Declining Yellowstone Elk

[slamdunk]

So according to the biologists in Yellowstone, it's not the wolves that are responsible for the decline in elk, the real problem is the Lake Trout in Yellowstone Lake.
Yep....just watched a program on the Smithsonian channel all about it.
They say it's just irony that the elk numbers plummeted shortly after the wolves numbers exploded.
Go figure!!

 

[DW]

Was it noxious fart bubbles from the lake trout?

 

[RELH]

Oh! Oh! There goes their carbon points for polluting the atmosphere.
Just typical liberal enviro nut cases lying again.

RELH

 

[Weiserbucks]

Fork a woof

 

[elkassassin]

Hey PUNK?

Kinda Like The Wolves You seen in Utah that the DWR wanted nothing to do with,Right?










[font color="blue"]dude has his Resume turned in to be Hillary's
Intern[/font]

 

[slamdunk]

>
>Hey PUNK?
>
>Kinda Like The Wolves You seen
>in Utah that the DWR
>wanted nothing to do with,Right?
>
Exactly!
Maybe the lakers in Flaming Gorge will be the blame for declining elk numbers in the Unitas as well! ?

 

[elkassassin]

>>
>>Hey PUNK?
>>
>>Kinda Like The Wolves You seen
>>in Utah that the DWR
>>wanted nothing to do with,Right?
>>
>Exactly!
>Maybe the lakers in Flaming Gorge
>will be the blame for
>declining elk numbers in the
>Unitas as well! ?
>
>
>

LOL!

Amazing they'll put that kinda BS on TV & alot of people will some how believe it!

JUDAS!










[font color="blue"]dude has his Resume turned in to be Hillary's
Intern[/font]

 

[RELH]

I was in Yellowstone several years ago and most of the park employees are die hard wolf lovers. They will lie all day long to protect the wolves.

RELH

 

[YBO]

And...these Chris Mathews types (wolf lovers) not only get goosebumps in their crotches when listening to the chatter of these vicious critters, but, worseyet, they vote. We are *******.

 

[patea]

yep took kids to yellowstone every nite rangers gave programs telling how great wolves are for park no effect on elk even when i questioned them. so they are convincing millions of kids whose parents don't know better how great wolves are. y'all are right they will vote and our kids hunting traditions are definitely gone eventually

 

[hossblur]

So you don't go to Yellowstone to see the growth explosion of the willow?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[slamdunk]

According to the study, illegally introduced Lake Trout into Yellowstone Lake has decimated the native cutthroat trout, which used to thrive and spawn in the river systems that the Grizzly Bear relied on as a major source of food. Their observations concluded that the Grizzlies now hunt and consume 1/3 of the spring elk calves during the summer months.
They claim nothing "abnormal" with the wolves.

 

[Vanilla]

While I won't defend wolves, and don't love how long they have ran around unmanaged, to ignore the lake trout/grizzly issue will make you miss the mark on this.

The lake trout problem is a real one for the cutthroats. This has impacted the grizzlies in YNP. And the grizzly problem is a real one for the elk. The elk are getting hit from all sides, which makes an unmitigated wolf population even worse, IMO.

 

[slamdunk]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-29-16 AT 09:58AM (MST)[p]>While I won't defend wolves, and
>don't love how long they
>have ran around unmanaged, to
>ignore the lake trout/grizzly issue
>will make you miss the
>mark on this.
>
>The lake trout problem is a
>real one for the cutthroats.
>This has impacted the grizzlies
>in YNP. And the grizzly
>problem is a real one
>for the elk. The elk
>are getting hit from all
>sides, which makes an unmitigated
>wolf population even worse, IMO.
>

I totally agree on the fish issue, cannot deny it's validity.
But on a side note, they never mentioned the wolf being wasteful and also leaving hundreds of elk partially consumed and how the grizzly is a scavenger and benefit greatly from that waste. They gave absolutely zero credit to the wolves impacting the declining elk numbers.
Ask any Idaho biologist about where their elk are going, i guarantee you they cannot pinpoint it on lake trout.

