Dog Sheep

greatwestern

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-11 AT 00:33AM (MST)[p]so, we've just looked at a CO Ram that we all seemed to think was mid 170s-180 based on the image of this dude by himself

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well, i wasn't trying to be deceptive or make anybody look foolish...hell, ANY good sheep person could be fooled by a ram like this! but he won't score anywhere near what we would've judged him at if we'd found this dude by himself...why? because he is a dwarf...a hobbit ram...a dog sheep!

7174frodo.jpg


look how little he is! his average bodied 7 year old buddy dwarfs him, and Frodo is standing a good yard or two closer to the camera, from about 60 yards (also note bottom of his other side, visible under his jawline)...yet, he wasn't the only one that day

while milling about on the mountain taking pictures of all the boys, i glassed up a ram that was about 3 1/2 miles north of us on the primary ridge, headed our way...he trucked on over in not much over an hour, feeding only sporadically. well he finally popped over the top and looked down and saw these rams, then got all happy and came trotting down to say hi

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i didn't even notice until he got down to the others, but he's a dwarf as well! and who does he go right up to for a nuzzle and some horning? ol' Frodo! his long lost buddy... all the other rams ignored him, and he them

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Frodo is obviously second from right, with his very light, kinda 'fannin' colored hobbit buddy just to his left

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looks like the young class IVs are taking their old puppy dogs out for a stroll :)

i have seen dwarves in several populations of wild sheep, but never two in one general herd (there were rams all over that hill), and much less best little buddies like that

O'Connor describes a lone Dall he once killed that he thought would be pushing 45 long...but alas, it was a hobbit! he was well over full curl, but went almost 4 inches shorter than ol' Jack had thought, obviously had small bases, and a skull length that measured two inches shorter than a 42 inch full curl that was brought in a few days later

its funny how many decent sheep people don't really believe in dwarf rams, and seem to pass it off as hunters just trying to justify small horns when they kill one of these older little buggers...sure, plenty of 'normal sized' age class rams have small horns, like this miserable old fellow here in the foreground:

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but such rams are obviously not dwarves (incidentally, the big dude in the back that i called Brutus was killed later that year and went 181+...NOT a Colorado ram)

Anyway, beware the tricksy Hobbit Rams...they're really out there!

and anyone else with any stories or examples of Dog Sheep, please post them on up

Cheers'
 
I wish I could find pics......I hunted desert sheep in the Clark mtns of ca in about 1991 with a friend that had a tag...we found a lone ram that was fricken huge...full deep curl. He killed it. Ended up as a 12 year old 153 ram that field dressed 85 lbs....a fricken midget.


JB
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Greatwestern,

Very interesting stuff.
My only personal experience with this phenomenon was a Dall sheep back in '81.

I shot a HUGE 1 1/8 curl ram BUT he turned out to be one of your little guys. As I recall the length was right at 34". The scull was much shorter than the ram my partner killed on that trip. Small body too. Oh well, It's not catch and release.

He was alone as well which makes it very difficult to determine the true size.

Thanks for the interesting and informative photo tour.

Zeke
 
GW
keep those hobbit sheep at bay on Wheeler for me, would ya!!??
I would get fooled BAD by one of those midgets!

------------------
DRSS
 
hey, cool! thanks for stories guys...wonder if any one around here has seen/killed a dwarf Stoney?

I know T-Rex and Trav have some more tales about the wily Desert Hobbits

nah Scott, no worries...the only hobbit alive up there that i know of is easy enough to recognize...he used to roll with a big 190 that was killed two seasons ago, and unlike the friendly puppies above, this midget is a little napolean punk...he don't take no flak! and what did it get him? his whole left side busted off at the base! now he has a healed up little cone there, and needless to say, cruises around with a very pronounced list to his head, and a kinda diagonal gait!

but he ain't quite as ornery anymore :)
 
Hey GW,
That had to be a day for the memory bank! Thanks for the pictures.

