DRAFT Wyoming CWD Management Plan

I am no fan of rut hunts to reduce mature buck mule deer numbers that are already low in many areas and will comment so. I am also no fan of reducing already depressed populations of deer with no solid evidence or verifiable research that says such a drastic measure works.

I get the importance of getting a handle on CWD, but throwing stuff at the wall trying to see if something sticks is the wrong approach.
 
Hey, let's kill them all before they die? This makes no sense to me at all. Is the treatment for cancer to kill everything that may contract cancer before it actually does?

Rich
 
jm77,
I also agree with you. Throwing stuff at the wall to see if it sticks is no way to manage wildlife. Sounds like most of the State of Wyoming is going to get a taste of what has been going on in NW Wyoming.

just sayin...mh
 
They have not even done enough research on cwd to even consider such drastic measures. They simply dont know enough about it
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-04-19 AT 09:49AM (MST)[p]They use CWD as an excuse.

That video of Ted nudget and joe rogan on youtube on CWD gives a lot of good info that I never knew that many fail to report on. I know many disagree with uncle Ted but its another angle of info to look at.


Im tired of hearing the local wardens blame every dead deer on CWD, hell they even test road kill and blame reason of death on CWD.

I have some whitetails I have been watching for a few years. One buck has been outsmarting us for a few years. Well this year my dad put the hammer on this monster whitetail. Talk about one fat healthy deer. Went to the taxidermist and the game warden grabbed the sample. 2 weeks later my dad got a email saying positive and they recommend disposing of the meat. Well I have been eating positive CWD deer for years and all has been fine.. I have never seen a deer suffer due to CWD. now blue tongue is no joke, that is lethal.

I mean look at the elk feed grounds, they are using CWD as the push. well the environmentalist are.


but the game warden that took the sample had zero knowledge on CWD. he went on how horrible it is and deer are dying in bi numbers and blah blah blah. But he uses it to control hunting seasons. I played the youtube video. his excuse was Ted nudget was an idiot. my response was that I have more faith in uncle Ted than I do you due to your history as a piss poor game warden. I know I know your thinking what a bad attitude I have but this guy gave me some issues a few years ago and he was in the wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I think we should keep the studies up on CWD and monitor it but I disagree how they use it to full advantage.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-04-19 AT 11:53AM (MST)[p]I don't post pictures online anymore. But you can always PM me a number or email.

The buck will also be in casper on jan.11th for a big buck contest. Its a contest put on by IBEW local 322. Any electrician/lineman can enter. Funny story another buck I watched for a couple of years my dad shot last year. In casper last year he took first and won a .338. This year he is on track to win again. I won a .270 5 years ago
 
This is my experience in 2019 with Cody, Wyoming regional biologists and with one game warden. This year I have been told the following by these people with regard to the supposed decline in the Clarks Fork mule deer herd:

1) it is the result of winterkill in 2017-2018 and 2018-2019
2) it is the result of a lack of leafy browse on the winter range
3) it is the result of CWD

What I have not been told by anyone working in this region is that the supposed decline of the Clarks Fork mule deer herd is the result of wolf, lion or grizzly bear predation. I have been told by a large carnivore G&F biologist in the area that lion populations are significantly up in the region. With regard to wolf populations, the local G&F people state the numbers at 300 and are sticking to that figure. With regard to grizzly bear populations, the local G&F people state they are at 700 and are sticking to that figure.

Like nfh, I am skeptical about what the local G&F may or may not be claiming now. Make the effort, spend the money, do the studies and get it right before making any further decisions with regard to deer herds. With the Sunlight/Crandall check station on the Chief Joseph Highway in 2019, and also in Clark, Wyoming the G&F should know if the deer checked had CWD. I will tell you at the Cody check station on November 1, 2019, the biologist who checked my deer removed nothing to test my buck for CWD.

Shooting from the hip to see what sticks is not a long term strategy.

just sayin...mh
 
Well said MH.

