Fee increase and big game tag raffle

C

ColoradoOak

Very Active Member
Messages
1,920
Here are the two proposed bills.

Fee increase:
http://legisweb.state.wy.us/2013/Introduced/SF0032.pdf

Big game tag raffle:
http://legisweb.state.wy.us/2013/Introduced/HB0037.pdf

I saw the following post on the WY Game Wardens Association Facebook page this morning, which lists the organizations who are supporting the two bills:

"Many thanks to the conservation organizations who have been working especially hard to support SF0032 and HB0037, which will help keep the Game & Fish Department funded and operating. These groups include: Wyoming Wild Sheep Foundation, Safari Club International, Audubon Rockies, Wyoming Trout Unlimited, National Wildlife Federation, North American Grouse Partnership, Wyoming Wildlife Federation, Muley Fanatic Foundation of WY, Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership, WY Federation of Union Sportsmen, WY Falconers Association, and the WY Outdoor Council. No one ever likes things to cost more, but these groups recognize the efficiency of the Department and realize more money must come in or current services will have to be reduced or eliminated."
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-09-13 AT 10:40AM (MST)[p]Nothing wrong with the raffle. Pretty much the same thing we do here. Some talk about needing a restriction on the amount of tickets one can but but other than that, no real negatives.

"No one ever likes things to cost more, but these groups recognize the efficiency of the Department and realize more money must come in or current services will have to be reduced or eliminated."

I guess we can see why SFW isn't on the list.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-09-13 AT 02:18PM (MST)[p]The only real concern I have is cost and management of the money etc. From a budgeting perspective you never want to count on revenue that is not fixed. They have no control over how much money they will get. My hope with the money is that it would pool in an account that managed like a grant/scholarship. Meaning that the G&F could apply to have those funds allocated to certain projects, needs, etc... An advisory group would then look at all the proposals and determine which ones to fund and at what level.

Already I do not believe that there is enough accountability for the money in the G&F and now we are just going to give them potentially a large amount of money without any accountability.

For an example of what I am referring to look at the Colorado Lottery Set UP... GO Colorado! I would hate to see the G&F use this money to grow, etc. and then become dependent on the raffle money as part of its annual operating budget. However I could see it being used as specialty money to cover the unexpected cost of dealing with the FEDS, etc...
 
Only reason I would like to see a limit per person on tickets is because the big money may still risk it all... Old Denny probably wouldn't spend nearly as much on a raffle when compared to an auction tag, but I bet he still spends a good chunk. Way more that most us here could.
 
Good to see some hard hitters on that list. Hopefully they provide some additional persuasion for any elected folks who are on the fence. As a supporter of the proposed increases, I'm almost as excited to see the bills pass just because it means SFW WY took it on the chin...
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-09-13 AT 06:07PM (MST)[p]So much for listening to the general public who told them the NR price increases are way too much! At least they came down some on the deer and antelope licenses from what I remember the initial raise was going to be.

The raffle rules, if this Bill is passed, will have to put a limit on what one person can purchase or they might as well have an auction for the high bidder. That would still leave the possibility that a wealthy individaul could buy tickets for every relative in order to try and draw a tag it and use it himself. To preclude any such attempt the ticket should be required to have a name on it and the license would be nontransferrable to anyone else if that ticket won.
 
Exactly what I though. Say 5 tag limit per person at $20 a ticket? That would equate to around a couple $100 per person who put in for each one.

On the flip a $20 ticket, some guy with $ could go all out with $4000 and skew things hard.
 
I would like to see at least a little clarification on how this money may be spent. All I see is that there will be a raffle. No more than 2 tags per species is a good thing.

Will this go into Access Yes like Idaho does with their raffle? Will this go into Habitat improvement and land aquisitions?
Will this all be earmarked for administrative costs?

I'd sure like to know where it's going before I support. 100% transparency is a MUST. Will WGFD be selling the raffle tickets and managaing the tags? Will they farm it out to some of the Conservation Organizations and give them a cut? Will they have to hire 2 people just to administer this new program?
On the surface it could be a good thing. If we dig deeper, it could be a debacle.

