DEBATE - dkpeay vs. BigFin

I am sure most people think I am not "qualified" to be in a debate with either of these gentlemen for very different reasons. After all I was merely just a fundraiser that had his 15 minutes of fame and now is fairly irrelevant :)

I think I will stay retired and just comment on here, it is much more entertaining and fun to read EVERYONE'S opinion whether I agree with them or not.

Plus I am pretty sure I can already tell you most of the answers at the debate from one of the participants.

Yes I will just be amused from my little corner of the world while the rest of you take sides and drink koolaid. After all this is just the song that NEVER ends.

ENJOY






Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
I second Steve Brown.

As for Tony, I find it interesting that when Tony simply puts out, what we all already suspect, that SFW started out on one path(the good work of Prop 5), but somewhere along the way lost themselves he has an ax to grind. Unfortunately the "average joes", the guys out doing the projects, the guys left defending THE DON get trashed by all of us who do not like THE DON and his cronies. I am not a member, or have never been a member, but I do recognize that there are lots of members who do great work, however, I would hope that those members recognize that their head is a problem. Any group that talks about "saving hunting for the next generation", then allows THE DON to talk about private ownership of wildlife, or landowners being the managers of said wildlife has a problem. You can't be for the future with increased oppurtunity, then seek to end oppurtunity. You can't preach about the failure of the DWR, then follow that up by taking massive welfare from them. Why is it wrong for Tony to have a money making idea and try to partener with a group(s) he dislikes, but it is OK for SFW to whore themselves to the DWR, whom they believe have failed? Again, you can't speak out of both sides of your mouth.

I am glad for the debate. I believe nothing will come from it. SFW already got their government handout, they have nothing to worry about for a decade. About then they will do a big push to "get us involved" but until then we are all just a bunch of socialist occupy wallstreeters.

Lastly, the only question I want answered by THE DON is the same Tony has asked for years, "what is a large percentage of money?" I believe that to be at least 75% or better, apparently SFW believes differently, so I would like an answer to that.


When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
 
I want to pipe up and say thank you to those who are putting this together and to Randy and Don specifically for agreeing to take time to make this happen. I think we can agree that we are all concerned about the future of Western big game and we're all trying to help - we just have differing opinions on the best way to get it done. Randy and Don are both putting themselves in the public eye for the night, and that's not an easy thing to do, so thanks to both of you. I think it will be very enlightening.

I hope that those of us in attendance will be civil and I look forward to an open discussion on the things that we're getting stuck in our craw.

In regards to our wildlife, I believe that in most cases we're looking at good, better and best (ok, maybe there's some fair and poor in there as well). Perhaps what we're doing is good, but is there a way to do it better? Could we be leveraging our collective assets of time, tags and sportsmen's dollars in a better way to improve our herds?

I know that there is a better way in most scenarios - I just hope we can all agree on it and make the changes that need to be made.

Vi Et Armis Invictus Maneo
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-04-12 AT 04:54PM (MST)[p]hawk eye

Thanks for taking time to put this together

Any and all media are welcome to attend and report the debate. However the same stipulation applies to any media who wants to attend the debate must attend the three hour tour of on the ground projects, fencing of highways, private land issues etc that can be clearly seen in an indisputable manner. Projects are in beaver utah. And will be toured earlier in the day. Since many sportsmen will be working they may still attend the debate for free without attending the tour

Mr Lamb should also attend and then sportsmen can evaluate if he is concerned about solutions to increase abundant game herds or just writing articles about people he has never meet or talked with

Don
 
No problem Mulepacker. (Travis) Thanks for the kind words.

We all love to hunt and have passion to do it. Often on Monster Muleys we don't see others true colors.

I hope this debate will be productive and improve relationships. We all love to hunt and want our kids to have the fun times and memories that we have enjoy chasing critters in the woods.

Lets not be like both parties in congress, fight back and forth and get nothing done. We have too much to loose.

Best of luck in the draws.

Greg
 
Personally I'd like to see Tony included in this
Debate along with Miles Moretti. These men
All have pertinent information concerning the
Expo.

If we are going to pop this zit let's give this
Sumbitch a squeeze all at once.






2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
Wait, Don.

I don't think anybody's arguing SFW has done some great things, including the projects you'd like to show off in Beaver. But do you really think it's necessary to take any media that wants to attend as well as the guy you're debating with on a three hour tour? (queue Gilligan's Island music).

SFW has had many years and many millions of public dollars to make changes in Utah's big game situation. I would hope that there are quite a few of these projects like the one you want to show off in Beaver. Frankly, I don't think there are enough, but I digress.

To put the prerequisite out there that the tour is mandatory in order to attend the debate sounds like the adult equivalent to "I'm going to take my ball and go home." We don't doubt there are some great things to see in Beaver. That's not what is in dispute. I think all of us realize that SFW has done some good things, including the reclamation site in Beaver.

I know this is a real live version of the slide show you made us watch when we met a few years ago up at the U. Again, it was nice, but that's not what we wanted to talk about. We know you've done lots of good things. We know you help wounded soldiers and cancer patients and red headed step children - all noble causes. We know that SFW has spent money for wildlife in places all over the state, including Beaver.

The crux of the issue here is the SFW model of business. It's the politics. It's taking a public resource (the tags) and turning them into millions of dollars that have no strings attached to do with however you please. Taking from the public coffers and privatizing it. That's what we want to talk about. Those are the questions that we'd like answered.

Many of us think that there is a better way, and we don't agree with the precedent SFW has set. It's particularly troubling to see SFW and others attempting the same type of practices in other states that haven't yet been bought and sold.

If you gave me $5M and told me to help wildlife, I bet I could do some pretty neat things with $1M of it. Then when people questioned where the other $4 went, I could show them all of the awesome things I did with the $1M.

So skip the magical mystery tour. At best it's a diversion and a side show to the real issues here. Let's get down to brass tacks and talk about what everyone wants to talk about. If you'd like to show off the Beaver project, bring a handout.

Thanks


Vi Et Armis Invictus Maneo
 
Whats the deal with the tour. Why dont you have it after the debate so theres no showboating beforehand. Sounds like SFW trying to set themselves up to look good for the media or the people who dont know much about the controversies.If you do need to tour,show how much was spent on the projects and how much more you could do with the rest of the money SFW has obtained. Then explain how state wildlife agencies could do the exact same thing without wildlife welfare groups getting involved.
 
