Deer vs. Mt Lions

[sageadvice]

This topic was getting started on another thread but i think it deserves a thread of its own,...So;

I sent letters to our fish and game, talked to Biologists and wardens, talked to some suits in Sac, coresponded with the Mt Lion foundation, even sent the below "Letter to the Editor" that was published and distrubuted through out N.Eastern Kali



----- Original Message -----
From: sageadvice
To: Debra Moore, Editor
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 4:02
Subject: DEER vs MOUNTAIN LIONS, letter to editor

"Hello, I am a very concerned and involved, 4th generation, Calif.. hunter and fishermen. My family once owned ranch lands now referred to as the land bank, currently owned by the east bay regional park on Morgan Territory rd., in Contra Costa County. I was a Agriculture major at Livermore high and the University of Arizona where I studied Natural Resource Recreation.

Twenty years ago, I moved to Plumes Co. to further enjoy the outdoor opportunities this area has. I have spent countless hrs in our national forests, private ranch, farm lands, and timber co. holdings. Hunting, fishing, camping, mushrooming, firewood cutting, or simply just to explore for new areas by taking a hike. My family vacationed here near Chester during the 60's and 70's for a month every year. Then, I counted as many as 200 deer on a evening ride to a small lake for some fishing and nowadays may not see a single deer taking the same drive 5 times. The habitat, amount and quality has changed little in this area. The dept. of F & G's blanket statement that the loss of such habitat and the encroachment of man on the deer's environment as the reason for the admitted declining #'s, is insulting and a down right lie. This may be or is a factor, but a small one. Deer thrive close to populated areas. It is in the traditional backwoods habitat, where they co-exist with predators, that are becoming barren of deer. I could go on and on, but I'm limitated by space, looking for someone who cares enough. Enough to take the blinders off and go out on a limb, who knows how, to help make a difference.

We need to better manage our wildlife. We can do this in a big way by lowering the amount of prey animals that depend on deer for their food. The 1970's ban on hunting lions has run it's course, caused their numbers to increase to where I have seen 4 in the last 2 years, while only seeing 1 in the other 40+ yrs in the outdoors. Now, Game Wardens, other hunters, and ranchers agree that there are way too many big cats through out N. eastern Ca. Our deer #'s are getting to the point that deer in some areas may become extinct. It's time or past time to properly manage California's lion population. I don't advocate killing all the lions but we need to balance their # to the point that we have both a healthy deer herd and their predators. Man has this ability. I for one believe it is our duty.

You as a f&g supporter or as a group can support or encourge the people in charge of the wildlife in our state to make the changes nessasary to implement a balanced predator-prey ratio program by contacting our fish and game, state officials and biologists. Objections, yes there will be some, but it absolutely needs to be done It's got to be done, I don't want to be telling my grandson yrs from now about the time when I saw the last deer in these hills."


Well, i did get some people stirred up alright, guess how much actually got done...meetings and more meetings, you guys may even have attended some. End result, no change. They don't want to talk Lions, anything else, fine, they say, they can't do anything about the lions, They said of the vote years ago, "THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKE."

I'm open to suggestions and more than willing to help in getting this matter put right,

Joey

 

[eelgrass]

Joey, I commend you for your efforts. Your letter was very well written and presented.

So I wonder. What WOULD it take to start managing lions? Lion hunting was banned through a direct vote of the people. Would it take another statewide vote to reinstate hunting them again?

Eel

 

[sageadvice]

Eel, It's been awhile since i knew that answer for sure. I'll say that it's going to take a 2/3's vote but not sure of that, pretty tough to get.

The Lion Foundation said that they understood that the deer were going "out of control" population wise, again, no clue. The guys that have spent time in this country know, the Fish and Game Dept's know, the hunter that gets lucky in the draw feels cheated, but to actually get something done... The issue has to be made public, there is going to be major oposition from some segments, but the issue has to be made something like this;

Do you want to let the predators go unchecked until they completely go through their food sources?

Thanks for the kudos Eel, i enjoyed my wildlife studies in school and still do but it's clear to see, i spent too much time majoring in Middle Linebacker and minoring in girls. lol

Joey

 

[Wiszard]

Joey- You did what most of us ought to. If more letters like that were written the message would be more widespread that lions need to be put in check before it is too late. Not many want to hear about these kind of issues. Most think that if it is the law, then it must be good. Not too many know the facts that deer herds are in trouble. When the deer start to disappear due to the dwindling herd, those lions surely will be visiting our towns and cities that back up to their living quarters to find food. I hope not...but I think for the masses to understand the problem, a child or two will be killed by one of these lions. Then, people eyes will be opened and maybe realize that these lions need to be put in check. Lets hope it doesn't come to that.

Steve

 

[sageadvice]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-08 AT 09:54PM (MST)[p]Thanks Steve, I wrote that letter to the Editor a couple years ago and i thought at the time that it may already be too late to bring, reverse the trend, the numbers of deer back up to average levels in my lifetime. I worked on getting the word around and answered a bunch of e-mails for about a month. Bottom line IMO, it's going to take one person with a lot of power or a whole bunch of people with connections and support from our fish and game dept. Right now, their heads are buried in the sand, feel their hands are tied, they don't seem to even want to try to remedy the situation. They blame the lowering #'s on the declining bitterbrush and lack of forest fires. Yeah!, Ha!Ha!

Hard to believe that my message or others similar, don't make sence to everybody, anybody concerned with a healthy Mule deer population, let alone the animal rights, nature...

Save the lions, let them eat deer. What happens when there's no more deer in our backcountry? Oh Well??...Boggles my mind!

Any ideas guys?

Joey

 

[eelgrass]

Here is one of the problems. In todays "hyper sensitive nature save everything" world in which we now live, it would literally be political suicide for any elected official to come out in favor of "murdering" a poor mountain lion. We have to remember, this is California.

If we need a 2/3 majority vote to reinstate lion hunting, we're done before we even get started.

You may notice that a lot of good blacktail hunting is on private ranches. Private ranchers, I think, must have some way of repelling lions off their ranches. Just a rumor, you understand.

Eel

 

[Wiszard]

Eel- you are right. Private ranchers do have a way of repelling lions off their ranches. They shoot on sight! I think we all know they do...or most of them do. I know if I owned a piece of land and I spotted a lion on it, I'd shoot it, let it lay or toss it under a bush to rot and never say a word. I know it would be against the law but so is speeding! I think some things just need to be handled. I'm sure most of these ranchers have cattle, goats or what have you. If their was a lion around, you know it's killed some of the ranchers livestock. A guy has to protect his property.

I think you guys are right about not being able to get that law reversed about the lions being protected. It would be political suicide. Most politicians don't have a clue and would not want to rock the boat. It is a shame.

