costs $3796 takes a lot of creative accounting.
oregonbowhunter said: "Seriously though, people have been getting along just fine for a lot of years doing the same hunts with far cheaper gear. I mean what did sheep guides in the Yukon wear all these years? Or any other guide or hunter in horrible conditions? I bet you it didn't cost a thousand bucks for a set and they were just fine. I don't care how well it performs it's not worth it."
And framers used to use hammers. I'll bet they're glad someone came out with an air nail gun. The cost is far more than an old wood-handled hammer, which is what framers used all those years. Ask Lance Kronberger (sheep guide in Alaska) if he was "just fine" in his cheaper gear before Sitka came along...
"Tell me this, Sitka effectively doubled the cost of one of there jackets from one year to the next. So tell me, is it twice the jacket?"
Which jacket did they double the cost of? Most of the prices are in line with last years prices...there are new pieces in the line that cost more than previous items, but not on an even comparison.
"If it's warm enough that you strip down to your base layers, you don't need base layers. Camo base layers are dumb in my opinion."
Warm weather is the very reason why you need a base layer. Base layers are not insulating, they are wicking. They move moisture away from your skin to keep your core body temperature consistant. Camo base layer shirts are all I wear from July through October, so having camo base layers is not only not "dumb", it's critical.
txhunter58 said: "And I think Optifade made an error in judgement just allowing them to use the pattern. Time will tell, and it may be the greatest thing in camo ever invented, but when you see guys like Randy Ulmer year in and year out kill huge animals with things like outfitter camo (they used patterns like this when I was in high shcool), you realize it just doesn't make that much difference."
What camo and gear has Randy Ulmer been wearing on hunts for the past 2 years? That was a great bull he killed in AZ last fall, wasn't it?
OK, back to the debate...
Corey
I just had to jump in and point out a few things that have been incorrectly stated and/or assumed...
FYI, I am far from what I would consider an elite hunter or whatever the classification being tossed around was.
cbeard said: "Sitka touts its gear as a "system". Just for grins,I added up the prices of the entire 2009 line,or "system".
Total:$3796."
That is about like saying Ford has the best fleet of utility vehicles and adding up the price of every one of their vehicles to determine how much it would cost you to own a Ford utility vehicle. Sitka is designed to function as a layering system of gear. However, there are 3 different waterproof shells available in this years line...you don't need all 3, but hunters now have an option whether they want packable, insulated, etc. There are 4 vests...you don't need 4 vests, but someone hunting whitetails in Wisconsin in December might need a little more insulation than someone wanting a vest to wear in the mornings on an Idaho archery elk hunt. You have options. To claim that a set or "system" of Sitka costs $3796 takes a lot of creative accounting.
oregonbowhunter said: "Seriously though, people have been getting along just fine for a lot of years doing the same hunts with far cheaper gear. I mean what did sheep guides in the Yukon wear all these years? Or any other guide or hunter in horrible conditions? I bet you it didn't cost a thousand bucks for a set and they were just fine. I don't care how well it performs it's not worth it."
And framers used to use hammers. I'll bet they're glad someone came out with an air nail gun. The cost is far more than an old wood-handled hammer, which is what framers used all those years. Ask Lance Kronberger (sheep guide in Alaska) if he was "just fine" in his cheaper gear before Sitka came along...
"Tell me this, Sitka effectively doubled the cost of one of there jackets from one year to the next. So tell me, is it twice the jacket?"
Which jacket did they double the cost of? Most of the prices are in line with last years prices...there are new pieces in the line that cost more than previous items, but not on an even comparison.
"If it's warm enough that you strip down to your base layers, you don't need base layers. Camo base layers are dumb in my opinion."
Warm weather is the very reason why you need a base layer. Base layers are not insulating, they are wicking. They move moisture away from your skin to keep your core body temperature consistant. Camo base layer shirts are all I wear from July through October, so having camo base layers is not only not "dumb", it's critical.
txhunter58 said: "And I think Optifade made an error in judgement just allowing them to use the pattern. Time will tell, and it may be the greatest thing in camo ever invented, but when you see guys like Randy Ulmer year in and year out kill huge animals with things like outfitter camo (they used patterns like this when I was in high shcool), you realize it just doesn't make that much difference."
