Don Peay - Randy Newberg Debate - Update

Hawkeye

Hawkeye

Long Time Member
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Over the last few months, I have been working with Don Peay and Randy Newberg to finalize the details for the upcoming debate. The three of us have spent a significant amount of time and effort working together behind the scenes to agree upon a date, time, location and format for the upcoming debate. Although the parties have not always agreed on every issue, we have worked together in a professional, good faith effort to make this happen. The debate is scheduled for Thursday June 28th at 7:00 p.m., in the large conference room of the Utah Department of Natural Resources (1594 West North Temple, SLC, Utah). Please take note that debate was rescheduled from June 27th to June 28th in order to accommodate Don?s schedule. Please mark this date on your calendars.

During the day on June 28th, Don is going to give Randy, me and a few others a tour of some habitat improvement/restoration projects. We will return to SLC in time for the debate. Don and Randy have agreed upon the general format of the debate and some general topics, which relate to the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation. They have also agreed to allow some questions from the audience and are discussing the best way to solicit those questions. They are also close to announcing the name of the moderator for the debate.

There is, however, one issue that may still threaten to derail the debate. As most of you know, Randy has requested copies of SFW?s financial statements so that he can verify and address the effectiveness and efficiency of the SFW?s conservation efforts specifically and the ?Utah model of conservation? generally. There seems to be some reluctance on the part of Don and SFW to release that information. Hopefully, the parties can work through this issue in advance of the debate.

One other point, many of you have asked whether there will be a webcast available. To be honest, I would love to see that happen but I do not have the technical ability to coordinate it. Is there anyone on this forum that might be willing to get involved and help coordinate a webcast of this event? If so, please shoot me an email or private message.

I hope to see you all on June 28th and I am confident that this will be a fun, educational and interesting event. Thank you to all of those who have been involved, especially Don and Randy.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Isn't it ironic that what Randy is asking for is the main thing all of us that have problems with the SFW/BGF have been asking for all along. Transparency and showing incoming/outgoing money is what the problem is all about IMHO and not the fact that they have done good with whatever money they are putting into habitat improvements. It looks like this might derail the agreed upon debate, so again I would ask what they are hiding if a 501C organization won't do what randy has asked for!
 
Wow. Is SFW afraid someone will "steal" their "secret sauce" to operating? That is flat out funny right there. Open the books. Saddle up. Put on the big boy pants. You took public assets and donations so show us the money.

Perhaps will be embarrassing if some funds can not accounted for or if funds went to lobbying places like Arizona that created firestorms or paid for fancy hotel rooms and meals. Would not be the first time individuals treated a non-profit's bank account like a private slush fund but hope this is not the case with SFW. The stink will get on other groups.
 
+1

avatar_2528.jpg
 
Is it shocking to anyone that Don sets a whole series of requirements that Randy has to go through for the debate to happen...then welches out on the ONE thing required of him?

I'm not surprised at all.

Every single time SFW/BGF is questioned about their financial records or the wolf issue...its nothing but the sound of crickets.

I wonder what SFW is hiding in those financial records? Plenty, I'm sure.
 
I SFW won't open their books to Randy, then we can all be certain they will never be open to the poeple of Utah. Don promised in an earlier thread on this topic to open the books to Randy. It is quickly becoming time to get a rope.....
Bill
 
The ONLY thing I care about and want to hear about is the TAG GRABS !!!! Why is Randy going on a ride with Don? This didn't start over habitat it all got going when SFW started convincing people that they could lead the way with some of the best trophy tags in the west $$$$$. If I was Randy I would skip the "ride"
 
I've said it from the very beginning, Peay will never open up his books. Randy would consume him if that would happen. He knows it, Randy knows it, and all those ostriches with their heads pulled out of the sand, and out their, arse know it.

Peay was just hoping Randy would stop somewhere in the obstacle course and hold up the white flag. Didn't happen, so Peay pulls the records.

What a complete tool.




I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
I believe the tour was one of the Don's requirements before he would debate. I am still waiting for all the SFW followers to come on here and tell us that showing their financials is no big deal and that they have nothing to hide.
 
I'm sure Birdman or one of "the crew" will come on here and tell us everything is being done exactly as it is supposed to under the guidleines of the IRS and DWR! Yea, right!!!
 
Thank you Hawkeye. I'm actually amazed that my request for them to debate has made it this far!!

I had a gut feeling that ego and a little rope would allow SFW to hang themselves. Looks like that's exactly what's about to happen here if Mr. Newberg is not allowed to review their financial statements. Randy even offered to sign a non-disclosure statement which is a common practice. This would allow Randy to get an understanding of how their operation works and therefore allow him to ask the right questions without conflict of the non-disclosure statement.