Steve

 

[sageadvice]

I hear you fellas but, It's one thing for someone to say they would shoot on sight but another to actually do the deed. A guy never knows, while he is hunting public property, exactly who is watching you through their high dollar bino's or even worse, a telephoto camera lense. The fine is set at 10K and up to a year in jail. Nothing to sneeze at not to mention possible loss of hunting prevliges. It get done plenty, i'm sure, especially on private lands but much of the area i'm refering to is BLM or Forest Service Property...and even on private properties, a mountain lion is extreemly tough to find or see, let alone hunt without dogs.

In 1972 Ron Reagan signed a Bill banning hunting Mt Lions in Ca.
In 1990 Prop 117 made the Bill permanent
In 1995-1997 efforts to repeal including Prop 197 were defeated.

Seems wildlife, other than that of the lion, had little to do with the efforts to repeal the ban. Most in favor cited the huge increase in the cats #'s and potential danger to humans as the reason to hunt them again. Some hikers were attacked, couple killed.

The anti's claimed that problem cats already could be killed under the old law and that it was a bill cleverly concieved by "Trophy Hunters" so they could brag of killing a lion.

That's been over 10 years ago now and several more generations of mountain lions and lord knows how many less deer in the woods later... status quoe. The ban has run it's course, people need to know.

Joey

 

[Model_70_Guy]

When
>the deer start to disappear
>due to the dwindling herd,
>those lions surely will be
>visiting our towns and cities
>that back up to their
>living quarters to find food.
>I hope not...but I think
>for the masses to understand
>the problem, a child or
>two will be killed by
>one of these lions. Then,
>people eyes will be opened
>and maybe realize that these
>lions need to be put
>in check. Lets hope it
>doesn't come to that.
>
>Steve


Steve,
It has aready come to that just a few miles from my house here in Orange County. Last year a hiker / jogger not sure which was killed by a smaller lion and it attacked two others after it killed the man. It's scary when it gets close to where you live..

Jim

 

[Wiszard]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-08 AT 12:41PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-08 AT 12:40?PM (MST)

The odds of seeing a lion in the hills is extremely low. How many years have we all been hunting and seen a lion in the wild? I have been hunting for 25 years and have never seen one in the wild. Chances are I never will. You raise a good question, Joey. How many of us would shoot? I really think it depends on the situation. This is probably not the place to talk about these things this in depth. I certainly don't want to ever incriminate myself as someone who would do such a horrible act! Something needs to be done to change that law. Even offering 10 mountain lion tags statewide would do something. That will probably never happen though....not until "they" think it is right.

Steve

I guess if you did get caught shooting a lion, you could always say you were scared because it was running at you looking like it was going to eat you!!

 

[sageadvice]

Steve, I've had several chances to thin them and didn't squeeze the trigger. The last time, i was comming home from a hunt near Burny Ca. and on Hwy 44 near Old Station, a cat crossed the road about 600 yds in front of me in this big sage flat. My .280AI though not loaded was on the seat next to me and a round was plenty handy. When i pulled over near where he crossed, i could see the cat walking 100 yds away through the sage as if i wasn't there. No cars in sight either way and not a lot of traffic on that road anyway. I watched him through my glasses for about 5 minutes, the whole time thinking yes i should, no i shouldn't. It's a really tough call.

Aside from only hunting during the open seasons, I was no perfect saint as a youngster running the hills on our family cattle ranch. But as i matured, my values changed, and i've worked hard to be able to honestly say that i haven't broken any rules or Fish and Game laws in many many years now. Even though it needs doing sometimes, it's against the law. To each his own i suppose and i won't condem those that choose to help thin those that need thinning.

I think that if the average person, some anti's included, knew the status of the N. Eastern Calif. Mule deer herds, the impact that the lion has had on them in particular but other deer herds in general, they could rationalise that some measure to thin the increased lion population is needed. That knowledge is not comming from our Fish And Game Dept.

Another thought. Lions are being reported right here in my little mountain town. Several in the last year. A friend of mine heard a hella ruckus in his back yard going on with his dog. He opened his back door just in time to see a big lion clear his 7' cyclone fence with his female lab gripped by the neck in the cats jaws. This happened and is happening more all the time.

Joey

 

[Wiszard]

I don't blame you for not shooting that cat that crossed the road in front of you. Way too hairy!! We have lions coming down into our homes on the south end of our town. There are a lot of deer that come down and feed on the flowers and such. The cat (s) are able to prey on them rather easily. The deer are in no way tame but are used to seeing cars and people. I think they just feel comfortable there and the cats know that. There have been 8 instances where either a cat has been seen or there have been fresh remains of a deer in a backyard in this particular neighborhood. They've been spotted in the day buying a kill. That is the scary part. I'm not sure if F&G was called or not as I did not live there at that time. I did live there for about two years then moved about a mile North of that. The cats will be where the food is and where it is easy pickins. The sad thing is that they don't utilize their entire kill. I've seen fresh kills where only a fron quarter and a hind quarter was ripped off and the rest was left. Maybe he/she was coming back for it later. I don't know. Our hands are tied and nobody will do anything about it. That is why I think it will take a child or two in order to get people attention.

Steve

 

[sageadvice]

Yea, good points Steve. I think that there are more deer living within 1 mile of Walmart in Susanville that the whole vast area that i covered hunting X5a in 2005. In Many area's i've been, deer are crowding civization. Many a time i've gotten done with a two or three day hunt in the backcountry where i saw very little sign and practically no deer, only to get close to town and find a small group or two bedded under trees in someones yards. The survivors are getting smarter, knowing that it is safer closer to housing or living on the golf course.

That in itself is a Major problem. The deer are where people can see them. Average Joe doesn't spend hardly any time in the traditional habitat of a vast deer herd. That's were the numbers are way, way down. Who wants to hunt backyard deer? Not me anyway, i want to be up in those mahogany ridges, glassing down into those Quakie pockets and bitterbrush choaked draws. Even if it's only a half mile from the truck, that's where i want to be.

Anyway, if Average Joe people, voters, are seeing deer in peoples yards, how they going to believe that there are only a small fraction left of what there used to be when in some cases even that's an understatement at best.

Joey

 

[Wiszard]

They probably figure if there are deer all the way down into town, they figure that there must be a ton of deer in the backwoods.
I can't wait to get out there, Joey. Your description of what is around you while hunting gets my blood pumping. I hunt in a different scene than you but still, I can picture it. Only a few more weeks until bow season. Hopefully, I'll get the opportunity to draw on one of those velvet beauties!

Steve

 

[eelgrass]

When a lion attacks a human in California, which has happened on several occassions, the offending lion is tracked down and killed. And that's the end of the story. On top of that, usually much of the blame is put on the person attacked. They were the one doing something wrong. California is a crazy place!

About 10 years ago I found a beautiful spot to hunt blacktails. It was near Forest Glen, a little wide spot on Hwy. 36. There was a logging road that went up the mountain to two 40 acre clear cut blocks. Both cut blocks were surrounded by old growth timber. Near the bottom, where the road started, a big Fir tree blew down and prevented 4-wheelers from getting by. It was about 3/4 mile straight up that road to the cut blocks. Everytime I hiked up there I would see 8-20 deer out feeding in the three year old cuts.