What camo and gear has Randy Ulmer been wearing on hunts for the past 2 years? That was a great bull he killed in AZ last fall, wasn't it?
OK, back to the debate...
Corey
cbeard
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,458
Sir, you do not know whereof you speak.I didn't add up four shells,three vests,etc. I simply took the latest version of each piece that has a separate application and tallied the total.If they are not all independently useful depending on the conditions,then why are they marketed as such? My accounting was not creative at all. When many pieces are $300 to $600 it just doesn't take long to add up,that's all.
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
Corey,
Whether you want to embrace the term "elite outdoorsman/outdoor elite" or not, you, by the very nature of what you do, fall into that demographic. Any hardcore hunter that goes hard and deep, is picky about what he uses and naturally gravitates to top notch gear does. You wouldn't be a Sitka user if you didn't. That's not a bad thing.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
Whether you want to embrace the term "elite outdoorsman/outdoor elite" or not, you, by the very nature of what you do, fall into that demographic. Any hardcore hunter that goes hard and deep, is picky about what he uses and naturally gravitates to top notch gear does. You wouldn't be a Sitka user if you didn't. That's not a bad thing.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
txhunter58
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,610
LAST EDITED ON Jun-26-09 AT 04:14PM (MST)[p]"What camo and gear has Randy Ulmer been wearing on hunts for the past 2 years? That was a great bull he killed in AZ last fall, wasn't it?"
He is wearing the camo from the company that pays him the most! Seems smart to me!
But check out his website: http://www.randyulmer.com/
What camo is he wearing in the picture at the top right holding that monster buck?
And look at his photo galary. He uses a wide range of camo patterns. Why? Because it doesn't matter that much which pattern you use as long as it breaks up your outline.
You do bring out some good points though.
And if I were a sheep guide and worked daily in driving rain, I would probably pay anything to get a shell that kept me dry. The layers underneath though can be had for less money.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
He is wearing the camo from the company that pays him the most! Seems smart to me!
But check out his website: http://www.randyulmer.com/
What camo is he wearing in the picture at the top right holding that monster buck?
And look at his photo galary. He uses a wide range of camo patterns. Why? Because it doesn't matter that much which pattern you use as long as it breaks up your outline.
You do bring out some good points though.
And if I were a sheep guide and worked daily in driving rain, I would probably pay anything to get a shell that kept me dry. The layers underneath though can be had for less money.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
B
BUGLELK
Guest
"He is wearing the camo from the company that pays him the most! Seems smart to me!"
So if he has recently been wearing Sitka/Optifade and is not paid a penny for doing so, that must say a lot about the camo/gear, no? I only point him out because you mentioned he had been wearing standard camo/gear for years and doing quite well. And I agree, he has. But if he voluntarily switches to a better product and isn't paid anything to do so, I'd say it speaks volumes for that product. Especially given the choices he has...
Just my 2 cents...
Corey
So if he has recently been wearing Sitka/Optifade and is not paid a penny for doing so, that must say a lot about the camo/gear, no? I only point him out because you mentioned he had been wearing standard camo/gear for years and doing quite well. And I agree, he has. But if he voluntarily switches to a better product and isn't paid anything to do so, I'd say it speaks volumes for that product. Especially given the choices he has...
Just my 2 cents...
Corey
txhunter58
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,610
Not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that you know he is not getting paid for wearing it? That would certainly surprise me.
At the very least, even if he isn't getting paid an endorsement, he would not have paid for the garment.
If someone gives me free a state of the art garment, I would probably use it too, whatever the camo pattern, so no it doesn't mean that he thinks it is head and shoulders above the rest. He wouldn't hesitate to use the old tried and true camos.
