Expo tags posted

LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-16 AT 05:28AM (MST)[p] Steve Collins Draws His 2nd Consecutive EXPO LE Elk Tag?

JUDAS!!!

Looks Like Heather Drew a Tag!(Nice Job!)

Another Guy Draws 2 Tags!(You work for the SFW?) (RAZZIN!)

Wondering if Relates to BIGJOHN mighta Pulled a Tag?(Hope So!)

Local Gal got a Turkey Tag!

Local got a Vernon Deer Tag!

A Friend from Tabby pulled an Elk Tag!(Nice Job Mike!)

Best of Luck to All that Pulled Tags on their Hunts!









[font color="blue"]"I Don't get No Sleep!I Don't get No Peace!"
[/font]
 
Yeah- Total B.S..!!


Buck Deer - Premium Limited Entry - Premium Any Weapon - Paunsaugunt -

HEATHER FARRAR DRAPER, UT



"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
You're right Griz, looks like he got an archery deer tag and the early rifle elk tag. That could be a pretty amazing couple of weeks in the Book Cliffs.

He could spend that last week of the archery deer hunt down there, leading right into his early rifle elk hunt... That makes me pretty jealous. :)

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
?? >LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-16
>AT 05:28?AM (MST)
>
> Steve Collins Draws His 2nd
>Consecutive EXPO LE Elk Tag?
>
>
>JUDAS!!!
>
>Looks Like Heather Drew a Tag!(Nice
>Job!)
>
>Another Guy Draws 2 Tags!(You work
>for the SFW?) (RAZZIN!)
>
>Wondering if Relates to BIGJOHN mighta
>Pulled a Tag?(Hope So!)
>
>Local Gal got a Turkey Tag!
>
>
>Local got a Vernon Deer Tag!
>
>
>A Friend from Tabby pulled an
>Elk Tag!(Nice Job Mike!)
>
>Best of Luck to All that
>Pulled Tags on their Hunts!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[font color="blue"]"I Don't get No Sleep!I
>Don't get No Peace!"
>[/font]
>
>
 
>Yeah- Total B.S..!!
>
>
>Buck Deer - Premium Limited Entry
>- Premium Any Weapon -
>Paunsaugunt -
>
>HEATHER FARRAR DRAPER, UT
>
>
>
>"Therefore, wo be unto him that
>is at ease in Zion!"
>2 Ne. 28: 24

Pretty amazing jealousy going on here BR to call the results of a computer drawing in Nevada BS!

And "tag envy" from someone who's personal mark is a scripture seems a little hypocritical.
Just sayin :)

I'm happy for all who drew tags!
 
>>Yeah- Total B.S..!!
>>
>>
>>Buck Deer - Premium Limited Entry
>>- Premium Any Weapon -
>>Paunsaugunt -
>>
>>HEATHER FARRAR DRAPER, UT
>>
>>
>>
>>"Therefore, wo be unto him that
>>is at ease in Zion!"
>>2 Ne. 28: 24
>
>Pretty amazing jealousy going on here
>BR to call the results
>of a computer drawing in
>Nevada BS!
>
>And "tag envy" from someone who's
>personal mark is a scripture
>seems a little hypocritical.
>Just sayin :)
>
>I'm happy for all who drew
>tags!

Other then they do not actually draw expo permits in Nevada hence the reason you can get a free entry if you ask so its not considered gambling per state law. Maybe Hawkeye will chime in here and tell me I am wrong but I am pretty sure I am not.

?If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.? John Adams
 
>Nothing for me...don't even think I
>know anyone on the list
>either, bummer!

there was a truck load of guys from my town that went up, not a one of drew
 
Thanks for posting info BESS

Congrats to all who won a tag! Hope you all have a great hunt.

Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-16 AT 03:15PM (MST)[p]From the pictures and video I've seen of her, I don't know why people are griping about Heather drawing a tag even if she didn't put in her $5 fee, hehe!
 
Statistically there is less than a 2 percent chance of drawing that tag (Pauns expo tag) if you applied every year for the next 40 years. And you guys aren't a little suspicious when someone who is well known SFW crony draws? Haha, no wonder our state allows the amount of BS it does for wildlife management.
 
>Statistically there is less than a
>2 percent chance of drawing
>that tag (Pauns expo tag)
>if you applied every year
>for the next 40 years.
>And you guys aren't a
>little suspicious when someone who
>is well known SFW
>crony draws? Haha, no wonder
>our state allows the amount
>of BS it does for
>wildlife management.


