Crossbows

adamsoa

Active Member
Messages
704
I want to add crossbows to the list of legal weapons for all Utah hunters. I have a smaller framed daughter that isn't able to pull a bow back yet (at 13) and I'd love to take her on the bow hunt with me. I also have a dad who is older and couldn't pull back a bow that I'd like to take some time.

Archery has a lower success rate than other hunts. There are currently 21 states that allow crossbows to be used during archery season. There are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of crossbow hunters and so far in all of the states that allow crossbow to be used during archery season, and they have almost exactly the same success rate. The distances shot are pretty much the same too.

There are myths that crossbows are so much better than other archery equipment. In the hundreds of thousands of hunters it hasn't shown true.

I spoke to the Wyoming DWR and asked them for info about crossbows. They average around 12-17 percent of archers that hunt with crossbows. They have stopped keeping statistics in the differences because they found no difference in the success rates of the two weapons over the last 20 years.

There was a question asked about if you could only hunt with bows but hunt every year would you do it. I think that if you are trying to pull more people into the archery hunts it would be better to be more inclusive and more attractive to people who don't bow hunt. Give the guys who aren't interested in bows a reason to try archery.

Archers get the better longer seasons. I think that is a good thing because they are much less effective. Crossbows fall into this same category.

I like to archery hunt. I've shot a bow for a lot of years. My shoulders are getting worse and I think a crossbow would be a great way to keep archery hunting.

Crossbows are a great limited range weapon. They are hard enough to ##### so that another shot is pretty much not going to happen. You also have to unload and rest them every 4 hours or so for a half an hour. You don't have to draw with the animal watching but you still have to move a wide horizontal crossbow around to get on the animal. At under 50 yards they are going to be catching almost any movement.

I have a lot of friends who don't want to bow hunt because they don't want to shoot a bow. They would give it a try if they had a crossbow.
I think that archery is a great way to hunt with less impact than other methods. Its not for everyone but the numbers say that it is less successful so less deer are killed = more hunting opportunity.

Most bow hunters wont choose to hunt with a crossbow, they are hunting how they want to hunt. But for youth, older hunters, and those who don't want to pick up a bow, this is a great way to get them into archery. It would also make a more valid reason to have more archery tags.

I don't understand why they aren't legal for a lot of hunts right now anyway, such as:

Turkey Hunt: You can use a bow or shotgun. Why not a crossbow? It isn't more effective than either of these.

Bear Hunt: There aren't dedicated archery tags. If you can use a bow over bait why not a crossbow.

Cougar hunt: Why not?

Once in a life time hunts: These are any weapon hunts?excluding crossbows? If I can use any gun why not a crossbow?

Antelope: Most archery antelope hunting is done from a blind. There isn't any real difference here.

Elk hunt: There are unlimited archery tags and a lot of general any bull and spike tags. Its another archery weapon, with limited range.

Deer: It would be great to move more hunters into a weapon that has a limited range, is a single shot and is PROVEN BY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CROSSBOW HUNTERS TO BE NO MORE EFFECTIVE THAN OTHER ARCHERY EQUIPMENT.


Anyway these are a few of the thoughts I've had.
Andy




respect my authorita
 
Every year my shoulder gets worse-----and I have looked into the x-bows.......not for Utah but for other states that have them legal.

Other than being heavy MO-FO's....and way pricey.....I have really considered purchasing one.

Althought I am anal about blowing a big wad of $$$ on something I won't use but maybe once a year........so I haven't bought one yet.

I am on the fence on making them legal in Utah-----no big deal if they do but it sure would be nice to have that option too...

Robb
 
I am surprised that the crossbow is not legal under any circumstance in Utah. I think it should be legal to use on rifle hunts or any weapon hunts. I stop short of saying it should be legal for bow only season. They just made it legal in Texas for bow season, and I was against that move even though I own a crossbow.

Someone too young to pull a bow back? Give them a couple of years and they will be able to. Allowing crossbows just lowers the age for shooting a bow to anyone old enough to pull the trigger.

Someone too old to pull a bow back or is disabled? Even before they made the new law in Texas, they allowed someone who could not physically pull a bow back to get a crossbow permit if they submitted a doctors statement as to the disability. That works for me.