 

[DW]

I think unmitigated grizzlies are part of the problem as well.

 

[heartshot]

I think wolves have helped the grizzly population explode. The wolves do the killing then the grizzlies eat the left over carcasses.

 

[dz]

Do they eat the elk calves the same time that the trout are spawning? I think not. They have not replaced the food source from trout to elk. They have always eat elk. Just now they are getting the credit for eating tens of thousands of them. Because the wolves only eat the sick and dying ones.

DZ

 

[tx_packmule]

I'm bear stupid, but don't they hibernate when the elk are in high stress periods?

 

[slamdunk]

According to the study, it's the older age class of cow's (6 and older) getting or staying pregnant, and the bears are finding and killing 1/3 of the calves during the late spring, early summer months.

 

[Idahoron]

I was in Yellowstone about 10 years ago and picked up a new paper that was printed by the park service. They were discussing Mountain Goats in the park. They called them non native. they also compaired the mountain goats in the park to Hungarian partridge in other places in the United states. I was pissed! The claim was Mountain goats were never in the park until they spread from a transplant that the Idaho F&G did in the palasades area. I am still pissed about that. I never heard what they did about it.

 

[tailchasers]

A bear is a bear a pig with fur and a big claws. Whether it's a black bear feeding on Mule deer fawns in the spring which the bear has been proven to have the highest predation rate on mule deer fawns or its a grizzly feeding on elk calves. It's an easy meal and a bear will take advantage of it. Bigger bear just means bigger food. To say grizzly bear do not induce a high mortality on elk calves is contrary to the species proven behavior and a simple fact for natural behavior. Calves are to easy with high food value for a bear not to eat.

"Courage is being scared to death but
saddling up anyway."

 

[RELH]

The problem in Yellowstone is the fact you have now two major predators that look at the elk and deer as a major food source.
For years it was only the grizzly feeding on them and the elk and deer were able to maintain their population numbers to a reasonable level.

You now have another major predator in the form of introduced wolf packs and between the two the elk and deer will diminish in population.

When that food source drops below a certain level, you will see the wolves and grizzly bears migrating out of Yellowstone park to find another food source. That will be when the animal lovers will find out why ranchers poisoned off the wolves to protect their cattle.

RELH

 

[elkassassin]

HOLD IT!!! HOLD IT!!!

Got Something to SPLAIN To You Boys!

"Illegally Planting of Lake Trout My Ass"!

This Is How Smart Our Government is!

They Claim the Lakers were Illegally Transplanted!

They even Had Reward Signs up!

When In Reality!

When they Were Dipping Water to put the Big Fire Out!

And I Quote:

They Dipped Water & Lakers out of Jackson Lake & Dumped the Water/Lakers around the Tributaries of Yellowstone Lake Planting them their selves!

So Did anybody Collect the Reward?

I Highly Doubt it!











[font color="blue"]dude has his Resume turned in to be Hillary's
Intern[/font]

 

[mightyhunter]

It is my understanding that Lake trout were first introduced into YNP in 1890. They were planted in both Shoshone Lake and Lewis Lake that year. The U.S. Fish Commission (now known as the USFWS) with input from the Superintendent of YNP were apparently responsible for the planting. It is unlikely that they would now be in Yellowstone Lake if the federal government had not introduced them to the area. The lake trout is only partially to blame for the decline in the cutthroat trout in Yellowstone Lake. Another culprit is the "let it burn" policy pushed by YNP. This has resulted in the silting up of many cutthroat trout spawning streams. In addition, the policy has destroyed much of the forest canopy resulting in an increase in the temperature of many spawning streams. The federal government will spend a lot of money eradicating the lake trout but they will never be able to get them all. Although, the lake trout prefer deep water lakes, I have caught them in small streams feeding Jackson Lake and have also caught them in the Snake River below Jackson. They do move around.

