Expo Raffle Legal?

[grizzly]

When I've been involved with raffles in Utah in the past, we were required to give a free entry to anybody that requested one to avoid state gambling violations. Hence the "No Purchase Necessary" clauses you'll see.

Does that apply to the Expo Raffle? Can a person get a free entry by requesting one?

Here is an article on general raffle rules in Utah... https://www.utahbusiness.com/avoid-corporate-gambling-know-contests-giveaways-sweepstakes/

Utah Code states (notice subsection C)...

(11)

"Promotional activity that is clearly ancillary to the primary activity of a business" means that the promotional activity: (a) continues for a limited period of time; (b) is related to a good or service provided by the business or the marketing or advertisement of a good or service provided by the business; (c) does not require a person to purchase a good or service from the business in consideration for participation or an advantage in the promotional activity or any other contest, game, gaming scheme, sweepstakes, or promotional activity; and (d) promotes the good or service being promoted for purchase by the business on terms that are commercially reasonable.

 

[grizzly]

Here's a SLTrib story about another raffle.. https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=51941808&itype=cmsid

In it, it reads,

However, Utah Code 76-10-1011 bans "any scheme for the disposal or distribution of property by chance among persons who have paid or promised to pay any valuable consideration for the chance."

Paul Murphy, spokesman for the attorney general's office, said Shurtleff understood that it is possible to enter and win the raffle without buying a ticket by becoming friends on Facebook with the raffle's organizer.

"You can have a raffle with donations [legally] as long as there is an equal chance of winning without making donations," Murphy said.

 

[Founder]

They're the states tags and really they're doing the same thing at the expo that they do in the draw every year. I know the conservation groups are involved, but in the end it's the state of Utah who's giving the tags away. At least that's how I see it. I know everyone wants to blame it on the groups, and they did put it all together, but the state of Utah ultimately has the final say in it all.
I'd imagine it comes down to what the Governor and Wildlife Board wants.
I really have no problem with expo tags myself.

 

[grizzly]

Interesting point Founder. I think once a private group is at the point that they're allocated the tags, market the tags, control the drawing, and profit from the tags... it gets pretty hazy as to whether or not they are still "state" tags. Even landowner and conservation tags were once "state" tags, are we saying those aren't "raffled" at the banquets for the benefit of a private group?

What about the two Dall Sheep hunts in the Expo in 2010 from EFAs post in the other thread?

And I disagree with the premise that it's up to the Governor and Wildlife Board, notice the article above was about the Attorney General promoting a raffle. They aren't above the law, if, of course, the law applies here. Which maybe it doesn't.

 

[grizzly]

Here's the rules to the Full Curl drawing where you can get a Free Entry by mailing in a 3x5 card...

 

[hornkiller]

If someone could sue $$$.f.w. and bankrupt them that would be great!

 

[elkassassin]

So?

I Usually see PEAYDAY at the EXPO!

Should I Try FREE-LOADING My Entries this year & see what Happens?

 

[elkassassin]

I'm Perty Sure I Ain't getting a FREE Ride!

 

[hornkiller]

$100 for whoever gives the don a wet willy! It has to be a good one and I want video evidence!

 

[Tristate]

It doesn't get hazy at all when the check you write for the tag is still to the state of Utah.

 

[grizzly]

It doesn't get hazy at all when the check you write for the tag is still to the state of Utah.

Then why are state-run lotteries illegal in Utah? Maybe you didn't notice the lack of scratch tickets at the gas station when you were picked up at the airport and driven by your guides to the bait site.

Plus, the money for the opportunity of "chance" doesn't go to the State... that's retained by a private group. The law clearly defines... promotional activity that is ancillary to the primary activity of a business. Is anybody arguing the Expo Tags aren't a "promotional activity"

 

[grizzly]

My question comes down to the basic premise... Are they required to give a free entry like they do with the Full Curl sheep hunts?

 

[Tristate]

Well grizzly if you think it should be illegal because lotteries are illegal then the entire draw system is illegal and every tag should be auctioned. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[grizzly]

Potentially. I don't know the answer, that's why I asked.

The law reads, "any scheme for the disposal or distribution of property by chance among persons who have paid or promised to pay any valuable consideration for the chance."

The exception is also written into the law...

...does not require a person to purchase a good or service from the business in consideration for participation or an advantage in the promotional activity or any other contest, game, gaming scheme, sweepstakes, or promotional activity;

Obviously, SFW is aware of that on their Full Curl drawings where the tickets are much more expensive than the Expo... yet they give free entries to anybody that mails in an entry card.

 

[elkassassin]

I Don't Know?

But can You Find Something Else to Make My PISS POOR Odds even a little Worse?

My question comes down to the basic premise... Are they required to give a free entry like they do with the Full Curl sheep hunts?

 

[roadrunner]

It is very illegal and should be immediately stopped.

 

[grizzly]

It is very illegal and should be immediately stopped.

It would be kind of ironic if everybody was so upset over the SFW/RMEF non-bidding process and it turned out the whole thing was unlawful from the get-go ?

