Dedicated Hunter Program for NM?

[RabidRattleSnake1]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-08 AT 04:37PM (MST)[p]What are your thoughts about Utah?s Dedicated Hunter Program? Would something like this work here in NM? Maybe on a smaller scale or a hybrid of their system? Looks to me like a good way for the game and fish to get ?free? labor for habitat improvement projects, encourage participating in department meetings and provide hunters with an opportunity to enjoy extra opportunities in the field. I am sure there is a downside to the program, but it looks like an over all win win situation for Utah, so why not here?

 

[PAblackbear]

I don't know much about the dedicated hunter program. Alot of what I have read in the Utah forum makes it seem that most DH pass up what would be BIG bucks in a lot of NM. Could you see someone passing on a 140 inch buck in unit 34 on public land? That would be considered small to most in Utah. Like I said, I don't know much about it.

 

[PHC]

Part of the reason some of those areas you mention don't have bigger bucks is that people are not willing to pass them when they are young. If a buck is to get old and reach 160-200, he is probably going to be a 130-150 inch 4x4 along the way. If people stopped shooting young bucks that were less than 5 years old, you'd be shocked at the trophies that would start appearing all over the state on public land.

 

[PAblackbear]

If hunters in 34 passed bucks less that 5 years old, the success rate would be less than 5 percent if I had to guess.

 

[kysersosay]

well you have to take into account that the majority of folks on this forum are pretty hardcore trophy hunter types, and we are not a representative sample of hunters (in Utah or NM), rest assured there are plenty of folks killing forkeys in both states, and NM rates pretty dog-gone well in terms of the quality of bucks (in some units) compared to other states. Actually, if you read much of the Utah posts around here, it sounds like the bulk of Utah is pretty crappy for Mule deer trophy quality as of late (as opposed to Utah elk).

The only way to improve age-class distribution in a unit is for the NMDGF to limit the number of hunters, Point restrictions don't work unless your able to find a way to exclude (protect) 2-5 year old bucks. I like the idea of a slot limit- legal to take forkeys, and 5+ bucks. Problem is, how do you write up the bag limit?? I mean you can't just tell hunters to shoot one "older than 5", you have to have a definitive description of what's legal and whats not. Many guys may decide not to shoot one less than 5, but it doesn't work unless everyone is doing it.

I tend to argue against any changes in the NM draw system, but I'm not sure what the details are with the Utah dedicated hunter program, maybe so.. What's it all about?

 

[balz]

I grew up in Southern Utah and participated in the DH program for one term. Not sure if it is like this still but while I was a teenager up until you were 18 you were able to hunt on all three season with a one buck limit per year. After I was 18 I had one session as a DH. I believe the concept is great. I also believe there could have been more to it to make it even better.

For example I am a big believer in micro-unit and managing specific herds versus regions of the state. I believe that there are some hunters that just want opportunity and would be happy killing 1-2 year old bucks each year. I also believe that other units of the state could be managed for a higher age class of deer. Introducing units set aside specifically for folks that are willing to donate free labor, get involved in local meetings, and pay the extra revenue, and kill less deer COULD possibly give all parties what they are looking for. The DH units could have point restriction on the them, maybe there could be a percentage of tags reserved for DH hunters, I am just thinking out loud.

Growing up in Utah and seeing all the good that these service projects has done makes me a believer in what the possibilities are. I don't get out as much as I would like and I believe there are areas in NM that are better than others but so far for me. I have yet to go out and see the sheer numbers that I see in Utah and Arizona. Its not very often to hear of folks going out and seeing 100 or more deer in a day down here, where that is a poor day where I grew up. I love NM draw system and think it is the most fair system out there. But I believe more can be done to give the more passionate sportsman in the state to oppotunity to help in the restoration and get a small reward in return.

My Humble .02

Jordan

 

[kysersosay]

Nice post Jordan. I doubt I'm alone here in NM in not knowing or understanding the DH program, could you explain it a little? It sounds like a system where hunters somehow earn a chance to hunt?? is that right, how does it work? Are the specific areas that are set aside for these huters, or specific tags or how does that work?

It does sound intriguing to me. NM is trying to implent their new "open gate program" and that is what the new Habitat Management and Access Stamp is for. They are having trouble spending that money as it's hard to find landowners that want to open their properties. They will soon start a system where hunters can give a landowner an acess cupon and the NBMDGF will pay the landowner for providing hunting oportuity (that gives the landowner the ultimate decision on who and when someone will be hunting there). It's a way to recreate the old days when a hunter could ask permission and create a relationship with a landowner for hunting priveledges. I bring it up because I'm wondering if we could blend some kind of dedicated sportsman system to overlap with the "Open Gate". and get a win-win-win outof it.