Of course, I am putting words in his mouth. Maybe you have some statements by him stating his undying love of optifade?
Couple of years ago, Jim Zumbo was advertising for some Cabelas camo hunting garments, they showed pictures of him with big elk in a flannel shirt and jeans. I emailed him and told him he should at least wear the garments he was promoting. The next year, the catalog had him wearing the gear.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
At the very least, even if he isn't getting paid an endorsement, he would not have paid for the garment.
If someone gives me free a state of the art garment, I would probably use it too, whatever the camo pattern, so no it doesn't mean that he thinks it is head and shoulders above the rest. He wouldn't hesitate to use the old tried and true camos.
Of course, I am putting words in his mouth. Maybe you have some statements by him stating his undying love of optifade?
Couple of years ago, Jim Zumbo was advertising for some Cabelas camo hunting garments, they showed pictures of him with big elk in a flannel shirt and jeans. I emailed him and told him he should at least wear the garments he was promoting. The next year, the catalog had him wearing the gear.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
B
bhunter
Guest
Sitka is too expensive for me too, but the best thing is in a couple of years other mfg will get into the ring and up grade their stuff and the prices will be more reasonable. Right now Sikta is hot and they can sell it for what the market will bear. In the long run it will get other suppliers to take a look at this market.
Right now can't any one MFG a camo rain gear with pit zips its almost like a taboo I mean hasn't any of these guys ever elk hunted and climbed a MT with Gortex rain gear ventilation is where its at with rain gear grrr....Most rain gear is designed for tree stand hunters with the exception of Stika gear, I just need to win the lottery.
If there is any proof of a man in a hunt it is not whether he killed a deer or elk but how he hunted it.
Right now can't any one MFG a camo rain gear with pit zips its almost like a taboo I mean hasn't any of these guys ever elk hunted and climbed a MT with Gortex rain gear ventilation is where its at with rain gear grrr....Most rain gear is designed for tree stand hunters with the exception of Stika gear, I just need to win the lottery.
If there is any proof of a man in a hunt it is not whether he killed a deer or elk but how he hunted it.
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
The workbook that Jason handed to me shows that the Stormfront, Stormfront Lite and Coldfront Jackets all have Pit Zips. It also lists them in the features of each.
I would love to be able to verify that by physically inspecting the garments myself but apparently my package is being shipped via donkey from Napa Valley to Scottsdale. 'Cause it sure ain't the UPS guy, who running way short on sense of humor and threatening to file a TRO against me If I don't stop chasing him around the block like some sort of starved lunatic.
The website says that the Stormfront and Coldfront Jackets have Pit Zips but the Stormfront Jacket does not list them as a feature. I hope that is an typo, if not that could be a problem for me.
Suffice it to say, I am eagerly awaiting the new Sitka products.
I did just get a mess of new Russel Outdoors APX G2 stuff though.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
I would love to be able to verify that by physically inspecting the garments myself but apparently my package is being shipped via donkey from Napa Valley to Scottsdale. 'Cause it sure ain't the UPS guy, who running way short on sense of humor and threatening to file a TRO against me If I don't stop chasing him around the block like some sort of starved lunatic.
The website says that the Stormfront and Coldfront Jackets have Pit Zips but the Stormfront Jacket does not list them as a feature. I hope that is an typo, if not that could be a problem for me.
Suffice it to say, I am eagerly awaiting the new Sitka products.
I did just get a mess of new Russel Outdoors APX G2 stuff though.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
B
BUGLELK
Guest
Coldfront and Stormfront Jackets have pit zips...the Stormfront Light jacket does not.
Corey
Corey
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
That is disappointing. Any idea why the production piece ended up being different than what is described in the workbook?
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
Why not? High end equipment and gear should be used for what it is designed. Buy it, use it, push the envelope.