Bottom line though is I shouldn't have a say in what you decide in Utah. I don't live there and residents such as yourself are the ones who make that call.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Your comments are well thought out and well researched. I'm from Wyoming, and I did carry one around one hunt, a while back. Crossbows are kind of a pain when it comes to carrying, sneaking around, transporting on a horse, etc. They do cut down the time needed for practice involving accuracy. That can be debated as to good points and bad points. Overall, if we really do want to increase the numbers of hunters in the field, in order to preserve the sport, crossbow introduction will probably do that. I think some of us secretly like to see hunter numbers go down, which helps increase the chance of drawing a tag.
 
You can get a crossbow permit if you can prove you are incapable of shooting a bow. The incapable proof part is a high level. But if you have that you can use them on the archery hunt.
As for the youth, by friend has large sons that can easily pull back a 45 lb bow at 12, the legal age in UT. Why should smaller girls or boys have to wait because they are smaller?

For me its a success thing. The crossbows have proven in large numbers to be more more successful than bows.



respect my authorita
 
Not going to take the bait a second time! lol

They are already legal to those who truly need them. I think they SHOULD be legal on turkey and any legal weapon hunts for sure.

In Utah we don't need thousands more archery hunters unless you can get thousands more tags. Deer already sells out in the 1st choice draw.

Shift tag allocations and I think I would change my vote.

All we need is more guy's road hunting with a cocked and loaded crossbow on the hood of their jeep as I have seen several times in southern Utah.
 
Thanks for the response. Was definately not trying to bait you.
i appreciate your thoughts on turkeys and the others. I also understand your thoughts on deer, but how about elk?

With any archery tackle the success rate on general elk is very low. Tags for archery are unlimited. The any weapon general tags don't really sell out until the end if at all.

There would be a few more hunters after the elk during the archery season but with the low success rates it wouldn't be a big deal. It might take a little more stress off of the any weapons hunts.


respect my authorita
 
Here fishy fishy fishy!!!

I'm all for crossbows as long as they are kept seperate from archery season dates and permit allocations.

Add them to the Any Weapon pool and lets rock and roll!!!

Spit the hook and swim away






2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
I'm all for crossbows as long as it is in rifle season only. We don't need more people out blowing bugles during archery season in Colorado.
 
I am mixed on use of crossbows. I think they are great for guys that have conditions that make using a regular bow and arrow difficult for them. I have never hunted with them since I have be very lucky to not have any that limits me from not using compound archery equipment. I think they should be used in gun season hunts, once in a lifetime hunts that aren't weapons specific, and hunts for impaired hunts. If the hunter is impaired (joint issues, eye sight issues to where they need optics for sighting, or other impairments) then and only then should q crossbow for general archery season. That is my opinion, but I had an uncle who had to after close to 30 years of shooting a bow right handed, his eye sight failed in his right eye. Rather than picking up a crossbow, he switched hands and started shooting left handed. Granted he had to stop shooting 70+ pounds of draw weight but he is the best archer I ever saw in the flesh and he was probably the only person inknow who could have pulled it off. So I will keep shooting a bow and arrow until I can't then evaluate the situation. Hopefully bowhunting and hunting all together at the same time.
WVBOWAK
 
I don't see where there would be a problem in making them legal to use during the Archery season for Elk because they are an unlimited tag allotment and you wouldn't be "taking" any tags away from Archers. Also make them legal to use during the any weapon hunts. I think that should also apply to Turkey where the tags are unlimited and over the counter. Just my opinion.
 
>I don't see where there would
>be a problem in making
>them legal to use during
>the Archery season for Elk
>because they are an unlimited
>tag allotment and you wouldn't
>be "taking" any tags away
>from Archers. Also make them
>legal to use during the
>any weapon hunts. I
>think that should also apply
>to Turkey where the tags
>are unlimited and over the
>counter. Just my opinion.
>

It is not that they are taking away any tags. It is that there would probably be MORE hunters in the woods than there already are during bow season. Not sure that is a good thing.


txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
>As for the youth, my friend
>has large sons that can
>easily pull back a 45
>lb bow at 12, the
>legal age in UT.
>Why should smaller girls or
>boys have to wait because
>they are smaller?
>

There are plenty of hunting opportunities for smaller 12 year olds without a crossbow. And to be honest, there are probably only 1 in 10 twelve year olds that should be allowed to hunt with a regular bow even if they can. Most 12 year old kids don't have the maturity to pull it off with a bow. Too much room for error and scarring a young hunter. But there are certainly 12 year olds who are capable of it too.