I will say though that some of us vertically challenged dwarf types don't like to be laughed at, even if we are with a band of buddies! It seems like a good excuse for having a Napoleonic ego! (people and sheep) LOL
I imagine there are more than a few hunters that didn't laugh when they got up to their pint sized trophies!
I remember reading a few years back about a "well healed" Kluane Dall sheep tag holder who spent a boat load of money on one of those "little people" sheep. Dropped several hundred K on the tag and paid a posse of a dozen expert sheep hunters, guides, videographers, etc. to come along for the ride. They spotted this lone sheep they were all sure was a high book 45" ram, only to discover that he was a runt on the ground.
Anyway, a good lesson to beware of lone rams if you care about what they score.
I love the pictures!
 
I was on a hunt in the NWT were one of the hunters was a wildlife biologist. The man did some looking for the big one and ended up with a 27 inch midget ram. The fellow was not a happy camper.
 
Here's one for you guy's
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Any guesses ?

























Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest
 
Mesquitehunter,

This must be a trick because he looks like a stud.

What's the age, mesquite?

Looks like about 8 or 9 to me, boxy, heavy, good looking ram.

My guess would normally be about 165"+ but I'm waiting for the surprize! LOL

Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-11 AT 09:27AM (MST)[p]Here's another ram. As we can see they're are both mature rams.
And they are from the same area!

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6577img_0098_edit.jpg


















Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest
 
This one looks a bit longer but not quite as heavy. Still a stud but I'm sure you're trying to throw us a curve-ball. LOL

I think you're trying to show us that without some other referrence the rams could be old yet smaller that normal.

It will be interesting when you decide to provide more info.

Thanks, Zeke
 
Zeke,
Kind of like your daughter's 15+ inch base ram coming from the same drainage as my son's 13+. Both impressive rams, but your daughter's kicks butt with score!
Man that was a fun year!
 
Littlebighorn,
True!
Kinda like my 142" 10.5 ram coming from the same unit as a 155 7.5 yr old yam the same year. My ram looked great since he was the only ram in the bunch but he was smaller framed.
I think sheep must be like people.... all different sizes!
Zeke
 
Great post. I call them "mini rams". Have a pic of a group of 4 with one lil' fella in the group that I will have to dig up. What's really neat is when you see the opposite. A big ol' slug that looks even bigger when he has a group of others around him for comparison.
 
hey T-Rex, thanks for puttin up your Desert Dog....other dude ain't too bad either eh! ;)

ya Buckspy, them big ol' dudes are what i call Horse Sheep...they're tall at the withers, brawny, and have a big ol' mule head! 'Dispersal' phenotype...more common in 'new' herds and populations that exist in numbers well under their range's carrying capacity

i have video of one such ram that i call Deceptive Dude, thing looks like a dang Trojan stallion! he's a large horned ram anyway, but when you see him with the other top class IV's in his posse, it is readily evident that ol DD has about 10 more inches on his head that you'd think if he were by himself

please post up your Dog photo if you find it!

Cheers all
 
Holy cow Mesquitehunter!

That's impressive!

Even a good "sheep nut" could be fooled, 100% of the time, if that ram was alone!

Zeke
 
Those pictures are amazing! Both impressive sheep.
Perfect close up example of GW's point and a great find for you Mesquitehunter!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-11 AT 05:43PM (MST)[p]hey T, can ya take one of big Golden and the Dog together in profile? that will really show off the difference in the quarters...

ya LBH, that's why I'm hoping Buckspy can find his live shot of a hobbit...my crap photos are just enough to see what's going on there, but Spy's photography is simply brilliant, very high quality!
 
Hey there Mesquitehunter,

I hope you plan on posting the scores of the two sheep.
It will be interesting and informative.

This whole dwarf sheep syndrome is a concept that I thought was extremely rare but as I've talked to other and see stuff from you and GW, I think it's a little more common.

