Custom Rifle Update - Contour??

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Pre64

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Caliber will be 30-06 A.I. on Rem 700 action, Lilja SS barrel, probably 25" (just couldn't resist throwing 180 gr scirrocos at 2900 fps).

Now to decided on a contour. Smithy recommends #6, but that may be a little bulky. Might go #5 and take 8 oz or so off the rifle. Any thoughts?

Thanks
 
Pre64, Glad to hear you're going with that loading. Seems it would be hard to find a better use of a great old case yet put some serious FPE downrange! My thought would be to end up with a rifle that will weight less than 8 lbs w/ scope. After that, they get to be harder to pack and may get left for a lighter packing gun. The only reason i'm not saying even lighter is you obviously are thinking performance, 25" barrel, and the heavier tubes. My Ackley w/25" tube, if to do over again would be made lighter.

The contour issue comes up often yet i must admit not knowing much about it. I know big heavy barrels and i see the thinnest light weight guys but for the life of me, i sometimes get confused by their numbers in relation to what i have bought in the past. A couple years ago i bought a #3 barrel thinking it would be a bit heavier than a factory barrel. It came way heavier. So now when i hear of a #5 barrel, i'm thinking a guy would need a wheelbarrow to pack the thing around. Are contour #'s a constant thing standard between different barrel makers or do each call there own by their own numbers? Appreciate the info!

Joey
 
I just had a 270win built on the same action with a SS Shilen #5 Barrel 24" long.


I'm not sure how Shilen #5 compares to Lilja #5. I wanted a Shilen #4 but the smith talked me into the #5. I said oh well, if a few ounces is all it takes to break me down I've no business hunting anyway! But seriously the #5 felt heavier than I expected but it shoots great. I've gotten used to the #5 but knowing how it feels I don't think I would want a #6 but thats just me.


____________________________________________________________________
"You can recover from a tough hunt, you can't recover from quitting" - Cameron R. Hanes
 
LAST EDITED ON May-06-09 AT 12:40PM (MST)[p]>Pre64, Glad to hear you're
>going with that loading. Seems
>it would be hard to
>find a better use of
>a great old case yet
>put some serious FPE downrange!
>My thought would be to
>end up with a rifle
>that will weight less than
>8 lbs w/ scope. After
>that, they get to be
>harder to pack and may
>get left for a lighter
>packing gun. The only reason
>i'm not saying even lighter
>is you obviously are thinking
>performance, 25" barrel, and the
>heavier tubes. My Ackley w/25"

>tube, if to do over
>again would be made lighter.
>
>
>The contour issue comes up often
>yet i must admit not
>knowing much about it. I
>know big heavy barrels and
>i see the thinnest light
>weight guys but for the
>life of me, i sometimes
>get confused by their numbers
>in relation to what i
>have bought in the past.
>A couple years ago i
>bought a #3 barrel thinking
>it would be a bit
>heavier than a factory barrel.
>It came way heavier. So
>now when i hear of
>a #5 barrel, i'm thinking
>a guy would need a
>wheelbarrow to pack the thing
>around. Are contour #'s a
>constant thing standard between different
>barrel makers or do each
>call there own by their
>own numbers? Appreciate the info!
>
>
>Joey

Joey,
I think they all have different contour #'s
____________________________________________________________________
"You can recover from a tough hunt, you can't recover from quitting" - Cameron R. Hanes
 
AS all contours are different it's hard to have a reference. usually anything larger than a factory contour will generally give you better accuracy. I'm guessing that you may want to carry this gun around a little and will tell you that a 4 or 5 is generally larger and tend to work well. A 4 regular or 5 fluted can actually turn out a naildriver and not be too heavy to lug around. Look at the factory contours (muzzle dimensions) and if you go up 1 or 2 sizes that should give you a pretty fair shooter at a reasonable weight. You can go up 1 more size and flute it and probably do well. Everythings relative when building one lighter barrels are whippy but can shoot with the best of then but a more solid performer can be had with a little more weight over standard. Ultimate accuracy is usually found at the other end of the spectrum as it tends to tame down the harmonics in the barrel somewhat but the offset is weight. Buy a hand lapped match grade barrel it'll shoot better, foul less and usually give you a little better service in the end and you should be happy with any contour you choose. My$.02
 
Tks Boskee et al,
Action will be blueprinted, lapped, match recoil lug and and match reamer, whole 9 yards. I only get one custom rifle, this will be it.
 