I live in the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem. The wolves and the increased population of grizzly bears have taken a toll on all the ungulates in this area. The moose and the elk have been hit the hardest. I currently see more grizzly bears in the sagebrush around grazing cattle and farmland than I do when I am hiking in the high country. Last year I saw 19 grizzly bears. Only three of those bears were in the backcountry. I fully expect the USFWS to delist the grizzly bear this year. After this, the lawsuits will be filed (in Washington D.C. Federal District Court)by the eco-elites and they will win with their pet judges. Just like the wolf in Wyoming, the status of these predators will be in a constant state of limbo. The ESA and EAJA are both broken and until they are fixed this crap will continue. Neither political party has the will to do what needs to be done to fix the problem.

I refer to the reintroduction of the wolf as the "Great Wolf Experiment". The scientists all knew what would happen. On a more positive note, I believe the elk and moose are adapting to the dangers of wolf and bear predation. It may take them a long time to develop survival techniques, but they are doing it.

The folks that work for the National Park Service are for the most part mindless lemmings. They do what they are told and say what they are told to say. When you find yourself talking to these lemmings in a public setting, challenge what they say about the grizzly bear, wolf and lake trout. It is enjoyable to watch them stutter and stammer.

just sayin...mh

 

[elkassassin]

Ya!

That 'Let it Burn' BS!

They've tried a little of that down here as Well!

F'N Near Took out a Small Government Town a few years Back!

After it Got Clear out of Hand what else you gonna do?













[font color="blue"]dude has his Resume turned in to be Hillary's
Intern[/font]

 

[mntman]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-31-16 AT 08:53AM (MST)[p]> Another culprit is
>the "let it burn" policy
>pushed by YNP. This has
>resulted in the silting up
>of many cutthroat trout spawning
>streams. In addition, the policy
>has destroyed much of the
>forest canopy resulting in an
>increase in the temperature of
>many spawning streams. The federal
>government will spend a lot
>of money eradicating the lake
>trout but they will never
>be able to get them
>all.

Fire is nature and should be allowed to burn. That is the way every thing west of the Mississippi is recycled into the soil (nutrients). The reason fires are so bad in recent decades is 100% due to gov't policy of putting out and preventing forest fires since late 1800's. If they were allowed to burn then there would be a bunch of little fires. Not a gigantic fire that kills all the seeds, trees and burns the topsoil, resulting in the erosion issues.
Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"

 

[ralphie]

I've guided summer and hunting trips south of the park for 12 years. The outfitter and some other guides have been there for 30+.

None of us has EVER seen a grizzly fishing. 300 yards from our camp is a hole where the cutthroats line up. I've seen people catch them with their bare hands. And we frequently see bears in this same meadow.

A big # of our clientele want to go up there for the fish. So we are there at the big holes when the fish are there and yet we never see bears fishing.

When the cutthroats are around there are holes like this up and down the creeks. And yet no one in our camp has ever seen a bear fishing.

So I have a little bit of a hard time believing that the bears are that dependent on the fish. Maybe they only fish at night.

Plus the cutthroats are only there for a few weeks. And when they are gone, they are all gone.


And as to how the lakers got into Yellowstone lake itself I've been given the same BS from the parkies about how it happened inadvertently from water drops during the fires.

The parkies really get twisted up when you run that scenario by them.

So the aircraft managed to pick up a breeding population of trout that is in deep water. Then when dropped from 100s of feet up onto FIRES and DRY LAND the fish survived the fire and the drop and the dry land and established a breeding population in the lake. Seems legit;-)

 

[SMOKESTICK]

The story I was told was the park service hired a couple outfitters to pack lake trout in to the lake. They deny it now but I have heard outfitters admitting that they knew the guys that brought them in via horses and packs.

Mighty Hunter summed it up well; this is nothing more than the grand experiment. Uncontrolled proliferation of large predators is by design. All of the anti-hunting efforts have switched from a direct, frontal assault to their form of education. They have taken over the park service, the forest service and are in the process of taking over state wildlife agencies. Wildlife management is no longer taught. It is now called conservation education.

The anti-hunters realized they changed the debate with the introduction of wolves. Now that they are established, they will become the primary purpose of wildlife. It will no longer be about putting food on our tables but sustaining these large predators.