A regular bow is harder to hunt with than a crossbow, no question about that. That is on purpose.

It is also different in Texas where there is no legal hunting age. Any 6 year old that can pull a trigger can hunt here!



txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
I really would like to save what shoulder action I currently have by using an x-bow NOW before I am so bad off that I am 'legal' under the current rules in Utah to use an x-bow...

I see NO tag allocation lost during bow deer or bow elk---Gen tags or LE tags-- hunting seasons from making x-bows legal in Utah as the amount of tags are set before hand.....????

Plus with everything changing next year with the Option 2 going into effect.....what tag allocation loss are we taking about???

Maybe you--adam-- should reachout to the Retailers----Cabela's/Sportsman Warehouse/Jakes/ and so forth for the needed $$$$$$$$$ support or lobbying that is ALWAY$ needed in Utah for anything to change....???

Those Retailers would see what-----1000'$ of $$$$ales for x-bows that they currently do not have.......plus bolt $ales/broadhead $ales...acce$orie$ $ales...add in the tax revenue.....benefit...

Geezzzz am I talking about the Expo or x-bows....???

It is ALL about the $$$$$ fella's.....in Utardville....

Robb

PS----is there an x-bow for bow-fishing?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-02-11 AT 07:35PM (MST)[p]i would personally say yes o crossbow if it was during the muzzeloader or any weapon. i do not think its fair to have them cocked and loaded during the archery season so i would say no to that.

archery season- heck no!
muzzleoader- yes acceptable
any weapon- yes acceptable

i would put crossbows in the same category as muzz. one shot, locked and loaded, close range weapon. i dont think its fair to be an archery hunt, solely because you dont have to make the motion to draw back which is one of the hardest things to do undetected with a bow
 
Ox,

How much of a difference do you think having a cocked crossbow makes? I'm not trying to be an a$$, but I wanted to ask the question.

This is a pretty common statement to keep crossbows out of the archery hunt. But I havent found any evidence to support that theory.

There are several hundred thousand crossbow hunters hunting in 21 states that hunt the same season as the verticle bow guys. Their success rates are vitually identical across the board.

If there were great advantages of crossbows over vertical bows, with that many hunters in that many states there would be some large discrepencies in success rates.

But so far there are no real differences between the two. Having the crossbow cocked might seem like a huge advantage, but the success rates don't support it.


respect my authorita
 
A crossbow has many advantages over a vertical bow in accuracy without practice and ease of becoming proficient at longer ranges as well as quicker target acquisition. The motion of drawing versus raising a crossbow may be debatable but I believe the crossbow has an advantage there as well although not as evident as others.

The reason most archers have a problem with crossbows in archery seasons is the same as the reason most crossbow hunters don't want to be placed in a general or muzz season. They are at a disadvantage.

Existing law provides for most people incapable of shooting a bow to hunt with a crossbow. I have not seen many kids of hunting age who honestly cannot work their way up in weight on a vertical bow to a poundage that is legal to hunt with. In fact I have not seen any kid who can't personally. That is not to say they do not exist. Most kids and adults for that matter give up too easy and are not willing to work but that doesn't mean we need to give them an out we just need to encourage them to succeed and help them.

When they are capable of hunting with true archery equipment they will thank you both for helping them get there but also for preserving archery season for them in a way it was meant to be.

JMHO

Bill

Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
 
The crossgun is a viable weapon and should be allowed in certain seasons, as it has proven it's efficiency.....just NOT in the archery season since it is not a bow and arrow. It's a shoulder fired weapon complete with forestock, rifle butt, scope ability, and is cocked and locked for it's delivery system. They are better suited in a primitive season, or general rifle season, with the only exception to those who have a disability permit.

It has nothing to do with "success rates".....it's simply not a bow and arrow by definition. I imagine the "success rate" for a flintlock is not higher either, do you think they should be allowed in the ARCHERY only season too? Just something to think about.

BOHNTR )))---------->
 
I really don't want to get into a pissing match with bow hunters. They love their bows and I'm not going to convince them otherwise.

I understand that there is some trepidation on their part about adding other hunters to their season. I want to look at a way to have more hunters switch to a less effective method giving more hunters oppertunity.