I don't think they should regulate how many chances a person can buy. Currently, there are Commission tags available to the highest bidder. No way those folks will spent 1000's a dollars on a raffle when they can spend 1000's more to get the guaranteed tag. Sheep and Bison may be a different story, but I doubt it.

-Cade
www.HuntForeverWest.com
 
All of what you're talking about should be covered in the rules & regulations that would be promulgated under the actual Law. I'm a little bit hesitant on what you mentioned about not having any limits on what a person could buy as you never know what somebody with a lot of money would do.
 
Yep, and nobody is forcing you to pay it either.

Go find another state where you can hunt antelope every year in quality areas for less...

The whining is getting old.
 
Not a fan of the raffle tag bill. Wyoming already has way too many auction tags. The raffle are still just more tags taken from the regular draw, be it few. Once the raffles start, they just get worse, see Nevada.

Need more funding? Put state employees on 401K's if they are not already. Pensions are the budget backbreakers. That is where private industry has gone everywhere.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
"Zim...try researching the issue before you open your pie-hole (hint)."

For sure, as Wyoming has very few auction tags. If you are going to issue tags outside of the draws, a raffle is the best way to randomly do it so everyone has a chance to win, as long as restrictions are put in place to limit sales to any one individual. Otherwise the wealthy would still have the opportunity to really screw up the odds.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-13 AT 12:52PM (MST)[p]Buzz H, Topgun,

It looks like I'm not the one who needs to do their research before opening their pie holes.

It's not hard to find. Right on the WGFD website:

http://wgfd.wyo.gov/web2011/WGFD-1000606.aspx

I don't have a calculator here to count them up, but I don't know of another state outside of Utah that can top this. Maybe you do.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
Where does all the money go that is raised by the tags those Commissioners give out? It is not even close to the amount of auction tags like Utah puts out and each of those organizations can have a raffle or a bid process from one year to the next depending on how they deem best to raise the money. None of those tags goes for 6 figures if you would care to look up the money taken in and that sure can't be said of what the ones in Utah go for!
 
Why don't you go spam some more threads or websites so we can knock your proposal down a few more times!!! It ain't goona fly---period!!!
 
"The raffle are still just more tags taken from the regular draw"

Sounds like you still haven't reviewed the issues before opening yer pie hole. Commissioner tags are separate and don't come out of the regular draw tags. Maybe someone who has reviewed the raffle bill can advise if the proposed auction rags will take away from available draw tags or if they'll be in addition to. I'm betting they'll be additional tags...
 
>"Zim...try researching the issue before you
>open your pie-hole (hint)."
>
>For sure, as Wyoming has very
>few auction tags. If you
>are going to issue tags
>outside of the draws, a
>raffle is the best way
>to randomly do it so
>everyone has a chance to
>win, as long as restrictions
>are put in place to
>limit sales to any one
>individual. Otherwise the wealthy
>would still have the opportunity
>to really screw up the
>odds.


I agree and they should limit the number of power ball lottery tickets a person can buy so someone couldnt buy too many tickets as well screwing up the chances of those with less money lol
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-13 AT 01:59PM (MST)[p]Triple_BB---The Bill strictly gives the authorization for the state to establish the raffle. If the Bill would pass, then rules and regulations are promulgated and passed to put it into effect. What you are asking would be one of the things dealt with in those rules and regulations/ Therefore, it would just be conjecture by anyone at this time as to whether they would be taken from a pool and, thus, lower the odds of drawing a tag or be additional tags like the Commissioner tags ZIM is whining about!
 
"I agree and they should limit the number of power ball lottery tickets a person can buy so someone couldnt buy too many tickets as well screwing up the chances of those with less money lol"

There is another sentence that shows you are only out for yourself with that proposal you came up with to help you and your outfitter buddies! The heck with the average guy and just throw him under the bus so the guys with money can get the tags and hunt with you!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-13 AT 02:17PM (MST)[p]>
>"The raffle are still just more
>tags taken from the regular
>draw"
>
>Sounds like you still haven't reviewed
>the issues before opening yer
>pie hole. Commissioner tags
>are separate and don't come
>out of the regular draw
>tags. Maybe someone who
>has reviewed the raffle bill
>can advise if the proposed
>auction rags will take away
>from available draw tags or
>if they'll be in addition
>to. I'm betting they'll
>be additional tags...