I took my boys to that Game and Fish youth day they had at the fair grounds. They gave away 55 lifetime youth tags all donated by local business. My boys couldn't enter due to the rules being have to be 10 years or older. Was a great turn out. Boys got to do a scavenger hunt they put on.
my only complaint was they used the same building to the meeting you and I went to. But they only used 30 percent of the room and everyone was jam packed. All the parents were talking right where the kids were trying to get in and do the game.

the highlight was the Lord almighty himself. The number 1 game warden. The 2 faced crooked sucker himself. Well mightyhunter who know who I am speaking of but anyway all night he had his curly headed puppet next to him all night filling him up with more grand ideas on how to screw up more stuff. This makes me nervous
 
Its funny watching the ax grinding on this thread.

While I'll admit right off, I haven't attended local meetings on deer in the Cody area, a friend of mine attends most/all of them.

He told me that during public testimony at a recent meeting neither nfh or mightyhunter said a single word.

Mightyhunter, since you want to blame predators, just for the record, how many wolves did you shoot this year? Lion? Black bear? Were black bear quotas filled this year in the Cody area? How about lion quotas? Have you looked into running hounds? Would it do any good to increase quotas that aren't being filled now?

Anyone want to talk about the outfitter pressure on deer around Cody? I saw plenty of that.

How about long range shooting? Do any of the outfitters in the area have long range rifles for their clients to use? Any of them put on long range shooting schools? Where are the long range rifle manufactures located in Wyoming? Anywhere near Cody? Do long range hunters have anything to do with fewer bucks?

Based on what the GF has to work with, and the FACTS that the deer numbers are low, why was it not prudent to reduce the NR deer quotas? Why was it wrong to reduce the season length?

Are your grievances really with the department mismanaging the resource or the fact they're not putting your needs as hunters in front of doing what's best for the resource?

IMO/E taking some measures to reduce buck harvest to help the deer is doing what's best for the resource.

If that means you have to personally sacrifice some of your hunting, well, that's just the way it SHOULD be.

If you both are getting the cold shoulder from the Department, judging by your posts on here, I don't blame them. I'd tell you both to go find the nearest sand and pound it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-04-19 AT 01:51PM (MST)[p]I would have to agree with buzz here. I think the problem here is too much hunting pressure in too many areas of the state. Anybody with a hunter safety and a gun can go buy a general tag and shoot a 2 year old buck and that is exactly the problem here. Want to do whats best for the deer? Then the public will have to make sacrifices but they wont because everyone is looking out for themselves not for the deer. Its not a cwd peoblem its an over hunting problem
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-04-19 AT 02:15PM (MST)[p]Your source at those meetings isn't very well. I just hope your source isn't that clown Ron Ostrom with the forest service. Instead of having a room full of people yelling out stuff they broke us down into groups of 6-8 people. each group got 1-2 game wardens and we expressed our thoughts/concerns/ideas. Read the threads from a few months ago from these meetings.

I want to see a point system. at least 4 points on one side. let these small bucks grow. game and fish does a point system for one year then quits. wow that works great, maybe try it for 5 years.

funny thing is i don't even hunt these areas anymore. I don't like mule deer. i don't like mule deer hunting. Im in for whitetails and that's what i enjoy

Tong Mong flat out lied to everyone. Tony had one on one lunches with some people and he flat out lied.

Cold shoulder from the department, well I have issues with one game warden that isn't good for the department and gets all his advice and data from one hunter. Also with cody wanting a new office building and straight out buying land from a park county official seems wrong. I would at least think shopping around could be a option.

I will not argue the Long range battle. Im not a fan of it. Does it need to be addressed I would say yes.

Its no lie we have a major grizzly issue. My 2 cents I think we have a lion issue and I understand doing counts on lions is near impossible. Wolf issue is getting better, at least we can hunt them for now. Since the predators chased a lot of deer off the mountains to ranch land I notice a high rate of road kill.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-04-19 AT 02:38PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-04-19 AT 02:36?PM (MST)

nfh,

Way to dodge the issue.

Study up on APR's, the GF is absolutely doing the right thing by not having them in place for long periods of time, even 5 years is too long. The science supports the way they apply APR's, they flat don't work at all long term, and its questionable short term.

Lion quotas aren't being filled now, how is that the GF's fault?

What did Tony lie about, be specific.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-04-19 AT 02:55PM (MST)[p]I didn't say lion tags not being filled is the GF's fault. I said I personally think we have more than what they think. Only a small amount of people lion hunt. And those people are die hard super secret. They look for that world record cat and would rather pass an average tom then fill tag. That's their personal choice. they get the thrill of treeing cats and running hounds. I hope to some day go out and try it.