Interesting!

My #3 Pac Nor 25" barrel made my Mod 700 ADL weigh over 9lbs once scoped, married, and bedded to the factory stock.

Thanks for the info guys!!

Joey
 
No i don't. Kinda wish i did because of this thread. Like i said above, most of this info is new to me and because of the "mistake" i afterward felt i made with my rifle, i'm cautioning others to not do the same or at least go into it with their eye's wide open.

Like Boskee mentioned above, a #4 might be a good way to go. I certainly can't or wouldn't say what you want, It's all up to what you want really and i do hope that's what you get.

Joey
 
Everyone I know who has a custom gun for hunting goes with a #4. A few of the guys have #4's fluted and they look like they may be just slightly bigger than a factory barrel and they look really nice. I would imagine with the fluting it may be about the same weight as a factory.
 
Pre64,
Same here, my 270 was my first custom & I went the whole Nine yards too, may be the only time I get to do this. Here are some pics of mine with the Shilen #5 barrel, it is a stainless select match barrel, should give you an idea of how it looks in the stock. I went with an HS Precision stock. I don't know what it weighs in at, I haven't weighed it.

HPIM0370.jpg


HPIM0372.jpg


And here is my best 5 shot group so far @ 100 yds. The hole on the lower left diamond was my fouling shot. This is with 140gr Accubonds & RL22 at 3050fps

HPIM0367.jpg


I'm still trying to improve on this group, it sure isn't necessary for a hunting rifle but I get a kick lately out of trying to shoot tiny little holes. :)

____________________________________________________________________
"You can recover from a tough hunt, you can't recover from quitting" - Cameron R. Hanes
 
LAST EDITED ON May-06-09 AT 03:07PM (MST)[p]pre64 here's a little food for thought. Lilja has a calculater on their site that will tell you the exact weight of a barrel at a given length. My .280 McMillan has a muzzle diameter on it at 24" that is .660 and my .300 winny mag McMillan sporter has a measurement of .680 at 24 ". A remington 700 BDL Mag has a .655 at the muzzle to compare. These are both heavier than factory contours and the guns are a nice stable shooting and carrying weight at around 8.5-9.3 lbs scoped. My scope weighs 14 oz.on both. Both of these guns can shoot groups at 300 that most would be happy with at 100 yards. So don't get too hung up on the I have to go heavy to make em shoot idea unless you're primary objective is for ranges over 500 yards. My .300 is more accurate but I like the weight of the .280 and that's the one I always grab. If you're going to build you a custom gun make it something you'll use that way you'll enjoy it more. We built our .30's with 1 in 12 twists if that helps.
 
Thanks cbeard,
You should start hand loading for that Nosler rifle of yours, I'm sure it will do that good or even better with some good hand loaded ammo. It can be time consuming but fun it you've got the time.

____________________________________________________________________
"You can recover from a tough hunt, you can't recover from quitting" - Cameron R. Hanes
 
LAST EDITED ON May-06-09 AT 09:33PM (MST)[p]Leaning toward the #5, which is .70 at the end of the 27" blank. BTW, a penny is .75" in diameter. This is close to a Sako barrel, but a bit less taper and more diameter toward the end.

Thanks for the pics, they are the best reference I've had. Nice lookin rifle.
 
Your action weighs about 30-32ozs, even if you use a McMillan Edge Or a Bansner Sheep hunter at 25-27ozs plus a #5 barrel at 4.5lbs plus.... I'm getting close to 8.5 lbs with bedding and such. Not bashing your project at all, just trying to help sinse you stated you were looking for a 7lb rifle. I would think #3 @ 24" max and an ultralight stock will be needed to achieve your goal weight.

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
 
No bashing taken at all, this is the kind of info I'm looking for? Exactly the kind of info.
 