Great gear allows you go faster, farther and stay out longer. It enhances performance and safety.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
Great gear allows you go faster, farther and stay out longer. It enhances performance and safety.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
B
bhunter
Guest
Wade I posted this on another thread maybve you have not seen or ignoring it but that is not like you? Have tested the sporthill camo the reason I ask is because I really like mine not the color so much but the clothes are very well made and have all the good features and you can get prices right now though mile marker?
If there is any proof of a man in a hunt it is not whether he killed a deer or elk but how he hunted it.
If there is any proof of a man in a hunt it is not whether he killed a deer or elk but how he hunted it.
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
I received my shipment from Sitka today. First imporession is that I like the Optifade Pattern very much.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
The Stormfront Jacket is very nice. I have not had it in the field yet but it sure looks like what we have been waiting for. Good hood configuration, nice pocket set, efficient design, outstanding quality construction, pit zips, I dig the Optifade and the XL I have weighs in at 22 ounces which is better than I had hoped for. I think they nailed it.
If I had to nit pick anything at this early stage it would be the noise but that is not a Sitka problem, it is a technological one. We need an advance in the state of the art. You can have quiet and moderate weight with the Gore Softshell or medium noise and light weight with the Gore Performance Shell but low noise and low weight just doesn't exist yet. This is a little louder than the Nimbus and about even with my military APECS parkas and Integral Designs eVent Jacket but quieter than the TAD Gear Predator.
If this Stormfront Jacket doesn't push the Sitka Nimbus Jacket off the top of my list and become my favorite I will be very surprised. It is a beautiful piece.
When you order make sure you get the size right. I am a pretty straight forward XL in tops and bottoms from most manufacturers but I had to go with an XXL in the Nimbus Jacket to properly accomodate my heaviest insulation layer pieces and I will do the same for the Stormfront. I think they need a fit model that is not in such good shape.
So far, so good. Well done and congrats boys.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
If I had to nit pick anything at this early stage it would be the noise but that is not a Sitka problem, it is a technological one. We need an advance in the state of the art. You can have quiet and moderate weight with the Gore Softshell or medium noise and light weight with the Gore Performance Shell but low noise and low weight just doesn't exist yet. This is a little louder than the Nimbus and about even with my military APECS parkas and Integral Designs eVent Jacket but quieter than the TAD Gear Predator.
If this Stormfront Jacket doesn't push the Sitka Nimbus Jacket off the top of my list and become my favorite I will be very surprised. It is a beautiful piece.
When you order make sure you get the size right. I am a pretty straight forward XL in tops and bottoms from most manufacturers but I had to go with an XXL in the Nimbus Jacket to properly accomodate my heaviest insulation layer pieces and I will do the same for the Stormfront. I think they need a fit model that is not in such good shape.
So far, so good. Well done and congrats boys.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
I need to correct something that I said in post #8 of this thread.
I wrote "Top of the line materials from Gore, Primaloft, Polartec, a brand new scientifically designed camo pattern and state of the art construction techniques."
Much to my disappointment, Sitka is not using Polartec (specificly Polartec Power Dry and Powerstretch) despite what it says in their 2009 Dealer Workbook and on their website as recently as today.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
I wrote "Top of the line materials from Gore, Primaloft, Polartec, a brand new scientifically designed camo pattern and state of the art construction techniques."
Much to my disappointment, Sitka is not using Polartec (specificly Polartec Power Dry and Powerstretch) despite what it says in their 2009 Dealer Workbook and on their website as recently as today.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
M
mthunter22
Guest
could you or anyone please tell me what is that much better about the sitka stuff.i buy the best but even the sitka rainwear says water resistant, ive bought enough stuff to know that water resistant clothing gets you wet.ive looked at the sitka a lot and like the new camoflauge but to me its kind of loud material and cant really see where this stuff is that great.really dont understand wehy mountaneering people wouldnt want water proof.
B
BUGLELK
Guest
mthunter,
All of Sitka's rainwear is 100% waterproof. I couldn't see anywhere that it was advertised as water resistant. The soft shell line of jackets, etc is treated with DWR for water resistance, but the rainwear is 100% waterproof and I've never heard of anyone having issues staying dry with the rainwear. Mountaineering people, as well as serious hunters, not only want, but demand waterproof. They get that with Sitka.