At the meeting Tony straight up said Non-resident tags would be cut. Everyone agreed on that. Everyone was afraid of the season changes and he said he would not change that by any means. hunters just wanted to be able to hunt some nice bucks that migrate later. Even if that meant a slighty shorter season but as long as that time frame would fall in the migration period.

I don't have a solution. I know one thing. it will all get worst before It gets better. by that I mean mule deer will keep dropping off in numbers. hunting seasons will get worst. it will all go down hill. I understand the changes they made but those changes wont work. I realize changes don't work over night.

if you have a solution then lets hear your thoughts

trust me I can handle changes. I already have dealt with chris queens taking several elk seasons away. taking late season hunts away. I have dealt with it on the north fork for elk also. Did I like it or agree with, well not all. I just move on and try somewhere else
 
So Tony didn't lie about anything...got it.

If current lion quotas aren't being filled now, then why does it matter if the population is 10 lions or 100 lions, or 500 lions?

What would happen if they doubled the lion quota? Nothing.

You cry because mule deer numbers are low, but don't want the GF to do anything about it...roger that.

Your "solution" is to make sure to pound on them during the migration. That sounds like a great way to help the deer herd out, increase buck to doe ratio's and maintain age classes.

You also don't have a solution, but are highly critical of the biologists that are willing to make changes to improve things.

Unbelievable...and you wonder why you feel ignored at a public meeting?
 
Wow your really good at taking words and twisting them to your advantage. good job..

you twist the words about my thoughts on lions

you don't understand which herd of deer gets hunted at certain dates here. some should be critical of the employees of the GF. as I said earlier on game warden is controlled by his puppet.

why even have a conversation.
 
Buzz H,

Your information is not very good. I won't need to "pound sand" to show you the error of your input on the subject. At the original meeting over the deer issue, the G&F broke us into numerous small groups to solicit our opinions. That is where the input came into the G&F on the subject at the first meeting. They did not preserve a record of that input. They solicited no input at the second meeting except for written responses headed to the Game and Fish Commission. I had John Porter and also Josh Martoglio in my group at the first meeting. Both are local outfitters. The grouping was purely random. There was also the husband of a co-worker of my wife named Tracy. There may have been a couple of others but I didn't get their names. The G&F reps in that group were Luke Ellsbury (predators) and a young woman who works with the grizzly bear issue. Tony Mong also was involved with this small group but also moved around to some other groups. Which of your buddies was in my group? We were identified as group 1.

During the small group setting I offered lots of input. You should have been there. I got into a dispute with John Porter over what the G&F could or could not do about the wolf situation. Josh Martoglio was concerned mostly about nonresidents hunting deer in wilderness areas. At the time of this first meeting, neither CWD, hunting pressure or lack of leafy browse was offered as the cause of the supposed decline in the deer herd. Tony Mong claimed it was winter kill in 2017-2018 and 2018 through 2019. I have noted in previous comments on MM, that winter kill was never mentioned as a reason for the decline in deer numbers for any of the previous annual reports that I reviewed from the local G&F biologists for the area. Those reports are a matter of public record and you should avail yourself of the opportunity to review them. I could be wrong, but I believe they are called JCR reports. Winter kill is an issue just raised in the last two reports by Tony Mong. I don't believe the previous biologist, Doug WcWhirter, raised those issues. In those same reports, there is no mention of habitat problems or CWD. Am I being specific enough for you?

Prior to the first G&F meeting, and just after Thanksgiving 2018, I was told by Warden Queen with Biologist Mong present, that they were going to cut another 7 days off the 106 and 105 deer seasons. It was a random meeting initiated by them. I was helping a young man pack an elk out on Bald Ridge and bumped into them at a turnout. This was being suggested before the deer counts were complete. That seemed odd to me. I thought you did the counts and made the decision afterwards.

In my group there was a suggestion to reduce the LE tags known as 105 that included the late season for deer units 105,106 and 109. I suggested they eliminate 106 all together from the LE tag. 106 had only been added a few years ago in 2009 to the 105 LE tag. No one in my group suggested cutting the general season dates in either areas and in fact I was told that at least two of the other small groups did not recommend this. Again, is this specific enough for you?