There is a solution but it will take a lot of political pressure, dedication and determination. I am convinced that just as they changed the debate, we now need to change the debate as well. Wolves and grizzly bears have met and exceeded recovery goals for over a decade (wolves) and almost two decades (grizzly bears). Wyoming needs to quit asking for permission to exercise their jurisdictional authorities guaranteed under the US and State Constitution. Either Wyoming is Sovereign or it isn't. As a Sovereign State, Wyoming doesn't need the blessing of the federal government to exercise it's jurisdictional authority. The courts have failed the state and the state needs to simply put aside the opinions of the courts.

 

[mightyhunter]

Mntman,

What constitutes a "gigantic" fire in your mind? In 1988, almost 800,000 acres were consumed in Yellowstone Park. That was about 36% of the entire park.

All fires start little and because of weather, the time of the year, and other factors may become very large if not controlled. A lightning caused fire in May or June in Wyoming may become very large if allowed to burn until the winter snows fly. The same fire started in September may do very little in the way of burning. The recent Hunter Peak fire (just outside YNP)this year was controlled by the USFS, the weather and by the burned off areas from the Clover Mist fire.

I am very familiar with the decline in the cutthroat trout in Yellowstone Park. To suggest that lake trout predation is the sole cause of the decline is nonsense. It does draw attention away from some other causes. There are other consequences to "let it burn" policies in YNP. Most of the tributaries in Yellowstone Lake on the east side are silted up. Spawning gravel for the cutthroat trout has been covered with that silt. Water temperatures in some of those tributaries have also increased. Without a forest canopy, water temperatures increase. Fire destroys the canopy. I have spent some time in the Upper stretches of North Crandall Creek. It is a tributary to the Clarks Fork of the Yellowstone. The Clover Mist fire seriously burned the head of that steep drainage. Erosion at the head of that drainage allows dirt, sand and silt to cascade into that creek with rain and snow runoff.

I am an advocate of using fire to improve habitat. It can be a real benefit to ungulate populations. The Gunbarrel Fire of a few years ago in NW Wyoming is ample proof of that. If not for the uncontrolled growth of predator populations in that same area, the benefit would be even more obvious. However, uncontrolled fires may also have negative consequences. Because it is "nature" does not mean it is all good.

just sayin...mh

 

[elkassassin]

>I've guided summer and hunting trips
>south of the park for
>12 years. The outfitter
>and some other guides have
>been there for 30+.
>
>None of us has EVER seen
>a grizzly fishing. 300
>yards from our camp is
>a hole where the cutthroats
>line up. I've seen
>people catch them with their
>bare hands. And we
>frequently see bears in this
>same meadow.
>
>A big # of our clientele
>want to go up there
>for the fish. So
>we are there at the
>big holes when the fish
>are there and yet we
>never see bears fishing.
>
>When the cutthroats are around there
>are holes like this up
>and down the creeks.
>And yet no one in
>our camp has ever seen
>a bear fishing.
>
>So I have a little bit
>of a hard time believing
>that the bears are that
>dependent on the fish.
>Maybe they only fish at
>night.
>
>Plus the cutthroats are only there
>for a few weeks.
>And when they are gone,
>they are all gone.
>
>
>And as to how the lakers
>got into Yellowstone lake itself
>I've been given the same
>BS from the parkies about
>how it happened inadvertently from
>water drops during the fires.
>
>
>The parkies really get twisted up
>when you run that scenario
>by them.
>
>So the aircraft managed to pick
>up a breeding population of
>trout that is in deep
>water. Then when dropped
>from 100s of feet up
>onto FIRES and DRY LAND
>the fish survived the fire
>and the drop and the
>dry land and established a
>breeding population in the lake.
> Seems legit;-)

Hey Ralphie!

For Somebody that Guides I Thought You'd know more about Lakers?

Don't know where all they Dipped water while Fighting that Fire?

But if You Believe the BS that Lakers are Only in Deep Water You are very Wrong!

I've Caught many below Jackson Dam!

Is that Deep?

If You don't Think it can Happen you are very Blind!