Closed books = pointless debate and a waste of everyone's time.

You bet I would like to review their financials, but I'm ok with someone like Randy having full access and taking it from there.

I hope the SFW comes clean here, but I don't expect them to judging by their past responses.

I see the light at the end of the tunnel. SFW troops, if they are wise enough to see past the end of their noses are looking at a freight train coming at them full speed ahead with the headlight burnt out...

Thanks again Hawkeye.
Keep us posted.
 
To paraphrase... this debate is worthless without a debate. ;-)


I think this is a little like 15 inch bases... ain't never gonna happen.
 
I thought that non profit organizations had to make their books open to the public? If not who is the watchdog to make sure they are staying in the guidelines of " non- profit" the government?
 
They could post their books, it wouldn't matter. Once an organization makes sufficient amounts of money they basically rule the world in the United States. They can hire accountants who make the books look any way they want, you know the same accountants that managed to save GE from paying a dime of taxes. They also influence politicians and become almost untouchable, just look at what happened with John Edwards....a normal guy would be in prison but he walked. Money makes the world go round and SFW has plenty.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-01-12 AT 03:11AM (MST)[p]I've been an SFW supporter in the past...

They should open up their books and account for every cent!

How's that TOPGUN? I'll sleep better when I see your reply!!
 
woodruffhunter---You made my day, LOL! Seriously though, I think the entire hunting community that has an inkling of what is going on would sleep a lot better if that were true, but it doesn't look like it's going to happen on a voluntary basis the way the law requires them to do. If that is the case, it's hard to imagine how the organization can keep up the loyal following of folks that they do have in the fold. Whether they do a lot of good is not really even in the debate. It's how they get their money and what they do with every cent of it. The former violates the NAM and the latter is simply a matter of ethics.
 
If the law requires them to what ever Topgun is referring to then Topgun, make your point and cash in on the SFW not abiding with the law. If the law says they have to do it, force the point. Some have already looked at the tax returns and put some pages on MM. Thought the complete return they have not put on as they can not prove the points that they want. As far as the debate goes, Why have one. Why doesn't Topgun just give a good old lecture as to what is going on. He only lives a few miles away from all this and the KNOWS everything. He could handle both sides of the debate. The reason that there are so many true followers of SFW, is that we see first hand what goes on with SFW and not what those on MM want everyone to believe goes on. Oh and Topgun, you have a GREAT DAY. Keep putting the smiles on our faces.
 
Guess you can say that is true. Because of SFW I have the opertunity to hunt more game. With all the projects that have been done in behalf of all people more game exist and more opertunity abounds. Yes it does affect my pocketbook. I am now spending more money on hunting and fishing. Damn SFW, I never looked at it that way that it is costing me more money.
 
Well said Birdman, damn those guys for putting more animals on the mountain. What right do they have to make more hunts available (TO THE AVARAGE JOE) than ever before in Utah. SFW must be a bunch of plicks for doing this.
 
Once again you fellas are missing the point and doing the dance. The vast majority of us don't care what supposed miracles the SFW is working until they show some transparency. I'm glad you can continue to pat each other on the back. When you want to actually address the PROBLEM...we're all going to be listening.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-01-12 AT 06:09PM (MST)[p]Birdman---It's a wonder someone hasn't called you birdbrain with all the ridiculous posts you continue to put up. Not one time have you shown one piece of evidence to back up your posts and that last one was a real laugher in response to the other member regarding who the SFW is helping. I'm surprised a few Utah residents haven't got together by now and requested or petitioned the IRS to take away the SFW tax exemption that they continue to make a mockery of when they don't comply with opening their books up for a complete review. I've told you many times that my sole purpose on the scene is to see that SFW doesn't spread to any states where I might choose to hunt and as I've also said before, Utah isn't one of them. You can't even seem to comprehend that little tidbit of information based on your continued responses to my posts! Every one of them is more BS to the point where most MMers are mocking you in case you aren't aware of it. If your SFW is 100% on the up and up, it's amazing that Utah isn't number one on the list of all hunters seeing as how there are lots of additional tags you talk about, when in actuality the buck tag numbers appear to keep decreasing in most areas. Now even your SFW has admitted that their deer work has been a bust, but the fix is that you'll just shoot s few coyotes for big dollar bounties and the deer population will double in just a few years, LOL! In case you haven't been around the web, I'm now reading threads on various hunting sites where all members of various resident families are griping that they did not even get one license to hunt gophers in your state! Yep, SFW has certainly helped you a whole lot! How can you or any other follower be remotely happy when you see the paperwork put up here showing that less than 30% of what it appears the SFW is taking in is going back out for worthwhile projects that their mission statement says it was created for? If I was a SFW member I would be all over the brass just like we are to get with the program and be transparent or take a hike!
 