Don-

You offered a public debate and Randy accepted your offer. Now, you are insisting that Randy, the moderator and any media participate in a statewide tour of SFW projects as a condition to the debate going forward. I will let Randy and the mediator decide for themselves whether they are willing and have the time to take the SFW tour.

This reminds me of our meeting 2 years ago, which turned into somewhat of a dog and pony show. By the time you finished your presentation regarding SFW's ongoing efforts, there was not a whole lot of time left for questions and discussion, which was the primary purpose for the meeting. Most, if not all, would agree that SFW and other conversation groups have participated in some very worthwhile projects. However, this is supposed to be a debate regarding core conservation and wildlife management principles--not show and tell. You can certainly discuss some of the projects that SFW has been involved with during the debate.

It seems unreasonable to require that any interested media personnel participate in your tour as a condition to covering the event. At this stage, I don't know that the media will even have interest in the debate. In the event they do, however, I think they should be invited just like everyone else. My goal is to find a location that accommodates anyone and everyone who wants to attend. I would also like to set up a webcast so that sportsmen outside of SLC can follow along if they so desire. In my mind, the only requirements to participate should be that they are willing to be polite, respectful and professional so as to not disrupt you, Randy or the moderator.

Thank you for your willingness to participate.


Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Reminds me of the time last year where a sfw handed over a check to the dwr at the rac meeting. Yep a dog and pony show it is.
 
+1 dryflyelk. These stipulations are a bunch of BS and sound more like a way to get out of the debate than to have it on even steven terms!
 
"However the same stipulation applies to any media who wants to attend the debate must attend the three hour tour of on the ground projects, fencing of highways, private land issues etc that can be clearly seen in an indisputable manner. Projects are in beaver utah."


Wow your going to have a tour of some highway fence?

Would you like a trophy with your name on it don?

Where you been the last three months when all the ?'s directed to you are commin to head?

Let me guess you send muley and birdman to fight your fights?








hornkiller.jpg
 
Here comes the the strings attached. Your BS tour is nothing more than propaganda. You hand out copies of your tax returns for SFW with the tour and I"m in.

Your true Colors are shinning through. I almost gave you some credit. What a fool I was for thinking that maybe you weren't such a stooge. Thanks for setting me straight on that.


I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-04-12 AT 08:21PM (MST)[p]I can see the SFW bus pull into the parking lot with pot gut DON stepping off the bus with his goofy hat on and bragging to everyone how he is the greatest thing next to slice bread. Everyone then piles on the SFW HO pimping tag bus and DON brags and brags until finally at exit 222 then Randy throws Don off the bus and the media writes that some lunatic took them on a bus ride. Don breathe smelt like garlic and he was half drunk from all his bragging until Randy saved the day and threw the fat ###### off the bus. Don then asks for a ride and he is met by three fat ugly polygamist women and they have their way with him. The media then reports that the leader of SFW is running through Nephi naked until he is arrested.
 
>
>If you gave me $5M and
>told me to help wildlife,
>I bet I could do
>some pretty neat things with
>$1M of it. Then when
>people questioned where the other
>$4 went, I could show
>them all of the awesome
>things I did with the
>$1M.
>
>So skip the magical mystery tour.
>At best it's a diversion
>and a side show to
>the real issues here. Let's
>get down to brass tacks
>and talk about what everyone
>wants to talk about. If
>you'd like to show off
>the Beaver project, bring a
>handout.
>
>Thanks
>
>
>Vi Et Armis Invictus Maneo
___________________________________________________________


Precisely.
 
Hawk eye

Go see my first post on this thread. Post 54. Nothing has changed


Pretty clear to randy.

1. Go on tour

2. Have a debate


If sportsmen want to solve problems. We need to look at problems and then possible solutions

Not interested in an argument. But finding solutions

hawk eye go read post 54. Then tell me it was not clear to randy

My last post recognized sportsmen may not have time for tour. And just come to the debate

If the media wants to responsibly report on this issue they need some facts and report on real problems and real solutions
 
>Hawk eye
>
>Go see my first post on
>this thread. Post 54.
> Nothing has changed
>
>
>Pretty clear to randy.
>
>1. Go on tour
>
>2. Have a debate
>
>
>If sportsmen want to solve problems.
>We need to look at
>problems and then possible solutions
>
>
>Not interested in an argument. But
>finding solutions
>
>hawk eye go read post 54.
>Then tell me it was
>not clear to randy
>
>My last post recognized sportsmen may
>not have time for tour.
>And just come to the
>debate
>
>If the media wants to responsibly
>report on this issue they
>need some facts and report
>on real problems and real
>solutions

I guess Don Peay can't read so maybe I can help him out.

Here was what Randy wrote for you Don.

dkpeay:

Thanks for the offer to tour the properties you mention. Polite, but not necessary. I will be at the chosen facility at the time you offer.

You offered a debate, not a discussion. There is a big difference between the two. So, if a debate is acceptable to you, that is what we will have.

I am fine with 7pm in Salt Lake City, on that date, if I can change my Mayo appointment. If I cannot change that appointment, any time the week after that will suffice. Or, any other date that works for you.

This idea was proposed as a moderated debate about the topics always discussed on blogs, forums, and in the news. These topics are all rooted in the same basic tenants - the seven tenants of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation.

If you want, we can email about the topics. I suggest we debate the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation, as that gives us the entire spectrum from wolves, to science-based management, to public ownership of wildlife, to conservation funding, to ..... It is also the topic that started the thread where the debate off was made.

That work for you?

If so, we need to agree upon an impartial moderator who is very knowledgeable on the topic of the debate. Since your group had Shane Mahoney speak at the Expo, I would recommend him as a very good moderator. He is very knowledgeable on the topic.

I am up for two to three hours. You make that call. More than happy to have any TV there.

The moderator is key, as are the agreed upon questions to the topics. Both keep the debate on target and reduces the likelihood that it will become to a "he said, I said" argument that accomplishes nothing.

My email is [email protected]

Feel free to email me with your ideas on the topic and format and we can start the planning.

Thanks for making the offer and acknowledging my acceptance of such when proposed by those who started this thread.