In the last 10 years crossbow growth has gone from 3 states to 21. I spite of the sky is falling predictions it hasn't.

We could debate all day which we think is easier. Many seem to think crossbows are the easiest thing in the world to shoot well. They think anyone can pick them up and shoot well at any distance with no practice.
They are harder to shoot than they look.

Archery is a close in game. It takes skill to get in close enough to animals.

I understand that some dedicated bow guys feel threatened an will go to great lengths to let me know that crossbows are an abomination that have too much advantage over compounds. I used to have the same opinion.

The proof isn't there to back it up. There is a ton of research out about the effectiveness of crossbows. Guys in 21 states had these same fears. I've been researching everything I can find on the subject. There isn't any real differences in the harvest statistics.

Crossbows are too effective, bad, and intimidating and don't belong in our archery season is an opinion but not a fact.
The fact is that its already proven they aren't any more effective than verticle bows.
It shouldn't matter how you hold your bow. The harvest is the same.

respect my authorita
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-11 AT 08:24AM (MST)[p]Bohntr,

I really do hate these arguments. But I'm off to day so I'll bite.
The crossbow shoots an arrow and is limited to the arrow performance. It uses a string --some use a recurve design, some compound. Its a bow turned sideways and mounted to a stock. It uses the same method to propel an arrow.

I'm not proposing for telescopic sites to be included.

You really can't argue the success rates. It isn't any better than a good compound.

Why do bow hunters deserve a month long season, with a 3+ month long season in some areas of Utah just bacause they shoot a bow? Its no different than a crossow in success.
If you really want to hit the primitive argument take both compount bows and crossbows out of the true archery season. Their technology is similar... leave the recurve, long bow guys shooting cedar arrows and flint heads the regular archery hunt.

respect my authorita
 
I'm not at all against crossbows, but I can't fathom them being equally as ineffective as a compound bow. Where's some of your research in these other 21 states, I would be interested to see some of those facts.
 
The North American Crossbow Federation has a presentation on their site. It lists the states that allow crossbows, numbers of hunters and success rates. It is copied and pasted from states Dwr web sites.

I took their information and then went to the websites myself to verify. I also called many of the different dwr's.
The closest--Wyoming stated that they no longer keep different statistics. They have allowed crossbows for the last 20 years. In all of that time they saw no real difference in the two so they stopped differentiation between them.

respect my authorita
 
What isnt being considered here is the true intent of bow hunting...not crossgun hunting.

When most states adopted an archery season, the intent was not to create another season that EVERYONE was going to be able to participate in. The typical archery hunter is usually a person that has done a fair bit of rifle hunting and is now looking for a higher challenge.

The excuse of hunter recruitment is a joke...you dont recruit hunters by lowering the standards of bowhunting by allowing a crossgun. You dont look for hunter recruitment through bowhunting, rather bowhunting is largely the final step in the progression of a skilled hunter.

Further, I disagree with allowing a crossgun for any archery season for any reason, including a disability. If you're disabled, hunt with a rifle, its that simple. If you cant pull back a legal bow at 12, then you have to wait until you can. You either cut it or you dont. If I cant hit the ball out of Fenway, I dont expect them to move the fences in so I can.

As far as hunter recruitment is concerned, there is more opportunity for youth hunters now than there ever has been. Inexpensive tags throughout the West for a variety of game with 100% draw odds. If you cant get a young hunter fired up about hunting with all these opportunities, I can assure you allowing a crossgun during archery season wont do it either.

Further, there will be more animals killed during the archery seasons if crossguns are allowed, simply because you will have many times more hunters in the field. While that may not matter when it comes to hunting whitetails in Alabama, its putting a lot more pressure on thin herds of mule deer and elk in the West. The response will be shorter and shorter archery seasons with the inevitable harvest increases if you allow crossguns during archery seasons.

Finally, the real culprit driving this crossgun bullchit is $$$$. The industry realizes that if they get crossguns legalized for archery seasons they have more to gain. They dont care about the resource, they dont care about the impact to the resource, they dont care about hunter recruitment, they ONLY care about the bottom line.

Dont be fooled by this crap and keep archery what it was intended to be. Hunting is morphing into a monster that I'm not real proud of, driven by ME, ME, ME and $$$$.

