Do You Think it Really Matters?

[Broadside_Shot]

I had a question based on some comments from another post about a young girl killing a monster buck.

Do you really think that when a first time young hunter kills a monster buck that it really affects the way they view hunting in the future.

Just a couple of examples.

My son and his buddy both killed their first Antelope last year on the same day. One was considerably bigger than the other. Size was never even talked about between them and wasn't even an issue. They were both exstatic to take their first Antelope.

Then my son proceeds to shot his first buck deer this year, a yearling 2 point and is on cloud nine. He never looked at the fact that he killed a big Antelope the year before and then set his standands on something bigger or bust in the future.

I think he will eventually turn to wanting a trophy but him killing a 16" Antelope on his first try has not changed him to thinking he needs bigger the next time.

Just a question. I think us Adults add more to it than the kids even recognize. Right now my kids just want to have some success. Are they the norm? What do you guys think?

 

[mmwb]

It'll depend on the kid and the parents. I can't imagine my son would have been more excited to shoot a monster than the little one horned spike he did. Same with his antelope. Smaller than mine, bigger than his sisters. He was just stoked that he determined where they would be and did a lone stalk and set up to get his goat.

 

[Tristate]

Each kid is different and each experience is different, not just the antlers. You will have a wide variety of responses by children when they kill all sizes of all types of game. Some negative and some positive. Just remember what ever the outcome it will be all your fault. ;-)

 

[elks96]

So what really matters to me is the situation. i feel that if the kid has to work for the animal prior to taking it, it does not matter if it is a 2 year old or a beast. I do however have real issues with starting kids on canned hunts, and the idea that dumping money into an easy trophy hunt is wrong. For example, there is a kid on my wife's side of the family who wanted to go hunting when he turned 14. Since they were very wealthy, the dad dumped like $6,000 into a guided turkey hunt in TX. They went out very first morning and filled tags then hung out by the pool the rest of the trip. The kid then tried a public land deer hunt. Gave up after the 1st hour of daylight and has yet to hunt again. For young hunters it should be more about the work, time, effort and quality of hunt time vs. just killing a big one. If a 12 year old decides to shoot only a 4 point or better then great, if they get a toad as a result of luck and work great. But simply just going and buying an animal is wrong.


Some more thought about hunting. I read once where there was an evolution in hunting. I can't remember where, but it went basically along the lines of: Beginning Hunters are about the KILL they measure success in Filling the tag. Then the next level is looking for trophy success is measured by killing top animals, After trophy you will see people expand/challenge (people start looking for the added challenge of archery, handguns, muzzy etc.) and finally we all end up in a spot where none of it matters just being outside means success... While the original article was much better it made total sense for me. It noted that people progress through stages at different levels. Some get stuck in one level others move through and that we can digress to prior levels especially when hunting new species or areas, etc.

So given the above theory, it does not matter to new hunters the size so much as the success....

 

[Zeke]

The adult men usually put all the value in the antler/horn size. The kids just want to get something. They don't usually base success on size... and sometime don't even base success on killing. The pressure usually comes from the adult.

I know these are generalized statements and might not apply to all youth hunters but I've spent countless days afield with youth hunters and I have a good idea of what they think.

I think when the youngsters reach late teen to early 20's the trophy value becomes a bigger issue. Some of the young guys are getting macho about that age and the "trophy" becomes almighty.

Some adults become or stay as trophy only hunters and can't see the enjoyment in a cow hunt or the killing of a small deer.

There's something out there for everyone. That's why if is so futile to define a "hunt" for someone else.

Zeke

 

[SneakAttack]

Zeke, you are right on the money! I've had a gut full of the whole trophy hunting lifestyle bs. I grew up hunting because it was a great way to live. Spending time in nature, away from the City, away from the influences of the world. Just me and my family getting out and enjoying life in general. I still get completely freaked out when I see a buck, a buck of any size. The commercialization of the hunting lifestyle really bothers me. I bought into it for a few years. Thought I had to have the biggest, the baddest of everything. I spent way too much money on gear, tags you name it. Since my first buck at age 14, I've experience the highs and lows of hunting. Most of the lows came because I was too focused on killing the big one. I've finally realized for me, it's ok to take a small buck, or a cow/doe. The hunt is what brings me satisfaction. Now it's more about family trips than it is about my pursuit of B&C critter. When I go without the kids now, it's really not the same. I can't freakin' wait for my cow hunt here in a few weeks. There's just something about opening morning of any hunt that cranks my tractor.

 

[Tristate]

"So what really matters to me is the situation. i feel that if the kid has to work for the animal prior to taking it, it does not matter if it is a 2 year old or a beast."

That's an excellent outlook to have but don't tell others how to raise their kids.

" I do however have real issues with starting kids on canned hunts, and the idea that dumping money into an easy trophy hunt is wrong. For example, there is a kid on my wife's side of the family who wanted to go hunting when he turned 14. Since they were very wealthy, the dad dumped like $6,000 into a guided turkey hunt in TX. They went out very first morning and filled tags then hung out by the pool the rest of the trip."