I am sure all benefit from the debate. This process can provide positions on topics that seem to start the most heated discussions related to wildlife and hunting in the west.

It may not solve all that we disagree about, but will hopefully provide viewers some information that helps them further sort out their positions on these topics.

I look forward to hearing from you.

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
Hornkiller, Thought that you had dropped off the end of the earth. Good to see you are still around. How was the goose hunt? Do have one good question for you, what have you done for wildlife as of late except horn hunting and bitching about everything someone else has tried to do. You have a great day. You deserve it.
 
Don-

Actually, you originally offered to debate "Ben Lamb or anyone else" in Post #64 on the prior thread (http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID5/19254.html). There was no mention of the SFW tour in your original offer/challenge. In Post #82 of that thread, Randy took you up on your offer. A couple of days later, Randy confirmed his willingness to participate in a ?debate.? See Post #17 above. Then four days after your original offer, on April 2nd, you responded with Post #54 above, wherein you first mentioned the conservation project tour. And finally, in Post #58 above, Randy reiterated his acceptance of your offer for a "debate" and politely declined your "offer to tour the properties." So yes, you are attempting to impose this requirement after the fact.

In any event, I will let Randy and the mediator speak for themselves as to whether they have the time and interest to take the tour. However, I do not think it is appropriate to require any media to tag along as a prerequisite to attending or reporting on the debate. As I mentioned before, you can certainly reference those projects during your discourse. A field trip seems unnecessary and may preclude media from attending, to the extent there is even any interest. I propose that we simply open the doors for the debate and allow anyone who is interested, including media, to attend. It will be your job and Randy?s to identify the "facts," "real problems and real solutions" during the course of the debate. You are both well versed on the issues and very capable spokesmen. I don't think either of you will have any problem conveying your message.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
hey peay its a debate ,would you open your books if randy went on your magical mystery tour?????? just wondering ???
 
That is a good idea- to have TONY and MILES at the debate. who said only 2 can debate? who cares about a tour,PEADAY you are starting to backpeddle. You have TAKEN millions and millions over the years and all you want to do is tour beaver,and a couple of fence projects. Just the records from the expo,and your photo album with all YOUR hunts, and the pictures of the hunts you have given to lawmakers,senators.etc.
That we have paid for and that should suffice.
Let's hope this debate really happens BUT it looks like Don is trying to ease out of it!!
DON ARE YOU SWEATING YET?? IT WILL GET HOTTER.!!
 
I thought this was all about SFW's books and auditting on a yearly basis to ensure that funds raised from 400 big game hunting tags, taken from Utahs general hunt draw, are being used in Utah, to enhance conservation in Utah.
Mr. Peay agreed to a debate and now he is putting ultimatums on the debate itself?
I have said this before boys, get on your state reps and senators. Eric Hutchings is well aware of my feelings and Mr. Waddoups is retiring , so his predicessor is on my Christmas card list. Utah's lawmakers can put a stop to this immediately. Just because these tags have been awarded for the next ten years, does not mean that it cannot be stopped before the next allotment is awarded.
Mr. Peay, if you want to save face, you should show up to the debate without any mandatory field trips and bring along the financial statements from SFW. We realy want know where the money is going. 75% to 90% being returned to conservation is not too much to ask for. Being man enough to open your books to an independent audit is all we are asking.
Did you really think that this could go on forever?
 
As I said, I already knew this song. So predictable.

I would be 100% for meeting with anyone that wants to discuss the expo in any detail, its tags and anything that led up to those tags being allocated and the intent of those tags and expo.

BUT neither of the 2 groups would be as willing to do this in an open debate/discussion. You see I would tell the truth, the whole truth and NOTHING but the truth and quit simply......................

THEY CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH.....

Hope you guys get what your looking but U2 said it best.....


Keep me informed.


Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
Tour. Smour. Lamest ego trip ever but several of you called it. SFW went prima donna when it was time to turn on the bright lights and get asked tough questions. This has to be embarrassing to the foot troops to see Napoleon not able to just show up on equal terms at a debate and get on with it. Talk about out of touch with how regular people think.
 
Some of the behavior on this thread brings one thought to mind. Keep it classy San Diego. Some of you are really quite pathetic and that is not in the least bit limited to a monopoly on one side or the other of the debate.
4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
A 3 hour tour? The last 3 hour tour didn't turn out so well for Gilligan and crew.

Carry on.
 
Gee, with fuel around 4 dollars a gallon maybe dk is trying to hide some more sfw money. Im sure the gas money will come directly from sfw... how a tour helps wildlife i will never know. I think your tour is a crock. Why is beaver the only place you can show stuff?
Like said before SFW has done some good, but does the good outweigh the bad? We want to see where all the money is going! We want it going to wildlife( the majority of it!) not 9/16's of the money either... 80+%. Instead your whoring our tags out to line your pockets. DON OPEN THE BOOKS QUIT TOYING WITH US! YOU KNOW WHAT WE WANT IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE PROVE IT!
 
Don and Randy have agreed to schedule the debate for the evening of June 27th. We are still working on a number of issues, such as the moderator, the location for the debate, the topics to be discussed, the format of the debate, etc.

Please put June 27th on your calendars. Additional details are forthcoming.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
On another thread, X-treme posted that Don Peay is a Consultant, He cannot sign a check and does not have the authority to make any decisions without the permission of the board. You keep saying he needs to open the books. Will all you need to do is look at the books youreself. No you would sooner ##### and moan about what goes on than see for yourself. It takes to much effort to check things out. You are afraid that you will find out that SFW is up front with things. That would ruin your complaining about them.
 
On the road right now, with limited web access.

I agreed go all requests made by Don. I will go on the "three hour tour'" even with Gilligan issues considered.

I made one request. I be provided all financial information to support or refute any claims made of funding of projects by SFW, and their source of funds from government programs.

I have offered to sign a non-disclosure agreement, prohibiting my distribution of anything provided. In my CPA life, I sign these all the time. They are serious agreements in my profession.

Both for personal integrity and professional credibility, I would never violate the terms of an NDA.

So, that is the only request I have made. Whatever it takes to keep this moving along. I hope they accept my one request, as without that information, nothing can be verified or rebutted.