No, I did not purchase a wolf tag this year. The quota in the area I hunt deer was lowered to 4 in 2019. It was filled in 10 days. Does that tell you anything? I do not purchase tags for the sole purpose of supporting the G&F. I don't buy black bear tags either. I have no desire to kill a black bear. I have been there and done that. The black bear is not prevalent around here. When trapping bears two years ago in Sunlight-Crandall, the G&F trapped 20 grizzly bears and not a single black bear. It took them less than half the time they allotted to trap those bears. Again, does that tell you anything? The two young men doing the trapping told me specifically the bears they trapped were in tough shape and malnourished.

Lions are an issue. The local lion guides do not harvest every lion they tree. They only kill the biggest lions. I sent a buddy who uses dogs for lion hunting up to an area where a big tom was working during deer season in 2018. His dogs were accosted by wolves within a short time of getting on the lion. He pulled off for obvious reasons. My son's daughter runs lion hounds in Idaho and has 3 Plott hounds. I do not have $7,000 to schedule a guided lion hunt. The local outfitters around here don't work for free. Do you have hounds for lion hunting?

I submitted a long written response to the 2019 proposed deer changes. It is a matter of public record if you want to review it. I was asked days before my written response went to the Game and Fish Commission, to withdraw my comments. This came from a Supervisor of the G&F in Cody. I had submitted the comments and response at the second G&F meeting in Powell.

Telling people to "pound sand" is a childish response. I know it is part of your online persona to act that way. You really should find another spy or control yourself before popping off on something you know nothing about. This is not Cheyenne or Eastern Wyoming and the problems are considerably different.

My belief is very simple and consistent. You are an employee of the USFS and therefore have a strong belief in government. You cannot work for government and believe otherwise. I think the local G&F is a bureaucracy governed by group think and politics. They didn't care what people at the Cody and Powell meetings had to say in early 2019. They had made their minds up. Government knows best. Some folks accept that kind of reasoning. I do not. Is that specific enough for you?

just sayin...mh
 
No, not specific enough at all and you weren't lied to.

When you were told of the intent to cut another 7 days off the season in 2018, how can you say you were lied to when it happened?

As to the winter kill issue, winter kill is an issue just about every year, just varying degrees. Pretty rare bird when deer don't die in the winter.

Just because your group makes a recommendation, that just means its a recommendation. Show me where the GF is required to manage a hunting unit for the State based on the recommendation of one group of hunters at one meeting in Cody.

Who made the comments about the "leafy browse" and CWD? Have proof of that or is it just another of your "he said, she said" stuff?

The proposal was out there in the packet and the commission approved the proposed season changes. I guess I missed you at the Commission meeting where you defied the deer proposals and asked the commission to consider something different?

Also Dave, its pretty easy to see that your concerns for deer are not in the best interest of the deer herd, but rather what's best for Dave. Its in Porters and Martolgio to care about their bottom line, not whats best for the deer herd.

So, yes, I do put more faith in trained biologists than a fat old man that just wants to bust another deer in their back yard and some guys that just want to profit off the resource.

Finally, with deer in the tank there, how is reducing the season and reducing the NR quota a bad thing? How is that not looking out for the health of the deer first, the needs of hunters second (the way it should be)?

Regardless of what is causing the decline, you seem totally INCLINED to sit back and do nothing but whine that you cant continue to pound on the deer there.

For the record, you're right, I don't hunt deer there, but could have shot several bucks while sheep hunting. My buddy that lives there has a very good handle on what's going on with the deer there. His observations are not in line with yours, at all. He also works well with the Department and doesn't run around on internet boards bad-mouthing them.

If your tone regarding the department is anything like you post on this board, I wouldn't bother listening to you either, in particular when you haven't offered up a single solution to address the issue (at least that I've seen).

Your comments regarding the .gov...yeah, take off the tinfoil hat, you sound like a kook.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-04-19 AT 06:51PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-04-19 AT 06:48?PM (MST)

Buzz H,

Being lectured about tone from Buzz H is ironic at best. You have the trouble controlling your comments and your emotions. You have had this problem as long as I have seen your posts on these forums. You love to attack people by computer. I am a little chubby and nearly 65 as nfh and others can attest. I am sure you didn't mean anything by stating the obvious. I still get around fairly well.

I will address your questions even though you did not answer mine.