Statistics are one thing, but in a random draw where everyone is supposed to go in it on equal footing stuff happens. Take for instance the guy they said drew two premo tag this year. The only way it could be fixed would be for a programmer to set the computer up ahead of time to draw a particular name. That is supposed to be why it's done by an independent company that has nothing at stake in the drawing. Now after saying all that, it does make one suspicious when the same people draw tags and one draws two tags in the same year.
 
If you believe it's not rigged you are a fool!!!. Doug Degelbeck drew his 3rd expo elk tag, the same person who has the UT state record muzzleloader elk and brought that same elk to the show the very next year. Darick Mower drew his 2nd Wasatch elk tag. The same Mower family that donated 1 million to SFW the first year of the expo. Heather Farrer drew the premium pausns deer tag. Last year 6900 people put in for 3 tags. I would assume similar application numbers this year for 1 tag making odds 1-6900 and she happened to be the one who got it. Are you kidding me??? Why stop there, the expo should have given Denny Austad the Henry deer tag. Let's not forget former President of SFW and wildlife tag auctioneer John Bair has drawn 2 tags as well in the past. The first one was for pronghorn and everyone persicuted him on this site, he said and I quote "If it was rigged I would have drawn my bighorn tag, that's the tag I really wanted", then he draws it the very next year. If you look at where the tags were allocated last year roughly 30 of the 200 tags went to residents in Vernal, Roosevelt and Duchesne. Their populations combined are like 32,000. Last year 1 person from Provo drew a tag. Provo's population is 117,000 and they got only 1 tag? Hunter densities are flat across the state. It has nothing to do with more hunters live in certain cities and so more people are are attending the expo from those cities. 1 tag to Provo and 30 tags combined to those other 3 cities? Explain that.. This year 0 tags to Provo residents (pop 117,000) yet 5 went to Vernal residents where their population is only 8,500. 3 tags went to Heber residents, population is 13,000. Statistically under fair circumstances that has got to be impossible to have those numbers. More tags should be going to cities like SLC and Provo because statistically they have a better chance with more people living in those cities.This year excluding Provo the remaining Utah County cities pulled 29 tags. Their populations combined are about equal to Provo. So why didn't Provo pull similar numbers? Salt Lake City residents only pulled 3 tags. The cities population not counting the metropolitan area is 200,000 and only 3 tags? The host city where more people are going to attend because it's held in their city. 2 people from CROYDON Utah an unincoperated city with a population of 96 drew tags, 2 of them!!!. I guess everyone from the town must have been at the show and put in for every hunt 29 times because going off of statistics that's what it would take, the city's population in 1880 was 249 its gotten smaller since then!. This year 23 non residents drew tags that originally were resident tags when the expo was created. 1/9th of our tags went out of state. Great for out of staters horrible for Utah residents. For those of us who attended the show basically 1 out of every 9 people were from out of state, going off of statistics assuming wife's, husband's and kids who didn't put in would cross reference each other out from both residents and non residents. I bet 1/2 of those 23 are affiliated with the expo in one way or another. 2 of those tags went to people from Moses Lake WA, did 6000 of the 21,000 people from Moses Lake Washington fly out and apply? Because statistically going off of draw odds that's how many it would take, basically 1/3 of the entire citys population would have to apply to have 2 people draw. 1 person from Hawaii and 1 person from North Carolina also drew tags. How many people from those states flew out here to the expo and validated their applications? Apparently around 3000 people from each state because 2 of them drew tags!!!!. 2 tags were given for Book Cliffs early rifle elk. Both tags went to non-residents from Idaho. Last year 3819 people applied for 2 tags as well. Assuming odds are the same this year which I'm sure they are. The draw odds would be 1-1909, what would the odds be that both tags go to Idaho residents? Astronomical!!! Excluding turkeys, bears and cougars most expo draw odds roughly range from 1-1000 to 1-9600. Every year someone draws 2 tags. The odds of drawing 2 tags in the same year would be like 1-10,000,000 odds. The odds of someone drawing 2 tags every year like what has happened since the expo started would then be like 1-100,000,000,000,000,000. There are those people who say " I know so and so and they are not affiliated and they drew a tag, so it can't be rigged". Those are they few people who are thrown a bone to make it not looked rigged, wake up!!! I'm not saying any of the individuals who's names I mentioned had anything to do with it. All I'm saying is there are WAY WAY WAY too many coincidences every year, and statistics that don't add up. There are a few fortunate people who seem to be luckier then the rest of the population. Better then winning the powerball lucky in some instances (seriously) having odds of 1-3000 and pulling a tag 3 out of like 6 years would be powerball odds. The very first year by far was the worst I remember recognizing about 10 people who were donaters, SFW members or people who had hunting shows (Trail of the Sportsmen). We all tell ourselves its for a good cause and it goes to wildlife. That's what we say so we can sleep at night. Or we argue the drawing is done by a 3rd party so it can't be rigged. Well if that's your arguement, numbers don't lie there is a serious computer error that needs to be addressed or an investigation into these host organizations needs to happen. Just look at the statistics and draw odds and you will see what I am pointing out. I am not looking to start an argument or fight with anyone I just wanted to state some facts and numbers. If there are misspellings or grammer errors I apologize.
 