I Don't Know?

But can You Find Something Else to Make My PISS POOR Odds even a little Worse?

Heck, maybe your odds will be better, go ask for a free entry!

 

[Founder]

The state is more guilty of pushing all these tags than any group. The state loves that money and has it all spent before the bidding even begins.
I can’t imagine that the way it is all done is illegal in any way. They aren’t stupid people behind the scenes making all this stuff happen.

 

[stillhunterman]

Founder there is no bidding involved in the expo tags, none. Is it legal? Heck I don't know, but the way it's run is much less desirable than it could/should be.

 

[elkassassin]

Are You Gambling grizzly?

 

[grizzly]

Are You Gambling grizzly?

Don't know yet. I have in the past. I did send in my 3x5 card to Full Curl just to see if they'll have a ticket there for me if I make it.

I go back and forth between boycotting and applying for tags that are rightfully mine to apply for. I know some people call for the boycott, but I've never called for it because I'm not sure the way to play it.

 

[grizzly]

I did send in my 3x5 card to Full Curl just to see if they'll have a ticket there for me if I make it.

Plus, if they don't have a ticket then that will start a ball rolling. And if they do have a ticket there for me, and I win... Well, what would be funnier than going on a sheep hunt on SFW's dime?

 

[Vanilla]

Would it shock anyone if some of the recognizable SFW names we’ve seen pull tags were also free entries?

I am not a very good conspiracy theorist, but I have very little trust around this topic and organization.

 

[grizzly]

Would it shock anyone if some of the recognizable SFW names we’ve seen pull tags were also free entries?

I am not a very good conspiracy theorist, but I have very little trust around this topic and organization.

Vanilla, I'm interested in your take here... Based on the available info, do you think Expo Tags should be required to allow a free entry?

 

[DW]

It just never ends....

 

[DW]

If you would have investigated BHA a tenth of what you've investigated SFW you'd actually have credibility.

 

[elkassassin]

Ya Know grizzly!

You could have just PM'ed me this Info!

But it's on the WWW Now!

 

[Bluehair]

Yup.....I learned something.

 

[Founder]

Founder there is no bidding involved in the expo tags, none. Is it legal? Heck I don't know, but the way it's run is much less desirable than it could/should be.

I don’t know either, but I’d guess it is. ???

 

[sticksender]

My guess the loophole is that....don't you still have to pay full regular price for the tag if your name is drawn? Making it similar to the process of applying for licenses in the regular draw.

 

[grizzly]

Ya Know grizzly!

You could have just PM'ed me this Info!

But it's on the WWW Now!

Yup.....I learned something.

You're welcome. Good luck and draw a sheep hunt, will ya!

 

[Tristate]

My guess the loophole is that....don't you still have to pay full regular price for the tag if your name is drawn? Making it similar to the process of applying for licenses in the regular draw.

That's what I was saying earlier. You still write the check to the state.

 

[ridgetops]

My guess the loophole is that....don't you still have to pay full regular price for the tag if your name is drawn? Making it similar to the process of applying for licenses in the regular draw.

That's what I think. It's just another draw. We have a bonus point draw, a preference point draw and the expo full random draw.

 

[grizzly]

That's what I was saying earlier. You still write the check to the state.

Only if you win. But not for the opportunity to participate, that goes to a private group.

The State provides the prize, but a private group runs the raffle.

So, is the "loophole" that we agree it is a "raffle" (which is illegal unless they give a free entry) but it's state-sanctioned so it's okay?

 

[slamdunk]

So?

I Usually see PEAYDAY at the EXPO!

Should I Try FREE-LOADING My Entries this year & see what Happens?

Mr. Peay doesn't have much to do with the SFW anymore, he's too busy trying to get "Hunter Nation" going.

 

[Vanilla]

Mr. Peay doesn't have much to do with the SFW anymore, he's too busy trying to get "Hunter Nation" going.

That might be true. He’s definitely still a very focused highlight of the expo. He walks around like he still owns the place.



Grizz, I have long wondered how they get around the raffle laws with the expo. My best guess is the “loophole” discussed here that you don’t actually win anything is how it’s justified. You still have to purchase the tag, similar to the state draw, so it technically isn’t a true raffle. Maybe? I don’t know. You’re not the only one asking that question, though.

 

[Dconcrete]

$100 for whoever gives the don a wet willy! It has to be a good one and I want video evidence!

you also offered 100.00 to whoever threw a beer in wade lemons face.....which I can’t stand that man either BUT..... why don’t you get the stones and go do both of these assault endeavors yourself?

 

[ridgetops]

Doesn't a "raffle" allow you to buy multiple entries per specific item? The expo drawing only allows you one entry per specific item, like the regular drawing.

 

[elkassassin]

Well!

He was Damn Sure there Last Year When I Hollered: Hey PEAYDAY!

He Knew Who it Was & Honed Right in on me!

We Chatted for a few Minutes & He was back to doing what He does Best!