Hello Topgun. No one has petitioned the IRS because SFW is staying inside the guidelines. The IRS does their audit and says everything is in order. I see your so called little tidbits of information that you put out. Only problem is you are stating things that will never happen. You have no idea what is going on here except what you think from other MM. You are right about the deer tags being down. But the elk tags are up, the sheep tags are up, The goat tags are up. Moose tags are down. Speedgoat tags are up. Seams like moose tags and mule deer tags are down most everywhere. Over all hunting tags are up. So are the applicants. Therefore people will not draw. Just like other states. Not all get a tag. Those that don't scream and holler. That is life. And by the way, in Utah you do not need a tag to hunt gophers. All the records show that 90% of the money raised off of the State tags have gone back into the programs they are supose to. As to the 30%, you are out in left field. Keep trying Topgun. This birdbrain knows more about what goes in Utah than you do.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-01-12 AT 09:41PM (MST)[p]So Birdman, it appears I was actually giving SFW a lot more credit than I should have when I made that 30% statement! The one full tax return a member was able to access a while back for SFW and that we've been able to verify right off the IRS paperwork for the 2007 year shows the following: SFW took in $3,348,790. They spent $3,068,613 and of the total money spent, $83,687 went to big game habitat improvement, $30,000 went to a grouse study, $334,365 went to habitat projects and $1,914 went to turkey feeding for a total of $449,966 spent on what appears to be things that are consistant with the SFW mission statement. Of that total, the other $2.6 million went to management fees, consulting fees, Expo costs and tag purchases. That would mean that SFW spent approximately 14% of their revenue on wildlife, while 86% went to funding raising and numerous other things that did not benefit anything other than possibly a few people's pockets! How much more good could have been done if the majority of that $3.4 million was actually spent on habitat and other worthwhile projects? As an example of just the opposite and IMO the way it should be done, I believe the RMEF puts over 90% of what they take in back on the ground. Quite a difference between 14% and 90% wouldn't you say Sir? How can you defend terrible numbers like that which were taken right from the SFW paperwork submitted to the IRS? Please don't come back with another post telling us that SFW is operating within the law because even if they are that is not what we're talking about here. We are talking about a lack of ethics, integrity, and operating an organization that is not helping the average guy, but rather mostly wealthy tag buyers and a few top brass that are making big bucks off the public's wildlife!
 
If you go back and look at that tax return you will see that there was 9 pages to that return. How many pages did you see posted.
I have looked into SFW before I joined up. I also looked at the mule deer and the elk foundation. I chose SFW. Reasons need not be said. I have worked much with all the things going on in the State of Utah and with the DWR. There is no question that SFW is as honest as they come. That is why myself as well as many others stay with them and the organization continues to grow. The people involved with taking care of the money are as much up front as you can get. You do not know these people. All you have is the alligations that others make. Many of those aligations are part truths. But you set back and make accusations that you really know nothing about I know that there is as many people laughing at you as there is believing in you. Many people as well as you have blamed SFW for things that they have not done. It is interesting to see just how stupid you and others can be on subjects that go on in Utah. I have no idea why you posted the web page on 501 c 3 telling that they are required to post where the money went. They have done that. If they did not they would have lost there rating. So Topgun, you really have no idea what goes on in Utah except by second, third and forth hand.
 
Couple of things.

I think most debates are worthless. No matter what Obama and Romney debate I am still voting for Romney. No matter what happens in this debate 99+% of the people will still think the same thing as they thought before.

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought Sportsmen for Fish and Habitat (might be the wrong name) was the 501C3 and they had another name for the political side of it, SFW? I thought there were two entities on paper but not 100% sure.

I think they all have their good and their bad. I am a member of SFW, MDF, RMEF and SCI and several others that I cannot even remember but renew each and every year hoping 51% of what they do is good. I see good and bad in them all. I had as ugly an argument as you can have with a high ranking MDF person when he worked for the DWR and have every reason to leave because of him but I choose not to becuase I see some good in some things they are trying to do.

I do find it ironic that RMEF is all about habitat and land from the dealings and conversations I have had but if there are not any wild animals on those lands I could care less about them. I don't want conservation land that is bare; if the wolves eat all the elk what good did conserving the land do.

99% of the people that attend the banquets don't get involved in things like this on the internet and will continue to go to the banquets even just for the social aspect.

I have looked at many many tax returns and they are quite worthless. The meat and potates of the stuff is in the working papers not in the tax return.