I Guess You Don't Think They Dropped any of that Water around any of the Tributaries?














[font color="blue"]dude has his Resume turned in to be Hillary's
Intern[/font]

 

[elkassassin]

And one more thing!

They Claimed for Years around here that Lakers could only Survive in Cold Water!

True for the Most Part but we've seen them Adapt & Survive here where they said they wouldn't!

They Also said the Stripers in Lake Powell wouldn't Reproduce,Ya Right!













[font color="blue"]dude has his Resume turned in to be Hillary's
Intern[/font]

 

[elkassassin]

This Ain't me Talking:

During the 1988 fires fire crews used the water from Lewis Lake to help combat the fires. Lewis Lake and Shoshone Lake were purposefully stocked with Lake Trout many years prior to the 1988 fires, and carried many different age classes of Lake Trout. These age classes would range from the adults who would live at the depths of the lake where the water column stays the correct temperature to adolescents and fry who would still be in the shallows at this point in their lives. It is very plausible that water buckets for the air drops could have easily picked up adolescent or fry Lake Trout and transported them the short distance to be dumped into a tributary that feed Yellowstone Lake.

They were also doing air drops in the fall which happens to be during the Lake Trout spawn, which occurs in the shallows. It is also very plausible that bucket drops could have picked up tens of thousand of fertilized Lake Trout eggs and dumped them in waters that led to Yellowstone Lake.









[font color="blue"]dude has his Resume turned in to be Hillary's
Intern[/font]

 

[ClearCreek]

> This Ain't me Talking:
>
> During the 1988 fires fire
>crews used the water from
>Lewis Lake to help combat
>the fires. Lewis Lake and
>Shoshone Lake were purposefully stocked
>with Lake Trout many years
>prior to the 1988 fires,
>and carried many different age
>classes of Lake Trout. These
>age classes would range from
>the adults who would live
>at the depths of the
>lake where the water column
>stays the correct temperature to
>adolescents and fry who would
>still be in the shallows
>at this point in their
>lives. It is very plausible
>that water buckets for the
>air drops could have easily
>picked up adolescent or fry
>Lake Trout and transported them
>the short distance to be
>dumped into a tributary that
>feed Yellowstone Lake.
>
>They were also doing air drops
>in the fall which happens
>to be during the Lake
>Trout spawn, which occurs in
>the shallows. It is also
>very plausible that bucket drops
>could have picked up tens
>of thousand of fertilized Lake
>Trout eggs and dumped them
>in waters that led to
>Yellowstone Lake.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[font color="blue"]dude has his Resume turned
>in to be Hillary's
>Intern[/font]
>
>

Lake trout have been in Yellowstone Lake for many, many decades. They did not just get introduced to the lake in 1988.

ClearCreek

 

[Vanilla]

mightyhunter,

I don't think anyone is claiming that the lake trout are solely responsible for the decline of the Yellowstone Cutthroat. Just like the wolf can't be blamed solely for the reduction of the elk herd.

But they are both contributing factors. And they are both contributing factors that we as people can help manage.

 

[elkassassin]

>> This Ain't me Talking:
>>
>> During the 1988 fires fire
>>crews used the water from
>>Lewis Lake to help combat
>>the fires. Lewis Lake and
>>Shoshone Lake were purposefully stocked
>>with Lake Trout many years
>>prior to the 1988 fires,
>>and carried many different age
>>classes of Lake Trout. These
>>age classes would range from
>>the adults who would live
>>at the depths of the
>>lake where the water column
>>stays the correct temperature to
>>adolescents and fry who would
>>still be in the shallows
>>at this point in their
>>lives. It is very plausible
>>that water buckets for the
>>air drops could have easily
>>picked up adolescent or fry
>>Lake Trout and transported them
>>the short distance to be
>>dumped into a tributary that
>>feed Yellowstone Lake.
>>
>>They were also doing air drops
>>in the fall which happens
>>to be during the Lake
>>Trout spawn, which occurs in
>>the shallows. It is also
>>very plausible that bucket drops
>>could have picked up tens
>>of thousand of fertilized Lake
>>Trout eggs and dumped them
>>in waters that led to
>>Yellowstone Lake.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>[font color="blue"]dude has his Resume turned
>>in to be Hillary's
>>Intern[/font]
>>
>>
>
>Lake trout have been in Yellowstone
>Lake for many, many decades.
> They did not just
>get introduced to the lake
>in 1988.
>
>ClearCreek

OK ClearCreek!