I guess the key is to go slow in judging and hope the ram is around other rams for reference..... before we pull the trigger!

Great post guys. It makes me really ponder.

Zeke
 
GW- I didn't take a pic of the profile view of the rams side by side.

Zeke my brother and I have found two dwarf dead heads total. They both came from the same unit several miles apart.

Like GW mention in an above post Dwarfism does appear to be more common in some of the older herds in older ranges. The newer transplanted herds don't seem to have this problem as often. That's just what I've observed, not scientifically speaking.

There is an article on field judging desert sheep in the last edition of the Western Hunter Magazine and Maddglasser along with some other sheep guides were on the panel discussing various strategies in field judging. One thing Travis pointed out was, if you find a ram by himself be sure to compare him with barrel cactus or whatever you can so this mistake doesn't happen.


The bigger of the two scores 176 gross. We estimated he had been dead two years. The smaller of the two scored 153 gross and we estimated him being dead for about two years.

















Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest
 
Hey GW,
Your "crap" photos started a very informative "Lord of the Rings" discussion that has schooled most of us! I would love to tag along on one of those sheep observation days and get cool pics of awesome rams like those. Thanks for the post!
Also Mesquite, thanks for the article tip. I will see if I can find a copy still on a news stand. It sounds worth reading for someone with top UT Desert Sheep Points!
 
When I was on a sheep hunt this past Jan in CA. I had a photo of a shoulder mounted ram shown to me and was ask what the score might be. I immediately said 190 plus. The ram really scored in the 150's. It was one of the most amazing rams I'd ever seen. I mean, this rams horns looked like one of the Cadomine rams from Alberta. One thing that was mentioned about that ram, was his nuts were about the size of a large dogs nuts. So if the nuts aren't hanging down close to there knee's you may hold off on the trigger and reevaluate the situation.

BTW the hunter who killed the ram is absolutely thrilled with him.I think the ram was aged at 15 years old.

Also from what I've heard from past and present sheep legends and I've also observed in the field that these mini-rams tend to be a lot more solitary. So that can make judging real tough.

























Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-11 AT 11:38PM (MST)[p]exactly brother, no one should ever be ashamed of killing a mature mini dog ram, but i still wish they wouldn't...i like them little hobbits :)

i have seen dwarves alone, following other rams, and in ewe/lamb groups with 2-3 year old rams, and the only one i've ever known that thought he was a regular ram is that now one horned Petit Napoleon described above...the majority seem to realize that they're essentially outclassed by the average 4-5 year old, and either end up alone, sometimes hang with the girls and the youth, or become extremely passive and 'invisible' within mature ram groups, like ol Frodo

in addition to their nuts, there are other physical attributes that can help identify a lone hobbit...notice how Frodo and Fannin Sam have sort of compact 'bullet' shaped bodies as opposed to the more 'pony' lookin frames of the 'normal' rams...also the relatively disproportional size and set of the ocular orbits; as can be seen in the skull comparison illustrated in MH's example...and these rams invariably have visibly short and stubby legs

dwarfism will show its face more predominantly in 'maintenance/efficiency' phenotype populations that have maxxed out their range's capacity; and experience at least some degree of generational inbreeding

hey t-rex, lookin forward to seein that old CA dog picture!

and maybe so LBH...but you still have to admit the image quality of my photos is pretty much crap! but its good i don't have a nice camera, i'd probably end up getting flustered with the blasted contraption somewhere, and throwing it off a damn cliff!

... i won't say some such thing hasn't happened before ;)
 
This has been the most informative, interesting and amusing thread to date! (if you like wild sheep)

You crazy dudes are nice to share your insight with the rest of us sheep nuts!

The smallish, 10.5 yr old, UT Desert ram which I shot was from an OLD indigenous herd. This makes perfect sense when looking at your observations.