Check the posts by Adamsoa for proof: "Why do bow hunters deserve a month long season, with a 3+ month long season in some areas of Utah just bacause they shoot a bow?"

A joke...and a sad one at that.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-11 AT 09:36AM (MST)[p]>Dont be fooled by this crap
>and keep archery what it
>was intended to be. Hunting
>is morphing into a monster
>that I'm not real proud
>of, driven by ME, ME,
>ME and $$$$.
>
>Check the posts by Adamsoa for
>proof: "Why do bow hunters
>deserve a month long season,
>with a 3+ month long
>season in some areas of
>Utah just bacause they shoot
>a bow?"
>
>A joke...and a sad one at
>that.

+1.....spot on as usual Buzz!

Adamosa:

First off, the crossgun does not shoot an arrow....it called a bolt. Secondly, while you try to justify that it's simply a horizontal bow attached to a stock (some with a pistol grip attached), you're forgetting the most crucial component......it is also locked into position and never hand drawn and held. Objectively speaking, do you REALLY feel there's no difference?

Is the crossgun a limited range weapon? Absolutely. Is a flintlock a limited range weapon? Yes. Do I own a crossgun? Yes. Is a bow and arrow? Not even close.

If one wants to hunt with a crossgun, I'm all for it......just make sure it's in the appropriate season, which in my humble opinion, is not the ARCHERY only season.

Lastly, archery seems to have become more about instant "success" than about the method and reason why one chosses a bow nowadays. Extreme range shooting, electronic components attached to bows, etc.......I'm afraid that it will be the demise of archery only seasons altogther if it continues. Remember, it's not suppose to be easy folks.....that's what makes it fun and challenging. JMO

Good luck to you and I hope you're able to find a suitable weapon system for your kids to enjoy the outdoors.


BOHNTR )))---------->
 
Buzz, did I touch a nerve? I was looking for some CIVIL conversation and debate about something I'm pasionate about.

Seems like I just succeded in pissing you off.

Are you typing down in your mothers basement with a tinfoil hat????

First of all read my posts and those around them before you start to take things out of context.
When I asked about the season dates I was refering to bohntrs post where he stated crossbows dont belong in archery season for any reason.

I have a lot of friends and family who dont bow hunt and they ask me that question all of the time. Hard to tell them that bow hunters deserve the extra time but similar weapons dont.

I've been a bow hunter for over 25 years. I love it. My shoulders are getting pretty shot. Bow hunting isnt great for your shoulders either. I want to still enjoy the hunt that I've done for most of my life--but not at the expense of my shoulder.

I am in no way compensated by the crossbow industry or anyone else in my endevor. I have no idea where you came up with that one. I am also not motivated by $$$ in this proposal.

I just think its the right thing to do.

If you want to present a valid argument to keep archery for what it was intedned to be get rid of the compounds and go long bow or recurve only. No single pin sites, carbon or alum arrows, range finders, hand held releases, wheeles on your bows, etc.

And I agree with your ME ME ME statement. You want the archery hunt to only be for YOU, YOU, YOU.

Its great that you think that disabled, younger hunters and older hunters dont belong in YOUR sport. Only people who fit YOUR mold should be allowed to hunt.

Whats next? Only Blonde haired and Blue eyed people should be allowed to hunt on YOUR hunt???

I understand that there are different opinions, and everyone is intitled to theirs. I think thats a stupid argument and discriminatory. But it is your opinion so have at it.



respect my authorita
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-11 AT 09:50AM (MST)[p]BOHNTR,

Thanks for your reply and I respect your opinion.

I've been doing tons of research and shooting crossbows. Personally I dont see any difference between the two. I know there is a lot of hatred for them but after really looking at them I dont understand it.

However, if I knew I could get this much of a reaction from Buzz I'd have brought this up earlier. :)



respect my authorita
 
Adamsoa,

Listen to yourself and read your posts.

You're jealous of archery hunters having a 1-3 month season...you said it, I didnt.

Its too bad about your lame shoulders...but I will not advocate for cheapening the sport just so you can play by allowing you, or anyone else, the use of a crossgun. Sorry. Its too bad not everyone can partipate, but, its just the way the cookie crumbles.