I Won't Argue with You cuzz I don't Personally know exactly How long they've been in Lake Yellowstone?

The Government claims in a few Articles it was 1994 before the came out of the closet on it?

Then I read other articles saying 1989?

You're saying long before that!

My Question is:

Why'd they put a Reward out for the Illegal Introduction of Lakers if they'd been in there for years?

I've seen the Yellowstone Cutthroat go down hill in Size & Population for years!

Guess they gotta Blame it on something?

Last Time I was at the Bridge you couldn't even see a Fish!

Time before that mostly TRASH Fish!

Who the Hell Put them in there?












[font color="blue"]dude has his Resume turned in to be Hillary's
Intern[/font]

 

[hossblur]

>>> This Ain't me Talking:
>>>
>>> During the 1988 fires fire
>>>crews used the water from
>>>Lewis Lake to help combat
>>>the fires. Lewis Lake and
>>>Shoshone Lake were purposefully stocked
>>>with Lake Trout many years
>>>prior to the 1988 fires,
>>>and carried many different age
>>>classes of Lake Trout. These
>>>age classes would range from
>>>the adults who would live
>>>at the depths of the
>>>lake where the water column
>>>stays the correct temperature to
>>>adolescents and fry who would
>>>still be in the shallows
>>>at this point in their
>>>lives. It is very plausible
>>>that water buckets for the
>>>air drops could have easily
>>>picked up adolescent or fry
>>>Lake Trout and transported them
>>>the short distance to be
>>>dumped into a tributary that
>>>feed Yellowstone Lake.
>>>
>>>They were also doing air drops
>>>in the fall which happens
>>>to be during the Lake
>>>Trout spawn, which occurs in
>>>the shallows. It is also
>>>very plausible that bucket drops
>>>could have picked up tens
>>>of thousand of fertilized Lake
>>>Trout eggs and dumped them
>>>in waters that led to
>>>Yellowstone Lake.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>[font color="blue"]dude has his Resume turned
>>>in to be Hillary's
>>>Intern[/font]
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Lake trout have been in Yellowstone
>>Lake for many, many decades.
>> They did not just
>>get introduced to the lake
>>in 1988.
>>
>>ClearCreek
>
>OK ClearCreek!
>
>I Won't Argue with You cuzz
>I don't Personally know exactly
>How long they've been in
>Lake Yellowstone?
>
>The Government claims in a few
>Articles it was 1994 before
>the came out of the
>closet on it?
>
>Then I read other articles saying
>1989?
>
>You're saying long before that!
>
>My Question is:
>
>Why'd they put a Reward out
>for the Illegal Introduction of
>Lakers if they'd been in
>there for years?
>
>I've seen the Yellowstone Cutthroat go
>down hill in Size &
>Population for years!
>
>Guess they gotta Blame it on
>something?
>
>Last Time I was at the
>Bridge you couldn't even see
>a Fish!
>
>Time before that mostly TRASH Fish!
>
>
>Who the Hell Put them in
>there?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[font color="blue"]dude has his Resume turned
>in to be Hillary's
>Intern[/font]
>
>

Why the hell did some dude who made some movie get throwed in jail when Hillary let Bengazi burn? Why the hell did they roadblock and kill Lavoy when he was on his way to the Sheriff? I believe they teach all government employees CYA on day one of training.

I like yellowstone. Fun to ride up every few years and check it out. I dont hunt it so this is easy for me to say, but....Don't you kinda want to watch the new age eco warriors destroy the place with all the stupid shizz they do. I mean I can't think of a better way to show the world how dumb some of these people are. The birthplace of the American park system, overgrown with willows, absent of all wildlife(except those big dumb cows with big heads). I mean how long until Yellowstone goes roadless? Perhaps a wilderness designation? Sorry to the fellas for which this is there back yard, but in my fantasies, Yellowstone becomes the grand failure that all the liberal biology can make it.