Every auction tag in every state represents a game animal taken off predominantly public land, thus taken from what would otherwise be the general public draw. No matter when the tag was established. It most certainly is taken into account by every G&F department when setting harvest quotas. To justify them by their label or date established or where the money goes is just plain rediculous. An auction tag is an auction tag is an auction tag, all of which compromise the North American Model for Wildlife Conservation. Period.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-13 AT 06:56PM (MST)[p]2012 Commission License Authorization
District 1 - Aaron Clark
License #
Issue Method
Organization
Date Sold

12-01-01 Bid Goshen County Library Foundation N/A
Details: This license will be sold by Wyoming Wildlife - The Foundation. Please visit their website at www.whfw.org to place a bid or contact Melodee Marienth... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-01-02 Bid Platte County Library Foundation N/A
Details: This license will be sold by Wyoming Wildlife - The Foundation. Please visit their website at www.whfw.org to place a bid or contact Melodee Marienth... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-01-03 Raffle Chairbound Hunters N/A
Details: We will have 300 tickets to raffle at $100.00 per ticket. The drawing will be held at our annual Chase Swonke Memorial Prairie Dog Shoot banquet on... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-01-04 Bid Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership N/A
Details: We will sell the license to the highest bidder. The first bid of $8,500.00 will secure the license. Contact Neil Thagard at 208-861-8634 to place a... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-01-05 N/A N/A N/A
Details:

12-01-06 Bid Wyoming Wildlife - The Foundation 2/15/2012
Details: The license will be sold on the www.wyomingwildlifefoundation.org website for auction beginning February 2012... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-01-07 N/A Wyoming Wildlife Federation N/A
Details: Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-01-08 Bid North Platte Walleyes Unlimited N/A
Details: We will sell the license to the highest bidder by March 3, 2012. Please contact Jay Zustrow at 307-267-0287 for additional details... Click Here for more details of the sale.

District 2 - Fred Lindzey
License #
Issue Method
Organization
Date Sold

12-02-01 N/A N/A N/A
Details:

12-02-02 Bid North Platte Walleyes Unlimited 01/27/2012
Details: This license will be auctioned to the highest bidder. Please contact Jay Zustrow for additional details... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-02-03 Bid Society for Wildlife Forensic Science N/A
Details: Sealed or emailed bids will be accepted until 5:00pm MST on April 2, 2012. Send bids to Society for Wildlife Forensic Science C/O Dee Dee Hawk,... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-02-04 N/A Wyoming Wilderness Association N/A
Details: Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-02-05 Bid Wyoming Game Wardens Association 02/01/2012
Details: Sealed bids or phone bids will be accepted. The minimum bid amount is $7,500.00. The bid deadline is noon, February 1, 2012. The first confirmed... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-02-06 Bid Trout Unlimited, Platte Valley Chapter N/A
Details: We will accept bids from February 1, 2012 until March 30, 2012. The minimum bid is $8,000.00 and the first confirmed bid of $9,500.00 secures the... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-02-07 Raffle Wyoming Wildlife Federation N/A
Details: The license will be raflled on our webstore and at our annual banquet. The webstore will help with sales prior to the banquet set for March 31, 2012... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-02-08 Bid Carbon County 4-H Foundation N/A
Details: This license will be auctioned to the highest bidder. The first bid over $10,000.00 will secure the license... Click Here for more details of the sale.