Well Phil!

It Must be Rigged!

The 1st Year or two of the EXPO People of the Basin didn't Draw SQUAT!

But By GAWD after we asked WTF?

A Few Random People of the Basin started drawing a few Tags in following years!:D

Would You mind telling me who I need to SUCK UP to in the SFW?

Not one Member of My Family have ever pulled a Tag of any kind in the EXPO & I will Guarantee there's been a Good Chunk of Change donated if you added it all up!

I Ain't Complaining nor Bittcchhing!

I've seen some Good Friends of mine Pull a Tag here & There!

It's Gambling & Not Everybody Wins!

My Luck in Wendover SUCKS TOO!(Must be Rigged!)

No Doubt,A Few of these people that have pulled a Tag or two have put way more money in to WildLife than most of us have but I sure the Hell Ain't gonna Accuse anybody of any Illegal Activity Until Somebody has some Proof to Back it up!

There's only one thing I know for sure!

You Ain't gonna Satisfy Everybody in this World no matter what anybody does!











[font color="blue"]"I Don't get No Sleep!I Don't get No Peace!"
[/font]
 
99% of organizations that run such raffles make employees ineligible. There's a reason for that. And yes I know most these examples are not employees, just constituents, but you see the reason why. It shouldn't even be left up for conjecture. Who was it the 2nd year that drew a sheep tag.....?
 
You misunderstand completely littlebighorn. My "B.S." outburst has nothing to do with Heather, and everything to do with these expo tags.

The fact that an individual who gives money to the organizers of the raffle, and could purchase this tag at the auction every single year if she so desired, just happens to draw it in a 1 in 4000 lottery that includes a whole ton of Joe Shmoes who will otherwise never hunt the Paunsy.... I'd say if you don't see something even a little wrong about that, then you are too far gone to discuss it with.

And my scripture tag couldn't be more relevant than this exact situation. We are all complacent with the way things are going in Utah. Wo be unto all of us, that one day only a select few will be allowed to hunt in Utah- and if you think you are among those who will, you are wrong.

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
I am going to violate my rule against commenting on issues when I don't have any first-hand information. You all know that I have been highly critical of SFW/MDF and the lack of transparency and accountabilty as it relates to the Expo tags. That being said, I personally do not believe that there is anything shady or nefarious about the drawing process that they use to award the tags. This is just my gut feeling and is not based upon any inside information.

The drawing is conducted by an outside subcontractor named GraySky Technologies LLC, who has been handling the drawing for several years. If you want to attend the drawing, you can do so but is all done electronically through a software program. I have not attended but llamapacker has on several occasions and has stated that everything appeared to be on the up and up. Plus, for years the only real audit that DWR conducted was into the fairness of the drawing process.

I agree that there are some stange results and anomalies each year when the winners are announced but I chalk that up to a random drawing process. And I also agree that if I were running SFW and MDF I would not allow employees or representatives of the companies to participate due to PR issues. However, that does not mean that the drawing is rigged. I don't think for a second that SFW or MDF would be dumb enough to risk the cash cow that is the Expo tags drawing by trying to steer a few tags to their buddies.

You guys may all think that I am gullible and naive but I have also been accused of being a hater and conspiracy theorist when it comes SFW. You can't have it both ways!

-Hawkeye-
 
You saved me a lengthier post Hawkeye in that I agree 100% with your analysis. Since the drawing is done by a disinterested company with computer software that I believe is very similar to that used in any random drawing the states do, I don't believe it would be very easy to do what others are alleging to give tags to known people. The only people that I think should be eliminated from the drawings would be paid officials of the two organizations. I have no idea whether they allow them to or not.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-16 AT 04:14PM (MST)[p]I'm familiar with the process and certain individuals are not allowed to draw. These are the guy who runs the draw/software and a few from MDF/SFW. Others in each org not directly affiliated with the draw are eligible but I think choose as mentioned above not to apply. Volunteers still apply as I know many who have volunteered for either org and got lucky to get a tag.