For two years I hunted it exclusively, taking 2 bucks each year. The third summer I hiked up there to check on "my" herd. I saw many deer with a couple huge 3X3s in velvet. Couldn't wait for opening day! I kept this place such a secret my wife didn't even know exactly where it was. LOL!

Finally opening day came and I couldn't find a deer! Very little fresh sign. I went home scratching my head. The next week-end, same thing, nothing! I decided to walk through the middle of one cut (something I never did) and I found a very fresh lion kill. About 100 yards farther and I found another one even fresher!

That was the end of that! I know they didn't kill all the deer but they sure ran them out! That place never did recover, and eventually the undergrowth got too thick for deer or me. I'm still looking for the next honeyhole but doubt if I'll find another like that.

Sorry, I guess I just needed to vent a little.

Eel

 

[sageadvice]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-08 AT 04:29AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-08 AT 04:12 AM (MST)

Exactly fellas, we three are on the same page.

Eel, Don't worry about the vent, i do it, everybody who hunts Kali probably does it. Nice to hear your story even if it has a sad ending. You told it well!

So, We have come full circle. I and others on the other thread, have told of very decreased #'s of deer, especially Mule Deer in our "Premium Areas".

I tried and tried to get a "movement", sorry for the expression, started a couple years ago. I recieved plenty of positive feedback but no real help.

The Fish and Game Dept is Mum on the word. A direct Question is often answered with partial truth or evation of the obvious. They sell Deer Tags, they don't want a big source of their budget getting shut down. "Deer, oh, their numbers are down a bit, it's cause we put out forest fires, decreased quality of habitat, incrochment on their habitat, the weather was wrong when you were there..." These guys are our friends, but they are not being straight up with us outdoorsmen, yet.

We three have discussed the topic and agree that a balanced predator/ prey program would be a very possible way to help many of the deer herds that are in trouble. The system is in place with the DFG and there are people out there who would willingly pay guides, houndsmen to take a mt. lion and Deer hunters, to have a lion tag in their pocket while in the woods.

It makes sense that if it were put to the average person that they must choose to let the mt.lion multiply and quite possibly destroy many of Kali's deer herds, or, repeal the ban so the Fish and Game Dept can start a comprehensive program to bring the cats numbers down. This action possibly helping to restore deer to their native habitats, give them a chance to rebound, they might well choose to try and restore the deer.

Now latly, we were talking about why the voters won't believe that there is a problem with the deer in the first place cause they see them in their or others backyards, in private lush alfalfa fields, or on the edge of town. Also, they never get out in the backcountry or up in these public areas that not too long ago supported hundreds, are now practically barren of deer.

Then there's the fact that "Problem lions", the ones that attack people or domestic animals, can already be destroyed, even if it's after the encounter and these attacks are likely going to be more often and very likely to include children.

So, a bill or law to repeal the ban on hunting lions is not likely to come to pass.

The reasons, the way the hand of cards plays out, is the reason that i kinda let my involvement, to see change before its too late, dwindle down to casual conversations between us guys that hunt or spend time in the areas of concern. We all agree that something NEEDS to be done. It's just HOW it's going to get done that's hard for me to figure. Any help appreciated.

Sometimes i love living in Kali, especially the N Eastern part, other times, i just hate it.

Joey

 

[eelgrass]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-08 AT 09:07AM (MST)[p]Joey, you know, I really do think that most Fish and Game people understand our plight. They just can't publically come out and tell hunters to take out cats when the opportunity arises. I think plenty of wardens out there would look the other way if and when they could. I'm more afraid of "big brother" reporting me, in which case a warden would be obligated to investigate. In other words, I doubt there are wardens out there specifically looking for lion poachers. They would just as soon not hear about it.

The trouble is, the occasional "poacher" will never really put much of a dent in the population. Cats are just too elusive and nocturnal.

Eel

Edit: One thing we could do is take a page out of the enviornmentalists' book. Get organized and get good speakers and hold rallies to draw media attention. The more outrageous the better. Dress up like deer and march on Sacramento. Dress our kids up as poor little fawns that have lost their mother, and carry big banners. Burn paper mountain lions in effigy. Be seen every time a cat takes a pet or attacks a human, and make a big demonstration. The media loves stuff like that. It sure works for Earth First and other organizations.

 

[nickman]

Guys, this has been an excellent read and I wholeheartedly agree with everything you have stated.

The one thing you are all missing, is the fact that the people who push these laws into the books in this state, do not care about deer. Period.

They believe that deer are simply targets for hunters and they would just as soon there weren't any left...deer or hunters, especially hunters. They are convinced that deer numbers will come back after THEY eliminate deer hunting on California public land.

On the other hand, the mountain lion is a "regal' beast, whose habitat we have destroyed and should forever be protected. If, on occasion, a lion attacks a hiker, biker or camper, that cat should be relocated.....not killed.

Greenies and pro bono lawyers meet daily to invent legislation to stop all manner of things involving the "blood sports" on public lands, pets on public lands, atvs' on public lands .....and on and on and on......

These Greenies will NEVER accept our side of the arguement and since they outnumber us 10 to 1, nothing is ever going to change in our favor. They control California politics and are clearly holding Federal politicians by the short hairs as well. Hence the no oil exploration and drilling mandates.

 

[sageadvice]

Eel, Sounds like you been doing some talking to wardens and biologists also. I got the same drift from those that i personally spoke with and even from those that spoke at meetings that i attended. Can't say that they encoureged us to take matters into our own hands but they acted as if they knew it was going on and they weren't too awful concerned about it.

Probably, like anything else to do with enforcement officers, would depend on the individual officer responding or that caught you in the act. A seasoned vet who's been around long enough to also be concerned about the dramatic turnaround in deer #'s, might be inclined to not find enough evidence against you, stern warning. Then, on the other hand, a newer, lots of them are, gun hoe type might make case, a rightious bust of the offender, himself into hero type glory, self induced fame... sadly, he would still be doing his job.

Overall though, i believe you're right!

Your edit, i found very interesting, some useful ideas, some positive stuff there. You said it first! Thank you!

Joey

 

[Wiszard]

Nickman- They do outnumber us 10-1. How can we compete with them? I think eel had a good idea about dressing up like deer and protest that we (the deer) are being raped, murdered, robbed and taunted by the crips and bloods (mnt lions) in our community. Who is to protect the deer from these lions that prey on everything and anything. I think that would go over pretty good in Sacramento. We could dress the mnt lions up like gangsters with their baggy pants down past thier ass, a red bandana, white shoes, and tattoos of mexican women on their arms and backs....can't forget the Raider flags!!
Sorry, eel, I kina hijacked your idea and ran with it. I hope you don't mind. I'm a little bored!!