We all see things differently, I have a coworker that everything is black and white. I think everything is a shade of gray. Are we both right? wrong? neither?

I want transparency is what I keep hearing. I can guarantee we can ask 100 people exactly what that means and in the end we would have more than a couple dozen different answers.

I would be curious to know how many people that have complaints about Don have actually tried to contact him or have contacted him and got answers or no response. I have contacted him a few times over the years by phone and email and I have heard back from him each and every time at some point. We are all busy and it might have taken a few days but he did return my message. We agreed to disagree on a few things and life moved on. I have not contacted the head of the MDF or RMEF but I would hope they would do the same.

You guys want to see some real dollars raised go to SCI. There is nothing like it. They are fighting battles all the time all over the world. Quite amazing actually how many battles they are willing to throw their hat in on.

I do think when this debate is over nothing will have changed. Those that support SFW will get on here and say it is great. Those that hate it will still say they hate it. Sadly, In the end we fight amongst ourselves and the greenies sit back and smile.
 
Birdman,

Just answer a simple question...

If SFW/Peay have nothing to hide in their finacial records...then why dont they just provide it to Randy?

The debate would end that SFW is squandering money raised through the sale of the publics wildlife resources.

Its way beyond obvious that if everything was on the level Peay would have already sent Randy the information he's requested.

Don is a blowhard...he wants everyone to jump through all sorts of hoops for the debate to happen...but then wont provide anything requested of him and SFW. To top it off, he also wont debate the wolf issue with Randy either...which is strange since he's trumpeted on about how SFW/BGF saved the West from wolves.

Don and SFW are a joke...and he is flat scared to debate the wolf issue and the finacials of SFW.

When the going gets tough...Don runs for the exit.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-01-12 AT 11:51PM (MST)[p]
TG, here is the expense page from their 2010 form 990.

$563,000 for Landowner tags?
$736,000 for conference/conventions then another $666,000 for a "joint convention"?
It would be real interesting to see the names on the payee list for those conventions.
10% goes to Habitat Improvement. LOL

2210sfw_tax_form_2010.jpg
 
SFW pushed for tag cuts in all 5 RAC meetings! Always have and always will.It amazes me how some choose to keep their head stuck in the sand regardless of how many us in this state get screwed by this perticular organization.Any one with half a brain cell can easily see the writing on the wall and there are a lot of these $$$$$$............... on that wall.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-02-12 AT 10:52AM (MST)[p]Birdman---You are only making yourself look more foolish every time you make a post. Nobody has said the SFW has violated anything on their actual IRS reports that we've been able to access! We are saying they are in violation as a tax free entity for not opening their books to the public as is required by law. You just continue to make more statements about me that have nothing to do with what is actually being said on the threads regarding SFW. It is very obvious to most who have any smarts that the top brass doesn't want to show any of their financial paperwork voluntarily because of what I and WapatiBob posted. Actual money going to their mission statement is miniscule compared to their total money intake and all you need to do to verify that is to look at that one page of the multipage return. There is absolutely no need to show other than that one main page where the total monies taken in are shown and then to go down the list on that same page to see where it all went. Over 80% went to other than causes listed in their mission statement and even you should be able to see that. If you will look at the two lines for salaries on the return posted by WapatiBob, you will notice that they total within a few hundred dollars of being the same amount that was spent on the one line further down that shows what went out for habitat improvement. That, Sir, is more than embarrassing, if I were you in this debate! Anyway, I noticed you didn't answer my question when I asked if you're happy that so little money is going where it should be? Simple answer---yes or no? It's right there in black and white and there are absolutely no gray areas involved as another member just mentioned. The bulk of the money SFW takes in does not go where it could because of the way they make that money compared to most other organizations of their type, as well as money that went God knows where because there is no real breakdown for a lot of it. The IRS obviously has some pretty lax requirements when you can show hundreds of thousands of dollars literally "laundered" under "miscellaneous" and "other expenses" lines! To the best of my knowledge, to be a 501c(3) tax free entity the tax code just basically requires that the organization itself does not make a profit. The organization may not be violating that IRS stipulation, but there are sure some top people that are making big bucks from lobbying, consulting (whatever that is), and possibly from monies under those other lines where there is no breakdown of where it went, but the latter is either not an IRS violation or the auditor was incompetent if they have passed their audits. Again, just for you so you don't come back again with more BS. We are not discussing whether they passed an IRS audit or not. What is your reasoning for why Randy is being stonewalled when he even offered to sign a nondisclosure statement to look at their books? The simple answer that everyone but you and a few others who just won't admit what is fact is that there is something rotten in Denmark. The plain and simple fact is that you are being taken to the cleaners by a a very slick leader and a few others who are making a good living on gullible people like yourself, ones that put their money into those EXPO raffle tickets with little chance at winning, while watching the wealthy hunt whenever, wherever, and for whatever they want just by writing a big check instead of getting in line with you and the rest of the masses for the chance!
 