Thanks, Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-23-11 AT 01:30PM (MST)[p]hey thanks for your contributions as well Zeke...and would love to see your mini Dall if you get a chance, as well your old Desert!

anyway, i've enjoyed hearing about other folks experiences with Dog Sheep, and hope that more of these dwarf stories and pictures continue to come in!

cheers to the hobbits
 
Great thread guy's. I have enjoyed it! Here's to us NOT killing any hobbits! But if we do...I hope he is a big hobbit! LOL
 
Thanks for the info guys this thread just goes to show how much I don't know about Sheep. Now I am worried! When I draw my tag this year! Who is going with me to make sure I don't shoot a midget? For me trying to score a Sheep would be like trying to find Waldo on a Waldo poster from a mile away.

Rutnbuck
 
If you guys remember the "Solitaire" ram that I hunted before I shot the "Double D" ram. I had several people tell me that they thought the lone Solitaire ram that lived on a mountain range all by itself, was a 170" class ram. Even though I was a split second away from shooting it, I never really thought it had the WOW factor that my ram gave me, each time I would see him. If you look closely at the pictures and video in the link below that I posted of ram "B" (Solitaire). He seems to me to have a small body but being alone, it's really hard to tell. What do you guys think?
Link: http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID8/4351.html
 
He's only about 1" tall on my screen. Ha

Really ridgetops, If we've learned anything with this thread it's that it's really hard to tell body/horn size unless we can see them in relation to other sheep... preferably other rams.

Even with hard scrutinization a misjudgement can happen.

I've been surprized a few time, after the kill, but never disappointed. Some were bigger, some smaller. I care more about the animal, hunt and age than the score (until I kill the new world record and can tell everyone what a great hunter I am) LOL.

They're just a wonderful animal!

Zeke
 
Shoot Ridgetops....i don't think ol Solitaire is a hobbit, but he's not a very big dude anyway....i certainly dont see 170! looks like a pretty miserable base, and subsequently not very heavy horns...do you know if anyone killed him?

your Darkhorns was the right choice!
 
That Solitaire ram is still around. Many other people who have seen him, put his score at around 165 and about 10 years old. the 170" guess was at the high end. All I know is they are very hard to judge and I know I made the right chioce on my ram. This has been a very interesting thread.
Thanks for the pictures.
 
Koby,
I gotta agree with greatwestern about Solitaire. Both the lacking midge status and score...but he is for sure more skilled at judging both than me.
You did kill the Stud of the unit for sure!
 
LAST EDITED ON May-19-11 AT 06:41PM (MST)[p]Hey! I was looking for something in my sheepy files and just so happened across a tale of a hobbit Stone's...

From the journals of the one and only Valerius Geist, during his 1961-62 sheep and goat study in the Spatzisi region of northern British Columbia, on a day he decides to go after a pair of 'stranger' rams that were not part of his study group, just so he won't have to keep eating the bear that constituted the remainder of his meat supply:

"...I had barely reached the big snowdrift where I expected to get a good view of the country beyond when the horns of the first ram emerged above the snowdrift. I raised the rifle and held the ram in the scope. It was an unforgettable sight. An old ram with rugged and massive, but not overly long, horns was returning my stare. He flipped backward at the shot's impact and scarcely kicked. Elated, I stumbled forward. However, with each approaching step the ram shrank in size. When I stood beside him I could not believe my eyes. I had taken a dwarf---a diminutive little old ram. Quickly I counted his horn rings. He was fourteen years old, an ancient fellow. Unbelieving, I took a tape from my pocket and measured the horns. They were undamaged, and measured all of 32 1/2" in length, with a basal circumference of 12 1/4. This was incredibly small! In the white snow dunes and blowing snow this dwarf had fooled me. Had he been of average body size only, this would have been a ram with enormous horns..."

Well, I guess this would complete our 'Grand Slam' of North American Dog Sheep then eh! :)
 
I've been told by some avid sheep hunters that there are a few areas in Northern BC where dwarf stones are more common than in other areas. Maybe something in the soil? Who knows.
 
Maybe small, isolated, and subsequently inbred populations?