Thanks for all the interest I the debate. If done right, with the proper topics, this can be helpful.


"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
Don started SFW. He may no longer be on the board and truly has no control of the books. So, why will SFW not release their financial statements and funds management?
It is apparent what people want out of this, why does SFW refuse to show this information?
 
I would be interested in the amount of public verse private land that this tour will encompass. Also how much SFW money verse partner money has been spent on the public verse private land. Again I am not insuating that there is an "issue" I just feel that this is relevant information. Possibly the answer can be provided without the tour and prior to the debate. I am guessing this information is readily available for publication today.
It is my understanding when SFW takes credit for the 800 million or whatever it is they claim as habitat enhancement that very little is actually SFW money and most comes from partners. I understand that Don/SFW has played a role in securing some of the partner funds I don't agree that SFW can lay claim to that money so my interst in the breakout.

I would also like to see the tour held somewhere besides Beaver, SFW has done a good job of marketing what they see as their benefits there. How about taking a tour in Box Elder County or numbering each county and picking a number out of the hat and touring that county.
 
Some areas have had more need of the funds than other areas. In the Beaver area in the recient past more deer have been getting killed there. One of the highest in the State. Therefore money has been going to that area. Some counties in the State have not had as big a problem or much of a problem as others. You fix the worst first. Where the problems are that is where the money goes to fix.
 
bird if the majority of $ ...say 90% went back to wildlife in utah ill bet more then just beaver could have had work done. I liked your statement "fix the worst first!" thats the prob we have with sfw we are tryig to fix the worst parts about it first. just because there are areas in utah that dont have as many issues as "beaver" doesnt mean the whole state is perfect so we should not worry about fixing the bad parts. same thing goes for sfw... sfw has done some great things, but there is major things that need fixing in sfw..... so lets just say the questions on we have on what sfw does with the money and where it actually goes is the beaver area of sfw to us! fix the worst problems first! you said it yourself birdy!
 
How about bring Randy bring RMEF's books in as well.




Outside of a horse is good for the inside of a man.
 
I would be interested in knowing who is deciding what is worst. If I am not mistaken a survey by an independent group recoginzed a road in Box Elder County as one of the worst in the state. In fact there have been numerous corrective actions to help that road. I am not aware that SFW has been a part of it but maybe they have and it we would be a nice place to tour. I also believe Box Elder has one of the largest percentage of public lands of any county and there deer herd is suffering just like all deer herds. These are things I am trying to find out. Who makes the decisions and why or where money is spent.

We already know about Beaver I would just like to see some of the other good SFW has done with the millions. Or maybe Beaver is the only place Don can give a tour because that is all there is.
 
>How about bring Randy bring RMEF's
>books in as well.

For sure. I already asked for it. It took them about two hours to get it to me. What of that info do you want to know? They are hoping people will ask about rheir limited involvement in auction tags, as they have nothing to hide.

They kept 8% of the money on the few tags they were asked by states to auction. They keep ZERO on the AZ elk tag, the most expensive they are asked to auction.

They refuse to auction the CA tag, upon learning the proceeds do not go to wildlife. Guess who auctioned a CA elk tag in SLC in Feb.?

If all groups were as open about their books as RMEF, there may not even be any intetest in a debate.

RMEF could completely drop the few tag auctions they do for these states. It is a drop in the ocean, compared to their total finances. They did not build their model to rely on state assets for operations.

They help these states by bringing more money for the tags at their Elk Camp. If these tags continue to be abused, I suspect RMEF will just walk away from them, as it is not worth the baggage for what little they get financially.

You can read all their financial information online at one of the charity rating websites.

Too bad such transparency is not the norm with some groups. What's to hide?
 
Be more interested in how much money they spent in 09 through 12 in fighting the wolf battle.


Also what percentage of funds get on the ground.


Cant include any land that public in not allowed to hunt on, ie the HH, sure there is others as well.





Outside of a horse is good for the inside of a man.
 
Jason and Randy


I look forward to the debate about the north American wildlife conservation model and many of the new and innovative concepts adopted in the state of Utah - by the governors, legislature and past and current board of big game controls, wildlife board and the wildlife board the last ten years

And of course the results for habitat restoration and movemement of herds and hunting opportunities - be they up or down and why

Randy the tour will be most interesting. Sfw has been a part of major projects all over Utah. Beaver has a lot of diverse issues graphically displayed in a concise area.


My iPad lost your emails from this morning, can't find them, sorry


I suggest we have a three way conference call on tuesday to outline further details. 11:30 am work for you guys ?

I suggest we don't debate the format of the debate on mm, you can see no matter how good the intent there will be lots of attempts to distort or disrupt.

Let's get ready for a healthy, indepth, professional debate on the issues

Don
 
Isn't the public allowed to hunt on the HH in the same sense the public is allowed to hunt CWMU's in Utah?

I believe the independent audit of RMEF indicates 92 cents of every dollar goes to their mission. Which is on the ground.


As far as the wolf war, it would be nice if all the groups would indicate how much they have spent. I am doubting a significant amount of SFW/SFH money has fought the battle unless they include BGF which I understand not a part of SFW.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-12 AT 03:23PM (MST)[p]In case you were asleep, 30inch, RMEF, along with most other groups were on the winning side of the wolf battle. You we're on the side that got their teeth handed to them.

If you are still sore about that, come to this debate and when the topic comes up, I will have volumes of documents to prove who was with us and who was against us in getting wolves delisted. I am waiting with great expectation for that topic to be part of the debate. In fact, I am willing to go on a three hour tour just to make sure we get to clear the air on wolf delisting. I really hope you can be there, as maybe your listening comprehension is better than your reading comprehension.

Look at the charity rating services and see where RMEF rates. I will save you the effort - they rate at the top of the conservation groups. I can't recall the exact percentage that goes to program work, but it was right near 90%.

If you want to debate RMEF, versus SFW, start another thread, and I am sure most will oblige you. It appears the hats you have been fitted for in the last threads on these type of topics are now too small. Bigger ones are available, free of charge.

Start a new thread, and let's have that discussion. Seems you can't hang them with the auction tags, so you quickly crawled in hole on that. Now you will have to crawl in a hole on the percent of money that goes to program work. So, start a new thread and see how big of a fool a state SFW leader, such as you, can make of himself. You usually excel at it, so I will watch for that new thread.