 

[hornkiller]

you also offered 100.00 to whoever threw a beer in wade lemons face.....which I can’t stand that man either BUT..... why don’t you get the stones and go do both of these assault endeavors yourself?

Not sure I said that but if I did offer still stands! iether way I'm not going to that con show I have better things to spend money on!

 

[hornkiller]

A famous law breaker guide at a con show sounds like a perfect gathering!

 

[hossblur]

Well. You could just take that money and buy your Mrs. some flowers for Valentine's.

Dudes worrying about the various scams with $fw, are like dudes worrying about gonnorhea AFTER leaving the brothel.

I don't have to worry much about how many tags Heather Farrar draws. Or which rich dude wins the AI big shlong contest because I don't go. I don't give money to crooks.

I read the same cast of characters bitching about deer numbers, or DWR budgets, or whatever. Those same dudes run to SLC like a fat kid to a donut to hand $fw money which it converts to political power, which gives them control of the WB, who sets the rules, approves the budgets, etc, that you all ***** about.

Want to ACTUALLY make a stand. An empty expo would be deafening.

But. .000000025% chance of pulling a late cow tag, is obviously worth that vote of confidence the governor will see as Peay leads him around.

 

[DW]

Hey Hoss, it still ain't March yet! ?

 

[txhunter58]

I am sure it is a loophole because the state is "involved" In Texas, my business is forbidden for charging extra for someone using a credit card. But, in the regs, it specifically exempts the state from this reg. So you can pay for your car license renewal with a card now, but you will pay an add on fee.

The law is always written where the state, US govt, lawmakers, are exempt from the laws they pass.

 

[Tristate]

"Want to ACTUALLY make a stand. An empty expo would be deafening."


I think the turnout year after year shows you are standing almost alone on this.

I believe in hunters. The vast majority of them are descent ladies and gentlemen. If they thought something was shady, criminal, or amoral, most would avoid it. Year after year they come to the expo. They believe in it. They believe in the extra tag raffle. They believe in auctioning tags off. They believe in paying for conservation.

What they don't believe in is self-righteous blabber mouths on the internet. Looking down their noses at rich people, people with plastic surgery, and people who wear different clothing styles. They don't pay attention to people on the internet that talk about "gonnorhea" and "shlongs" when speaking of people with differing ideas.

No I think how it plays out is perfect. Its better that those people and hunters stay apart from each other. Its better that the Hossblurs of the internet stay at home wallowing in hate and despair and the happy folks go to an expo.

 

[hossblur]

Really?

When You subtract out those who simply show up to play lotto, then leave. Those who are in the "industry" and the podcasters, you tubers, writers, you ain't left with many ACTUAL attendees.

The reality is the reality. Shady, corrupt, or otherwise, $fw has the contract.

Like Houston, Utah has other outdoor shows. They are fine. Good stuff. But if you think those welfare tags aren't the driving force for that show, then you are insane.

Proof is. YOU AINT COMING. If it's so spectacular, why you sitting home?

I see folks line the streets at RC Willeys or Costco for a free hotdog or samples. It only means they want a dog or sample.

Without those tags the expo is just another outdoors show.

Unlike you, I remember what $fw was like prior to welfare. Raffling rifles don't bring 50k people.

 

[Vanilla]

No, "most" Utah hunters don't believe in or attend the expo. There were 108,719 resident applicants in the general season mule deer draw last year. We are only talking residents. There were another almost 11,000 nonresident applicants last year alone. This doesn't even factor those that come to the expo that don't apply in Utah's general deer application.

So no, the vast majority are not believing in this expo, nor are they attending.

But don't let facts get in the way of one of your arguments now.

The reality is this: The expo is fine. There is nothing wrong with someone wanting to put on an expo. There is also nothing wrong with wanting to attend for whatever reason you want to be there. Be it to see big animals, hang out with friends, maybe take a selfie with an insta-warrior celebrity, or any other reason people have. All reasons are acceptable and fine.

What isn't fine is the corruption surrounding it. Make everything above board, and you'll never hear another criticism out of me about the expo ever again. Heck, even take the 200 expo tags and all the conservation auctions tags away, and you can make the expo as corrupt as you want, and I still won't complain about it. But while a public asset is involved, the public has the right to know what is going on, and for it to be a legal, above board process. It has not been that. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.

 

[Tristate]

"Proof is. YOU AINT COMING. If it's so spectacular, why you sitting home? "

The truth is I just spent ten days in Utah and I have to get back to work. I may still actually come. Trying to figure a way to get away.

Hossblur I love your math you work up in your head in order to get your mind around the popularity contest you think it should be. You remind me of a great quote.

"Nobody goes there anymore because its too crowded"


NOW we got to here about the "corruption" surrounding it. Some how this corruption you have talked about for years has never brought forth any convictions. Nobody getting fired in disgrace. Nothing. Somehow with all of the different police groups and the FBI, they just get away year after year with this devious behavior. The corruption must go all the way to the president. Maybe the UN is involved. Maybe there is collusion with Putin.

Quit your crying boys. Go have a good time.