Steve

 

[sageadvice]

Thanks nickman, Your post is greatly appreciated, thanks for the additional perspective. I have though often thought on just what you are saying here. Yes, we didn't, or i didn't cover it in these breif discussions. In defence, i guess i give to much credit for humans to be able to reason.lol

Why can't "they" put their bias against hunters aside for the good of wildlife? We pay for most of the programs and support the policies that allow us to even have the abundant wildlife in Calif that we do have. The only thing they got control of is the lion hunting...look what good that got done, what it's doing to our deer herds.

Outnumbered 10-1? i think... maybe not. Believe i got your point but here's mine. I don't have on hand the number of hunters and fisherman plus their family members or friends that may not hunt but support those that do, but that number is plenty extensive.

The true anti, yes lots of them also, no argument, at all.
My point, IMO, there are a lot of voters in the middle, don't know, don't really care. If the issue was put before them, all the issues, in a no BS manner, lay the cards on the table, i give people credit that they "might" find "reason" to put a end to the ban on taking mt lions. Pretty funny huh? What can i say, my glass is half full.lol

nickman, i just don't get over your way. I understand that you been known to get around some for many years in some awful good country. Could you please give us an idea, your thoughts, opinion, on what effect, if any, that mt lions have had on the deer or deer herds in your area?

Joey

 

[eelgrass]

nickman, you're right. The nature fakers don't care about deer. They will just say that deer and predators have been living in "harmony" for thousands of years. And man upsets that "harmony." Their whole approach is a hands off approach.

They gladly go to the free health clinic and to the free food bank, and then jump into their smoke belching Volvo and pick up their welfare check, then off to the next demonstration against the rotten oppressive establishment.

Wiz, LOL! Let's get together and organize a march! I bet we make the national news!

Eel

 

[nickman]

I usually end up getting spanked on here when I state my opinions.

Bottom line; there has been zero habitat encroachment by man in a very large area of the Eastern Sierra for half a century.

Deer populations have plummeted and the statistics show, there are fewer and fewer bucks taken by hunters.

Deer counts are lower every year.

We have not had a winter killed...starved ...deer in many, many, years.

In the Inyo National Forest, there are 2 fulltime government trappers. What do you suppose validates full time employment for these guys?

Must be some reason that ALL these things are a reality.

The standard DFG biologist's answer is "loss of habitat"......that won't hold water around here.

 

[califhuntn]

Gentlemen,

Everything each one of you have stated are the true facts. Eelgrass is dead on about our Hyper-sensitive and very miss informed society here in Kali. We need to get this message out there. It is long overdue and we need to speak up as hunters and members of this state too. Kali is a beautiful state with natural resources that can be shared by all kinds.

Our message can not be self-serving at all and needs to focus on the facts and how we have not followed our own conservation program fundamentals. We have not attempted to or have not tried hard enough to educate the general public about the facts. As a results the large prey species have been adversely affected.

The bottom line is as conservationists we attempt to manage 95% of the wildlife species, both predator and prey species, and completely pay no regard (by protecting) to the second highest predator species on the food chain here in Kali, man being the highest. We have allowed the mt. lion to run unmanaged thus disturbing the base fundamentals of a conservation program.

We as hunters in this state can unite but that probably won't cut it we need a NAME that can start by capturing the attention of the public. One who can educate the public and show them by thinking rationally and logically instead of emotionally we can help correct our current conservation program.

All we are attempting to do is to start managing a predator species that has gone unchecked for over 38 years and has changed a once very promising wildlife program. I truly believe Kali could have been quality state to deer hunt. Just my rant.

JR

 

[nocalhonker]

I think our only chance is to try to get it passed that DFG is responsable to manage all wildlfe by what they feel is the best method. Don't even mention MT. Lions. That or we tell So Cal they don't get anymore water from the north until they let fish and game manage our wildlife hehehe!!!!!! NOcalhonekr

 

[sageadvice]

nocalhonker, Blackmail eh? Might be a point to consider later on once we get attention out there that somebody is trying to get something done. But ah, ah, thanks for chipping in!

Nickman, Thank You! your points are well taken. I thought as much of your local areas too but being there's plenty to roam and some that i've yet to see up north here, i just didn't know. Please feel free to chip in where another view might need looking at. No offence intended but you have a knack at seeing the other side of the coin while "heads" is showing. Nothing the matter with that.

Califhuntn, You are new to me so i took the liberty to find a passege you wrote in responce to someone talking, in a joking way, about their own needs and feelings.

Califhuntm said in responce;
"I guess because Cali has such a large population it is magnified. Yeh I'm a Bay Area HUNTER that loves California and would not trade it for anything in the world. I'm in a very small minority that feels that California has the potential to be considered one of the best places in the U.S. to hunt. It is already one of the best places to fish. But we need to stick together and pressure our DFG to do more for our wildlife and support them in any way we can. We need to support orginizations that do a lot for wildlife here as well. I know we are fighting an up hill battle with all the radical liberals and tree huggers but California can be much greater than it already is. It is not like this state could not afford the kind of revenue that Colorado or Montana draws every year from outside hunters. I could go off more than I already have. Where else can you hunt Rcky Mt Elk, Roosevelt Elk, Tule Elk, Mule Deer, Blacktails, Antelope, Desert Bighorns, Black Bear, Wild Pigs, Geese, Ducks, Quail, Dove, Chukar, Pheasent, Turkey, Coyote, Bobcat and Lions (damn I forgot). Let's stick together and make this state or kids can brag about and nonresidents dream about hunting. You get the point."


Your responce the the above topic and that of this thread was pretty darn impressive, to this ol boy anyway, and i'd like you to further consider being part of "getting done what needs doing" or whatever might become of this little get together and discussion toward putting the balance back in our wildlife program.

I agree that the message needs to "not be self serving and focus on the facts." As much as i think i'm a pretty good hunter and know the kind of excessive drive that i have had for many years now, i'm much more interested in the future of the deer herds than there being a big one for me to get when i go. All of us may be induced or forced to sacrafice some to benifit all.

Facts. Facts might be a little hard to come by...at least our own facts. There are some that are compiled by DFG that may be available. Not sure that those compiled by them would be considered valid even if we could get their assurence that they were the latest and greatest. Remember, they have a huge stake in this as well. Facts...tough one, think more on that one later.

Anyway guys, so far, so good. I hate not doing anything about this most passionate of issues. Something needs to be done and if you want, maybe we could get a core group together, get up a well written flier, take a day and maybe delegate help from others to hit bullitin boards across the state, either to serve notice that we're comming or to let people know that there really is an issue that need dealing with before it too late...??

As far as a name, a couple ideas; "Conservationists For Wildlife"
or maybe something like, "Californians for Wildlife" jut a couple, i'm sure there could be better.

Joey

 

[Califelkslayer]

Ditto everything above!!

I'm not sure about the 2/3rds vote part though. Voted in by over 60% back in 90. Wouldn't it take another vote, 50.1 % to over turn????

If you remember during that ballot measure, the antis portrayed the lion as the victim. The pro-huntin crowd tried to convince voters it was best by using science. I wrote letters to the editor and most responses in this country were anti-lion.