That doesn't sound like a canned hunt. Sounds like the kid had a lucky first morning, and what do you care what someone else paid for a hunt? Used to be a time when that was no one elses business but theirs, not to be blabbed on a website by "family".


" The kid then tried a public land deer hunt. Gave up after the 1st hour of daylight and has yet to hunt again."

How sad.

" For young hunters it should be more about the work, time, effort and quality of hunt time vs. just killing a big one."

Keep that outlook for your kids and be proud of how you are raising them. Quit worrying about whether someone else is on your parental plan.

" If a 12 year old decides to shoot only a 4 point or better then great, if they get a toad as a result of luck and work great. But simply just going and buying an animal is wrong."

Have you ever been to a grocery store?

 

[WapitiBob]

I mentioned something a cpl years ago about NM youth rifle hunt being in the prime rut and maybe it should be a cow hunt rather than a big bull slaughter. The kids would experience the full rut yet not kill off all the breeding stock.

It got nasty real quick. Seems size does matter, for Dad anyway.

 

[Zeke]

LOL. So true.
Just go to a youth ball game and see who does all the sreaming. It's the crazy know-it-all adults! The kids are usually just happy to make the team, play ball and win a few games. This all changes when they get a little older.

While I do believe that success in life matters, it matters not when tied to antler inches..... the HUNT is the most important to me but I'll take the inched too sometimes. Certainly not every hunt needs to be measured with a tape.

Remember; you can't measure the hunter by the inches of antler/horn.

Zeke

 

[elks96]

Guess I do not see it as telling other how to raise their children, but if your good with buying animals that are fed as pets and then calling it hunting it is fine. I know my daughter will or will not see it that way. On the turkey hunt, there was no challenge at all and as a result the kid took a whole different outlook on hunting. Heat blinds, and a feeder where in his own words 60+ turkeys ran to when the feeder went off... That to me is what ruins a kid and the sport(if there really was any sport in that situation).

As far as my example, it was just that an example on how a trophy or canned type of hunt mentality ruined a potential new comer to the sport. I have been to the store and bought meat, but I seldom get up at 4:00 in the morning pack my gear and walk a couple miles to put a stalk on the meat counter. Hence why that is called shopping and not hunting. Regardless there is a difference and the young ones will be raised in an ever changing world where they and us will have to define and redefine our ethics. So be it, but never did I go out and say that my way of thinking is the only way. And never did I say that anyone else has to raise their kids as i am raising mine. But read what you want into the post and respond how you see fit. It was a question asking for opinions and mine was provided.

 

[Tristate]

"Guess I do not see it as telling other how to raise their children,"

Call a spade a spade. You are being self righteous and looking down your nose at your in laws.

" but if your good with buying animals that are fed as pets and then calling it hunting it is fine."

I have no problem with people shooting their pets. However your "family" member did not "buy" an animal as you put it. Quit being so self-righteous.

" I know my daughter will or will not see it that way. On the turkey hunt, there was no challenge at all and as a result the kid took a whole different outlook on hunting."

Some hunts aren't meant to be a challenge. I know that's hard for you to imagine. Just because you value challenge in your sport does not mean all players must do the same.

" Heat blinds, and a feeder where in his own words 60+ turkeys ran to when the feeder went off... That to me is what ruins a kid and the sport(if there really was any sport in that situation)."

About as much sport as you trash talking your family behind their back?????

"As far as my example, it was just that an example on how a trophy or canned type of hunt mentality ruined a potential new comer to the sport. I have been to the store and bought meat, but I seldom get up at 4:00 in the morning pack my gear and walk a couple miles to put a stalk on the meat counter. Hence why that is called shopping and not hunting. Regardless there is a difference and the young ones will be raised in an ever changing world where they and us will have to define and redefine our ethics. So be it, but never did I go out and say that my way of thinking is the only way."

No body ever said you said it was "the only way", you just decided your way was better than everyone elses.

" And never did I say that anyone else has to raise their kids as i am raising mine."

No, but you freely trash and belittle the ones that aren't.

"But read what you want into the post and respond how you see fit. It was a question asking for opinions and mine was provided."

 

[elks96]

Little butt-hurt over this are we? Say what you want but the kid is not hunting anymore, what interest he had is gone. My kids still love to go hunting and hopefully will.

Also there are many individuals on my inlaws side that hunt and we all agreed that the approach taken was not the right direction. But the uncle who had your same attitude about not telling him how to raise his kids, insisted on it being the best approach. When both myself and multiple uncles and cousins would have gladly taken him out "hunting".

Of course I am probably just jealous because the kid got a turkey, or that they spent $6,000 to take animal, etc. They tried and it failed. It failed because the kid never got a true appreciation for the hunt, the work and the animals. In this situation I find it hard to see how any first time hunter would get that appreciation.

Yep my way is better and is providing better results than the example... So yep I am looking down my nose at a failed attempt. So be it, but I still believe the experience and the work is a better indicator of how a new comer will view hunting as opposed to trophy size.