The draw is ran by the UDWR and contractor. The UDWR oversees the draw and verifies the software used to run it in accordance with the system/contract (eg 1 chance per draw per person, etc).

If it's rigged then a bunch of people in DWR would have to be involved, along with people that aren't eligible. I went as a public person for the first few years and I'm a software guy by profession. To me, it's on the up and up and just a factor of random drawing process. With 200 winners each year, you're bound to have familiar names or people tied or not tied to orgs, groups, outfitters or whatever. We tend to see the 1 or 2 here and there and ignore the 198/99 that aren't.
 
I remember a big MM debate about his some years back. It seemed that everything was on the up and up when it came to the drawing.
 
I guess I'm the fool for believing the laws of probability when it comes to statistics. I have never said names are being hand picked or anything. I have just analized the laws of probability. Doug Degalback has drawn 3 expo elk tags in the 6 years or however long the expo has been around. I'm sure Doug is a stand up human being and a great guy, but using him as an example in the draw process immediately draws red flags (nothing against Doug) most of the expo elk draw odds are 1-1500. If your name was in the "hat" 100 times your odds are still 1-15!! No one in their right mind would take those odds at Vegas or anywhere else yet we accept that there is not a error with the process? It just doesn't make sense. I've never heard of anyone through the state draw out 3 limited entry big game tags 3 times with absolutely no points. Maybe there are one or 2 individuals in the state who have. These would be the same replicated odds for anyone who has drawn more then 1 tag through the expo. To break it down you put in for a limited elk tag your first time you draw, wait the mandatory 5 years put in again and draw again, wait the 5 years and draw again really? This is what's being accepted. I know when I'm watching a computer do its thing computing data that is being ran by a program I have no clue what it's doing all I can assume is there are no errors in the program. Statiscs don't lie though.. There are serious anomolies that rear their head every year. The precious Utah Division of Wildlife over sees this process so you know it's on the up and up right? The next time anyone goes and watches this process just do me a favor and ask the DWR if Utah has any wolves, they wouldn't lie right?
 
I can see your point but I know a guy who has drawn every OIL tag in Utah and is 2 out of 3 on Elk, Deer and Antelope and he drew great tags and he's 35. Some people are lucky and we tend to focus on anomalies. The system for the expo is pretty simple the way I understand it. Each of the 200 tags is a "mini draw", meaning all the people get a number (no names) then they're issued random number 1 through X applications. Sort the list by random number, tie names to those random numbers and here's a list of winners, each tag at time.

I also see people draw multiple tags each year. Didn't a guy draw 2 amazing tags a couple of years ago? Someone drew 2 this year. Per the odds and probability this shouldn't happen. I know a couple of people personally who have drawn 2 and they could care less if the turkey foundation ran the draw ;) Just meaning, zero ties or cares to MDF/SFW and just go to put in for tags and do their thing.

Odd are odds, probability is probability, but I for one don't see anything fishy nor weird. In 10 years statistical anomalies will exist anywhere. I'm just ticked I can't draw one! LOL
 
At the full curl drawings what are the odds of one individual winning 2 sheep hunts on the same day? It's happened twice.

I apply all over the western US for tags. I usually have around 50 applications in. I have drawn 7 good tags in one year . . . I have drawn Idaho Super Tags . . . and I have not drawn a tag in the last 3 years. You just never know. I believe it all works out evenly in the long run but in the short term there can be incredibly "lucky" and "unlucky" streaks.

I don't believe anyone at SFW would have the balls to risk so much for so little, just to rig a drawing like this.
Plus, too many people would have to know for something not to leak out eventually. One disgruntled employee could torpedo the whole thing. I don't think Dapper Don is programming the computers or entering all the information himself.
 
Just out of curiosity hopefully someone can enlighten me. According to the 2014 Sportsmans draw odds (I can't find 2015) the odds of drawing a Sportsmans permit for cougar were 1-555 roughly 3 times better then the hunt expo odds for elk. Has any one individual drawn out for 3 sportsmans cougar permits since the inception of the sportsmans permits? Or any 2 of the same speices? (Obviously once in a lifetimes are exempt)? I'm talking same species.
 
I have a friend that has drawn (3) elk tags from the expo... And he has ZERO..... yes I said ZERO ties to either SFW or MDF.... So I guess the only thing I can think of is..."drum role"..... he paid off the validation lady???? Maybe from the Dealey Plaza....
 