Tony Mong made the comment about the lack of leafy browse on the winter range. The CWD comments came from the senior biologist in the area. I believe his name is Troy but I could be wrong. He has been in the area for about two years. I ran into him this Summer in the Upper Sunlight while I was scouting goats for my hunting buddy. My hunting buddy is another 60+ year old man that is also a little chubby. Maybe you would like to insult him too. He did get a nice goat but not in my backyard. He was with me in 2018 when Tony Mong and Chris Queen approached me on the Chief Joseph Highway after Thanksgiving. He heard what was said. The senior biologist I mentioned chatted with me for about 30 minutes about his suspicions concerning CWD.

Yeah, you are probably right about Martoglio and Porter being concerned about their own bottom line. That may be stating the obvious. Porter doesn't guide for deer much but Martoglio does on the North and South Fork. Yes, the outfitters are responsible for some of the deer trouble in those units. I have mentioned that enough over the years on these forums. You might want to read my comments on the subject before shooting your mouth off. A few years ago, I stated that some of the outfitters were selling out the resource with regard to deer.

I have never shot a deer in my backyard even though I could with little effort. I haven't hunted in 105 for deer in almost 20 years. I have concern for the mule deer in the Clarks Fork herd. They have been below objective for at least the last 20 years. A 4 pt rule was implemented in 2004 and 2005. In 2009, the G&F cut a week off the general deer season in 105 and 106. The G&F said that would get the herd back. They cut another week off in 2019. The same warden has been in control of those units since 2004. Why aren't the deer at objective after all the season slashing? On October 21st, I stopped at the Chief Joseph check station. I spoke to Tony Mong. I questioned him about the last weekend of the season harvest (19th and 20th). He told me that of the 12 bucks checked on the last weekend all but one were yearlings. From a management standpoint, is that what the G&F wants? I saw a lot of yearling bucks in 2019. I also saw a lot of does with fawns. I saw a single mature buck on October 11th after a severe snowstorm in subzero weather. My guess is it was a migrating deer from the Upper Hoodoo and not from YNP. He was standing broadside at 590 yards but I am not a long range hunter. I never will be. About 350 yards is my limit.

I agree with you that G&F obviously doesn't have to accept any recommendations from the public. Again, you state the obvious. My complaint is that government has the tendency to stroke people by stating that what the public has to say to them is important. I have witnessed this for most of my life personally and as an attorney. As a federal bureaucrat, how many times have you done this and not a thought a thing about it? This type of action by government erodes credibility for that agency. You likely never realized that because of who you are.

I agree that winter kill is an issue in some areas. I believe the Grey's River had some winterkill and the G&F had the bodies to prove it in 2019. About 40 years ago, I saw a large winterkill on Moose Creek in Wyoming on the West side of the Tetons. There were hundreds of dead mule deer and I saw them. Most were fawns and does with some young bucks. It left a lasting impression on me. I have yet to see a winter killed deer in 109, 106 or 105 in the last two years. That may or may not mean a thing. We have coyotes, lions and wolves that may kill and consume the dying deer before they ever hit the ground. I find it interesting that winter kill is the new mantra in this area when it was never mentioned before 2017.

What group was your buddy in at the Powell meetings last year? Who from the G&F was monitoring that group? You won't identify him. How did his sheep hunt go. Was he hunting 2 or 3. I saw a lot of rams in 2 this hunting season.

We can go back and forth all you want. We have different perspectives about the role and actions of government at all levels. This hunting season, I spoke with Chris Queen and Tony Mong many times. The conversations were cordial. Chris Queen's skinny healer jumped on me while I was hiking the backcountry. He scared the s... out of me as he approached from the left. I am blind in that eye. Anyway, because I don't agree with someone doesn't mean I have to be disagreeable. That is something you might want to think about.

just sayin...mh
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-05-19 AT 10:42AM (MST)[p]Probably should apologize to the OP...getting way out in the weeds, although in fairness it was nfh and mightyhunter that hijacked the thread to make it about the Cody deer.

But, to summarize.

What can we agree on...well, the deer herd in Cody is not doing as well as it has in the past. I think everyone would also agree that something should be done to address it.

With that, what are some of the potential problems.