Pre your gun will come in over what you were looking for at a weight goal. 8-8.5 lbs is close. That's why I posted up what I did. The McMillans are a Rem 700 type action with a Sako extractor, shilen trigger, heavier contoured barrel, aluminum bottom metal in a fiberglass stock with studs and swivels and a recoil pad. The .280 probably weighs in at 7.4lbs bare and the .300 Winny mag is over 8.0 lbs and that's just barrel weight with a slight increase at the muzzle.

To help you with your research, go look at Remingtons site on the 700 it lists out the weights of the guns etc under specs and on some models the muzzle diameter etc. For comparitive purposes look under the custom shop 700KS (i think it's disc.) it's fairly light around 6.3 -7lbs. then look under the XCR stainless and you see the weight creep up a bit to appx 7.4 lbs, then look at a few others with synthetic stocks and then look at their varmint guns and the sendaro. What you want to build given what you selected will weigh slightly less than the sendero. Remington uses a fairly aggressive taper & fluting to keep weight down on some of their models and the pics will help you decide on the barrel & weight. A model 70 action will also add weight. Hope this helps you a bit more.
 
Complete-

Kids are 12 and 15 at the moment....taking up just about every spare minute for me and Mom both. But I have already picked out a spot in my shop and even got one of those super sturdy work tables to put there. One day...one day soon.

:)
 
My kids are 1 and 3! I know what you mean, there's not enough hours in the day!

____________________________________________________________________
"You can recover from a tough hunt, you can't recover from quitting" - Cameron R. Hanes
 
My wife's Strata 300 win mag has a #1 1/2, my Bansner has a fluted #2 and my lightweight 70 300 mag has a #2 and they all shoot under 1". you don't need a heavy barrel to get good accuracy, you need a quality barrel put on perfectly.

I would never go over a #3 unless it was a target or varmint rifle.
 
PRE dude makes some good points on this. Hardway and I & others have been nudging you a bit to think smaller but we don't want to interfere not knowing your full intent and use for the gun. I started 2 sizes below where your smith wanted you to start. If you want a gun around 7 lbs you have to lighten up on you barrel or raise your minimum weight. That's why I sent you to Remingtons site to see how much they weigh. This is always a process and there is a fear of building something you won't like. Steel is steel though and the more you put on it the more it will weigh and the contour pattern can contribute a lot too that. Here's the good news stocks are lighter because the technology for building them has improved. We know we can get lighter barrels to shoot excellent and you've picked out an amazing caliber that will work to build you a shooter. I know you don't want a featherweight and that's not bad thinking but we've got to talk you down in barrel weight to get to your target of 7lbs.

Remington bdl action weighs around 2.5 lbs +/-
Stock will weigh around 2.0 lbs +/- depending on model
Barrel target weight 2.5

This will give you a 7.0 lb. gun . Compared to the Remingtons (on website) you'll save weight in the stock and be able to put it in your barrel. Remember a Remington 700KS custom shop gun with a lighter than stock stock weighs 6lb.6 oz. and it has a lightly contoured barrel. In reality .750 is a huge barrel at the muzzle. My 6mmbr bench rest gun has a .800 at the muzzle and it's alot of barrel. Dude isn't kidding you with a good match grade barrel and a good gunsmith whimpy can shoot with ugly every day of the week. The guns we're talking about will shoot under 1" at 100 yards and for hunting that's perfectly fine. For target or longer range work more weight will buy you something but for hunting it's just more to lug around. I kept trying to nudge you to lighter but that may not be what you want. I think Dude stepped up and dished it out plain and simple.
 
Having never built a rifle before I've never had occasion to add up the numbers. To be sure, I'm no fan of featherweights. I'll take a standard weight any day. My Sako .270 weighs 9.5 unloaded. The website says that's a 7.25 pound rifle (out of the box), I think they may be a little light. This is an ADL so that saves a little.

I think I can up my target weight to 3 to 3.5 lbs.

ANYBODY HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH FLUTING????

Thanks again for help and interest.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-08-09 AT 10:13PM (MST)[p]Pre just to help your visualization a bit more Go to WWW.kreigerbarrels.com and look at their contour chart. It's got some different measurements on how they arrive at their weights at finished length. It may help you a bit.