Well!

On the Positive Side!

I Didn't get my Ass Chewed over the Post I made early this Morning!:D





[font color="blue"]"I Don't get No Sleep!I Don't get No Peace!"
[/font]
 
Tikka. Nobody has made an accusation that anyone is being paid off or cherry picking. The statements I have made were purely based on the laws of probability in reference to draw odds published by the hunt expo. My point has been there are way too many anomolies every year to be ignored. I feel its statistically impossible to have the draw results that have come out of the expo without there being an error in the process. Yes I have pointed out a couple of very peculiar coincidences as well.
 
>Tikka. Nobody has made an accusation
>that anyone is being paid
>off or cherry picking. The
>statements I have made were
>purely based on the laws
>of probability in reference to
>draw odds published by the
>hunt expo. My point has
>been there are way too
>many anomolies every year to
>be ignored. I feel its
>statistically impossible to have the
>draw results that have come
>out of the expo without
>there being an error in
>the process. Yes I have
>pointed out a couple of
>very peculiar coincidences as well.
>
Your posts really make no sense when you type that first sentence and then go on to essentially say there is no way the drawing is done fairly because of "way too many anomalies" showing up every year. If it's not done fairly because of what you're saying, that sure appears to be an accusation that somebody is cheating or doing something under the table to pick the people for some of those tags. Fact is that no matter what you think, stuff like this can and will happen in a totally random draw.
 
bigdogphilj -

Your Cougar theory above is 1 draw a year vs 40-50 elk tags a (give or take) a year in the Expo. How is that even similar? If they gave away 1 elk tag a year and a guy drew it 3 times in 10 years then I'd be baffled. I think the results we see aren't weird or unusual... just stuff that can happen in any random drawing but that's just my opinion.
 
>>Tikka. Nobody has made an accusation
>>that anyone is being paid
>>off or cherry picking. The
>>statements I have made were
>>purely based on the laws
>>of probability in reference to
>>draw odds published by the
>>hunt expo. My point has
>>been there are way too
>>many anomolies every year to
>>be ignored. I feel its
>>statistically impossible to have the
>>draw results that have come
>>out of the expo without
>>there being an error in
>>the process. Yes I have
>>pointed out a couple of
>>very peculiar coincidences as well.
>>
>Your posts really make no sense
>when you type that first
>sentence and then go on
>to essentially say there is
>no way the drawing is
>done fairly because of "way
>too many anomalies" showing up
>every year. If it's
>not done fairly because of
>what you're saying, that sure
>appears to be an accusation
>that somebody is cheating or
>doing something under the table
>to pick the people for
>some of those tags.
>Fact is that no matter
>what you think, stuff like
>this can and will happen
>in a totally random draw.
>
Topgun. Your right I should have read my post before I posted it. I meant nobody is being paid off to do the cherry picking. If the draw process doesn't have an error in the program or the process itself isnt flawed, somebody is getting their hands dirty. I was just leaving the latter part to be implied.
 
Read your first sentence of post #17. How can you now tell us what you are when you outright stated that it's rigged in that sentence? That means you are alleging that some person or persons is cheating the random system to give tags to chosen people, rather than the computer doing the drawing at random as designed. What would be the reason if money wasn't involved in your theory?
 
>bigdogphilj -
>
>Your Cougar theory above is 1
>draw a year vs 40-50
>elk tags a (give or
>take) a year in the
>Expo. How is that even
>similar? If they gave away
>1 elk tag a year
>and a guy drew it
>3 times in 10 years
>then I'd be baffled. I
>think the results we see
>aren't weird or unusual... just
>stuff that can happen in
>any random drawing but that's
>just my opinion.

I understand what your saying. I will see if I can clear up what I'm trying to say. The elk expo odds are roughly 1-1500 for each various unit. The odds don't change if there are 2 tags for said unit, instead of 1500 people putting in for 1 tag 3000 people are putting in for 2 tags.(look at last year's expo odds) Even if you put in for all the elk units you still have the same odds per unit just times 30 or however many units are available. 30 chances of 1-1500 odds are still astronomical to draw 3 times if you put in for all the elk tags since the expo has started 8 or 10 years ago. My far stretched comparison to the cougar tag was me just saying it's never happed with 1-555 odds since the inception of the sportsmans tag 30-40 years ago. How is it becoming more of a norm with the expo. When you look at previous years roughly 15+ people have now drawn 2 or more tags in such a short period of time with astronomical odds. Just super super super lucky I guess.
 