 

[Stonefly]

In the Hunter Ed. Handbook it talks about the stages of Hunting. And from my um... years of hunting I would agree with what they say. Most beginners find themselves in the 1st stage (shooting) where chances for shots are important. Some may be in the (limiting out) stage, you can see from the name where the importance is. there are other stages where type of hunting is the most important, where certain skills may need to be developed, Bowhunting or muzzel loading for example. There is also a trophy stage and a sportsman stage. Because there is a stage called the sportsman stage doesn't mean other stages aren't sporting, How it is defined by the handbook is, the stage where the act of hunting ,the time spent with your hunting friends,have the most importance to the "Sportsman stage" hunter. Its not a progression tho, You can jump back and forth, in and out, what ever fits your pistol. An example of this would be myself, I mostly am either in the trophy stage or Sportsman stage at this time in my life, But when I draw that LE bull elk tag just watch how fast I combine trophy and Limiting out Stages.

 

[SneakAttack]

Stonefly...."But when I draw that LE bull elk tag just watch how fast I combine trophy and Limiting out Stages."..... Love it! I need to get back into fishing more myself!

 

[sageadvice]

The OP Asked, "Just a question. I think us Adults add more to it than the kids even recognize. Right now my kids just want to have some success. Are they the norm? What do you guys think? "


I agree! When i started, i was 10 or so, hunting with Grandpa or my Dad on our own Ranch for Blacktails. Size didn't matter to me at all as long as it was a legal buck and it was going to get tagged. By my mid teens though, seemed like the guys i liked to talk most to, were older guys, hunters that went out of state after bigger bucks and only shot the biggest of those that were local. I soon craved to get the biggest but i always filled my two tags given.

Looking back, i think it was a healthy progression. Don't personally know any youngsters who started at the top. I do though know several people who were given anything they could want or ask for as youths only to make terrible messes for themselves later on as adults. To me, that says something right there!

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"

 

[HuntinFool]

My first buck I killed last year at 15, and it was a really heavy 22" 4x5. I almost shot the 2 point at the front of the herd, but then I saw a three point a little farther back, and I began to line up on him. When I was getting ready to shoot I looked farther back in the herd and I saw the buck I killed. I would have been happy with any of the bucks, but I definitely was happy that I killed the biggest one. Now that I have killed that buck I don't have the desire to shoot a year old two point. Maybe I will again sometime, but as for now I don't. If I want meat I can kill a cow elk easily enough. I'm not saying that this should be the way everybody hunts, but it is the way I do.

 

[swbuckmaster]

Tristate did you forget to take your meds?

who farted?

 

[Tristate]

"Little butt-hurt over this are we?"

Nope. I just care about kids. Even if they aren't hunters.

" Say what you want but the kid is not hunting anymore, what interest he had is gone."

That isn't necesarily a bad thing.

" My kids still love to go hunting and hopefully will."

Excellent. Hope they keep it up. That doesn't mean you are a better father than your in-law.

"Also there are many individuals on my inlaws side that hunt and we all agreed that the approach taken was not the right direction."

Really???? You are supporting self-righteous behavior because you have a coalition to make you feel better about it.

" But the uncle who had your same attitude about not telling him how to raise his kids, insisted on it being the best approach. When both myself and multiple uncles and cousins would have gladly taken him out "hunting"."

Has it occurred to you that your in-law doesn't want his kid exposed to your self-righteous snobbery pertaining to your hunting ethics.

"Of course I am probably just jealous because the kid got a turkey, or that they spent $6,000 to take animal, etc."

You probably are. I like your honesty though.

" They tried and it failed. It failed because the kid never got a true appreciation for the hunt, the work and the animals. In this situation I find it hard to see how any first time hunter would get that appreciation."

How do you know? A hunt is a lot of things to a lot of different people. Maybe there was some great things talked about around that swimming pool in Texas that you and your kids are missing.

"Yep my way is better and is providing better results than the example... So yep I am looking down my nose at a failed attempt. So be it, but I still believe the experience and the work is a better indicator of how a new comer will view hunting as opposed to trophy size."

I think you would do better worrying about how you look as an ambassador of hunting than what the kid is thinking about the hunt itself. Many times I have mentioned it here on these forums that many people here are bigger anti-hunters than they are hunters. They have become so self-righteous that they drive postential new hunters away. When there is no hunting left your kids will have you to thank.

 

[Tristate]

The meds make me sleepy, and we are so busy right now I can't afford to sleep, so I'm back on the meth.

 

[Zeke]

HuntinFool said:
>My first buck I killed last
>year at 15> I would have been
>happy with any of the
>bucks, Now that
>I have killed that buck
>I don't have the desire
>to shoot a year old
>two point. Maybe I
>will again sometime, but as
>for now I don't.

Thankfully everyone is different.
I've hunted all over the world and have taken trophy animals that only a few dare dream about BUT I ALWAYS HAVE A DESIRE TO KILL A BUCK, even a 2pt. I guess it's the predator in me or something. I usually hold out for something bigger or go home without popping a cap but sometimes I still get satisfaction out of taking a fine 2pt buck. It all depends on how much I've already hunted that year.

I think this is a prime example of why we CANNOT define what hunting is for someone else. Hunting is such a personal experience and yet we want everyone to conform to our definition of hunting.

Best, Zeke