 

[balz]

In a nut shell the hunter purchases three years of immunity from the draw by paying around 3 to 5 times the face value of the tag. Once he or she has done this then they are allowed to hunt all three seasons offered in Utah. Archery, Muzzle Hunt, and Any Weapon. They do not have mulitple rifle hunts or any late hunts other that archery hunters which are allowed to hunt statewide expect for limited entry units on the Wasatch Front in December.
Anyways the hunter is only allowed to harvest 2 deer out of the 3 years. If you kill the first 2 years you will not recieve your tag for the third. Along with this you are required to do a minimum of 24 hours of service hours these project are set up by the forest or the wildlife division. You can do all 24 hours the first year or spread them out but at least 8 hours has to be done each year prior to you recieving your license. The final hoop that has to be done is the hunter no later than his second year in the program has to attend one RAC meeting in the state. These meetings are local level meetings hosted by RAC members who are choosen or elected by people who attend the meetings. The public is encouraged to attend these meetings and voice there opionions. Then once or twice a year the RAC members set down and go over all of the notes taken in the meetings with the division this is an attempt to get the division to listen to the hunters in the field. In my life I have rarely seen the division listen to any imput, but at least folks are trying. Anyways this in a nutshell is the dedicated hunters program. Hope this helps

Jordan

 

[balz]

Also to add to that the DH do not currently has units set aside for them and them alone. The units they hunt are the general units which if you look in the Utah Proc. are the Southern, South Eastern, Central, Northern, and North Eastern. These areas are lottery draw like everything else in Utah, but if you choose to be a DH then you can pick your region and do not have to apply in the draw. Your tags are atomatic. These areas are whats left after all of the limited entry units. The Norhtern and N. Eastern Regions often times have tags left over after the draw.

Jordan

 

[PHC]

I agree that the success rate would go down drastically initially if people started passing young deer, because the right now the age structure is out of whack due to buck over-harvest and harvest of young animals. The goal of management in 34 and others is not to maximize trophies, but to maximize harvest availability for the largest # of hunters.

But, if the goal is trophy harvest, Letting as many bucks as possible reach 5+ is the only way. I've hunted one of the most "known" trophy units in the state, and it was ridiculous. Totally un-natural age structure due to over harvest and harvest of young bucks. It still produces trophies due to the overall low population, good nutrition, and good genetics - and a few bucks do make it to age - but it could produce a lot more and bigger ones.

Not sure exactly what the answer is, but right now it sure seems to me that the managment in almost all units is heavily weighted towards harvest numbers. I'd like to see a better balance and have a few units at least managed for real trophies (in my mind there is currently only one unit in the state).

The shooting young bucks issue is a tough one - on public land people think "oh if I pass him the next guy will just shoot him", so they all get shot and it becomes the tradgedy of the commons because of the # of tags available.

In Texas (and to be clear I am NOT advocating Texas as the right example to follow) - but in a few counties where young buck over-harvest is a problem they have instituted minimum spread requirements for harvest. It is a blunt tool, but guess what average harvest age and antler size shot up quickly. Not sure this is the answer but is shows how quickly things can change when you stop shooting the young deer.

In some units harvesting 1 and 2 year old deer is a worthy goal and fine - lots of people deserve the opportunity to hunt and not everyone can kill a trophy every year - the resource is too limited. But dang, can't we have at least a few REAL trophy units????

 

[PAblackbear]

All valid points. I would gladly shoot a doe instead of a forkie or small 3 point any day. I'm in it for the meat, as a lot of guys are. A deer is a deer. Unfortunately, we can't hunt doe down here.

 

[RabidRattleSnake1]

I posted this originally because I love the idea of being able to hunt more as well as provide an opportunity to improve the land for the deer (as well as other animals). 8 hours of volunteer time is not a lot and if it provides for better deer hunting (numbers of animals and size) I am all for it. As far as taking 2 deer in 3 years it is kinda a non-issue for me. With the bow in this state you are lucky to go 1 for 3. The program seems like a win-win situation for all involved. Just wanted to feel out the guys here on MM for how they feel about the program.

 

[kysersosay]

Hey Rabid- I dig this thread and this conversation.

I started a new thread with this. I'm not trying to hijack your thread, just trying to focus the topic anew and get some new folks looking at it.

DHP for NM? continued...
http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID34/899.html

 

[RabidRattleSnake1]

No problem. I would love to keep the conversation going and hope something comes of it.

 

[stevie]

Are non residents eligible fo the program in Utah?