Decline of Elk in AZ

[sagebrush]

Here are the proposed changes in a nutshell:
Wolves are currently restricted to the Blue Range Wolf Recovery Area. Any wolf leaving the BRWRA is required to be captured and returned into the BRWRA. The proposal removes this requirement and allows wolves to naturally disperse into the Mexican Wolf Experimental Population Area which is all lands south of I-40 and north of I-8.
Additional release sites will include ALL of the Sitgreaves National Forest and the Payson, Pleasant Valley and Tonto Ranger Districts of the Tonto National Forest (that's 4A, 4B, 22 and 23).
Extend the MWEPA from I-8 on the south down to the Mexican border.

The diet of the Mexican gray wolf, according to the USFWS, is 75% elk, 20% livestock and deer, 5% other. More important is the stress from the constant harassment by wolves. Pregnancy rates and calf and fawn survival rates drop dramatically as a result. Once the wolves get a toe hold in these units, they will be spreading to the surrounding units. The result will be the same in the enitre state of Arizona as it was in the Yellowstone National Park where the elk population dropped from 20,000 to less than 5,000 after the introduction of wolves there.

If you care about the future of elk hunting in Arizona, you need to get involved now before it is too late. The wolf enthusiasts believe ungulate populations can be controlled by wolves down to a naturally sustainable population. That means no hunting.

The hunting community banded together to defeat HB2072, can we not also do so to protect our elk herds?

 

[Bura Nut]

I couldnt agree more. Anyone that has an interest in hunting Elk in AZ needs to contact USFW and their senators/legislators to oppose the expansion of Wolves in Arizona. The fed's have de-listed Grey wolves, but the Mexican wolf has not been de-listed. I believe the liberal groups see Mexican wolves as a way to reducing hunting opportunities. If we allow the expansion into greater parts of AZ, we start losing. Interesting that 96% of the Mexican wolves original stomping grounds is/was in Mexico. Why doesnt Mexico want to open up re-introduction in that country? Our Government should spend tax payers dollars on something more worthwhile like reducing the unemployment rate or helping create more jobs. Thanks, Allen Taylor......

 

[couesmagnet]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-14 AT 04:06PM (MST)[p]I heard this from a couple of ranchers and locals this summer also in 23. It also sounded like there were a few extra rifles being purchased just waiting for such an event. Never heard so much passion about a glorified coyote hunt before. Boom boom comes to mind. I've never seen one before, and i hope i never get a chance.

 

[sagebrush]

Wolves in AZ really aren't going to effect me too much. I'll be 64 next hunting season so I don't have that many seasons left in me. I just hate to see hunting in our state going quietly into the night without so much as a raised eyebrow.

 

[nontypical]

I'm from Wyoming, and have seen first-hand how the wolf issue affected our state. It was my experience that it didn't matter what the hunting community said or how we expressed our opposition to the introduction of wolves. It was a done deal. Wyoming stuck to her guns and was able to designate wolves as predators( shoot without a license anywhere, anytime)in most of the state.

It is also a done deal in Az and NM. The only thing you guys can hope for is to have some say in the management of wolves. They are coming and you won't stop the steam-roller of the environmental/wolf-lover groups. They have a huge say-so in what the federal govt does.

It's also been my experience that hunters seem to not get involved in issues affecting the future of hunting, but then beotch later on; when it's too late. Hopefully you guys can get involved like you did with the license set-aside fiasco. Unfortunately, you are dealing with the feds on this one.

Good luck.

 

[gleninaz]

The only time I have ever seen enforcement officers for USFS was during the time Obama closed all the lakes to the owners. We have federal departments that have been slowly overtaken by agenda driven hippy kids for the last 30 years. Do what you have to do because we are way beyond ever winning in a legal manner.

 

[sirroyal]

I agree we must fight this wolf issue.
But I believe there is a bigger one!

What about the WOLVES in sheeps clothing that keep selling out to the (Federal) Forest Service?
You say what do you mean? We have had Elk herd reductions of 40% since 2000. Case and point is 6A-7-8-9-10 are not the units they used to be and many others. Everybody blames the ranchers for this , its not true they have some leverage but are a small percentage of the blame!
The Forest Service is the single biggest red taped bureaucracy that is affecting our Elk Herds!

 

[piper]

Last time we hunted 6a, the elk numbers were notably smaller, several people including an outfitter said it was because of an excessive amount of tags given out, and the reason Game and fish killed the elk off was because of a lawsuit from ranchers.

What has that got to do with the forest service?

 

[sirroyal]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-14 AT 06:59AM (MST)[p]I love hear say ! Especially guides and hunters that think they know what their talking about.
The Forest Service is the problem not the Ranchers! Ranchers do apply pressure.
But the Forest Service wants quotas met.

Oh by the the way my info is first hand with one of the top Game Wardens 5A-6A and . We had this conversation for about 2 hours in the field on a Dec Coues deer hunt when there was no pressure for him to be anywhere .

 

[piper]

I have never heard that before. I know in Nevada its not the forest service that gets cow hunts to obtain low elk numbers, its always the ranchers.