If SFW is not complying with the law anyone with a vested interest, member, supporter or in this case Utah hunter has a right to file a lawsuit. Start a fund get a warchest and file a class action suite. They have done a lot of good but just like most organizations, money and power corrupt no matter the cause. I have attempted to bring many valueable projects and ideas to their attention over the years but unless they invent it they wont touch it...just an extension of the Utah DWR.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-02-12 AT 03:27PM (MST)[p]desertcathunter---I'm really surprised with the animosity that so many Utah residents have regarding this SFW issue that what you have stated hasn't already been done by interested parties. It shouldn't be that hard or expensive to accomplish what we're talking about, especially if someone is an attorney or has an attorney friend that would help. It's a shame it would come to that, but if I were a resident out there you can bet I would have already done what you stated a long time ago. If they don't open the books to Randy so that the debate can proceed, a bunch of Utah guys on this site should get together and sock it to them as you stated.
 
Topgun, How interesting. So you show the expense page of a tax return. That shows how much went out, not what comes in. For instance the landowner tags. They spend money showing an expense on those tags. However they sell those tags. What is the profit? Don't know. Sometimes you spend money to make money. Could be a dollar or many thousands of dollars. You do not know. One page does not show the actual amount they went through or the profit that was made. SFW is a business that is like other business's. They spend money to make money. Expenditures only tell one side of the story. As far as a law suit. Good luck. Reason it has never been done I am sure is because it would not make it in the courts if you could find an an attorney that would take it. But they could try.
The mission statement is
?The mission of SFW is to promote the protection and enhancement of wildlife habitat, assist in providing quality wildlife management programs, educating the public about the role hunters play in wildlife conservation, and perpetuating the family tradition of hunting and fishing?.
Not just habitat but all forms of wildlife programs. So if the money is not going on the ground in habitat but into another program so be it. It is too bad that you do not live out here so you can really know what is going on. SFW keeps there house in order. I am sure that there is plenty of people that do not like what they do. No more than I do when I put in for a hunt and do not draw it. Hey I had all these points. What is going on. But the truth exists. They are as honest as can be. If you do not trust them so be it. I know. I have been involved and see what goes on.
And by the way, would open your books to the people that are trying in everyway to shut you down??
 
Hey cache if you had a half a brain cell you could realize that they are trying to cut deer tags because their population is on a down hill spiral. I guess you just want to issue more tags so every body can hunt them into extinction. And for my final question that you have been asked so many times on here, what have you done to help out the animals you hunt so hard every year?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-02-12 AT 06:14PM (MST)[p]I didn't show that page as it wasn't even in my post for cripes sakes. It was posted by WapitiBob and wasn't even the year I previously referred to in my other post. FYI though, if those monies on that page got spent, it had to have come in first--- DA!!! If they made a lot more than what they spent then they would not meet the 501C (3) requirements because they would be making a profit---DA!!! You keep coming on these threads and saying you know the SFW and top people are all fantastic and wouldn't do anything wrong. How in the he** do you know that "SFW keeps their house in order", as you stated, if you haven't seen the books either to know what you're talking about? In this last post of yours you have stated exactly the problem we are talking about and that's without having open, accessible records there is no way any of us, including you, can know if everything is on the up and up. If everything is, then why don't you answer my question as to why they will not open their books, especially for Randy with his offer to sign nondisclosure paperwork? You stated: "And by the way, would open your books to the people that are trying in everyway to shut you down?" Nobody is trying to shut them down by looking at their books, but they might shut themselves down if and when we can look at the books and people find out what many feel is a poorly run operation and quit supporting them. You stated: "So if the money is not going on the ground in habitat but into another program so be it." Where is the money going for the other things you mentioned in the mission statement, as it isn't listed anywhere in expenses unless you call almost 1/4 million dollars spent for the so-called "wolf campaign" under that statement. That's would be sort of ironic when we found out from reliable sources that they fought behind the scenes to squash the Bill that delisted the critters in Idaho and Montana! I think we are done on this thread unless you can come up with something meaningful backed up in black and white, rather than just more of this "I know this" and "I know that" baloney!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-02-12 AT 06:21PM (MST)[p]AA---And if your SFW is so great and has done so much, why is there a downhill spiral? Cripes, Don is supposed to be the guru of wildlife perpetuation isn't he, LOL! Oh that's right, I believe he actually has a chemical degree of some sort, but now he's sure that shooting a few coyotes under that new bounty program will double the deer population in several years. Yep, it's that easy! Hey, maybe cache is waiting for you to tell him what all you've done before he replies to your question.
 