1. Predators.
2. Habitat issues
3. Long range hunting
4. Winter kill
5. General tags
6. Non Resident pressure
7. tons of outfitters
8. Disease issues


May be a few more to add to the list, but a reasonable start and probably the biggies.

From that list, what does the GF have in their tool box to deal with those.

1. Predators. I would argue the predators that have, or potentially have the most impact on deer, in order: 1. lions. 2. bears (no distinction between grizzly and black bears). 3. wolves. 4. coyotes. 5...all the rest.

The GF has lion quotas set high enough that they aren't being filled. I don't really give a chit why they aren't being filled save your excuses, but they aren't. Until the lion quotas are filled, I don't want to hear about it, the GF is not responsible for people choosing to not hunt lions.

Black bears...again quotas aren't being filled. Again, I don't care why they aren't but they aren't. The GF is giving ample opportunity for the hunting public to step up and fill the bear quotas to help with ungulate predation.

Grizzly bears, the GF can not do anything about grizzly bears until the lawsuits are over. Their hands are tied and the commission as well as anyone with a nickels worth of sense knows the same. Further, I would argue that even with a season, there wont be enough killed to matter and with harvest largely focused on males, a season could potentially have the opposite effect of reducing the grizzly population.

Coyotes, no closed season, no limit...get out and get you some.

Wolves. Here's the facts, currently:

HUNT AREA QUOTA FROM REGULATIONS SEASON DATES HARVEST COUNTED TOWARDS QUOTA*1 AREA STATUS DATE/TIME AREA CLOSED
GENERAL
1 4 Sep. 1 - Dec. 31 4 CLOSED 9/11/19 10:10 PM
2 6 6 CLOSED 11/6/2019 17:00
3 2 2 CLOSED 9/24/2019 5:25 PM
4 2 1 OPEN 0
5 1 1 CLOSED 10/3/2019 10:30
6, 7 3 3 CLOSED 10/20/2019 12:00
8, 9, 11 7 6 OPEN 0
10 2 2 CLOSED 9/29/2019 21:00
12 2 Oct. 15 - Dec. 31 1 OPEN 0
13 4 Sep.1 - Mar. 31 0 OPEN 0
14 1 Sep. 1 - Dec. 31 0 OPEN 0
Total 2019 Trophy Quota 34 Total 2019 Trophy Harvest 26

The GF is allowing wolf hunting and following science to keep wolves at levels high enough to keep them off the list, and also following the agreed upon state management plan. Quotas are adjusted per the best available science.

So, in summary the GF is actively managing predators to address that issue and in many cases, the available quotas are not being met.

2. Habitat issues. The GF is NOT a land management agency and as such has no authority to implement decisions to improve deer, elk, sheep, etc. habitat (exception being state WMA's). They are able to work in cooperation where they can with the various land management agencies, private land owners, etc. to augment habitat. I think they do as much as they can here.

3.Long Range hunting. There are very few hunters that are going to address this and its no question having a huge impact. Maybe one of the biggest impacts on the deer near Cody. The GF will not address/regulate this issue unless the hunting public demands it. The hunting public doesn't have the stomach to regulate LR hunting either.

4.Winter kill...it happens, every year, and there is nobody that I know of that can change the weather, even the GF.

5.General tags. The hunting public would come unglued if the GF were to take general tags away from Resident hunters.

6. Non resident pressure, I believe the GF has addressed via reductions in NR region tag quotas.

7. Tons of outfitters. No question a lot of pressure by outfitters in the Cody area. Lived it, seen it. The GF has essentially zero authority over the outfitters. The USFS over-sees the permitting on NF lands, BLM over BLM land, OSLI office over State lands.

8. Disease issues, not much the GF can do with that either.

With that knowledge, what tools does that leave in the toolbox for the GF to help the deer we all agree are struggling?

IMO, very few things with the exception of either making all the areas around Cody Limited Quota, or putting restrictions on general hunting (short term APR's, limiting NR region tags, season timing, or season length).

Those are things that the GF has the authority to deal with and that's exactly what they do all across the State. Doesn't matter if its general hunting near Cody, the Wyoming range, Sierra Madres, Snowy Range, Laramie Range, Casper Mountain.

So, mightyhunter and nfh...what's your solution, given the framework the GF has to work with and the available tools they have for the problem (see above) other than say the GF lies, doesn't listen to the public, etc. to recover deer near Cody?