Corey
All of Sitka's rainwear is 100% waterproof. I couldn't see anywhere that it was advertised as water resistant. The soft shell line of jackets, etc is treated with DWR for water resistance, but the rainwear is 100% waterproof and I've never heard of anyone having issues staying dry with the rainwear. Mountaineering people, as well as serious hunters, not only want, but demand waterproof. They get that with Sitka.
Corey
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
Not sure what you have been looking at or what specific pieces you are interested in but your conclusion is incorrect.
The Stormfront, Stormfront Lite, and Coldfront (Gore Soft-Shell) top/bottom sets are all treated with a durable water repellant and use the Gore-Tex waterproof/vapor permeable laminate which carries the Guaranteed To Keep You Dry warranty. They are waterproof for purposes of protecting the user from precipitation and wind.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
The Stormfront, Stormfront Lite, and Coldfront (Gore Soft-Shell) top/bottom sets are all treated with a durable water repellant and use the Gore-Tex waterproof/vapor permeable laminate which carries the Guaranteed To Keep You Dry warranty. They are waterproof for purposes of protecting the user from precipitation and wind.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
M
mthunter22
Guest
the catalog i had didnt have the coldfront or stormfront ,but i looked at sitka and see that those specific ones sre waterproof.can someone tell me that uses it why it is better than say riverswest?which all their stuff is waterproof they have the underarm zips and a host of other options.just curious on why some think the sitka is better than the others as i have considered getting some but the price has held me up.
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
The principle difference is breathability. The fabric that Rivers West uses is not vapor permeable, at all, so it will not "breathe" but it is waterproof. The Sitka Stormfront Jackets use the vapor permeable Gore-Tex laminate which "breathes" and it is also waterproof.
Rivers West is very good quality gear, tough, waterproof, and quiet but it is not suited to physically active hunting. It is best for sitting or riding something.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
Rivers West is very good quality gear, tough, waterproof, and quiet but it is not suited to physically active hunting. It is best for sitting or riding something.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
flyingbrass
Active Member
- Messages
- 750
Where could a person actually try this gear on at?
Not may places for sure in Arkansas. I found a Celcius Jacket at Mack's Prairie WIngs and it was pretty good. I'm lookin for a raincoat type.
The Cabelas in Dallas TX didn't have any of it.
flyingbrass
cold dead hands
NRA Life Member
Not may places for sure in Arkansas. I found a Celcius Jacket at Mack's Prairie WIngs and it was pretty good. I'm lookin for a raincoat type.
The Cabelas in Dallas TX didn't have any of it.
flyingbrass
cold dead hands
NRA Life Member
B
bhunter
Guest
The other issue with Rivers West is that it takes forever to dry. I don't know about Sitka ( I would like to) but the MT50 rain gear from Cabelas dries very quickly.
If there is any proof of a man in a hunt it is not whether he killed a deer or elk but how he hunted it.
If there is any proof of a man in a hunt it is not whether he killed a deer or elk but how he hunted it.
S
SonoranOutfittersnet
Guest
I'm a Outfitter Sitka member. It is expensive, but wears and hunts great.
TR
TR
luckynvhunter
Member
- Messages
- 13
I have been field testing the Sitka Line for three years now and have been so impressed that I have gotten rid of every other type of hunting clothing I owned. People need to realize that although Sitka is more expensive, it is made extremely well and doesn't need to be replaced constantly like a lot of other lines. I have been using the Sitka gear for three years on 90 diffferent actual hunts and I haven't had even one product fail. All Zippers still work and I haven't had so much as a button come off, break or even a fabric tear( tough to do in AZ MX and NV where everything tries to scratch or poke you!!
I have tried most other lines on the past and NOTHING comes even close when it comes to performance in the field. I promise if you try it you won't be dissapointed!!