Hey top gun, cache all ready knows what I do. We had an hour long talk this spring. I'm still waiting for him to do something or quit his crying, what ever comes first. By the way, you sure do know a lot about Utah for being from Michigan. Why don't you give me a call and I can fill you in on a few thing about our wildlife and whats going on out here since you don't know. Steve Sorensen 435-245-3497
 
SFW has spent nearly 100 MILLION over the last ten years and it hasn't done shiit for the Deer herds in Utah.

What's REALLY needed is a $50 Coyote bounty.

mind boggling to say the least
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-02-12 AT 06:30PM (MST)[p]"Steve Sorensen yyy-xxx-zzzz"

I'm guessing that wasn't the smartest thing you did today.
 
cache---There is no need to call you and I have never said I know anything about Utah and I really don't need you to tell me anything about it as I don't care. The discussions regarding my involvement posting about the SFW in the 15 months I've been a MM member has either been about the way they make their money or the lack of transparency in how much they make and where it all goes. It's as simple as that! It has nothing to do with Utah itself other than that's their base of operation and I hope they stay right there and don't try their tag grabs anywhere else because I will stay actively involved in seeing they end up like that tag grab Bill did in AZ recently.
 
So since it is total transperency that is being requested then how come SCI Utah, MDF and RMEF (am I missing anyone that gets conservation permits to auction)are not being included? Has anyone ever requested to see any of their info? Was your request granted? It would be nice to see where all the groups stand; not just one.
 
Topgun, You are so GREAT. I had long forgot about how you know everything. Again as I said before. One page of a tax report tells nothing about what goes on. You know that as well as other people do. But then again, you do know everything. You talk about the tag grabs that SFW is trying in other places. Will that shows how much you really know. They tried no tag grabs. Utah DWR does love the tags that are auctioned off and the money that they get from that. It is a fact that the money that comes from those tags 90% does go back into the habitat for projects just like it is suppose to. ALL OF IT. The other money that the get from donations from people can go to other things. The money that they make off the expo is there's to use as they need to. It was never set up otherwise. NEVER. There are those that say they know different. They don't. They can use it for handicapped kids or hunts or anything else that they want. Not set up otherwise.
You are right about not knowing anything about Utah. But then you seem to think that you know all that is going on. YOU DON"T. You are nothing more than a person who has so much hate for a group that you say things that are not true. You say you know. You don't. Your biggest goal here is to distroy an organization that you will never succeed at. I wish you luck with all of your endevers. I know you will need it. You are an interesting kind of guy.
 
WapitiBob, You are right about millions being spent in Utah and the deer herd is still hurting very bad. Don was one of the first to step up and say we have not cut it with the deer. The state of Utah has done great with sheep, goats, elk and other species but the deer in Utah suck. Now that something else is going to be tried that was brought up by SFW lets slam them for trying. What have you done for the deer herd. Do you have better ideas? If so spit them out. If not why slam those that are trying.
 
Birdman, you seem full of questions for everyone else...but fail to answer simple ones asked of you:

Birdman,

Just answer a simple question...

If SFW/Peay have nothing to hide in their finacial records...then why dont they just provide it to Randy?

Also, I've another request...you claim it...prove it, and I'll not ask you another question, ever.

It is a fact that the money that comes from those tags 90% does go back into the habitat for projects just like it is suppose to. ALL OF IT.

I call bullchit...
 
Bird, while making several nighttime trips from the FishLake Marina to Richfield a cpl years ago, I managed to miss several crossing or standing Deer that otherwise would have been killed, thereby preventing a net loss to the Utah Deer herd. Based on the blood splatter and carcasses I saw, my actions appeared to be the exception rather than the norm.
As a non resident, I did my part to help your struggling Deer population.
 
BussH, All that I can go by is what the DWR has to say. They say that all the 90% comes back to them for the projects that the organization and DWR want done. I have never been to a SFW banquet where the DWR is not in attendance. At the Wildlife Board Meetings every year there is an audit report as to the monies raised by each organization and if it has been accounted for. There have been issues stated in the past with different groups. If they do not account for the money then they are cut off. Simple as that. The DWR keeps track of the tag money of all the groups and makes sure it is accounted for.
 
WapitiBob, I am glad that you are very cautious with your driving thus saving several deer in the FishLake area. Thanks for your awareness and helping out the Utah deer herd.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-12 AT 10:04AM (MST)[p]cache---Sorry I addressed that one post to you about the phone call, as it was supposed to be for AA and for some reason (sometimers that us old farts have) I typed it to you.