I'm all ears....
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-05-19 AT 11:33AM (MST)[p]>
>Probably should apologize to the OP...getting
>way out in the weeds,


No need to apologize to me!

I kinda enjoyed reading the pissen match!!


ClearCreek
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-05-19 AT 01:02PM (MST)[p]Thanks Lord Buzz, you know when you sit down and put your mind to it you do a great write up. I will excuse you. I understand forest service people very well. After doing a job for them 3 years ago I got to see what kind people they are, buddy system, hunt with forest service gear and horses, along using trucks/trailers, taking your daughter hunting, guiding other hunters for money, littering ETC, ETC ETC ETC

but that isn't the subject. I think this time I may have hi-jacked the thread. Lets see my first post on CWD then you twisted it. So on this post I thought I would just act like you
 
If bear and lion quotas aren't being filled, an easy solution is to allow trapping--at least a limited number of tags for it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-05-19 AT 04:42PM (MST)[p]In his last post, Buzz H raises some good points without the usual Buzz H insults and dicta. Look it up. I agree that predators, habitat, long range hunting, winter kill, general tags, non resident tags, outfitters and disease are all potential problems for deer. I also believe that this can vary significantly from region to region.

I agree with Buzz H that predators have the biggest impact on deer. However, again that can vary from area to area in Wyoming.

The person I know who is actively involved in lion hunting in Cody area tells me the big toms they kill have elk, sheep and deer in their stomachs. He tells me the smaller lions have deer and sheep in them. Solution: Eliminate all lion quotas in Area 19 for 5 years and allow hunters to purchase as many tags as they want. With the grizzly bears and wolves getting a break why give the lions a pass. It isn't like we are going to run out of them.

I don't know how the black bears adversely impact the deer populations in Sunlight Crandall. There are not all that many. Solution: If they do present a problem, eliminate the quota on black bears. Why should we give them a break with a quota. In the 2017 bear trapping, the G&F did not trap a single black bear in the 5-6 trapping areas in Sunlight Crandall. I don't think the black bear is the problem in that area.

I disagree with Buzz H that G&F is managing the wolf with the best science available. They do not have a clue how many wolves exist in Wyoming and the GYE. Year in and year out, they state a number of 300. With the next breath, they say that is a conservative number. That figure almost bit G&F in the butt in 2018 when you added up the wolves killed outside and inside the trophy zone and included wolves killed for preying on livestock. Solution: How about actually getting a count. I would be more than willing to have a surcharge imposed on elk and deer tags sold in the Cody Region with the funds earmarked to pay for the study. Don't say we don't have the resources. Quit spending sportsman dollars on grizzly bear studies that generate nothing. If you ever get them delisted again, don't schedule hunts for many years. Whoever was working for G&F, that thought that was a good idea and planned it, made a huge miscalculation. Idaho killed over 500 wolves last year. Most were killed by trapping. Allow trapping in the areas where the quota is consistently not reached and raise the damn quota. If you were to get an accurate count, the eco-elites would have no chance of getting the wolves relisted.

Deer habitat has never been raised as an issue in the Cody area based on the annual reports. Sure, we have had drought in some years. In recent years, there has been an abundance of browse and water when the mule deer populations were deemed to be dropping. When given some money by the MDF, I believe the Cody G&F spent it on a stuffed deer. Maybe, the money could have been spent in a different way?

Mule Deer doe harvest is still allowed in Unit 105 and 121. In 121, you can kill a muley doe through the end of November. This is when the Clarks Fork herd is in that unit. Solution: End all mule deer doe hunting of any kind on private or public ground until numbers are up.

Nonresident region tag quotas make no sense to me. Region F used to include Region X. The 2019 quota for both regions is 850.Despite the small number of mule deer in the various herds identified in the Cody area, why are we selling so many tags if the herds are in crisis. They sell fewer tags in G and H where the mule deer numbers are much higher. Solution: cut the nonresident tag quota to 250 for each region. This won't happen (too much revenue)as long as the local G&F can sell the tags to people who are clueless about the migratory nature and season dates of the various herds. P.T. Barnum was right.

I was accused of not caring about the mule deer in this area. I suggested to the G&F Commission that they eliminate all mule deer hunting in Unit 106 that being Sunlight/ Crandall. That was in my comments to the G&F Commission in 2019. It would have been a revenue killer for G&F.