Who knows indeed...I sure as hell couldn't tell ya!

Funny thing about Val's hobbit is that the Stikine has lately produced some of the best stoney's in a long time...but sheep are peculiar in their habits of range occupation and somewhat less than common random big distance dispersals

its all very interesting anyway
 
GW
I still owe you a couple sheep photos. I havn't forgotten, the photos of my rams were simply taken before all the new-fangled digitalitis camera and internet thingy. Hell, I was hunting sheep before Al Gore invented the internet!
I have one of the digital cameras now so maybe I'll take some "mounted" sheep pix and email 'em.
My 2 cents is, it must be more genetic than environmental since both "normal" and "dwarfs" are and can be found in the same area.
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON May-23-11 AT 11:04PM (MST)[p]Yessir Z, I'd love to see them old dudes! And I agree completely about the genetics. Hell, genetics are the primary influence on the morphology of most any mammal, extraneous environmental factors are entirely secondary in my opinion

One of my brothers T-Rex or Trav described it perfectly one time... "I don't care how much good feed ya give ol' Spike Lee, he ain't never gonna grow to be no Shaq!"

What remains very interesting here is the how/why concerning the widely varying populations of wild sheep that have, and/or currently produce, examples of Dwarfism; how these hobbits fit into sheep society from a biological aspect; and how they're interpreted by hunters with regard to perceived 'trophy quality'

Questions questions, eh! :)
 
How about the princess Leah Stones that occur in some hunt areas. They have little bun horns so tight to their heads that they look like little buns? Similar deal maybe?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-11 AT 00:59AM (MST)[p]Yo Scottyboy! these are for you... Ol' Petit Napolean now hangs by himself, but picks on young rams he encounters at any opportunity. Sorry for the crap picture quality, the wind has been just ridiculous

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Imagine the poor dude that encounters this ruffian runt alone and bedded, showing only his good side...a fine ram! A real old Battle Hammer...he shoots, he scores! he walks up to the fallen monarch...aw shucks, he's broke off! Aw shucks! he's a Hobbit!! Ah shucks, he's only got ONE little princess leah cinnamon bun!!! :)

funny how 'trophy' hunting is, as this kind ram probably SHOULD properly be harvested ahead of ANY younger ram, despite their probability of easily dominating him in score...but there aren't currently any provisions for the harvest of 'management' type rams in public units on this continent (Tiburon Island is the only area in NA that employs this practice, I believe)... it would be a pretty complex deal to operate for any state or province, and there are extremely limited resources that could be available to support such programs...hell, maybe in time

But I'll be honest...if it were my tag under current sheep regulations and abyssmal draw odds, there is no way in hell that I would shoot this ram in that unit
 
What a turd!! You are right, GW, NM SHOULD implement a mgnt plan...cuz I'm with you..I'd NEVER shoot that little napoleon bastard with that tag!!

Struck out again on the draws. But hey, theres always next yr! Hope all's good up there. Its a fire pit down this way!

-----------------
DRSS
 
Ha! Turd is right, that little dude has a serious attitude problem! Notice the big chunk out of his right 1st quarter...well, he didn't have that late last fall. Looks like the one horned bugger got into it pretty good during the rut eh?

While I was up there that day, there were three 4-5 year olds that couldn't seem to figure out who was supposed to be the head honcho of their little posse...they would huddle up and display to eachother for long minutes, then one or the other would peel off in a low stretch for 10 yards or so, whirl and rear up...there were a few clashes, plenty of front kicks, and way too much of them mounting eachother

Ol Napolean must have heard the clacking of horns, as he eventually came on over, evidently lookin for a fight! All the young punks quickly became entirely submissive and suckered up to nuzzle him and pay their respects. He didn't seem to care much for the adulations of the juvenile scrappers and took off again, leaving the three musketeers to their silly antics

Anyway, if the little battler keeps it up, he'll end up without any horns left! :)
 

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