Birdman---Why don't you just quit flapping your gums and answer the question(s) that have been asked of you. When we try to show facts, all you do is say they aren't true when they are right off Federal IRS paperwork. Facts are that lots of money (millions) is coming in and a lot of it is going out for God knows what! How can you be happy with that? All you keep saying is "I know" when you don't know any more about the SFW finances and what's going where than anybody else, including myself way up here in Michigan! You keep saying the DWR keeps track of all the tag money when it appears from what a lot of the residents are saying that they don't even have a decent, accurate count of deer in the various units. I'm with BuzzH and call BS to all your posts and will not respond any further when all you do is cut me and others down, but can't answer simple questions or come up with anything in black and white (facts)to disprove what we feel is going on. There are evidently a number of gullible, naive, members of SFW like yourself and AA and I'm sure Don thanks you from the bottom of his wallet, LOL!
 
Topgun, You are right that I had no need to cut you down. I apologize for that. It is true lots of residents have trouble with the DWR and the deer count. I will say that it is easier to keep track of the money from the tags than try to count the deer running out there in the mountains. You yourself know that was a bad analogy. You also know that one page of a tax return means nothing without the rest of them. You do not buy a business by looking at the expenditures. You look at everything. You keep saying is Don refusing to show the paper work to Randy for the debate. One thing I guess that you do not know is that Don works for SFW. He was the founder but is not an officer, board member, but only a consultant. Don agreed to a debate with Randy. He does not have any say if the finance records can be shown or not. He agreed to a debate. That is between Don and Randy. Don is a great individual and very smart. I guess you would only know if you met him which I am sure you have no desire to do so. Now you can call BS on anything that you want. The truth is the truth. You do not have to believe it. That is your right.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-12 AT 03:49PM (MST)[p]Birdman---You are flat out wrong on the IRS statement, but why not open everything to us and that excuse you use would be nonexistent. All you really have to see is all the lines showing outgoing money that has nothing to do with habitat and animal welfare. Are you not looking at all those lines showing hundreds of thousands of dollars spent without a good breakdown of where it went? I guess you are satisifed to see the hard earned money of people apparently squandered! Your response about Don is more than laughable and about what one could expect. He is definitey one smart cookieand there has never been any doubt about that. Don't you think if the books were in order and that there's nothing to hide that Don, the founder and grand puba of SFW/BGF, could get the books opened in a heartbeat? You bet he could and you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you in the AZZ, but keep on beating the bandwagon!!! One of these days the right person will expose the organization and DP for what it and he truly is and I won;t even come back and tell you I told you so. Peace Bro, as I'm outta here!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-12 AT 12:37PM (MST)[p]

Here is the problem topgun, all the broken records complaining about opening the books will still bitchh and moan even if the books are legit and nothings wrong. So if everything checks out ok a few people might shut their pie hole but the ones bitching the loudest will do the only thing they know how. And thats bitchh and moan.
 
one_dryboot---That may be the case because of how some people are, but I can tell you that I, for one, would issue a full apology to everyone involved with the SFW if the books prove that things are legit and would not say another word about it. However, I would not chnage my view on how that money is made compared to most organizations.
 
No Topgun you are wrong. THe expenditures only show what money was spent but not made, profit. One page pulled out of context which can be turned and twisted anyway people want. They buy landowner permits then sell them. Money make off those permits is profit. Not the money spent to get them. If you buy something for a dollar, and sell it for two, is that two dollars profit? I guess in your book it is. And what I said in the previous statement about Don is correct. But then again, you do not want the truth becuase you and others cannot handle the truth. No I do not like to see money squandered hard earned or not. But I am smart enough to know that expense does not equal income. That is a business fact. You spend money to make money. The money you make is profit. That is business. And the complaining will never go away no matter what is showed. To many people full of hatred for verious reasons.
 
Anyone want to guess the most expensive hotel room that got charged to this precious 501C3 since inception? How about the dinner that cost most? Anyone want to guess the amount paid to the individual that was paid the most consulting fees since inception? How about if you add consulting fees and amounts paid to affiliated parties of that individual?

You'll never know. No need to guess. Trust and do not verify. That is funny right there.
 
Let's set a rule that birdman and popgun can not get on here anymore and argue. THE HORSE IS DEAD!!!
 