Second, my bro in law works for the forest service. He's a Utah boy, been in the mtn.s since he was born, 4x4, atv, etc, etc. He did forest inventory for years. He was always perplexed by who the bosses would be. It was never anyone who had been on a mtn. Kids that would cry at night thinking the elk were invadding in the fall when they would scream at night. Kids that litterally shized themselve for fear of not having an outhouse. Guys who couldn't chain a truck, use a winch, tow a trailer. Women who could get lost with GPS, a map, and compass. Seems in a lot of cases the FS is like most government, you fail upwards. So I guess its not suprising that the lake trout is killing off the elk.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[OldBear]

Propaganda in its purest form. Supposedly, Yellowstone is suppose to be natural???? Really? They have completely removed the real king of all predators, man. Man use to be allowed to prey on animals, in Yellowstone. So, by definition, Yellowstone will NEVER be natural until they reintroduce man as the main predator. Man is the predator that restores balance in all Eco systems.
On this Lake trout thing. I would just like someone, to explain to me, why the Grizzly bear can do so well in the Bob Marshall Wilderness with no big cutthroat trout runs and the bears can't in Yellowstone.

 

[mtmuley]

>Propaganda in its purest form. Supposedly,
>Yellowstone is suppose to be
>natural???? Really? They have completely
>removed the real king of
>all predators, man. Man use
>to be allowed to prey
>on animals, in Yellowstone. So,
>by definition, Yellowstone will NEVER
>be natural until they reintroduce
>man as the main predator.
>Man is the predator that
>restores balance in all Eco
>systems.
>On this Lake trout thing. I
>would just like someone, to
>explain to me, why the
>Grizzly bear can do so
>well in the Bob Marshall
>Wilderness with no big cutthroat
>trout runs and the bears
>can't in Yellowstone.
This is the kind of BS barstool redneck "biology" that will drag us down. mtmuley

 

[OldBear]

Well, then explain it to me. I made a simple, factual statement and asked for a simple answer.

 

[OldBear]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-16 AT 01:23PM (MST)[p]
>
>Lake trout have been in Yellowstone
>Lake for many, many decades.
> They did not just
>get introduced to the lake
>in 1988.
>
>ClearCreek


+1
I really don't know how large the largest Lake Trout that has been caught in Yellowstone Lake, but I had a neighbor that lived for fishing Shoshone Lake, back in 1980. He had caught Lake Trout near 30lbs in size from Shoshone Lake. It takes a long time for a Lake trout to get that big in a lake like Shoshone Lake, I'm guessing nearly 30 years? So, that takes us back to 1950. I'm guessing that however the Lake Trout got into Shoshone, they were introduced at the same time in Yellowstone Lake. Being a much larger lake, it just took more time for them to take hold.

 

[johnnyutah]

Enviros sold us the wolves on the premise that they only kill the old and sick. Like so many enviromental predictive sciences it takes decades for reality to disprove the theories they can dream up in 15 minutes. Imagine the shear panic when reality showed enviros that wolves also love calves and will decimate a heard. So instead of admitting draw backs, they focus on trees and frogs. If their science regarding bears and fish and elk was true, it would have happened long ago as there were established populations of lake trout even when the elk herd was at their population peak. Emotions get in the way though and they are completely incapable applying a simple scientific method that removes factors one at a time. They wouldn't dream of setting forth a null hypothesis that reads "wolves haven't affected the population of elk in Yellowstone."

 

[OldBear]

> Emotions get in the
>way though and they are
>completely incapable applying a simple
>scientific method that removes factors
>one at a time.
>They wouldn't dream of setting
>forth a null hypothesis that
>reads "wolves haven't affected the
>population of elk in Yellowstone."
>


+1

When emotional environmentalism gets in the way of logical and sound management, then their answers to the current problem will create another unforeseen problem. Today's breed of environmentalists are emotionally based.