To convince the average voters, the Proposition committee should have shown the funeral of the woman in Kool, Ca that got killed the year before. Kids crying, everything. Playing with the gloves on, especially in Politics, will result in defeat.

As said before, some F&G people know the problem and are sympathic. Wouldn't risk running into the wrong one though. I've seen 2 lions while hiking the hill behind my house since 04.
Neighbor has hounds and treed 4 in one year, started the dogs from his house every time.

Had a woman working @ the prison call me a few years ago. She got to the parking lot @ 5:30 and was sitting there waiting for 6:00. Saw a lion walk behind her car. Few minutes later I got a call from the inmate fire camp. A lion had walked through the camp. I called 4 F&G numbers and was told they couldn't do anything. BUT a few hours later, I got a call back from a F&G guy that was pretty eager to do something. I gave him the info and never heard back.

Bottom line, apply out of state where they control lions.

 

[elknut209]

what I dont understand is why do they let the public vote on wildlife issues should ii be left up to the biolgist for the right ratio of cats. The people that voted agenst killng them all live in the city and have idea the effect it has the game pop. after 20 years of hunting in cal last year was my time I saw a cat and at only 10 yards. That cat was big cause in 6 stides it was at 100 yards and gone, the paws where 6 1/2 " that year I saw only 4 bucks on that mountion and year befor there was over 20. I saw what they can do first hand to a area. I only wish he would have given me chance to shoot him.

 

[CAforkedhorn]

Hello fellas, I have rarely ever posted on here, but this one strikes a nerve with me. I no longer hunt Cali for the simple reason that there is no deer here. When I first began hunting for deer about 13 years ago, I went the first 4 years without even seeing a legal buck, and after that when I did it was on private property so I couldnt shoot. Eventually I realized after talking to some old timers that the mountain lions truly are the cause of the MASSIVE decline in our deer herds. I decided that Cali would not be receiving anymore of my money, so I began hunting in Utah, where let me assure you that because they hunt lions that there are deer and elk everywhere. Now I know first hand and I'm sorry I have to keep my source anonymous that F&G wardens in general are just basically cops. The vast majority of them would gladly bust you for shooting a lion as they would get tremendous bragging rights just like a police officer bringing down a drug dealer. I am not at all saying that this is wrong as it is their job, just be careful in assuming that game wardens may turn the other cheek. Unfortunately it would take an extremely large amount of signatures on a petition to even get ballot consideration, and probably a 2/3 majority to pass. This is the price we pay for allowing environmentalist whackos to gain control. I am surprised we are allowed to hunt in Cali at all given all the San Francisco liberals running this state. That said I don't think it is too late to try to change, but it will take years to reverse the damage and bring back decent hunting. The key is to not make it about hunting though, we have to make non hunters aware that they cannot drive to the hills anymore and expect to see deer. The vast majority of people could give 2 sharts about mountain lions because first they are dangerous and second they are rarely seen anyway. We must make people believe that the Cali deer herds are becoming extinct and that if people want to be able to take their kids to see wildlife they better change the predation laws on lions.

I am here to help if anyone needs me it has to start somewhere.

thanks

Jason

 

[califhuntn]

Califelkslayer & CAforkedhorn I understand your frustration but that is exactly what we don't need. We need all the numbers and support we can get. I truly believe that most of the misinformed people of this state need to be convinced that there is a real problem and that it isn't just a bunch of hunters that want to kill poor mt. lions and have more deer to shoot.

We need to allow the state officials that are paid to evaluate wildlife populations determine a manageable hunting season that would maintain a balanced but controllable mt. lion population.

JR

 

[sageadvice]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-11-08 AT 00:20AM (MST)[p]Yes, this just can't be a situation where we all throw up our hands and say "Why try? There's nothing we can do about it." It's just Not acceptable any longer.

Caforkedhorn said;
"The key is to not make it about hunting though". We must make people believe that the Cali deer herds are becoming extinct..."

Yes again. in fact, some herds are or could become extinct, that's exactly the approach that we have been discussing here. Wouldn't it be nice to bring the deer herds back up again? Might take 10-15 years but F&G has accepted, currently reassesing, the declining downward trend as fate. Thank you for your support Forkie!

Elkslayer above said;
"To convince the average voters, the Proposition committee should have shown the funeral of the woman in Kool, Ca that got killed the year before. Kids crying, everything. Playing with the gloves on, especially in Politics, will result in defeat."

Some good points in your post even if you sound a bit defeated. That's easy for me to understand, you know what is "was" like and what it "could" be. Actually, related to the above, i've read much of the info for and against to get prop 197 passed and that's exactly, no 9" X 12" color pic's though, the approach they took to sound defeat. IMO, Man vs lion won't work. It's got to be Deer Vs. Lion... maybe a little human fear factor thrown in. The Anti's claimed, rightly so, that considering how many cats are out there, there is very few documented cases per capita where man has had serious life threatning encounters. Then also, the offending cats were destroyed. Basically, they caught the proponents of 197 in a situation where they could not back their claims with facts, they lost credibility, they lost the vote.

"If" we are to get a start, maybe get up a informational flyer throughout Ca, we are going to need more guys willing to help post and get others to help post in their areas. I'm willing to help with time and some money for materials, Boxes of paper. Does anybody have access to a serious printer at low or no cost? Open to ideas?? Chime in and be counted...you may only get one chance in this lifetime to save our states deer, it's fast becomming too late.

Joey

 

[Wiszard]

Joey- If a flyer were to be produced and there were means (funds) to get them out...just who would they be distributed to? There is no database for those that are pro-mt. lion. Where would you start? I assume a start would be all of the local Sportsmans Clubs...but where after that? Any ideas?

Steve

 

[sageadvice]

Steve, I don't have a plan, i have a need. We have a need. There are guys out there lots smarter than me but that doesn't keep me from seeing that something very important needs to be done. I know that i can not do this by myself but maybe a whole bunch of us could at least get the ball rolling??

Anyway, i see it something like this. You and 50 other guys across the state get a reem or two of 500 sheets each of copy paper with a cover sheet, true, factual informational flyer, to be duplicated. Once you get the copies, you may inlist the help of say, 5 buddies, and between you, post them where you think they might get noticed and read. I don't think putting them on windshied wipers at the Safeway is a good idea but maybe the cars parked at a schoolboard or city councel meeting...At the range, park bullitin board, notice board at work...

I remember that there was a Gun Control measure that was seriously going to curtail owning a gun, prop 13,15, 17? not sure but early 1980's. The word got out, more people turned out for that vote than any in history, at that time i believe, some kinda record. The normal guy that didn't ordinarilly vote showed up at the polls. He had had enough! The prop was soundly defeated, we won!
Same thing could possibly happen with this.