Unless there is actual habitat damage from elk, I see no way the forest service is going to push for lower elk numbers. Of course they could be the middleman bad guy.
If there isn't enough forage for both cows and elk, then they may be forced to push for elk reductions, because the laws favor cattle.
Either way its competition from cattle.

 

[gleninaz]

Guess what wolves eat when all the deer and elk are gone?

 

[azbullhunter]

The reason there are less elk is because there are more elk tags. Game and fish set the numbers. Remember we want "hunter opportunity" They do not do this for money. The ranchers put the pressure on game and fish.

 

[sagebrush]

We can all complain about tag numbers, cattle and the USFS, but when the wolves are decimating the elk, none of that will matter anymore. And the tag numbers and number of cattle on the range will be lower.

 

[sirroyal]

>I have never heard that before.

You have now!

> I know in Nevada
>its not the forest service
>that gets cow hunts to
>obtain low elk numbers, its
>always the ranchers.

Not here!
>
>Unless there is actual habitat damage
>from elk, I see no
>way the forest service is
>going to push for lower
>elk numbers. Of course
>they could be the middleman
>bad guy.
>If there isn't enough forage for
>both cows and elk, then
>they may be forced to
>push for elk reductions, because
>the laws favor cattle.
>Either way its competition from cattle.

Hard to change ones mind when it's already made up.
>

 

[azbullhunter]

How many cow tags have been issued in the last 15 years? That is what started the elk decline.

 

[rthrbhntng]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-14 AT 08:23PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-14 AT 08:22?PM (MST)

The Arizona Elk Society has been at the table with AZGFD, USFS, USFWS, Ranchers and more on this very issue. We keep fighting for the Sportsmen of Arizona.
There are many reasons for the reduction of elk in many of the Units you guys have stated above.
Ranchers pressure USFS to pressure AZGFD to reduce elk numbers when their is a lack of forage for all ungulates. As the ranchers cow numbers are reduced so are the elk numbers. USFS uses a formula to calculate how many ungulates the habitat can support and split it between Elk and cattle.
The USFS pressures AZGFD to reduce elk in areas where the elk have browsed and killed aspen, willows, maples and more. This is a year long battle in Units 5A,6A, 6B, 7E, 7W, 8 and others. The loss of winter range in the eastern units forced the G&F to reduce elk over there but now they are coming back.
There are so many factors at play. Seems everyone has their own ideas but until you get involved in the conversations, meetings and habitat projects to mitigate some of the issues you will never know the whole story.
This is one of the reasons that you all should think about joining a group like the Arizona Elk Society. We are working hard representing sportsmen and elk here in Arizona and with more members we will wield more pressure.
Some of the issues we are involved in are listed on our website in a 2013 Year in Review document and many of our letters are posted on the ISSUES tab on the website. www.arizonaelksociety.org
Right now our biggest battles are the aspen issue, Mexican wolf issue, habitat work and WATER this year.
Steve

 

[Bura Nut]

Very good response Steve. More people need to get involved/educated on the issues and help stand up for all outdoors people. Paul started this thread and is to be commended. Thanks, Allen Taylor......

 

[Bugler]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-14 AT 04:41PM (MST)[p]Sat in a wolf meeting last week, with parties ranging from biologists,ranchers, tribes and other state officials.
Just thought I would put it out. The enviros are planning 750 to 1000 wolves in the wild. Thought you would all like to know. Oh I forgot, the North kaibab was also on the table.
JD

 

[sagebrush]

Bugler - Thanks for the information.

Who hosted this wolf meeting and what organizations were in attendance?

 

[Gator]

AZ about to feel the pain the states up north is feeling.
Hate to see 23 and then 22 ran over with wolves.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]

 

[Bugler]

I will just tell you that AZGFD biologist, commissioner, and several reps from various state agencies, state lawmakers and tribes as well as NM reps were in attendance.

 

[rthrbhntng]

I will say this about the meetings.
It is the USFWS (Feds) that want the 750-1000 wolves in AZ from border to border including the Kaibab. The plan is pushed by the enviros and politics.
Arizona Game and Fish is working on a plan, proactively, to try and get State control of the wolf recovery. In the northern states the G&F did not have a plan and the pro-wolf groups sued and kept the USFWS in court until the numbers were out of control.
If AZGFD can come up with a plan and numbers that are biologically, socially and economically acceptable to all involved state entities that are affected by wolves and can get state control we will be better off. At least they are trying to get ahead of the curve. Hopefully the plan will be balanced with our wildlife for no net loss of Elk and Deer so that we can enjoy the heritage we have created.
If left up to the Feds, and a NO-WOLF attitude on our part, then the Feds will force the 750-1000 and there will be nothing the State or you and I can do about it.

 

[sagebrush]

Thanks again bugler. I didn't hear of an open meeting and I hoped that's what was happening.

Good to know that G&F is trying to stay ahead of the curve this time around. A lot can be learned from what happened in ID, MT & WY. We need to do what we can to limit the number of wolves and protect areas like the Kaibab and the Strip from the introduction of a non-native species. I agree, we need to work with the wolf hippies and not dig in our heels or we for sure will get the loose end of the rod.

I urge every hunter conservationist to keep an open mind, evaluate the G&F plan and weigh the proposal against federal control. Maybe we can avoid a disaster.