>Read your first sentence of post
>#17. How can you
>now tell us what you
>are when you outright stated
>that it's rigged in that
>sentence? That means you
>are alleging that some person
>or persons is cheating the
>random system to give tags
>to chosen people, rather than
>the computer doing the drawing
>at random as designed.
>What would be the reason
>if money wasn't involved in
>your theory?
Its called Hooking a brother up!! What's it matter if nothing is being exchanged. Have you never done a good dead for a friend?
 
>>Read your first sentence of post
>>#17. How can you
>>now tell us what you
>>are when you outright stated
>>that it's rigged in that
>>sentence? That means you
>>are alleging that some person
>>or persons is cheating the
>>random system to give tags
>>to chosen people, rather than
>>the computer doing the drawing
>>at random as designed.
>>What would be the reason
>>if money wasn't involved in
>>your theory?
>Its called Hooking a brother up!!
>What's it matter if nothing
>is being exchanged. Have you
>never done a good dead
>for a friend?

Okay, so under your theory money isn't involved. However, if it was one person always getting a tag I could understand that theory even if money wasn't involved. What you're suggesting is a bunch of friends getting a favor in the draw. What would the odds be of a person being able to do that for multiple people like you're theorizing and not get caught?
 
Hi Bigdogphilj, I drew 5 tags in 4 years as a NR in the NMG&F drawing with one of them being the Sargents any weapon elk tag, there was only one tag for a NR. Those odds had to be out of this world. I'll probably never draw again!

Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 
>Hi Bigdogphilj, I drew 5 tags
>in 4 years as a
>NR in the NMG&F drawing
>with one of them being
>the Sargents any weapon
>elk tag, there was only
>one tag for a NR.
>Those odds had to be
>out of this world. I'll
>probably never draw again!
>
>Joe
>
>"Sometimes you do things wrong for
>so long you
>think their right" - 2001
>"I can't argue with honesty" -
>2005
>-Joe E Sikora

That's awesome sounds like you got to do some hunting. Were the odds for each one of those tags 1-1500 or greater? If so I hope you bought powerball tickets as well durning that period of time.
 
Bigdogphilj I don't think the odds per hunt were that bad, but to draw 5 in 4 yes that had to be up there!

Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 
As most probably know I do not think to highly of sfw and their motives. That being said I couldn't see how or why they would rig the draw. And expect to get away with but threads like this are a direct result of their secrecy and they bring it on themselves by keeping everything they do a secret
 
I know a lady who won over a million dollars on a penny slot machine...in fact it was twice (both times over a million) on the same machine.

Some people are simply lucky.

She is now in federal prison for an unrelated crime so maybe she was not that lucky...
 
Bigdogphilj,
Thanks for providing your view on the statistical odds of how the results could happen. It does make one wonder a bit because crazy statistical outcomes can happen in a random draw because it is random. But, as you pointed out, it is odd that the crazy outcomes are happening more than they statistically should. Very interesting observation, thanks!

This was probably a three hundred post topic back when we debated this a few years ago. Had you posted this then, a lot of support would have went behind you. If I recall right, we had a lot of input from a lot of great individuals with firsthand knowledge of the process. In the end, I felt good in thinking that it wasn't rigged. I think that past debate is the reason why people are not jumping on the bandwagon that it is rigged. I hope that you do not get offended by people against your position. I think our past debate is the reason.

Again, I really enjoyed your take on the statistical odds of things turning out the way they do. It got me thinking again. Thanks for taking the time to present that to us. It was great food for thought!
 
For the past 6 years, I've put my fair share in the pot at the expo. I have 3 Brothers and my Dad who all apply each year for all bucks, bulls and Once in a lifetime. My brother drew Book cliffs Elk 5 years ago.

Until this year that was the only tag my family or close friends have pulled. This year, my Brother, who works 6 ft from me in the same office and myself both were successful. His being Book Cliffs Archery deer and mine Being Boulder Early Elk.

For the past 6 years the thought crossed my mind it was rigged... and maybe to some degree it is, but I can tell you I know zero people that could have helped us... this was actually the first year I set foot "inside" the expo.

I'll probably never draw a tag of this magnitude at the expo, or otherwise, so hope to make it happen this year. With that being said, I'm the guy that doesn't deserve the tag, but if it's rigged, no one told me.
 
Hawkeye, much appreciated...so much planning and decisions I'm not really sure where to start... but either way should be a great year. Thanks again
 

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