District 3 - Charles Price
License #
Issue Method
Organization
Date Sold

12-03-01 Bid Upper Green River, Trout Unlimited N/A
Details: We will accept bids beginning February 1, 2012 and ending April 2, 2012 by 5:00pm Mountain Day Light Savings Time. The minimum bid is $7,500.00 with... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-03-02 N/A Lone Survivor Foundation N/A
Details: Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-03-03 Bid SFW, Evanston Chapter N/A
Details: The license will be sold at auction on Friday, February 10, 2012 at the Western Hunting Expo in Salt Lake City, UT... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-03-04 Raffle Wyoming Wildlife Federation N/A
Details: The license will be raffled in our Hunt Sweepstakes during the spring and summer of 2012. We will market nationwide via mail and the internet... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-03-05 N/A N/A N/A
Details: Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-03-06 Bid Wyoming Game Wardens Association N/A
Details: Sealed bids or phone bids will be accepted. The minimum bid amount is $8,600.00. The bid deadline is noon, March 1, 2012. The first confirmed bid... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-03-07 Raffle Wyoming Stock Growers Endowment Trust - Environmental Steward Award Program 02/14/2012
Details: We will auction the license to the highest bidder. The first bid of $9,000.00 will secure the license. Please contact Kosha or Jim at 307-638-3942... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-03-08 Bid Muley Fanatic Foundation N/A
Details: The license will be a live auction item at the Muley Fanatic Foundation of Wyoming banquet on March 3, 2012 at the Sweetwater County Events Complex... Click Here for more details of the sale.

District 4 - Carrie Little
License #
Issue Method
Organization
Date Sold

12-04-01 N/A N/A N/A
Details:
12-04-02 N/A N/A N/A
Details:
12-04-03 N/A N/A N/A
Details:
12-04-04 N/A N/A N/A
Details:
12-04-05 N/A N/A N/A
Details:
12-04-06 N/A N/A N/A
Details:
12-04-07 N/A N/A N/A
Details:
12-04-08 N/A N/A N/A
Details:

District 5 - Michael Healy
License #
Issue Method
Organization
Date Sold

12-05-01 Bid Wyoming Disabled Hunters, Inc. N/A
Details: We will be taking bids by phone or mail until April 30, 2012 at 8:00pm MST. The starting bid is $7,500.00. The first bid of $10,000.00 will secure... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-05-02 Bid RMEF, Cody Chapter 02/23/2012
Details: Bids will be accepted via phone or email. The bid deadline is noon on March 30, 2012. The first confirmed bid of $8,500.00 will secure the license...Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-05-03 Bid SFW, Big Horn Basin Chapter N/A
Details: The license will be auctioned by phone beginning on February 1 and ending March 15. The minimum bid is $8,500.00. The first bid of $10,000.00 will... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-05-04 Raffle Worland/Ten Sleep Chamber of Commerce N/A
Details: 500 Tickets will be printed and sold for $50.00 each. The drawing will be held at the Hunter''s Fest celebration... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-05-05 Bid East Yellowstone Chapter, Trout Unlimited N/A
Details: The license will be offered for auction on ebay in early April 2012. The first firm bid of $10,000.00 prior to the auction will secure the license... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-05-06 Raffle Washakie County Weed and Pest District N/A
Details: The license will be raffled through the Wyoming Weed & Pest Council. 300 tickets will be sold at $50.00 per ticket. A date for the drawing has not... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-05-07 Bid Wyoming Wild Sheep Foundation N/A
Details: The license will be sold during a live auction on June 2, 2012 at the Parkway Plaza in Casper, WY, during the Wyoming Wild Sheep Foundations... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-05-08 N/A N/A N/A
Details:

District 6 - Ed Mignery
License #
Issue Method
Organization
Date Sold

12-06-01 Raffle Wyoming Wild Sheep Foundation N/A
Details: This license will be raffled with 300 tickets costing $100.00 per ticket. The drawing will be held on June 2, 2012 at the Parkway Plaza in Casper, WY... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-06-02 N/A N/A N/A
Details:

12-06-03 Bid Wyoming Wildlife - The Foundation For: Old West Invitational Turkey Shoot N/A
Details: The license will be sold on the www.wyomingwildlifefoundation.org website for auction beginning February 2012... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-06-04 Bid Wyoming Wildlife - The Foundation For: Wildlife Conservation Education, The North American Model - Incentive Program 02/15/2012
Details: The license will be sold on the www.wyomingwildlifefoundation.org website for auction beginning February 2012... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-06-05 Bid Wyoming Wildlife - The Foundation N/A
Details: The license will be sold on the www.wyomingwildlifefoundation.org website for auction beginning February 2012... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-06-06 Bid Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership N/A
Details: The TRCP will promote this opportunity to their entire national database and will post on their website and other media venues. Phone bids will be... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-06-07 Raffle Bowhunters of Wyoming N/A
Details: 300 tickets will be issued on a first come, first serve basis. The cost is $50.00 per ticket. The drawing will be held at the annual Winter Banquet... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-06-08 Bid Wyoming Game Wardens Association N/A
Details: Sealed bids or phone bids will be accepted. The minimum bid amount is $8,600.00. The bid deadline is noon, April 2, 2012. The first confirmed bid... Click Here for more details of the sale.

District 7 - Richard Klouda
License #
Issue Method
Organization
Date Sold

12-07-01 Bid SCI, Central Wyoming Chapter N/A
Details: We will be auctioning the license to the highest bidder. Bids will be solicited via telephone. The first bid of $9,000.00 secures the license... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-07-02 Bid One Shot Foundation N/A
Details: We plan to sell the license by taking phone bids. The minimum bid will be $8,500.00. The first to bid $10,000.00 will secure the license... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-07-03 Bid RMEF, Laramie Peak Chapter N/A
Details: We plan to conduct a live auction on May 5, 2012 during our banquet at the Wyoming State Fairgrounds... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-07-04 N/A National Bighorn Sheep Interpretive Assn. N/A
Details: Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-07-05 Bid Water For Wildlife N/A
Details: We will be marketing to sell the license to the highest bidder. We will accept bids until September 15, 2012. For additional information, please... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-07-06 Bid Wyoming Association of Taxidermy Artists N/A
Details: We will engage our members to contact clients regarding license and purchasing information. We will be conducting a phone auction through January 30... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-07-07 Raffle Ducks Unlimited N/A
Details: We will be conducting a raffle with the drawing held on August 1, 2012 at the Cheyenne Holiday Inn. We will be selling an unlimited amount of tickets... Click Here for more details of the sale.

12-07-08 Bid SFW, Converse County Chapter N/A
Details: This license will be auctioned. The minimum bid is $8,000.00 with the first bid of $11,000.00 securing the license. Bids may be mailed to 1550 West... Click Here for more details of the sale.

When is enough enough?

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
Stang,

I see you are here too (as you should be). I have no dog in this fight, but please answer the questions I asked in the general forum.

What outfitter are you? If you aren't, who do you work for?

Also, what is your position on the non-resident wilderness lack of access??

You asked for answers earlier regarding points, please answer my questions.

I hope I am wrong, but your agenda is at the very best confusing.
 
ASB, his agenda is straight forward.
As a Wyoming Outfitter, (Strang and Sons) his client base is limited by the draw. Any repeat clients are also limited as they are now at the back of the line. By allowing those with few to no points to better their odds, over those that have yet to draw, he increases his potential client base.
 
Got it, just looked him up online. I have lived in & out of Wyoming due to work all my life, just saw all this BS this week.

Can we assume Stang is a fair & accomplisned guide here. I am thinking so.

But, if you are good......clients find you. Why does an outfitter come on here looking for more?

I have guided....if you are good, they come, period.

Enough of sucking the t!t.....how about dropping the wilderness crap while we are legislating??

Again, if you are good.....no sense in disrupting your reputation over a few tags. I am old-school, I don't like where a lot of these proposals are heading.....smells of big money.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-13 AT 09:30PM (MST)[p]
Auction and raffle tag specifics are easily spelled out.