 

[elkassassin]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-16 AT 08:57PM (MST)[p] So Guys!

I Won't Argue the Lakers have been it Yellowstone Forever!

Here's what I Shake my Head at!

The G&F/Fed's/Government don't Recognize/Accept the Facts until 1994?

JUDAS!

Sounds about Right!











[font color="blue"]She put a Big F.U. in My Future,Ya She's got a
way with Words[/font]

 

[johnnyutah]

I went to Yellowstone last year and was disappointed in not seeing any moose. I asked a ranger where we could find some. She said there are not many and pinned it on the fires. I'm not so sure as moose live in the wet areas. I'd love to see a real study on how the wolves have affected the moose. (As opposed to an enviro pseudo study that will find a way to say no impact.)

Prediction: There is no way their science would tie wolves to negative impacts on moose populations.

 

[elkassassin]

>I went to Yellowstone last year
>and was disappointed in not
>seeing any moose. I
>asked a ranger where we
>could find some. She
>said there are not many
>and pinned it on the
>fires. I'm not so sure
>as moose live in the
>wet areas. I'd love
>to see a real study
>on how the wolves have
>affected the moose. (As
>opposed to an enviro pseudo
>study that will find a
>way to say no impact.)
>
>
>Prediction: There is no way
>their science would tie wolves
>to negative impacts on moose
>populations.

The Government Will tell Liberals & Democrats everything they wanna Hear!

It's Just like when Obama or Hillary Talks!

People Like dude Suck the BS in!











[font color="blue"]She put a Big F.U. in My Future,Ya She's got a
way with Words[/font]

 

[mightyhunter]

The decline of moose in YNP and the surrounding areas are a fact. The 1988 YNP fires were only a small part of the problem. However, moose populations were still up in the area well into 2000. The moose in Wyoming also suffer from a worm that acts as a parasite in their heart and arteries. The dirty words "wolf predation" will never be uttered by a National Park Service employee. They are told what to say by their superiors. When they blame it on the 1988 fires, ask them why the falling moose numbers did not start to tumble until 15-20 years after that.

Moose are especially susceptible to wolf predation. In my opinion, they have been damaged by wolf predation more than any other ungulate. Early last year, I ran into a cow moose with two calves. She was living in dense area near water with a lot of willows. Later that summer, I ran into the same cow with no calves. I seldom see any calves by August of each year. In the course of a year, I will only see a smattering of mature cows and a very occasional bull. This year I have seen only one cow moose. She had no calves. Bear in mind that I am hiking in the backcountry 2-3 times a week from April through November. I am heading into the East Entrance of YNP today. I will be surprised if I see a moose on the way to the park (North Fork Shoshone) or in the park.

just sayin...mh

 

[elkassassin]

Well!

After a Few Years of NO Calf Survival!

What do you have?

You Don't Have SQUAT!

That's What!

So The Government Superiors Teach their Employee's to Lie?

We Already Knew that!










[font color="blue"]She put a Big F.U. in My Future,Ya She's got a
way with Words[/font]

 

[OldBear]

>
>Well!
>
>After a Few Years of NO
>Calf Survival!
>
>What do you have?
>
>You Don't Have SQUAT!
>
>That's What!
>
>So The Government Superiors Teach their
>Employee's to Lie?
>
>We Already Knew that!
>
>+1

Anytime government will not tell the whole truth, it is called propaganda in its purest form. Grizzly bears have always been killing the elk calves. With approximately 1000 grizzlies they will probably take about the same number of calves per year when there was 30,000 Elk or today's 6,000 elk. Now it's all the grizzlies fault, however it really is man's fault because he took the 2 week food supply of cutthroat trout in May, due to introducing Lake trout. The wolf gets the pass, it caused nothing.
Looking on the Internet I found an interesting clip,

Jump to the 2:30 mark and you'll actually see photos of them planting fish in Yellowstone Park from the old milk cans. Yet, even in this clip, the narrator says the Lake trout came from Lewis Lake, with absolutely no qualification how they know this?