Using your logic, when I get old and cant hike as well, should I be allowed to take an ATV into closed areas so I can still participate? Should I demand a road be built to my favorite spots so I can still get there? Should we allow fat people to hunt mule deer on winter range in December so they have a better chance at a trophy buck? Where does it end?

The answer lies in the fact that sacrificing a personal agenda/cirumstance for the betterment of the sport/wildlife HAS to happen if we want to maintain half of the many opportunities we have now. Its in the best interest of the wildlife, the sport, and future generations, no two ways about it.

You're the one being selfish and you arent even considering the impacts that thousands of additional crossgun hunters will have on the resource if allowed during archery seasons.

All you keep squawking about is how the success rate is "similar"...BFD. So you understand...if you have 17% success and theres 5000 people participating, thats 850 animals. If participation doubles by allowing crossguns that an additional 850 animals. Something has to give.

Can the deer populations that everyone whines about in Utah really handle that kind of additional pressure?

I dont think it can.

I'm in the same camp as bohuntr and a few others...if you want to use a crossgun...then fine, use them in the general GUN seasons.
 
Adam,

There are some major fallacies within your initial premise. I'll focus on WY crossbow laws as you used that example. Almost all legal hunting crossbows have a draw weight of 125-150 pounds, sometimes even more. WY law requires the hunter to draw this load by hand, without mechanical assist devices. Your example of the 12 year old small child who isn't strong enough to draw a regular bow certainly won't have the strenth to load a cross bow. These folks are already eliminated from WY crossbow seasons.
I bought a crossbow for my college age son to use in WY a few years ago. I've shot the bow myself, but never hunted with it, although I accompanied my son. Having become acquainted with them, I have no interest in using one myself. If I was truly disabled, I might, but that is already covered under existing regulations. My son did shoot a 4x5 elk with his crossbow at 25 yards. It was effective.
Harvest statistics are quite deceptive. Every person I know who elected to use a crossbow over a regular bow did so as a short-cut to becoming relatively proficient with a bow. (My son included.) Bows do require a certain level of practice to achieve proficiency. While exceptions are always available, a group of hunters who choose the short-cut route in their equipment proficiency probably are no more dedicated to learning to hunt effectively. Those who take short-cuts often try to take short-cuts in other areas as well. Archery hunting (real archery) is challenging on multiple levels, and the dedication to master so many of these skills is what makes archery hunting the low success proposition it always will be.

I have a gun hunting friend who was always jealous of my archery success in WY. He decided to buy an X-bow so he could hunt with me in WY and get an "easy" elk. While he is a very successful rifle hunter, he never even considered the skills required to archery hunt. He basically ran around the woods spooking game and being generally obnoxious, complaining that he wasn't being successful even though he spent big bucks on a crossbow. It is this behavior that keeps x-bow success in line with regular archery gear, not the "equivalncy" of the equipment.

I have no problem with cross bows in areas where population control in the primary objective. In the more urban east, they are an effective tool and I have no problem with those who use them to thin the whitetails, etc. There is no need for a crossbow season in UT, or most other western states, unless restricted to urban areas. Those who put in the time, commitment, and dedication to hunt properly with archery equipment are not very interested in having a bunch of clueless crossbow hunters running around the mountains. As was said early, archery hunting is often the pentultimate step in hunter development, and their is no shortcut to the journey to get there.

Bill
 
Bill,

Thats where you and I differ in opinions. I understand that some use it as a percieved shortcut.

What it sounds like you are stating is that crossbow hunters dont deserve to hunt in the woods with you because they dont meet your percieved "good hunter" ability.

I dont think thats true. There are A LOT of archers who pick up the latest compound a week or two before the hunt and stumble around in the woods being obnoxious and loud. You cant base it on someones pervieved level of ability unless you have some sort or competency level that can be tested.

I've bow hunted for years. I consider myself to be a good hunter. I want to pick up a crossbow because of shoulder issues. Does that make me a shortcut hunter? Does that suddenly make my hunting ability and skills any less than they were before?

Most bow hunters dont want crossbows included because they dont want to compete with more hunters during THEIR hunt.

I started this thread because I want to give more oppertinity for hunters to move into the archery hunt.

Archery have the best seasons and the best time of year to hunt IMHO. I know that bow hunters are pretty protective of their season and dates.

The archery hunt shouldnt have more days and longer seasons just because of a percieved metaphysical coolness factor. It should be because they are less effective period.