Greg Krogh
www.mogollonrimoutfitters.com
I have tried most other lines on the past and NOTHING comes even close when it comes to performance in the field. I promise if you try it you won't be dissapointed!!
Greg Krogh
www.mogollonrimoutfitters.com
S
SonoranOutfittersnet
Guest
I have not been wearing the gear as long as Greg has. But I will agree that is hold up, and most of all has a great feel and well designed.
TR
www.sonoranoutfitters.net
TR
www.sonoranoutfitters.net
fatrooster
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 4,187
I have an old pair of 90% pants and love them. This year I bought two pair of Ascent pants and was very happy with the lightweight, breathability and quick drying fabric but was absolutely very disapointed with the pockets with a flap over the top to keep things in. Only one pocket had a zipper and the back pockets are useless with the flap. In my opinion, if you are gonna charge cadillac prices then give me a pocket that will hold stuff! If I had noticed these worthless pockets I would have bought something else. fatrooster.
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
Fatrooster
I agree with you 100% on the pocket issue. You can lay that one right at the feet of the designers and it drives me crazy. Expert users would not have come up with a pocket design like that.
An even better example is the double stacked disco parachute pants pockets on the Stormfront Pants. Adds to the cost and weight. Increases the chances of failure and leakage. Looks horrendous. Positioned badly. And just not user friendly.
I love the miltary gear in this respect because design is almost always driven by practicality and function for field use. There is little or no fashion to it and that is the way I think it should be for these kinds of use.
Thigh cargo pockets on BDU style pants have bellows and secure closing flaps so nothing falls out when you are sitting/squatting. Shell pants don't have back wallet pockets because nobody carries a wallet in the field. You don't need front pocket pool style pockets you need protected slash openings so you can get to whatever you are wearing underneath that might have pockets. BDU style cargo pockets make a lot more sense. If you are going to use a belt with your shell pants then how about getting rid of the frilly little clippy one and give me some belt loops that will take an instructors belt that I can actually tie into and use as a safety harness.
Look at the military APECS Shell Trousers for a good example of how it should be done for hardcore users.
I say again, too many pockets and badley designed pocket sets create too many problems, added weight, increased costs and ruins otherwise great gear.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
I agree with you 100% on the pocket issue. You can lay that one right at the feet of the designers and it drives me crazy. Expert users would not have come up with a pocket design like that.
An even better example is the double stacked disco parachute pants pockets on the Stormfront Pants. Adds to the cost and weight. Increases the chances of failure and leakage. Looks horrendous. Positioned badly. And just not user friendly.
I love the miltary gear in this respect because design is almost always driven by practicality and function for field use. There is little or no fashion to it and that is the way I think it should be for these kinds of use.
Thigh cargo pockets on BDU style pants have bellows and secure closing flaps so nothing falls out when you are sitting/squatting. Shell pants don't have back wallet pockets because nobody carries a wallet in the field. You don't need front pocket pool style pockets you need protected slash openings so you can get to whatever you are wearing underneath that might have pockets. BDU style cargo pockets make a lot more sense. If you are going to use a belt with your shell pants then how about getting rid of the frilly little clippy one and give me some belt loops that will take an instructors belt that I can actually tie into and use as a safety harness.
Look at the military APECS Shell Trousers for a good example of how it should be done for hardcore users.
I say again, too many pockets and badley designed pocket sets create too many problems, added weight, increased costs and ruins otherwise great gear.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
fatrooster
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 4,187
You'd think with the price being what it is that they could give you more than one pocket with a zipper. I guess if they added another zipper it would add another $100.00 to the price. fatrooster.
woodruffhunter
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,696
MT Said:
"i buy the best but even the sitka rainwear says water resistant, ive bought enough stuff to know that water resistant clothing gets you wet.ive looked at the sitka a lot and like the new camoflauge but to me its kind of loud material and cant really see where this stuff is that great.really dont understand wehy mountaneering people wouldnt want water proof."