Joey

 

[CAforkedhorn]

Califhuntn wrote

" I truly believe that most of the misinformed people of this state need to be convinced that there is a real problem and that it isn't just a bunch of hunters that want to kill poor mt. lions and have more deer to shoot. "

That is precisely what I said in my post, I'm not sure if you misunderstood me. If the misinformed people of this state thought for one second that this was just a bunch of hunters wanting more deer to shoot, they would never change the law. We all know people that do not hunt and we need to be talking to these people and explain the problem to them and ask for their help as well to spread the word. Sure some people won't care but ask them when the last time they went camping was and how many deer they saw on that trip. From what I have read, the average lion kills one deer every week, which is 52 deer per year times the number of lions in the state. I am not 100% on this info but I don't think it matters much, people need to understand that when the deer herds are diminished the lions will still eat whether it be our pets or children. We need to bombard our state legislature with letters from people who want this changed.
Better still if anyone who frequents this website is involved in website design, we could sure use a website devoted to this issue.

 

[eelgrass]

The first thing we should do is find out what it would take to control lions in CA, so we can work toward that goal. Unless our goal is only to educate people to the problem.

Are there facts out there that prove our case? Can we show that lions are indeed decimating our deer? We need solid data of some sort. Along with verification that lions are indeed the cause. It seems the obvious place to look would be Fish & Game. For starters, I think they underestimate the number of Mt. Lions in CA. I forget what their number is, but it seems awfully low to me.

Next time I go to their office here in town, I'm going to ask to speak with a biologist, and will report back here.

Eel

 

[sageadvice]

Thanks Eel, You speak true, sound advice.

Though i truly believe in our F&G dept and hate to think where we would be without one, not sure that they have the kind of stuff we need, are looking for. Maybe, they might... it's worth a shot.

Joey

 

[need4x4]

I believe 2/3rds is only needed for new bond props.

I think it is simple majority on non-bond measures.

Lion hunting is catch and release in many instances with dogs. You don't kill every one you tree. In a net sense, it is the dumbest hunting to outlaw.

 

[Califelkslayer]

I don't think the object is to legalize huntin of Mountain Lions, but rather to allow F&G game to manage them through ANY method they see fit. They manage them now by killing the problem ones at great cost to us. I believe F&G would want the revenue and therefore sell tags with a quota like with bears.

 

[Blacktailslayer]

Very well written letter. I must say, you took a lot more initiative in actually writting the letter than just b*tchin' your head off like the rest of us, me included. The sad fact is, few of the people on the other side of the fence see it as anything but big bad hunters wanting more deer to shoot. Anyways, nice job on the letter.


...Remember with Lions the best policy is S.S.S.

(shoot, shovel, and shut up)

 

[sageadvice]

All good stuff Guys!

need4X4, I apoligise for not doing the google thing and look up prop 197 or other previous attempts to get management of lions back in force. I did read, remember something awhile back though. Hope i'm wrong and you're right. 2/3'rds is tough to get! Thanks!

Califelkslayer, 100% agree! The way we go about "saying it" could make a huge difference in getting people, voters, involved or willing to vote to manage. If the State was allowed to openly manage lions, they would certainly wish to charge and recieve a fee for allowing us to help participate...a win-win situation for our F&G dept, the deer, and eventually all the food animals that these predators prey on.

Blacktailslayer, Thanks for the kind words. Squeeky wheel gets the greese?, well, this wheel has been squeeking in my head for a long time now. Just feel that i have to do something. The alternative is unacceptable!

We need some more ideas guys! Thanks!

Joey

 

[leet]

It is too bad but the only answer I see is to plant all the lions you see. I know some folks taking this tack. Illegal but effective.

 

[nickman]

Well......I guess those folks that shoot them on sight gotta do what they gotta do.

Personnaly, bad as I hate them cats, I am not about to risk everything I own, my meager hunting privilages, my personal freedom or anything else, for shooting some stinky assed mountain lion.

There are WAY too many "Grannola eatin' tree faggots" around that would love to turn someone in for whacking a cat.

 

[mtnview]

The biggest hurdle with reversing California?s law on mountain lions is the electorate in California and the initiative process itself. The electorate is so liberal that as soon as they see paragraph declaring hunter or hunted, it immediately becomes such a negative concept that even sound science cannot over come their heart felt emotion. The initiative process has been viewed with quite a bit of skeptisism in recent years. Even the liberal anti?s are now facing some special interests group who through the initiative process are shoving things down their throat.

With a little money and a lot of lies you can convince the Californians to vote for just about anything that sounded good at the time.

Consider this: In the 1970's a governor name Jerry Brown installed Rosy and the Supremes to the California Supreme Court. The court was so liberal that all death sentences were overturned and our criminal courts were turned into kangaroo courts. Fast forward: In the last election guess who Californian?s elected to the TOP law enforcement position in the state,Jerry Brown, as Attorney General. The electorate is become more and more liberal and their memories have faded. The memory fade may be related to the Wacky-Tobacky they smoke for their medical ailments.

Just as their memories have come and gone on the law and order issue, their memories of people being mauled and killed by mountain lions have also faded. In the same story line they still see the buck deer in the backyard in November, so all must be good. ?Those hunters just want to come in my yard and kill that apple eat?n fella.?

In the times of thin budgets and falling revenue they also have forgot that under the Mountain Lion Initiative they pledged 30 MILLION dollars a year for 30 years, for special interest groups to buy land and set it aside for the ?specially recognized species? such as the mountain lion. I believe the first purchase they made was coastal land in Santa Barbara which benefitted some specie of song bird.

The other part of the proposition forbids legally harvested mountain lions to be brought into the State of California. Where the science in that you ask, well there is none. It is all heart felt emotion which was operating at the ballot box.

This was not meant to be a history lesson or a bashing of Californians. It is a demonstration of the liberal Californians whom we cannot overcome until the appropriate time and event, change of initiative process. There are too many people in big cities who really don't give a hoot, have short memories, and prefer to hide behind the meat processing plant who butchers, cuts, and wraps their meat on a nice styrofoam tray. It is through this they do not believe they have blood on their hands, and by-gosh taking the life of an animal is just wrong! Their hypocritic approach is appalling.

Yes, I used to be a California resident. I harvested a mountain lion last year in my new adopted home of Nevada and was almost made to feel like a criminal by Californian?s who should have known better. Questions like, ?Well aren't those endangered, and are their populations stable.? As you can guess, I was more than happy to defend my position.

I would gladly invest time and money into a successful approach to the problem, but as of yet even the big guns of wildlife, hunting, and conservation have not been able to develop a good approach.

I still enjoy the great outdoors and hunt in California, but you can only bang your head against the wall so many times before a bruise starts to form.

We need to change the process before we can change the law.

I don't know ?bout y'all, but my home is completely unaffected by any beef recall.

Okay, I'm done! S-S-S or B-B-Be Quiet

 

[sageadvice]

leet, I wish it were that easy. Taking the law into your own hands has proven to never be a very wise idea. That said, good hunting! lol

Nickman, Very well said. I think that you have expressed how many Calif outdoorsmen feel on the subject. i also weighed in with my feelings on the subject back up on post #7.