7222clipboard01.jpg


6971clipboard02.jpg
 
ZIM---You didn't need to put that whole friggin tag thing up here as we all know where to go and how to read it. It appears you just want to argue about tags wherever you post and then tell everyone you are arguing because they violate the NAM.. Those tags weren't taken from any nonresident pool and it's conjecture on your part that it lessens your chance at a tag. I'm beginning to think that you don;t give a rip about the NAM, but it's all about YOU, YOU, YOU!!!
 
I dont think you ever posted your pointa I have nothing to hide. Maybe you have a personal agenda to hide
 
>ZIM---You didn't need to put that
>whole friggin tag thing up
>here as we all know
>where to go and how
>to read it. It
>appears you just want to
>argue about tags wherever you
>post and then tell everyone
>you are arguing because they
>violate the NAM.. Those tags
>weren't taken from any nonresident
>pool and it's conjecture on
>your part that it lessens
>your chance at a tag.
> I'm beginning to think
>that you don;t give a
>rip about the NAM, but
>it's all about YOU, YOU,
>YOU!!!
All tags are counted against the harvest quota which is how they figure the lic pool so they do affect the lic allocation. Those tags btw are many timex brokered by high ticket outfitters for rich clients of which I am neither
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-13
>AT 09:30?PM (MST)
>
>
>Auction and raffle tag specifics are
>easily spelled out.
>
>
7222clipboard01.jpg

>
>
6971clipboard02.jpg



looks like Oregon has no limit on raffle tickets
 
You don't know squat about the draw! You don't know squat about the Wyoming residency requirements for buying licenses! Now you come on and tell us that garbage about these Commissioners tags when they are given out to organizations to be raffled or auctioned off by them and not some outfitter. They are completely different from the few Governors tags that may go to the Utah Expo or other places for very high prices. How can they be figured into any license pool when usually they aren't even limited to one unit and many/most times the person who gets the winner can pick where they want to use it. It may be time for you to cease your posting because most everything you state about hunting in Wyoming is incorrect!
 
The outfitters travel around or bid by phone for these tags. They are figured into the mortality quoata of the current year for targeting the quoata for the following year. And can effect the quoata for a particular unit depending on where they are used. Outfitters are solicited by all those organizations who recieve those tags and invite them to bid. I get letters inviting bids from the organizations who sell those licenses every year.
 
An outfitter bidding on a tag or having a person he is doing proxy bidding for is a lot different than the tag being given to him to decide how he's going to use it and how much he can get for it for Pete's sake. How can they figure a tag into any particular quota when a lot of those tags offer the winner the pick of an elk, deer, or antelope license for use anywhere in the state? No more conjecture on your part! Please tell us how they can do it when the tags haven't even been sold to know what animal a person has picked and where he has decided to use the tag?
 
Top is correct. If all the commissioners winners all hunted an area that gave out a small amount of tags like elk 31, they might adjust quotas lower the following season. However they'd also be looking at total harvest, winter mortality, winter surveys, range conditions, etc. Its possible based on info from the noted factors that they might not change anything. If I bought a commissioners tag and hunted elk in area 7, the G&F wouldn't do squat as far as adjusting quotas the following season. So making a blanket statement that they adjust quotas based on commissioners tag hunters in area as noted by zim and stang is a load of crapola...
 
As I said it affects the units selected total of animals taken and is part of the management decision for the following year. If a unit has 5 tags then 2 gov tags are used in that unit then the area harvest is 7 so that must be considered for the following year. Gov tags typically arent bought for units with large amounts of tags. I never said a tag was given to an outfitter I said they broker them. Or to use your term proxybid
 
All tags are counted against the harvest quota which is how they figure the lic pool so they do affect the lic allocation. here is what I said so if you plug your area 31 example in here what I said is correct
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-12-13 AT 09:31PM (MST)[p]There are some some real delusional, rude and just plain wrong posters on this thread that just can't seem to post without making a personal attack, so I will play your game. Just can't admit you are wrong and apologize even when all the facts are posted right in your face and pie holes.

The OP starts the thread about these 2 new proposals so I politely post my opinion as follows: "Not a fan of the raffle tag bill. Wyoming already has way too many auction tags. The raffle are still just more tags taken from the regular draw, be it few. Once the raffles start, they just get worse, see Nevada."

