Do good outfitters benefit from mandatory guide tags?

Outdoors · Apr 10, 2012

There are guides and outfitters in every Western state. Some guides and outfitters are great, some good, some average, etc. In those states that have mandatory rules do the better guides benefit any? Seems good and great guides will earn repeat customers and benefit from word-of-mouth advertising then book up their limited slots at a premium rate.

Does that mean that the less than stellar guides and outfitters get guaranteed business anyway? Or do better guides emerge to push out the less stellar ones over time?

I ask because I have read posts re NM and their subset of elk and deer tags that require a guide. A lot of hunters find it challenging to afford hiring guides on a regular basis if ever so they are effectively shut out of those tags. NM has a subset of deer tags that require a guide. OR has half of its non-resident elk and deer tags go to outfitters. MT has guide-sponsored tags. AK requires non-residents to use a guide on most big game hunts.

Then today there was some posts on WY and their big game hunting guide requirement in wilderness areas.

Your thoughts? Who benefits from dedicated subsets of guide/outfitter tags?

1911 · Apr 10, 2012

Whole thing is a racket designed to line the pockets of a few by artificially creating a supply/demand issue and holding NR's tags hostage IMO. It should be pretty obvious who the winners are. No doubt the same winners then in kind provide a quid quo pro through lobby efforts to those who protect them.

TOPGUN · Apr 10, 2012

I'm not in favor of any type of subsidy for outfitters/guides, including the requirement Wyoming has for NRs to have one for big game hunting in wilderness areas. If you run a good business, regardless of what it is, you should not need any help and all those subsidies are only helping below average operations to stay in business IMHO. You mentioned Montana, but if you aren't aware of it, they eliminated their outfitter sponsored tags last year.

Califelkslayer · Apr 10, 2012

+1 topgun

AWHOLELOTTABULL · Apr 10, 2012

A buddy of mine lives in Rawlings Wyoming and is a county sheriff there. He told me that he was never in favor of the mandatory guide thing until he got involved with search and rescue. Then it all became perfectly clear. The old saying that a man will never ask directions holds true for hunters especially. Their department and search and rescue lost over $400,00 last year alone on rescue missions involving lost hunters. It's a huge expense. Those areas that have mandatory outfitters in wilderness areas don't lose near the money that the others do. I would say that the people that benefit from it are the guys having to drag your lost ass out of there every time you think you know where you're going. I can only imagine how lost a person can get in Alaska. At least in the lower 48 you will hit a road eventually. It may be months before you hit a road in Alaska. I do think that outfitters benefit from it, and the good ones will keep guiding hunters because they offer a good reputable service. Just my thoughts on it though.

It's always an adventure!!!

theox · Apr 10, 2012

its a joke i totally disagree with allotting tags to the guided pools. we should not be forced to use outfitters. stupid NM gives more tags for outfitter NR pools than DIY NR pool. thats why i quit applying this year. they obviously dont want the DIY NR money very bad so they wont get mine.

TOPGUN · Apr 10, 2012

LAST EDITED ON Apr-10-12 AT 10:03PM (MST)[p]AWHOLELOTTABULL---Since there is no wilderness anywhere near Rawlins where anyone could have gotten lost, is he saying that all NRs should have guides everywhere in Wyoming because that's what it sounds like?

HayZeus · Apr 10, 2012

I have to agree. In Idaho there is only one guide allowed for certain established hunting areas. The state creates a monopoly by not allowing a free market to exist. Than tops it off by giving a percentage of the tags to the licensed outfitter. To make it even worse you have to have the outfitters permission before you can put in for the tag to try and draw it. Its just another way to sell tags to the highest bidder.
Idaho claims to have a system that is fair but there always seems to be a way to get around it for the few that can pay big money for premium tags. If someone wants to hunt an area and the outfitter cant book them their SOL. They need to allow more licenses to create more opportunity for people who want to hunt with a guide and make the outfitters draw out of a random drawing and compete with each other. When theres competition only the best and strongest survive.The state ran monopoly will never allow that to happen!

AWHOLELOTTABULL · Apr 10, 2012

Not at all TOPGUN. But he understands the financial reason behind the rule. He's a DIY guy all the way. I have to admit, if I was going to Alaska to hunt it would be awfully intimidating staring at a map of the area I wanted to hunt. I do hate the fact that I have to have a guide in Region H though. Maybe the key to this thing would be to have the hunter pay a certain fee to hunt wilderness instead of hiring a guide. "wilderness insurance"?

It's always an adventure!!!

1911 · Apr 10, 2012

>Not at all TOPGUN. But
>he understands the financial reason
>behind the rule. He's
>a DIY guy all the
>way. I have to
>admit, if I was going
>to Alaska to hunt it
>would be awfully intimidating staring
>at a map of the
>area I wanted to hunt.
> I do hate the
>fact that I have to
>have a guide in Region
>H though. Maybe the
>key to this thing would
>be to have the hunter
>pay a certain fee to
>hunt wilderness instead of hiring
>a guide. "wilderness insurance"?
>
>
>
>It's always an adventure!!!