Fluting if done by the barrelmaker or a gunsmith that really knows how to do it won't effect accuracy. Look at #4 hvy Sporter. That gun will finish bigger than .670 at 25 or 24 inches and that's a stout tube and the one below it #3 will build a very accurate rifle. Lilja barrels are fabulous you may want to call them and talk to Dan and get an idea on the contour and just what they'll flute for you, they can make anything. He'll point you in the right direction without going too heavy and the gun will shoot. One of the issues you run into when building these things is too big of barrel makes you go with a heavier stock because some of the lighter models have slimmer forends and they won't fit. FYI a little more for you to think about. There is a good compromise in there between accuracy and weight and eventually you'll find what you want.
 
Think I'm gonna go with the #5 Lilja. Here'e my thinking; critism welcome.

1. Weight, at 25" according to the lilja info the barrel will weigh 3.82 pounds. add about 4.5 for stock and action this gives me an 8.32 pound rifle. Should be under 10 after rings and scope.
2. A #4 Lilja is roughly the same contour as a 700 factory mag barrel. I think I want a little more barrel than factory.
3. I've got several rifles that blow up milk cartons out to 400 yards. I want one that will blow them up a lot further.
4. Handled a custom 700 with a 25" #4 Hart barrel. It wasn't heavy. According to my math, the #5 lilja will be 5oz. heavier. I don't think that's gonna keep my from makin it up the mountain.
5. If I get a lighter barrel and it won't shoot like I hope, I will be dissapointed.

Any thoughts??
 
OK you asked for input so here's my 2 cents.

It sounds like you want an accurate long range rifle, and you want it heavy. then my question is why that cartridge and why would you want to pack an extra 3 lbs?

It's your gun but this is me talking, first if you want a long range gun in 30 cal it should be a magnum, the cost of the action is not worth going for a non magnum when you consider the total cost of the build. if you insist on using the standard action why not go with a 270, 270 Gibbs, a 280 or a wildcat version in 284 caliber.

Second why pack steel around just for the heck of it? my fluted #2 Lilja in 270 WBY prints a cloverleaf for the first 3 shots so unless you plan on shooting a box of shells at a time I see no use for a heavy barrel in the field. again it's your rifle but if you ever own an accurate flat shooting rifle that weighs in around 7 lbs with a 4X12 scope field ready you'll never want to hunt with a big pig of a rifle again that I can promise you.

What ever you decide you can't go wrong with Lilja, no debate about that. good luck with your project.
 
Excellent questions. I can answer the caliber question. I can get 2900 fps with 180 grain bullets. Plenty of power and it gives me the trajactory I'm looking for. I've no custom rifles with various contours to handle, so the contour question is hard to answer.

Thanks for input.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-17-09 AT 11:42AM (MST)[p]Pre Dude is giving you the straight scoop. Unless you're talking about serious long range work for the most part it's not necessary. If you're going to spend the money for a custom hunting rifle why not make it something you'll use all the time. It's hard to build a rifle for another unless you know exactly what your using it for. To me a great custom hunting rifle is one that shoots great and has enough heft to it to make it easy to shoot in off hand situations yet is portable enough that you want to carry it. The weight calms it down a bit and you don't have to learn to shoot one because it's too light and helps with the recoil. I don't know how old you are or what kind of country you hunt but 9lbs feels like 12 in the mountains and 10 feels closer to 15 after a couple of long days in the field at high elevation. I think a perfect compromise is a gun that weighs in around 7-8 and if you can put a scope on it and wind up at 8.5 or below and it shoots great you win. I've seldom heard of any hunter complaining about his gun being to light but when I was in the gun business we rebarrelled a lot of them that were too heavy. Remember this practically all custom guns will shoot under 1" if done right and that usually doesn't matter how thin the barrel.

Like I said on my original post put a match grade select barrel on it and you'll probably be happy no matter what contour you choose. I'd much rather have a $3000.00 gun I always took with me than one that sat there because it was too heavy. My .280 weighs around 8.3 lbs with a scope on it and it has shot 1 1/2" 5 shot groups at 300 yards so how much more accuracy do I need. But it's not about whats best for me it's what will work for you but you keep coming back about the barrel contour and you can have it all with less especially with a lilja. If you want a target gun I'd be telling you to go heavy, longer shots over 600 yards benefit from a bigger barrel but other wise it's just extra weight and I've got enough of that around my midsection! Fact is you carry all of them way more than you shoot them so why be a pack mule. If it was me I'd drop down a size or two and you'll probably be thrilled.
 