I have one more question for you Bill,
We keep talking about deer, what about Turkeys, Elk, OIL, Bear, Cougar and Antelope? If you disagree with these please tell me why. Most of them you can use a gun on during the same hunt.

respect my authorita
 
Buzz,

Its not like they are suddenly going to give 5000 more crossbow tags.

You state the I'm just jealous of your season....
You state that if you cant hunt with a bow to bad thats just how the cookie crumbles.
You talk about sacraficing personal adgenda.

Got it. But let me ask you a question. Why do you feel bow hunters deserve a better and longer season?

What is the resaon that they deserve a better deal than all of the other hunters? Bow hunters are by far the minority of the hunters.

Shouldnt bow hunters be willing to sacrafice for the good of the herds and take a much shorter season just like the other hunters, because just like YOU said we shouldnt be selfish.

****I dont agree with that last part but it was inline with your argument.



respect my authorita
 
adam the motion it takes to draw the bow back is often the part that blows the stalk. your cross gun cocked and loaded like a muzzeloader is. your basically shooting a rifle with low ballistics. i have to raise my bow draw back find my pin then shoot. heck of a lot more motion than lifting your cross gun up to your shoulder.

i have no probs with cross guns in a muzz or rifle season.
just not archery.

recurve/compound.. both one shot have to be raised and DRAWN

muzz/xgun both one shot, slow reload, COCKED AND LOADED

adam if you cant see the differences in drawing back and not drawing back than i am sorry it seems pretty obvious.
 
Adam I knew the argument would eventually come around to "why do you deserve to have more just because you hunt with a bow"?

Well why do we deserve to have less to accommodate something
that ain't a bow to begin with. I've avoided comparing success rates and all of the other typical B.S. facts that can be spun to provide whatever outcome would support your respective opinion.

Legally crossguns are not defined a archery equipment in the State of Utah for across the board use. I would oppose any attempt to have the definition changed to include them in archery seasons. We don't have a recruitment problem with bowhunting. I know bowhunters that didn't draw their first choice archery tags
this year as well as last. We don't need them to have the ability
to sell more bow tags. Bad Argument.

Like I have told you several times, propose your won hunt dates and permit allocations and I'll be more than happy to help you gain opportunity.

Leave Bowhunters out of it.






2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
Ox,
I understand what you're saying. The statistics show that it really doesn't matter in harvesting an animal. If it made a big difference crossbows would have a notably higher success rate.

Crossbows still have to pull up can find the pin or the mark and shoot.

Anyway I get it I'm not going to convince you. I'm still going to look for other guys there open minded to this proposal and work on it.



respect my authorita
 
Gordy
I understand how bou feels on this subject. I get that bow hunters are concerned about tag numbers. I didn't post this on the archery forum because I know some bowhunters are threatened by and don't agree with this. I wanted to avoid pissing contest.
I'm more interested in finding out what guys who arent the use my bow or nothing else crowd think.

I'm starting to think that might not happen with this post. I want to find some more guys like me with shoulder issues small kids etc who still want to be able to enjoy the archery hunt. Or guys curious about the archery hunt Who don't feel comfortable with or want to use a bow.
I understand that you're passionate and I respect that, I also have a great deal of respect 4 all you do for hunting in utah. I hope you understand that I'm pretty passionate about this too and I'll still probably drive you nuts with this subject for some time to come.

And contrary to popular belief my name is Andy Adamson.
Adamsoa was a user name I was assigned in the military. It was unique so I've kept it.

Anyway, have a good one

Andy
Respect my authorita
 
So, I've thought a ton about it. I read through that site you mentioned, even did a little research beyond that. There's part of me that is okay with it, but really only for people that truly need it. That however is a fine line in my opinion. There so many avenue's of getting a tag here in Utah that doesn't restrict anyone to the archery tag. Now it's a different story if you prefer archery to the others, because now you moved off that need basis to a want basis, which I don't agree with. So many of those states which allow crossbows, do so because the majority of hunting grounds are in urban areas. For places like this it's now back the the "need" basis. Utah doesn't have many area's where you're required to use a bow. That's one point I can't justify.