Long range hunting can be an issue. I personally witnessed more problem in the Greys and Hoback that I have up here. However, there are certain guides and outfitters in the Cody region who push this. Bob Beck and John Porter are two outfitters that really like the LR hunting. It makes money for sure. Solution:
I don't have a clue how to solve this without a ruckus. Buzz H is spot on about this.

Outfitters are an issue. How do you eliminate or reduce their numbers? As the elk areas go LE and nonresident general deer tag numbers and seasons are cut, this may take care of itself. How an outfitter can get $ 4,500 for a 5 day deer hunt in the Cody Region is beyond my comprehension. Sure they harvest a few nice bucks but most are 2-3 year old mule deer bucks with spreads inside their ears. Solution: I don't know how you solve this except through the reduction of the demand through the marketplace. The USFS might reduce permitting but again money is involved.

Disease or CWD may or may not be a problem in the Cody Area. Solution: Study it and find out before proposing drastic measures.

Finally, lets discuss the issue of accountability.In the private sector, if you don't produce a desired result you get fired or demoted or your duties are withdrawn and your office moves to the bathroom. That never happens in the public sector. No matter how many times you make mistakes, screwup or miscalculate, you still have a job with all the early pensions, liberal vacations and other benefits. Solution: If you have had ample opportunity to solve a problem that involves the issues you are faced with, including not reaching the numbers objective, get another line of work. If you can't get along with the public, get another line of work. If you violate G&F regulations, you should be canned. The womb to tomb guarantee in the public sector, without accountability for decisions and actions taken, is one of the biggest impediments to resolving issues.

just sayin...mh
 
Very good write up MH.

You know i have to agree on the black bear deal. Seems to be something has changed last few years and you just dont see them or find them.

I agree end the muley doe hunt. Hunters that dont tag a buck shoot a doe for meat...

Also i would like to see a better grizzly count. I know its a sore subject but it needs to be better.

Also the random wolf numbers for YNP is a joke. They give a wolf number in dead center of winter and make a crisis about it. But thats for ynp and the environmentalist to throw a fit and use that to their control
 
Not sure if it would help much, but you could lower the price to hunt predators like Colorado did with their $100 non-resident black bear license.
 
nripepi,

A NR wolf tag in Idaho is $31.75, $ 50.00 in Montana and $ 187.00 in Wyoming. You also have to add the cost of a NR hunting license in for Idaho and Montana. I do believe you can buy more than a single wolf tag in Idaho.

A NR lion tag in Idaho is $ 186.00, $ 320.00 in Montana and $ 373.00 in Wyoming. Again, you also have to add the cost of a NR hunting license in for Idaho and Montana. You can also harvest a lion in Idaho by using your deer tag if the deer season in the area is open.

mh
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-19 AT 02:29PM (MST)[p]The mule deers number 1 predator is human beings the game and fish needs to manage the number of deer being killed much better by hunters and vehicles. Lion hunters have a plethra of technology now to make them much more effective at harvesting lions now then they ever had in the 60's during the hay day of the mule deer id be willing to bet there was just as many if not more lions then. The problem is humans they need to be managed in the way of a more restricted deer harvest
 
I haven't had time to read the entire draft report nor all the comments along this thread, so forgive me if this is/was covered in either. If carcass disposal is a potential source to add prions to the soil that last for years, what about a focus on that. Examples:

1) counties/town have easy access carcass disposal sites setup in each community to ensure carcasses get to a controlling landfill at no cost. The number of carcasses disposed of within 5 miles of about any Wyoming town is littered with carcasses and county commissioners have refused to address this issue for decades. The biggest reason people dump out of town is the landfills have operating hours and fees that cause people to just go dump. Easy fix!

2) Fine the hell out of people dumping carcasses in locations other then approved spots.

3) This option will piss a lot of people off, and I'm not 100% in favor, but if it helps control the spread I will get on board. Require 100% of harvested animal spine, spinal cord, and brain to be hauled from kill site and disposed of in approved site?

Finally I am a firm believer that life finds a way to survive. Genetics via natural selection tend to find a solution. I believe mass herd reduction via hunting will slow down the natural process. Just my opinion, and it could be complete BS.
 

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