"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
Wow Dusty, I was about to make a reply to your last two posts, especially the 2nd one when I had to step away to answer the phone. As soon as I got back I hit the refresh button and saw that Randy's comments more than said what I had in mind.

You're better than this brother, you really are. Walk away from SFW, you'll be doing yourself a favor and you can still do things that benefit wildlife. I'm sure you've done far more to benefit New Mexico's wildlife than I ever have. You can do all of that without SFW you know.

If you can't walk away from SFW, it's your choice, but at the very least if you truly beleive in SFW, think before you post 'cuz you sure aren't doing them any favors.
 
I believe that CWMU's are still private land,

I guess that the HH is as well since it is owned by the RMEF. It sould have been real nice to see some of those hunts goto a raffle type or a public draw, vs the current way it is done now. Which by your accounts is a money loosing item.


BigFin, been several times that the wolf war was gone over in other posts, I just want to see the numbers backing your statements in previous topics that RMEF has been fighting the wolf war for years, that is all. It wasnt until Don and BGF laid the groundwork for them that they FINALLY decided to step up.


I know how it went down, your on the side that sold out. Not to have the correct bill in place but to keep your membership up.


Debating on the internet is like debating with an idiot, pretty soon nobodys knows who the idiot is.




Outside of a horse is good for the inside of a man.
 
Sean we got more going on in NM right now, everything is looking very positive for NM. It is looking like well over 250K should hit the ground in NM in the next couple of years.

Along with fighting the anti-trappers.

my repsonse to big fin got posted up above his for some dumb reason.




Outside of a horse is good for the inside of a man.
 
Driving to Beaver from Salt Lake will take close to two hours. Guarantee this "three hour tour" turns into six. I still fail to see the reason why there needs to be a tour.
 
I believe there are a number of HH hunts that are awarded in a raffle or drawing. Not sure I ever said they were money losing.

It is ironic to me that you would feel that the way the HH allots there resource as corrupt. But you would support an organization that has and is petitioning for private land owners to gain more control of our wildlife.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-12 AT 06:33PM (MST)[p]It will be a three hour drive to Beaver,

Then a three hour t our looking at freeway fencing and underpasses, federal lands pre treatment and post treatment. - major habitat issue on federal lands that greatly affects populations of elk, mule deer, antelope, bighorn sheep and other species, looking at private land issue found in the middle of federal and state lands. And finally looking at 640 acres of state land that was to be sold to developers and was bought by sfw for winter range for public land elk and deer.k


All of these issues are absolutely essential to the future of game herds and hunting. And a picture is worth a thousand words

Lots more work to do in the future on issues just like these around the west

Then a three hour drive back to Slc. Then the debate

So it is going to be a long 12 to 16 hour total day. We spend this kind of effort many, many days a year
 
I think the reason for this tour is because Don wants to see parts of Utah before he has his ass handed to him in a debate.
 
I hunt coyotes down there so I can take lots of pictures and post them on here so that there is more time for the debate.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-12 AT 07:10PM (MST)[p]Speaking of NM and SFW, is any of that 250K intended to fix the "deer a day" massacre on LaPlata highway? Those coal trucks just devastate and don't even stop.
A simple 10-15mph reduction in speed between the hours of 5PM and 7am can reduce deer/auto collisions by 60%. Simply reducing the speedlimit to 45 mph during these hours would save a ton of deer. Plus it would increase county's revenue by ticketing all them Durango rally racers that drive through there at 80mph.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-12
>AT 06:33?PM (MST)
>
>It will be a three hour
>drive to Beaver,
>
>Then a three hour t
>our looking at freeway fencing
>and underpasses, federal lands
>pre treatment and post treatment.
>- major habitat issue on
>federal lands that greatly affects
>populations of elk, mule deer,
>antelope, bighorn sheep and other
>species, looking at private land
>issue found in the middle
>of federal and state lands.
>And finally looking at 640
>acres of state land that
>was to be sold to
>developers and was bought by
>sfw for winter range for
>public land elk and deer.k
>
>
>
>All of these issues are absolutely
>essential to the future of
>game herds and hunting. And
>a picture is worth a
>thousand words
>
>Lots more work to do in
>the future on issues just
>like these around the west
>
>
>Then a three hour drive back
>to Slc. Then the
>debate
>
>So it is going to be
>a long 12 to 16
>hour total day. We
>spend this kind of effort
>many, many days a year
>

Think of all the work you could have accomplished had the money been used more wisely. Not that having a new 3/4 ton's not great, just saying.
I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
Why the tour, Maybe it would be simpler to just do a Video to show at the debate?????????.
You can then highlight all the projects that they had done.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
The 3 hour drive, then the 3 hour tour, then the 3 hour drive is meant to bore the hell out of you so you cant pay attention to the debate.

Although, I would like to go on the tour and see how, 1st hand, these projects are going. Like many on here have mentioned, I know SFW has done alot of good things, and I am sure that these projects are more of those good projects that need to be done.

BUT......I want to make darn sure that my hunting rights and privileges are not taken away and given to the rich and famous and land owners. My family own 300 acres of PRIME hunting land on top of monroe mountain, but the deer herd is in the tank there and I dont have the $$$ to buy an elk tag, so its pointless hunting grounds to me right now. But we know that 3oo acres wont do crap for hunting.

I am excited to see the end of this.
 
Hey Fin, god bless you man!! In order to get THE DON in a debate you are going to put up with the crap to do it, THANK YOU.

As for THE DON's contention that SFW has been involved in tons of projects so they are the greatest in wildlife conservation, I work in a food warehouse so I guess I get credit for everyone in here having food, without me you all would starve!!!

Fin, you had to sign a non disclosure agreement? I understand private entities requiring these, but why would you have to for a group like SFW? How can a welfare group such as them require this? This seems troubling at best to me.

RMEF took 2 hours to give you their financials? Its been a year since THE DON promised to do this for us at his dog and pony show.

Tony Abbott: Amazing how he is out for revenge, has an ax to grind, is bitter, is just unemployed, yet everytime he opens his mouth on this subject, SFW does exactly what he says they will do. Whether you like the guy our not, his claims have been validated!