I'm of a mind that i don't really care who does the thinning. If it's just the F&G with their paid animal control crews, so be it. I have no desire to have/own a Mt. lion trophy. If given the chance to help and it were legal to do so, that's another story. I have a desire to see deer living, reproducing succesfully in their native habitat like they did before this absurd law allowing predators to run roughshod, unchecked until they starve, die off because all their prey animals have been eaten. We are fast becomming a state like some Nations with the sacred Cow... i mean, mt. lion.

mtnview, Than You for your offer of support! i appreciate your thoughts..You obviously have spent some effort and thought in our mutual goal of getting a balanced predator/prey program in force. The idea seems so simple, so reasonable, but i don't know very much about how the systen is, who runs it, or how it works. Your post helped to give further insight to the difficult task ahead of all California outdoorsmen "if" we are to save our Mule Deer herds from extinction and help our Blacktail populations that live on open to the public lands.

To the gang in general. Yes, i know, "extinction" is a real hard word to swallow. As of the way things are headed,IMO, it is Very Possible for just that to happen. Again, the word needs to be spread. People Need To Know!

Joey

 

[nickman]

mtnview............very insightful post.

Clearly, the hunting community's "big guns" have had no effect, even with all the money they have available.

As much as I hate to admit it, I don't see a change in the near future.

Unlike some folks in this state and some responders on this site, I won't give the DFG too much credit.

If you can find the spring 2008 issue of California Deer, the official publication of the Ca Deer Assoc., you will see a chart of the population of deer in each zone for the years back to 1990. This thing is so visibly flawed with population fluctuations, it ain't funny.

It is BS of the first order and anyone in authority who accepted it in the first place, was a bigger fool than the people who "supposedly" were in charge of the counts.

Just as an example; In 2006, they counted 2,850 deer in zone X9B. In 2007 they counted 4,660 deer in the same zone, with no decline in the numbers of deer in surrounding zones?

Hunters took 50 deer from a population of 4,660 last year, but managed to take 63 deer from a population of 2,850 the year before? Interesting?

Other zones in the same period, show increases or decreases of 3-5 percent either way ........not a 50 percent increase in one year, that was nothing special from a winter-spring standpoint.

Other zones in the Eastern Sierra region show some losses in the 50 percent range, in areas where not a single yard of land has been removed from the habitat for 20 years.

Somebody is doing these surveys from a hot tub at the Ramada Inn.....or I'm missing my guess!

 

[need4x4]

Nickman-

I understand your distain for the year to year number.

If you were able to talk to those who do the survey, they will say something like this.

Year to year, the survey is not accurate. It is the trends over many years that you can look at for actual data.
When wildlife counts are done, there is often flaws that you can see year to year.

I have helped on some studies in the past. They explained it to me that way. There is no cost effective way to measure the deer in a precise way, year to year. So, they survey and look at long term trends.

 

[eelgrass]

mtnview, thanks for the refresher course. I'm old enough to recall those days now that you remind me.

I have no idea how they count deer in the B zones. Most of it is so thick that 50 yards would be a long shot. I don't know how anyone could get an accurate count. I know from my own observations that the numbers have to be way down. At least on public land. But Fish&Game still allows two buck tags per year. How they justify that is beyond me. 55,000 tags available and only 3900 bucks reported harvested. They don't sell 55,000 tags but hunter success is only about 5-7%.

If any of us accidentally mistake a mountain lion for a deer and shoot the darn thing, forget the shovel part. Just turn and head off in another direction.

Eel

 

[mod700]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-21-08 AT 08:33AM (MST)[p] Great post guy's, i'm new to the m.m page, not in the woods.The same old song and dance of loss of habitat don't cut it...some of the country i've been stompin aroune in for 37 years hunt'n has not hardly changed, EXCEPT for the lack of deer.I think to with the bear numbers up so high it also effects the cat kill numbers. When a cat makes a kill and returns to feed, he sometimes find a bear on it, so he has to go kill again.A now retired warden out of modoc co. Cal Albright once said he knows the problem but his hands are tied.I don't know how many of you guys have seen a big cat up close, but they are built for killing.I helped a state trapper a few years back carry one in Butte crk. canyon, this thing weighed 97#s. on a scale but was killing 130# sheep and going over a fence with them.Like said above, all the huggers and average joes think deer numbers are fine because of all the "rural" deer they see.Our deer herd numbers will continue to fall, with the deer and us sportsman paying the price, untill we get the big cats numbers in check...My $.02
Mike

 

[manny15]

they stopped clear cutting back in the early 90's cause of the spotted owl (B.S).........not enough feed any more........selective cutting the norm, fire's outta help

 

[sageadvice]

Manny15 said;
"they stopped clear cutting back in the early 90's cause of the spotted owl (B.S).........not enough feed any more........selective cutting the norm, fire's outta help"


Manny, are you OK bud?

Joey

 

[manny15]

I'm fine thanks for asking, I only meant that it's another reason deer are on a decline, at least on the western deer heards, Mt. Lions ain't the only reason for the deer decline...

 

[manny15]

So tell me when was the last time a group of hunter got together and picketed the capital for a limited season on Mt. Lions ?...

case and point: used to be a muzz hunt on the horseshoe ranch, a ranch I grew up on in the C zone, after years of waiting I finally got drawn, who was there at the gate wating opening day, Protesters! my point, one day of protesting got that hunt shut down, one day mind you...

this was a 3500 acre ranch that was purchased with hunters license fees by the Fish and Game Dept. then they turned it over to BLM, then they turned it over to the protesters!

I used to write letters to The F&G Dept. Back in the early 90's asking for a B-point system for muleys.....even called the Commish once, long time com'in...

gotta get visable and fight back cause the fight is with people like PETA not DFG.......

 

[sageadvice]

manny said;
"So tell me when was the last time a group of hunter got together and picketed the capital for a limited season on Mt. Lions ?..."


I can see it now, couple hundred guys in cammo on one side of the street and several thousand tree hugging flower power children, screaming and yelling at us from the other. Time to break out the pepper spray!

Actually, if the event was during the off season, there are plenty of very concerned individuals out there that just might go for some type of rally. I've been up and down this emotional roller coaster several times in the last couple years,...Manny, I say we put you in charge! You da man!!

Joey

 

[manny15]

I ain't smart enough to put somethin like that together, but i do have a big mouth! and am willing to get infront with yah!