I was looking at Sitka gear over the weekend and actually had the same question. I understand the previous responses to this question and believe that the gear "has never failed".
However, my impression was water resistant is not "waterproof" as listed on the sitka rain jacket. If it is "waterproof" why is it not listed???
The reason I say this is because I would like to hold off on buying the rain jacket and buy one of their other jackets as
a multi purpose hunting jacket. But, how dry will it keep me??
"i buy the best but even the sitka rainwear says water resistant, ive bought enough stuff to know that water resistant clothing gets you wet.ive looked at the sitka a lot and like the new camoflauge but to me its kind of loud material and cant really see where this stuff is that great.really dont understand wehy mountaneering people wouldnt want water proof."
I was looking at Sitka gear over the weekend and actually had the same question. I understand the previous responses to this question and believe that the gear "has never failed".
However, my impression was water resistant is not "waterproof" as listed on the sitka rain jacket. If it is "waterproof" why is it not listed???
The reason I say this is because I would like to hold off on buying the rain jacket and buy one of their other jackets as
a multi purpose hunting jacket. But, how dry will it keep me??
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
"Waterproof" can mean different things to different users. Without getting too technical defining the term has to do with pressure or the amount of pressure it takes to push water from one side of the fabric/laminate to the other.
The 09 Sitka Gear line uses Gore-Tex in a number of shell jackets/pant sets and they carry the "Guaranteed To Keep You Dry" guarantee. As I said earlier they are designed to protect the wearer from wind and water (precipitation). For purposes of hunting, backpacking, mountaineering, skiing etc they are waterproof but they probably wouldn't stand up to a high pressure fire hose.
Those jackets will keep you dry from rain and snow as long as the exterior water repellant is maintained and the Gore-Tex laminate remains in tact or undamaged.
Does that help?
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
The 09 Sitka Gear line uses Gore-Tex in a number of shell jackets/pant sets and they carry the "Guaranteed To Keep You Dry" guarantee. As I said earlier they are designed to protect the wearer from wind and water (precipitation). For purposes of hunting, backpacking, mountaineering, skiing etc they are waterproof but they probably wouldn't stand up to a high pressure fire hose.
Those jackets will keep you dry from rain and snow as long as the exterior water repellant is maintained and the Gore-Tex laminate remains in tact or undamaged.
Does that help?
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
woodruffhunter
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,696
Yes, it does help. It was in line with what I had hoped it would. I figured it would hold up to rain.
I am looking at the "90%" jacket and figure it would be a good choice for September and October hunting in Utah.
I am looking at the "90%" jacket and figure it would be a good choice for September and October hunting in Utah.
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
The 90% Jacket does not use Gore-Tex and is not waterproof. The fabric is water resistant but the seams are not taped so they leak. Mine do. The 90% Jacket should not be relied on to protect you or your insulation layer(s) from precipitation or strong winds. That is not what it is designed for.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
woodruffhunter
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,696
Looks like I need to do more research.... Thanks again
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
More research is a good idea. My information is correct for the previous years model 90% Jackets and Pants but I am not one hundred percent sure for the 09 line which uses McNetts Melco Tape. I think they just use the Melco tape on the pocket trim not the seams which would still make it vulnerable to leakage at the main seams. So check for sure. If all the seams are Melco taped then it would make for a much more robust garment and good news in my opinion.
So the right question is-are all the seams on the 90% pieces taped?
I will check also.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
So the right question is-are all the seams on the 90% pieces taped?
I will check also.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
I think the stuff is over priced and it ain't that tuff either. I gotta couple pair of ascent pants and a celsius vest. Although I love the ascent pants for warm weather hunting, after 30 days the stitching is coming apart in the seat. Also have developed a hole.
Now this yr I was not hard on these pants because of my bad legs caused by low dose chemo. I wasn't able to do a lot of climbing but did sit a lot and glass. Now I either sit in the dirt or find a smooth rock so where the hole came from I have no idea. Point is I now have a worthless pair of 150 pants that wore out in 30 days. ANY pant would have lasted 30 days for far less money imo.