Every year in Utardia the State and local counties spend a small fortune on lost hunters but guess what...the vast majority of them are residents, and most nowhere near a wilderness area. So in consideration of that, are we going to say this nanny requirement apply to residents and nonresidents alike anywhere? How about search and rescue deployments for people who are hiking, fishing, rock hounding, doing photography, going on a vision quest, metal detecting, snowmobiling, four wheeling, recreational shooting, bird watching, ect.? No doubt it cuts down on search and rescue costs. So would keeping everyone out altogether.

This is nothing short of I'll rub your back if you rub mine. America, land of the free, where you can roam about the country on public land and engage in lawful activities as long as you get the golden nod, and/or are willing to pay the big bucks for a high dollar baby sitter. Follow the money. I suspect it is more than lucrative for those in the outfitter business.

That is the financial reason behind it. In the end, the message is, if you are a nonresident and don't have the financial means, stay home...you are obviously too stupid to play in our playground right? Either way, the end result is the same.

And yes, there are other means to recoup search and rescue costs without creating a glory hole for guides. The beauty of this nation used to be it was a land of opportunity, risks, rewards, and you got to pick your poison and sleep in the bed you made. Now it seems it is a nation of litigation and nannys.

ShowThemToMe · Apr 10, 2012

I get the Feeling that there won't be many WARNING TICKETS wrote in Northern Utah this week!

[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]
If You Love Your Country,SHOW THEM TO ME!

It's been a long hard ride
Got a ways to go
But this is still the place
That we all call home

AWHOLELOTTABULL · Apr 11, 2012

I'll say Bessy! Remind me not to drive North today! I honestly think that we should make everybody have to hire a guide in every state. I'll get back into the business and maybe actually make some money then 1911!!

It's always an adventure!!!

DoeNob · Apr 11, 2012

"That is the financial reason behind it. In the end, the message is, if you are a nonresident and don't have the financial means, stay home...you are obviously too stupid to play in our playground right? Either way, the end result is the same."

They are pretty much doing that already with ridiculous tag prices, outfitter or no.

Deerlove · Apr 11, 2012

From NM forum Nah, we'll skip the points, thanks...you might also check out the Points States lately to see which ones 'guarantee' you a tag based on your point count.

Point Systems are a bit like a Pyramid Scheme...destined to fail, the lowest tiers incurring the greatest loss.

I opposed the idiot bill that cut y'all out from the get-go...I've always appreciated what our NR guests contribute to my state's budget, and I will continue working to ammeliorate the half-wit logic that led to the successful passage of SB 196.

I am a professional big game guide, and I STRONGLY disagree with the outfitter allocation by quota...its a frikken joke. If you can't pull in business by virtue of your merits as a top expert in your field, then you need to quit pretending, and get the hell out of the way.

The welfare subsidies don't give the good guys anymore business, but they sure seem to help the HACKS out there scrape their pathetic charades along for another year.
from NM forum

hank4elk · Apr 11, 2012

LAST EDITED ON Apr-11-12 AT 10:43AM (MST)[p]+1 Deerlove! I know some great outfitter/guides here in NM and most don't think there should be an outfitter allotment. There are some real bad ones unfortunately. And points are a total scam. "I drew such and such tag after collecting points for 16 years" Really? How much did that cost? Get rid of the OF allotment, clean-up the LO tag allotment. And apply with a good draw for 3rd choice and you will hunt here in NM. And if you want, hire a good guide and fill the tag!

1911 · Apr 11, 2012

>I get the Feeling that there
>won't be many WARNING TICKETS
>wrote in Northern Utah this
>week!

>
>
>
>[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]
>
>If You Love Your Country,SHOW THEM
>TO ME!
>
>
>
>
> It's been a long hard
>ride
> Got a ways to go
>
> But this is still the
>place
> That we all call home
>
>

If I was angry I would have been typing in all caps with a few of these !!!!

ShowThemToMe · Apr 11, 2012

No 1911!!!

If you were Angry!

You'd be giving people Autographs that read 1911!!!

[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]
If You Love Your Country,SHOW THEM TO ME!

It's been a long hard ride
Got a ways to go
But this is still the place
That we all call home

theox · Apr 12, 2012

+1 Deerlove i hope more guys like you try to stand up to it. sb196 turned me away from new mexico. like you said the OF tags are a joke! why are the outfitters on the DNRs payroll? why does the dnr owe the OF's a guarantee on work?

Jeff46 · Apr 13, 2012

I think when anybody comes to New York, Illinois, or Michigan, they ought to have to hire a guide to sit in the passenger seat when they drive in New York City, Chicago, or Detroit. It's dangerous, you know. Of course, only if you are shopping or going to a sporting event. If you're just sightseeing, you don't need one.