Then Buzz & Topgun personally attack me with these totally ignorant gems: "Zim...try researching the issue before you open your pie-hole (hint)." and "For sure, as Wyoming has very few auction tags."

After which I point out Wyoming has the 2nd most auction tags in the entire United States. A laundry list 2nd only to Utah. I even post the link and then all of them individually after both conveniently avoid my response. Is it so hard for you guys to admit you are both guilty of the exact failure to research that you claimed I was guilty of?.............and simply apologize?

No. Instead, Topgun tries to hide behind a rock with this gem! :)

>ZIM---You didn't need to put that
>whole friggin tag thing up
>here as we all know
>where to go and how
>to read it. It
>appears you just want to
>argue about tags wherever you
>post and then tell everyone
>you are arguing because they
>violate the NAM.. Those tags
>weren't taken from any nonresident
>pool and it's conjecture on
>your part that it lessens
>your chance at a tag.

Which is it Topgun?......."a few".......or "that whole friggin tag thing"? What's the problem? You yourself said it's just "a few".

On top of this joke, where did I ever say these tags were taken from the "nonresident pool"??? Give me the post number.

I simply pointed out all auction and raffle tags in every state violate the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation, which they most definitely do.........unless you are an outfitter wanting to boost your business at any expense. Every one represents an opportunity that would otherwise be available in the regular draw. To rationalize it any other way is just pure fantasy. As if every animal harvested with an auction tag is somehow insulated and has no impact on a state's game population. Just rediculous.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
" Every one represents an opportunity that would otherwise be available in the regular draw."

In Or, our Auction and Raffle tags are in addition to, not taken from, the draw. So, the TAG is not an opportunity taken away. If you were referring to the game animal itself, yes, that harvested animal is one less for a draw hunter to take.

Oregon does NOT limit raffle tags and yes, names get familiar.

http://www.dfw.state.or.us/resources/hunting/auctions_raffles/raffle_winners.asp#2012
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-12-13 AT 09:48PM (MST)[p]>Triple_BB---Talking to this guy is like
>trying to talk to the
>wall, LOL!

Topgun, Speaking of talking to a wall, LOL. When you gonna apologize and admit it was you and Buzz with the loose "pie holes" about Wyoming having "just a few" auction tags? They have the 2nd most in the United States!

That list above look like "just a few"? LOL!

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-13-13 AT 06:32AM (MST)[p]It's semantics ZIM! A "few" is what I meant compared to the huge amount that Utah gives out with very little of the profits coming back to the state like almost all of it does in Wyoming. The reason I said nonresident pool is because YOU are always the one who is complaining about losing YOUR opportunity to draw a NR tag somewhere! Then YOU come on and say it's because they violate the NAM like that's your only worry. ONE given out ANYWHERE would technically violate the NAM and I think you need to look at the big picture and see the good that comes from some of them if the money is properly put back on the ground. We don't live in a perfect world where everyone will be happy, but don't put Wyoming in with the way Utah subsidizes organizations with that money that isn't accounted for! Wyoming has good programs and great oversight of all the money that is taken in from the Governor tags, as well as those that the Commissioners give out. The Bill for these raffle tags limits them to a couple for a few species and if passed I would hope that it will be worked out so anyone can buy the chances and that there will be limits put on them so the wealthy can't buy a ton of them and screw the average Joe the way the auctions do in Utah. You have also made statements that are not true about where these various tags are taken from and that they lessen your chances of drawing in a Res or NR draw. Please show me where you can find that information about any of the Wyoming tags being taken out of any particular draw pool. If you can, then I apologize, but the only thing I will give you on this is like WapitiBob stated. The people who take animals on those tags may take an animal from the herd, but they haven't taken the tag from your chance at drawing it because it wasn't in a pool and taken out to begin with! If there are going to be tags given outside a draw I would sure rather see them done in a legitimate raffle where everyone has a chance at them, rather than an auction tag which most definitely violates the NAM when only the wealthy have a chance at them.
 