Was at the store today taking a look at the 90% pants, they're made the same so I doubt they'll last either. They had an old pair of mountain pants, wrong size of course but they are much better built pant. Its to bad you can't get them any more.
my .02
Now this yr I was not hard on these pants because of my bad legs caused by low dose chemo. I wasn't able to do a lot of climbing but did sit a lot and glass. Now I either sit in the dirt or find a smooth rock so where the hole came from I have no idea. Point is I now have a worthless pair of 150 pants that wore out in 30 days. ANY pant would have lasted 30 days for far less money imo.
Was at the store today taking a look at the 90% pants, they're made the same so I doubt they'll last either. They had an old pair of mountain pants, wrong size of course but they are much better built pant. Its to bad you can't get them any more.
my .02
B
BUGLELK
Guest
3blade,
Send them back. They have a 100% warranty against defects...if your pants failed, send them back for a replacement. I know several guys who absolutely abuse the Ascent Pants from Mexico to Alaska, 100+ days per year, and they have had zero issues.
Corey
Send them back. They have a 100% warranty against defects...if your pants failed, send them back for a replacement. I know several guys who absolutely abuse the Ascent Pants from Mexico to Alaska, 100+ days per year, and they have had zero issues.
Corey
R
rradams
Guest
IMHO the 90% pants are quite a bit more robust than the Ascent pants. I have a pair of the old Mountain Pants, 90%, and Ascent and of the 3 I think the 90% is the most durable. The only down side is they are warm for early season and don't stretch as much as the Ascent.
H
HardcoreOutdoor
Guest
woodruff hunter
Sorry for the delayed response. The 09 Sitka 90% Jacket does not have taped seams. The Melco Tape is used only on the Napoleon chest pockets for trim.
That means that the jacket uses a water resistant fabric but is still vulnerable to leakage at the seams.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
Sorry for the delayed response. The 09 Sitka 90% Jacket does not have taped seams. The Melco Tape is used only on the Napoleon chest pockets for trim.
That means that the jacket uses a water resistant fabric but is still vulnerable to leakage at the seams.
Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
>3blade,
>
>Send them back. They have a
>100% warranty against defects...if your
>pants failed, send them back
>for a replacement. I know
>several guys who absolutely abuse
>the Ascent Pants from Mexico
>to Alaska, 100+ days per
>year, and they have had
>zero issues.
>
>Corey
Corey, I wish that was true but it is not. They say they will repair the pants for a fee. Sent me a warranty form on which they want my credit card info for the repair. I think I'll just run them through the sewing machine myself, f it.
What gets me is these are 2008 pants and I also have a 2009 pair. The 09 is double stitched the 08 is not. They told me theres no damn difference. Both my wife and I have come to the conclusion we must be blind then.
Live an learn, live and learn.
>
>Send them back. They have a
>100% warranty against defects...if your
>pants failed, send them back
>for a replacement. I know
>several guys who absolutely abuse
>the Ascent Pants from Mexico
>to Alaska, 100+ days per
>year, and they have had
>zero issues.
>
>Corey
Corey, I wish that was true but it is not. They say they will repair the pants for a fee. Sent me a warranty form on which they want my credit card info for the repair. I think I'll just run them through the sewing machine myself, f it.
What gets me is these are 2008 pants and I also have a 2009 pair. The 09 is double stitched the 08 is not. They told me theres no damn difference. Both my wife and I have come to the conclusion we must be blind then.
Live an learn, live and learn.
J
jpine
Guest
I've got to say Wade, you've done the most objective review on equipment or clothing I've listened to or read in quite some time. What's it worth to stay dry and quiet for a year or two, a lot to me if I'm spending $2k to $4k to hunt two or three times a year each hunt for one week stretches out West coming from the Mid-West. Cash is always an issue for all of us, it is a matter of perspective...thanks for your work and reviews, very beneficial in my opinion as we've all been waiting for a quiet water proof shell!
H