Birdman---I would appreciate it if you would immediately discontinue posting all your BS about me. You are making ridiculous statements about me and you don't know me from a can of paint! All your retorts on this thread have basically been attacks against me with nothing factual and only conjecture on your part, much the same as when you're telling us over and over that "you know" SFW is clean, but with absolutely no facts to back yourself up. In my posts I have commented on expenditures of the SFW that are in question and those are in black and white, regardless of whether we know their total incoming money or not. We understand the tag money expenditure, so drop that and focus on the other lines that are definitely outgoing with nothing to support what they actually were or where they went (Misc. & Other Expenses). You know exactly what Outdoors is referring to in his post and yet you now mock him with your ridiculous comment. Since we don't know because they won't open their books, the only thing we can go by is the little bit we can find out about where some of the money went and it stinks. Hundreds of thousands of dollars went to a wolf campaign that turned out to be completely against the Tester Bill that finally delisted them and then they had the balls to take credit for getting the delisting! Why? We all know, but you have your head in the sand on that one too. Hundreds of thousands are going to Peay in consulting fees the way he set the organization up. How do you think he can afford that fancy, expensive log home he built when it appears he has only been involved with SFW for quite a few years now? How can you justify hundreds of thousands of dollars to be listed under the "Misc." and "Other Expenses" columns. You have put up quite a few posts on this thread in the last two days and not one has answered what I, and others, have asked of you. Nope, all your posts have been silly retorts just like the last one to Outdoors. Your complete lack of knowledge of what's going on while you're trying to mount a defense for SFW is laughable at best. Please don't even respond to this post because I said I was done and then you came right back and basically forced me to respond after reading your last two posts. Than you!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-12 AT 03:51PM (MST)[p]I apologize and agree that I should not have even continued this thread with him and it's over as of right now!
 
Like I said before. Part of a tax return means nothing. Money goes out and money comes in. The difference is profit. Expenditures mean nothing without all the other pages. just like others without the full return the true facts are not known. And talk about laughable, Topgun leads the list. Thanks for the laughs. And please topgun dont come on an answer this as I also am tired of listing to you.
 
I am not going to lie, but I am more tired of the brainwashed thinking/talking of Birdman. The writing is clear. Thanks Topgun for your thoughts. I do agree with you on most everything. Let's just try to keep this thread as a point for people to see what and when this debate is all about.
 
Topgun thanks for all your thoughts and comments on these topics even though you are not a resident of Utah I am and I can tell you that you are spot on the money when you post your feelings towards SFW. I wish I could take half of your knowledge and give it to the 10% of our hunting population that blindedly hands over their hard earned money to these guys trusting them to apply a hell of a lot more than 15% back into bettering our states wildlife.15%? where's the rest? How much did the RMEF give back? How about DU? Don't worry your self to death SFW has seen it's best days the people around Utah are finally starting to wake up and realize SFW was not as though they appeared to be on the surface.

Oh and by the way don't pay to much mind to Anything Antler it's quite obvious he's sniffin' all the right butts so he can be the next one on the SFW payroll someday. In his mind if he can't find a descent buck in the hunting season
or see them on the wintering grounds then they must not exist.If he can't find find them surely no one else can either so we might as well shut the hunt down right?
Give me a freaking break Steve!
 
Here is Randy Newbergs quote form the original debate thread. "I have offered to sign a non-disclosure agreement, prohibiting my distribution of anything provided. In my CPA life, I sign these all the time. They are serious agreements in my profession." I guess the books must be really bad if Randy cannot even legally talk about them and the Don is now refusing to show them.
 
>Here is Randy Newbergs quote form
>the original debate thread. "I
>have offered to sign a
>non-disclosure agreement, prohibiting my distribution
>of anything provided. In my
>CPA life, I sign these
>all the time. They are
>serious agreements in my profession."
>I guess the books must
>be really bad if Randy
>cannot even legally talk about
>them and the Don is
>now refusing to show them.
>
____________________________________________________

My thoughts exactly.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-04-12 AT 10:26PM (MST)[p]Why am I not suprised about the way this is turning out???
 
Just my opinion;and I could be wrong;but I'm betting this big debate solves nothing(if it even happens).It'll just be fodder for another(yawn) fight between you-know-who and you-know-who.
 
>Hey outdoors, why don't you just
>tell us. That way
>we will know and we
>do not have to guess.
>

I never thought Don would open the books. He did not. Don has the power to dictate providing access to BigFin no matter Don's declared "relationship" with SFW. Don runs SFW. Anyone dispute that? If so, please share the last time the Board over-ruled Don on a major issue or went a route Don did not approve.

Of course, with all the consulting contracts SFW doled out there will be no way to see in SFW's books how that money was spent once it left SFW's control. Consulting contracts to related parties can be valid but are also a great way to muddy the waters.

Sorry the debate did not happen. Previously, I merely disagreed with SFW methods. Now I disagree and feel pity.
 

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