Lastly, thanks Hawkeye. Even though we all know that SFW has what it wants(a decade of welfare), and could care less about anything else, you have done good work(and I don't think you get a conservation tag to auction for having done it).


When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
 
Hoss-

Don't thank me. I am just like the rest of you guys. I have questions/concerns with the current system, and I am looking for answers/solutions. Let's thank Randy and Don for agreeing to step into the public spotlight for an evening to discuss these important issues. Regardless of where you stand on the issues, we all should appreciate the fact that they have agreed to participate in this event. A public dialogue will not resolve every issue but it will help educate people as to different points of view, positions and approaches that out there.

As the date for the debate approaches, we may need for some help with things such as setting up, cleaning up, etc. I would hope that we could round up some volunteers off this site. I will let you know what we need when the time arrives.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Point that should be made is the Beaver property along with others in this state have been mostly purchased with Conservation permit money (in other words public money) yet some of these properties and possibly most of them are held in title by private groups.

In other words state money bought land that is owned by a private group. Is this not unethical and possibly should be illegal?

And the amount spent on 640 acres would of gone a long long way to habitat restoration on thousands of acres in more needed places. Very bad business decision in my opinion.

Probably a very big waste of "public" money. Also the great sheep transplant to Timp and Rock Canyon that was going to benefit us all has turned out to be a flop and waste of money as well just like I predicted it would.

Think how much GOOD could of been done if the public money would of actually been used wisely instead of on "feel good" and "selfish" projects.

Nick, Many may not like me, but its not because I lie about things. Its because the truth hurts them. Anything I say I will stand by 100%. I won't take any of you on a "3 hour tour" to try and justify my actions and direction. No I will say the truth and the facts without deflection.

Man you would think this state was full of GOP politicians with all the deflection and name calling going on.




Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
Which is exactly why your big ginger ass needs to be involved
in this cluster




2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
DING! DING! DING! and there we have a winner.

This is why SFW financials are so important.
If SFW has purchased privately held property such as the Weeks property in Cache Valley with (the 90%) Conservation money wouldn't the property be titled to the DWR rather than SFW. If it has strictly been purchased by SFW monies raised from guns/ artwork / raffles and donations then SFW retains title and credit. Depending on who you ask within the SFW ranks the property may have been purchased with conservation monies along with other SFW held properties. This would be a great topic for debate to clear the water.
How much conservation money has been spent on SFW assets?
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-12 AT 11:58AM (MST)[p]Those are great questions, but they should be pm'd to randy so peaday can't read them and have time to TRY to cover his a## with some bs paper trail.98% of what sfw has they got from us.
That's how they got started many years ago, at the expo mart on 200so 300w in slc- at the big mule deer expo.
Old don was grabing people at his little booth and saying you look familiar how do you feel about our deer herds blah blah this is why you should join us -sfw-. And now this is what WE got in return. As far as needing help at the debate.
(if it happens) I'll bring the barf bags but wont cleanup the sh#t that PEADAY will be spewing.!!

I wish our deer herds today were like they were sfw started,
I'm not saying it's there fault our herds are what they are but clearly they had a different agenda. and the deer was not it.!!
 
Big Fin, I was on the fence about rejoining RMEF but with guys like you working with them and seeing how you've stepped up here I've rejoined and glad of it. Thanks.....ton of respect for you !!
 
Tony,

I am curious about SFW buying property. Why are the properties not deeded either back to the state, or in some type of trust? I am assuming that SFW holds the land(in the green zone of course) for tax reasons? In reality 640 isn't a very big piece of ground. What is the gain for SFW in actually buying property rather than doing improvements on existing state/fed/blm ground? It does seem rather strange that a group that wants to save the mule deer in utah would focus on such small pieces of ground?


When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
 
Nick

If you could buy a piece of property with someone elses money and hold title in your name and do it in the name of "wildlife" would you be standing in line to do it?

Imagine if you could buy property with not your money, hold title in your name, take credit for saving deer winter range, use it as your rally cry for locals and uninformed sportsmen to donate you money, and use it as a justification for your very existence.

Question is since the property would be in your name could/would you borrow against it for "things"?

Could or would you sell it down the line for gain and not have to pay back the the money you used?

Could or would you be able to do anything with it you wanted because it was in your name?

Could or Would you not use it with politicians to show them how "great" you are and how much "good" your are doing?

Maybe you could/would even use it as a way to sway legislators to allocate money for you out of general fund for your wolf agenda or maybe other personal agendas?

Could/would you use it as a way to get in good with a Governor or even a Presidential candidate?

Maybe you would even offer a "3 hour tour" to people so you could try to convince people you are great and care about the everyday health of deer and sportsmen.

You tell me Nick, is this something you would do?

Maybe you would do it because you have little morals or ethics.

The greatest Welfare program EVER is what I would call this, only this one has very few checks and balances.

I don't think you would do this Nick.

Really makes you think about things doesn't it?

I'm glad I don't associate with people who might think this is a good idea. There would probably be a public outcry over something so ASININE.....

Tony Abbott
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
Oh and to answer your question as to why someone would buy property that was so small it is really irrelevant to the overall health of a deer herd. I simply do not know. Maybe there is a hidden agenda or ulterior motive.

That is just my opinion.


Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
First of all there is not 90% of the conservation monies that SFW can spend. Second of all that 60% of the consevation money that is used must be agreed upon by both the DWR and the group that got the conservation money. do you really think that the DWR would let SFW buy ground with that money and deed it to SFW? Also there has been ground bought that is used for winter range for deer and elk such as the ground in Beaver. Fishon puts a good spin on things.
 
What spin is that Birdman? I gave a scenario and asked if Nick would do it.

BTW, you really need to check your FACTS about people or groups you defend so you do not prove yourself to be as ignorant as you appear.....

Do you really think I would post something that was not true about someone or something? NO I WOULD NOT. I will back up with FACTS 100% of the things I say are true.

CAll Jim Karpowitz and ask him if ANY conservation permit money was spent on buying land and if that lands title was put in the DWR's name or a private groups.....

Do some homework and save yourself the pain of your posts.

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
Fishon, You are doing good to grind your ax with a group that let you go. Can you remember just before you and SFW parted ways, the meetings that were held, kind of in secret. The meetings with some board members and committee members. Not all at once. I do.
 