 

[JadgBob]

The people of California have also spoken when it comes to gay marriage. Twice to be exact. That still didn't keep a judge from stopping "the will of the people".
During the last 12 months I moved from Nor Cal to Idaho. As you already know the cats aren't the problem here, it's the wolves and a Fed judge out of Montana has stopped the state from managing the numbers. Hopefully, we as a group will wake-up and get involved politically before we all loss our ability to chose whether we hunt or not.
The mountain lion issue was just as big of an emotional farse as the wolf issue is today. I hope we have all learned from the wolf "re-introduction" and never just sit back and allow something like this to happen again. The RMEF is just as guilty as anyone for allowing this to happen and now the elk herds are suffering because of it.
Both the Cal lion issue and the Canadian Wolf introductions (you notice I used the correct terminology this time)are real pet-pevs of mine and get my emtions going. In both cases the professional wildlife managers have lost the ability to manage numbers. (I would like to push for the next Canadian Wolf introductions to be done in Golden Gate Park, the Portland/Seattle ares, and Central Park in New York City)
By the way, I believe Cal now has the wording in place to protect the wolf once it finds it way into the golden state. Good luck and get ready to loose more wildlife to predators.
--Robert

 

[sageadvice]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-19-08 AT 07:07AM (MST)[p]Ahh, Hey Bob, We understand your pains but keep the Wolf introduction ideas to yourself please. lol We already have enough problems with all the bears, yotes, and big kitty's running amuck through our game herds as it is.

Sounds like you have a major gripe as "we" all do. What we need is a plan of attack on getting the ban repealed, a answer that will work. Nice rant though! Come up with something solid and i'm sure we'd all be glad to hear it, may even put you in charge. lol

Time to move on this issue is running out. I'm very interested in field reports from our guys in the field this fall. Observe and compare, where ever and how ever possible, what game you are seeing this year compared to what you have seen in the same area in the past. Keep your eyes open. Spread the word! "Some" of these cats gotta go! Status Quo is not a option. If we care about our deer herds in California, we have to have a balanced predator-prey program in place soon!!!

Joey

 

[manny15]

Let me tell you what you need, you need a high dollar man, you know, the kind that buy up all the auction tag$ year after year putting his lawyer on the case with his $, then the average Joe can put his face & john Hancock behind it...

See, the PETA and the Like's have lots of $ and aren't afraid to use it for their cause.

so where's our superman?.......

 

[sageadvice]

Manny, Yes, that certainly would help our cause. a high dollar man!

Let me add that we could use a high dollar man with lots of juice in political circles and not afraid to use it. Maybe one with big stones, that everybody looks up to...yeah, somebody like that!


Unrelated; I did a map search last night on that country you mentioned up by the border. Do you get in the general area by going up into Oregon and then back down? Looked interesting w/ possibilities.

Joey

 

[manny15]

sent you a PM

 

[eelgrass]

Just for the record, there are studies being done right now with the idea of having a Canadian wolf population in NE California. I was reading it awhile back but I can't find the link. When I do I'll post it.

Eel

 

[manny15]

>Just for the record, there are
>studies being done right now
>with the idea of having
>a Canadian wolf population in
>NE California. I was reading
>it awhile back but I
>can't find the link. When
>I do I'll post it.
>
>
>Eel


wonderful, their in oregon already....

 

[sageadvice]

...and one of the saddest things is if they do get introduced or find their way to Kali, big $$$$ will have to come from F & Game funds...that come from us, to protect the dam things.

Between the Bears, Coyotes, Mt Lions, and now maybe the Wolves, it's gonna be slim pickins for them to find something to kill and eat...

Joey

 

[buckbuster64]

Lets go back to a five year season on cats with one tag per hunter,and i bet that the population & numbers of Deer will go up.Then we will find out who is right.As a hunter & a sportsman i always fallow the law as it is read,but i can defend myself in case of attack by a MT.Lion, it just depends on how many times i am attacked

 

[califhuntn]

Not to hijack this post but I have a question related to the title of this post. I was out archery hunting about 1 1/2 weeks ago in NE Cali.

I was walking down this road just about to venture off and into an area that looked bucky. I heard this comotion behind me about 100 yds away. I turned to see what I thought was a does running at full sprint. Then heard a noise that I have never heard before.

I noise first started right where I heard the original commotion. It almost sounded like an elk mewing but not quite. Then in the opposite direction of the other deer was this distressful screaming noise. I can't really describe it but the noise continued and was moving damn fast going from left to right. Whatever it was it was being chased.

Then about 150 +/- yds from the original starting point I heard the noise or cry but it changed. I could tell there was a struggle. The cry sounded muffled and I want to say I heard a growling noise or at least my mind wanted to hear ir.

Whatever it was there was definitely a struggle going on. My curiosity drew me towards the location but my better judgement & fear got the best of me. If it was a mt lion I didn't want to rely on my pepper spray.

After going back to the area later that morning I discovered buck tracks and then tracks of another animal that I could make out. So do deer scream or cry when being thratened why danger?

JR

 

[sageadvice]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-09-08 AT 00:02AM (MST)[p]Buckbuster, Yes indeed! Good idea on the 5 year season although this might be a case where more is better. Yes officer, i could see with my bino's that he was across the canyon but also i saw him licking his lips while he was looking at me. Scared me to point i felt the need to protect myself!

Good luck w/ that, never know, might work!


JR, easy to understand how and why you reacted as you did. 150lbs of kitty kat would be no fun to have to "deal with" at a moments notice. As to the some of noise you heard, Yes, deer make a distress call similar to rabbits, only more loudly and slightly deeper tone. I have even heard a full grown mature buck cry out when in pain. Sickening sound to say the least. I hope to never ever have to hear it again, but, sometimes it goes with the program, like it or not.

Joey

 

[buckbuster64]

The only thing(Sageadvice)one of these days there will be no deer left,then what do you think,or better yet what are they going to start eating?It may come down to more than self-def It may not be such a hard decision after all???????????????????????

 

[califhuntn]

Joey,

Thanks for the knowledge. My first instinct was a deer in distress.
It is just that I never heard such a sound before. I totally understand that it is nature and the whole food chain working but it was still pretty creepy hearing that because of the dead silence that morning just before the attack.

I can't help to think that it could of been me because I was just minutes from walking right towards the original ambush point. I'm kind of pissed because that cat took down a buck that I may have been able to take. I guess the better predator won that day. Take care Joey.

JR

 

[sageadvice]

BuckBuster said;
"The only thing(Sageadvice)one of these days there will be no deer left,then what do you think,or better yet what are they going to start eating?"


Buster, yeah, that's a good point and we covered it in the above posts pretty good, still it bears repeating. I'm not near as concerned with what the lions have to eat after the deer are gone as i am concerned with the deer being gone.

Is is right for us to standby and observe while one animal totally wipes out another? I don't think so, yet that is what we very well may be faced with in areas of prime deer habitat on public or public accessable ground here in California.

Joey

 

[califhuntn]

If a lion is shot in the woods and no one hears or sees it, is it really dead?

JR

 

[buckbuster64]

Right-on,Brother........you could be my huntnn buddy anyday

 

[Blacktailslayer]

What happened to the lion, sir?

I don't know, it tripped and fell... hahaha

 

[nickman]

You have a right to defend yourself from a lion attack.

I pretty much figure that if I SEE one while I am out and about....it is contemplating how it is going to attack me.

The ones that are out there 3 or 4 hundred yards are obviously making a serious move to get onto my backtrail and get me, so I just as well get them first.