The other is what drives me to love archery in the first place. That's the challenge of it (among other things of course :p). That challenge doesn't start when you get out in the field, but is a continuous process. I spend a couple hours a week almost all year long just honing my skills with the bow, and keeping a hold of those shooing muscles. That's something I'd loose out on with a crossbow. And that's something I love to do. And yes I could keep doing it, but it would loose it's luster for me if there were people that were using crossbows. That's just me, but I've thought hard about it. I just don't see it having a place within the archer hunt.
 
> I'm starting to think that
>might not happen with this
>post. I want to
>find some more guys like
>me with shoulder issues small
>kids etc who still want
>to be able to enjoy
>the archery hunt. Or guys
>curious about the archery hunt
>Who don't feel comfortable with
>or want to use a
>bow.

I can understand letting older people with physical problems use them, but I do not agree with letting younger kids use them or like you said in the post above how some people that are interested in archery season don't want to use a bow. I think that if you are interested in archery hunting you should automatically expect to use a bow. Also any average kid should be able to shoot a legal 40lb. bow. I bought my first bow when I was twelve, and I had it set at 56 lbs. I shot enough through the summer that I could get six arrows within a 6" circle at 40 yards. The constant shooting made me a lot stronger and I bumped my bow up to 70 lbs. the next year, and the draw weight was definately not too much. I am now 14 and I can shoot 70 lbs. easy and I can have my all my arrows almost touching at 40 yards. So what I am getting at is that almost any young kid should be able to pull back 40 lbs easy with a little practice. If they are not willing to put in the effort to be able to shoot a legal bow, they should not be able to bow hunt.
 
Andy,

You refuse to discuss the main point. Kids cannot draw a crossbow of 150 pounds draw weight by themselves, nor can most physically challenged / older hunters. The law in WY and other states prohibit any mechanical cocking / assist devices. Even these states require a certain physical ability to participate. Truly disabled individuals operate under a different set of rules. No problem with that.
There is no need for crossbow in elk season or OIL seassons. I couldn't care less about turkeys or even cats, and I don't think you really do either. It is just a straw man to get a foot in the door.
Big game hunts in Utah should relegate crossbows to "any weapon" seasons. Before long someone will be using your same arguements to claim there is no reason to exclulde .50 BMG's or howitzers from OIL or LE hunts. After all, you aren't going to issue more tags, right? Give me a break. This is a solution in search of a problem. There is no need for any changes.

Bill
 
Well, if nothing else is accomplished from this post, now you compound bow guys know how the traditional long bow guys feel about your crap. About the same as a compound guy feels towards a cross bow. The irony is pretty hard to miss.
4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
This is a c/p right from the archery requirements in the 2011 Wyoming Hunting Booklet:
"A permit is no longer required to be able to use a leverage
gaining device for cocking a crossbow."

I just wanted to put that in here so there is no misinformation about crossbows on this thread. I do some bow hunting here in southern MI where rifles aren't allowed, but I mainly hunt here in upper MI and out in Wyoming with a rifle. Michigan just began allowing everyone to use crossbows during the general archery season in most of the state last year. There were the same arguments as on this thread, but here we have unlimited licenses for both residents and nonresidents with enough deer that it shouldn't cause a problem. I do think that people who want to use them just to cut corners and not have to practice and gain the skill level like using a "real" bow should probably take up knitting. Everything I've heard about them is that it takes very little practice to put the bolts out in a small group even at the maximum hunting distance compared to time required with a long bow or compound. My feeling is that they are not needed to get more people into hunting or to get more people into the field in areas where game populations may already be compromised with the amount of tags that are issued. In those areas I would say that if you want to use a crossbow when you aren't disabled enough to qualify for a disabled permit, then use it during an "any weapon" season.
 
adam i already said i am fine with it joining muzzeloder or any weapon but its more of a gun than a bow in my opinion. it has similar characteristics of a muzz
 
Nice topic CPT. I have a small crossbow that shoots 6" darts. Probably not the one to use for elk but they are lot's of fun. My sister's neighbor sat on the hill close to Hanna with his crossbow waiting for the elusive pisscutter a couple years ago. I say , if you have one with decent ballisitics, why not. I would have a blast with one in the woods.
 
the state i live in allows all types of bows. i shoot a compound and a crossbow. depending on which stand i sit on i use a different bow. im getting older and my shoulder just will not let me hold the bow back to long so i use the xbow sometimes
 

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