Good points Boskee & Dude. I've always looked at it the same way. Your gonna carry that rifle 99.9% more than you'll ever shoot it. I'm definatley willing to give up a little accuracy for for an easier to carry rifle. I think the jist of it is lighter barrels are just as accurate as heavier ones. The only difference being lighter heats up faster and is harder to hold steady. More practice will take care of one of those, and as far as heat, if you practice you'll only need one shot anyways. If you want a specific built long range gun for bench work and blowing up milk jugs, then the heavy barrel is great, but I fear after the new wears off it'll just be left in the safe when it comes time to pack it around the hills. Heres a group from my kimber montana, not sure of the contour but it measures....22"long, .565 at the muz, and 1.05 at the shank. Just think if I put a #6 on it :)

newpics.jpg



"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
 
>did you do that with the
>4X?

10-4, kinda impressed myself.Best 100yd group to date. I've only put about 40 rounds through it, but groups keep getting tighter as I work with the 4x.

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
 
All this talk of weight made me go get a scale and weigh what I've got now for a reference. The Rem 270 weighs just over 9. The Sako .270 weighs 10. The bull barrel .223 weighs just over 11. These are scoped weights. The heavy .223 was my yote rifle but it was too heavy for a calling rifle. The Sako has gone with me everywhere and the weight has not been a problem. Further, I like that weight for shooting. Now I need to work backwards and get a target weight for the barrel. 10 pounds scoped.

Once again, all the input is appreciated. Thinking a 4 might be better now. At least I'm settled on a caliber.
 
Heavy guns are like fat chicks, you can learn to live with it but you don't have to like it.

Once you've packed a 7 lb rifle for a day the heavy ones will gather dust.
 
I've got hard numbers;
Action, trigger guard, magazine box, spring, 2 lb 6.5 oz.
ADL synthetic stock, 2 lbs, 5 oz.
Leupold, 13 oz.
Rings and Bases, 8oz.

Grand total sans barrel; 6 lbs, one half ounce.

#4 is looking better and better.
 
Aluminum trigger guard and a set of talley rings would shave another 5-6ozs.

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
 
True story, then drop to a #2 barrel and a Bansner or Lone Wolf stock and shave another 1 1/2 to 2 lbs off combined, now you're talking.
 
my 10 pound accumark never bothers me,a McMillan saved me some weight or it would be pushing 11.5. the barrel lenth is a pain tho. and ya i've hunted with light weights also.

we all know the unethical way i hunt! and there is no replacing the big boomer. IMO of course
 
nope, not much of a road hunter. you really are a nancy if you think a 10 pounder is that big of a deal. i know dude, you are always right.
 
Thanks reddog being right all the time is what I strive for.

If you like to pack around an extra 3-4 pounds for no reason knock yourself out, I just don't see the joy in it myself. I got over the idea that only heavy guns were accurate after I bought my second lightweight tack driver, now other than my collector guns all the heavy pigs I owned belong to someone else. it's all good.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-19-09 AT 10:19PM (MST)[p]well dude, in all fairness my 7.5lb 7mm wby may become my favorite rifle, time will tell.

the accumark is an old freind, and i dont make fun of him for being fat, it always gets the job done. it has a new barrel on order, perfect time to put it on a diet. but nope, after some thought, it will get a weatherby accumark contour Lilja. i have light rifles i can use, but dont much.

edit, i also have an 80mm swaro scope and full size tripod in my pack(carbon of course!)most of the time.some times the 15's come along too. we all do things a little different.
 
If everyone wanted the same thing life would be dull. my point is too many people think a lightweight rifle can't shoot as good as a 10 lb pig, I'd be willing to bet 90% of the hunters out there would much prefer a 7 lb tack driver to anything else in their cabinet if they ever tried one.

I don't pack in much anymore I like to leave the road at daylight and get back to it by dark and I travel as light as I possibly can. the first day I did it with a rifle weighing 3 lbs less there was no doubt I would never hunt with anything else again. just me 2 cents .
 

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