It's funny that the bill includes the defenition of gambling to not include the raffle. "No gambling except if it benefits the State only", I guess.

Eel
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-13-13 AT 09:44AM (MST)[p]Topgun,

Do you have any idea how rediculous your response makes you look??? That laundry list I posted above is "a few"?

2nd most in the United States?

C'mon man. You F'ed up bigtime and won't admit it.

Then you go on to criticize strang that it's like talking to a wall to him?! WTF?

You made a personal attack on me for simply stating a fact. And my honest opinion........that I think 2nd most auction tags is enough. And that I am against WY expanding it's raffle tags. What's your problem? You got a cob up your pie hole?

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-13-13 AT 10:45AM (MST)[p]ZIM---If you don't like my response that's too bad, but Wyoming doesn't even have half the tags going to auctions and raffles like Utah and they have control over them as to how the money is handled, whereas Utah is lacking quite a bit and is actually subsidizing two 501C3 organizations! That is not the case in Wyoming! So you consider that list a big bunch and I consider it a few. In the scheme of things it is a few when talking about the total number of tags given for any particular species that is very hard to draw and, again, that is not the case in Utah because they pull a lot of hard to draw tags right from the draw pools and make no bones in saying that's what they're doing. I have not called you any names or said you're talking through your piehole, so please confine your comments about attacking and name calling to who actually did it! We will just have to agree to disagree that some of these tags may be necessary whether they are against the NAM or not. You evidently don't think there should be any and that would be great in a perfect world scenario. Again, I'd rather have a properly run raffle than an auction of a tag! Wouldn't you where everyone has a chance at it, instead of just the wealthy, which is what I thought we were all against for the getgo?
 
Topgun, You just set a new standard for guys who refuse to admit when they are wrong.

Period.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-13-13 AT 11:13AM (MST)[p]WTF are you talking about when all we're discussing is numbers! I don't see you answering any of the questions I posed to you Mr. Expert! You say they are a bunch and we say they are a few compared to Utah. Half or less is a few the way I look at it and if you don't, then too f***ing bad! What the he** makes you think you're the all knowing every time you post something about tags and the fact that everyone is trying to screw you. Also, how about the boasting you did like you were the only one that got the AZ tag grab debacle stopped when it was many thousands of us that were in on it! If I were a betting man, I'd say that 75% of the posts you make on hunting websites is whining about you not getting a fair shake on tags in one state or another. It's getting old ZIM!!!
 
>" Every one represents an opportunity
>that would otherwise be available
>in the regular draw."
>
>If you were referring to the
>game animal itself, yes, that
>harvested animal is one less
>for a draw hunter to
>take.

Yes, I was. Or one letter would clarify:

Every auction and raffle tag represents an opportunity
that could otherwise be available in the regular draw.

Every game animal taken is at the expense of the public domain and resource.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
Keep diggin your hole. Apologizing when you are so brazenly wrong is not that hard. Let me show you:

Zim,

I'm really sorry for my unprovoked personal attack on you with my following comment "Zim...try researching the issue before you open your pie-hole (hint). For sure, as Wyoming has very few auction tags". I was in fact a real idiot for making such a rediculous statement. I see now you in fact had done your research and knew WY issued a real sheetpile of auction tags, 2nd most in the nation. I feel like a real dope. In the future, I will try to educate myself to the facts prior to posting, and respect my fellow MMers. Also, thanks much for your key efforts to defeating AZHB2072. That was a victory for all true Ameircan sportsmen.

TOPGUN
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-13-13 AT 04:13PM (MST)[p]That was not me that said that! It was BuzzH, but the way you keep going on it might as well have been, so get a life! Do you think you're the only one out there that doesn't get drawn every time you put your name in the hat? How does it feel to have alienated just about everybody on this website with your constant BS about SFW/BGF and you not getting tags because all the states are screwing you by taking "your" tag away? PS: You still haven't shown us that any of those Wyoming tags have been taken from any draw pools to really be against the NAM because they are extra tags those Legislators get. If you can show us different, I will profusely apologize!
 

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