What ax am I grinding by answering questions asked of me and giving an opinion?

Please enlighten us all of the meetings and information at the meetings you claim to know so much about.

Did you call Karpowitz about the title on those pieces of land purchased with C.P. money yet?

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
When a contract is not renewed, same as being fired. Second, you claim you were the one that saved SFW by letting them in on the Expo as they were about done. Is not that your own words you put on another thread. You know that is not so. You were there to push the expo but Don was the mouth piece and pushed and got it through. Now if you did come through and save SFW like you say you did, I guess you are the one to blame for them being around doing what you say they are doing. After all you were with the Mule Deer foundation when you saved SFW.
 
Birdman

I never had a contract to get renewed with SFW. It was a handshake deal. Again you need to state facts.

Please copy and paste the comment you claim I made so I can address it. Not sure I remember saying I "SAVED" SFW. I "saved" MDF, but I have said that many many times.

But I think what you might be referring to is Me taking the MDF to FNAWS and doing a joint national convention and then SFW not wanting to be left out asked if we would do a joint convention in SLC with them. IS that what you are talking about?

And actually I attended more RAC meetings on the expo then Don did. Go GRAMA that request and again you will see it is FACTUAL.

I atteneded EVERY rac meeting on the expo tags and EVERY board meeting, nobody else did other then the DWR.

Birdman you seem to be the one with an AX to grind with me. I NEVER bring you up or address you until you start casting stones.

Why such dislike for me Birdman? What have I done to you? DOn't people deserve to know the facts?

Fact is the Hunt Expo NEVER happens if I wouldn't of teamed up with FNAWS. That is a FACT. SFW was not big enough and did not have the member backing to make it happen. And they did not want to be left in the dust by FNAWS and MDF (my opinion).

Remember I was the one that Don talked too about doing a joint convention with the 3 groups not you. I might just have a little more info on how all that went down then you do. :)

Keep casting stones Birdman, one day you might actually hit something other then your own head.







Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
Tony, You make me laugh. Sometimes I think that the truth hurts you. You know the situation as well as I do. Keep pushing your agenda. You are good at it but you really do know the way that things went. Don't spin everything.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-12 AT 04:29PM (MST)[p]What agenda am I pushing?

Keep throwing those stones Birdman, just make sure you duck with all your errant throws. Also you better sharpen that Ax, it does not seem to be doing a very good job.

Anytime Anyplace I will debate ANYONE on anything I have posted or said. I will bring facts and proof and witnesses to back it all up.

You Birdman will continue to hide behind a screen name and look ignorant.

So go ahead with the last comment on this between us. Hopefully it is a acceptance to debate me on anything I have said and to do it in a open, public forum.

I won't hold my breath.

Now get back to the matter of the post. The debate between "The DON' and "BigFIN.

I don't need to attend, I already know the outcome and content.






Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
There seems to be alot of I's in fishons posts...

I got the expo
I got teamed up with FNAWS
I cost SFW and MDF millions
I'm the only one that tells the truth
I'm the only one that attended RACS
I I I I I I I and so on!!!

No wonder they both ##### canned you, there was no more room for I Uhh I mean your head in their organizations!!!

Flame on fishon!!!
 
Kris

Not even cleaver.That has been said by many others including your fearless leader many many times. And don't you think I I I I I I I would be sued if the things I I I I I I have said are not TRUE.....

Nothing to flame here. Are you a Flamer?

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-12 AT 05:00PM (MST)[p]Thing is that land ownership is public info. A quick check on monday may shed some light on this topic.
 
Like I said earlier, All the answers are there to be had if people want to find them. You don't need my insight if people would just do their homework.

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
Tony, not saying this to be rude, but with your past history with these groups, you come across as a spurned lover and it harms your credibility here.

Whether you are right or wrong on the issues, there is a taint to your opposition. The louder you cry foul, the worse it gets. Maybe a more legitimate spokesman would be in order?
 
Bob

I am not hear to be anyone's spokesman but my own. I am not representing anyone other than myself. And My credibility in my business speaks for itself and holds its own.

So how I come across to you and anyone else is your issue. I am just telling what I know and telling it how I want. I am not trying to make friends or run for office.

But I can tell you this Bob. I get emails and messages form MM members weekly asking more about it and asking what they can do to stop the whoring and the lies. Why do you think they are asking me BOB?

So I respect your opinion and everyone else's but it won't change what I KNOW and what I experienced or how I will come across. But If I decide to run for office or start my own group I will see if you want to be on my committee to make sure I am "POLITICALLY" correct.

Thanks Bob. I think I will go make me a burger.

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
It's not about making friends or running for office. It's clearly 180 degrees from it, but the fact you reference that as an issue shows where your head is in this whole debacle and you have no credibility due to the SFW/MDF baggage you carry.

Credibility and P/C are two different issues. ##### political correctness. You clearly helped create this monster and it's obvious there is personal emotion and malice on your part, you've been spiteful ever since you were let go. But good luck with it and don't burn your burger.

Don't get me wrong, I think SFW has a lot of stink on them. I don't know how you could have helped get any of it on you.
 
That is what happens when companys,partnerships,organizations,etc, come apart. Tony was in the heart of this org.For whatever reason now he is not.Tony has stated in prior posts that he has said liable things,As powerful as the DON seems to be WHY has'nt he taken any action?? It happens all the time it's called whistleblowing,And it sounds like Tony has some very powerful info and i think he should be heard.I think a debate with TONY v DON would be a hell of a lot more informational than the one we MIGHT get now.Everybody that has worked for anyone has some DIRT or knowledge of illegal activities it's just a matter if you have the ball's to do anything about it. I think Tony is veiwed by sfw as very dangerous to their org.And there is no way in hell they will debate with him. HE KNOW'S TO MUCH!!!!
 
+1DoctorD I would say there is probably a lot more credibility on the part of Fishon than the guy saying he has none!!!
 
Tony
Just remember if you argue with a fool he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

So Birdman are you sitting as the right hand of DON(god).
Tony has posted alot of information that Don or anyone else could take him to the mat with,BUT they haven't why do you think that is, because he does know where the bodies are buried.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
It is interesting how everyone says how bad and dishonest that SFW is. If they are that bad and someone has the dirt on them that they say they have, then are they not doing the hunting industry a big injustus by not bringing them down? Should they not be doing their part in fixing this dishonesty that SFW is suppose to be doing. SFW goes through audits every year. Both by the State and the Feds. For some reason the government seams to turn their head to the dishonesty that exists. Why would that reason be. Or could it be that they have done everything according to the law thus being honest in their money issues? I mean that they continue on when suppositly they could be brought down at anytime with their dishonesty. For all you people out there that KNOW that SFW is dishonest, then fix the problem. If you just do not like what they do, then I guess you can continue to complain. It seems to make you feel better.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-12 AT 11:32PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-12 AT 11:31?PM (MST)

Then take Tony to court and have him stop slandering your not so great org. I dont see PEADAY on here calling Tony out on anything he has said it's just you munchkins that seem to be sticking up for Don.And to be honest i dont understand why sfw is trying to start his spin i mean tag grab,money grab,in arizona when he still has'nt done what he had promised to do here in utah.!! Other than the well is starting to dry up.Are you going to be helping Don with the tough questions he's got coming at him at the debate.???
 
Then there is people like you DoctorD that does not know what you are talking about. See Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife has nothing to do with SFWaz. NOTHING. Not the same organization, nothing the same except SFW. Again, anyone who says they are is wrong, anyone who says they know they are the same organization is a liar.
 
so you are saying the books are open to any member that ask to see them, I know for a fact the books have been ask for alot and they are never been given.



"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-12 AT 08:10AM (MST)[p]Oh I see (they just want to use the sfw logo) and not start a chapter in az.So myself and all the other posts about that are idiots? Maybe you should have Don get a glassectomy so when your heads up Dons ass you can see out and know whats going on.How about answering the other parts of my last post instead of that 1 paragraph.? In the meantime i will call a couple of my guide friends and see if they want to change their names to say RMEF outfitters and DU wings!! I'M sure those org's wont care if there names are used. With NO affiliation of course.!!
 
Yep, the books are wide open for everyone, but BigFin is even asked to sign a no disclosure document before he looks at them, LOL! I'll bet Birdman believe in Santa Claus and the easter Bunny too, just like the organizations have nothing to do with each other, LOL!
 
I'm sure most have seen this before but here is page 10 of SFW's 2010, 990 tax form. The 2010 is actually better than some past years. Not sure why a non-profit organization would not want to open there books to the public?

Regardless of what people think of them, they do not seem like a very efficient organization.

1029990.jpg
 
In actuality I have been the one getting slandered by some of the "munchkins" lol. I have done ZERO slandering. I have stated what I have experienced and my knowledge, and what my opinion is based on those experiences and knowledge. And I stand by what I have said.

But those "munchkins" sure have nibbled on my kneecaps a bunch :)

You want to meet with me and talk about the expo and how it came to pass and how it was set up and what the intent was I would be glad to do so. Invite anyone else to debate me on it as well. Wildlife board members or ANYONE.

There will be no need for a 3 hour tour or any fluff.

You can also invite the media, hook up a streamline and even pop popcorn if you want. I will do it all for FREE with NO STRINGS attached.

SO enjoy your debate that will leave you with the same questions you have now and the same frustrations.

Or visit with me and I will be glad to lay out a way I believe will stop the Whore train and benefit wildlife for EVERYONE regardless of their tax bracket.

Then I will walk away and continue with my own business and not expect anything in return for what comes of our meeting.

I am not starved for attention or bitter about my past. I am not promoting my business on here. I am an everyday sportsman who wants his kids to be able to hunt and not have to spend their college fund on it.


Tony Abbott
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
So tell me Doc, it is not the logo that is used. Logo's are different. It is the same initials. But then again, who owns the lettering SFW. Is it Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife, or the Arizona group of Sportsman For Wildlife, or is it Seattle Film Works that goes by SFW. Maybe it is Shoppers Food Warehouse. They use SFW. Accendo also uses SFW as part of their abbreviation. I guess it could be the CPA firm that uses SFW Partner s, LLC. I guess it could be Safe For Works video company. Now there is Science Fiction Weekly, Salado Fine Woodworks, or could it be SFW trucking out of Portland Tenn. So tell me how because a group uses SFW it means that Don Peay must have started it or it is associated with him. And how did you put it DoctorD " So myself and all the other posts about that are idiots?" You said it.
 
Haha, cause a CPA firm, food warehouse, trucking company and a science fiction company is just as likely of an affiliation as a conservation organization acting similarly.........

I'm not speculating on whether or not they are affiliated, but your acronymous defense is a bit silly, don't you think?
 
Is it tree. The statement was made that they use SFW. All I did was point out that SFW is used in many companies. Hey, they do not even have the same name. They are set up totally different and things are run different. But then, the people on MM are tying it all together because of SFW lettering. SFWaz is not a chapter of Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife, Never has been. Assumptions have been drawn by some people on MM and that assumption is wrong. That is just a FACT.
 
Go to PAGE 11 POST #69-JAN,16-12(GLENINAZ)-RE SFW-ARIZONA!!!
Not shoppers food warehouse- Don Peay set up sfw in AZ.Don held the meetings there to kick off the sfw.Don also hired PETE CEMIRILLO and SUZANNE GILSTRAP to launch THE BRANCH.
And there is more to read you responded a couple times on this post but NOT after post #69.It sounds like GLENINAZ was there and you were not!!!
And as for the idiot statement I HAVE YOR IDIOT HANGIN
 
DoctorD---There is no sense trying to reason with the Birdman as he wouldn't believe AZ was set up as a separate unit by DP even if DP himself told him!!! If I had a few bucks for every time Birdman has come on these threads with the same baloney I could buy my Wyoming hunting licenses this year.
 
First of all, I do not care what Gleninaz said happened. SFW has stated that no money went to Pete Cemirillo or Suzanne Gilstrap. Not one cent. That was stated on MM. So if Gleninaz said he was there and seen it happen he is lying. Simple as that. IT DID NOT HAPPEN. I read the post also. I seen what SFW responded to Gleninaz. NEVER HAPPENED. And Topgun believes everything he reads. HE KNOWS ALL.
 
Not true! I don't believe a friggin thing that you post and nobody else does either! SFW has you so snowed over you'll never dig out from under it, LOL!
 

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