Follow up on NM needs better Mule deer managment

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BloodhoundBrother

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You know the coyotes are bad when you can sit on a hill in the AM or PM with a spotting scope and can glass more elusive predators than mule deer roaming the pasture.

I have been involved with two cases the last couple of years where deer were shot right before dark, had to go finish them off the next morning, and the deer had to battle about 10 coyotes all night before we could get there to legally finish them off.

I am on board to push the Game and fish for new conservation methods. I think Utah is going in the right direction. Scientists argue that this will increase the population of coyotes rather than decrease. I dont see how its physically possible for coyotes to increase reproduction if Utah were to continue to kill 6000 coyotes a year consecutivly.

I dont know how to go about it, but I would definitly like to push for something like this in New Mexico. I know there are some people on this forum that have more experience with the politics within the Game and Fish. So I am asking, how do we propose something like this below?

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs...-coyote-scalps-effort-reduce-mule-deer-fawn-m
 
This is a pretty small test plot for a deer study, but I have a small grazing lease 640 acres that no one bothers to hunt. I put cameras on our stock tanks and think we have about a dozen does and 6 or seven bucks. This is a pretty high buck to doe ratio but no one bothers them. These does all get bred and we see some fawns in early July but not 100%, Does will wax up just like a horse or cow prior to dropping a fawn and I think that the coyotes will follow a doe and that scent when she is ready to have her fawn and be on the fawn as soon as it hits the ground. By aug we seldom see any fawns with the does. We had one cow who had twins last spring and because they were a little runtty the coyotes killed both of them. We work coyotes pretty hard but you can't kill them all, they just move back in on you from neighboring country.

That is just the way I see it
 
The VC has had a coyote study going on for quite some time...formal study or not. Calf survival rate is roughly 15%. I understand the topic is of deer herds, just an example of what unchecked predation can do to a population.
 
".. Scientists argue that this will increase the population of coyotes rather than decrease. I dont see how its physically possible for coyotes to increase reproduction if Utah were to continue to kill 6000 coyotes a year consecutively."

Studies show that when you decrease the population, the size of the litters increase to make up the difference. Those studies were cited when Hart Mt. was having trouble up here with Antelope survival and was going hire pro's to shoot the coyotes.
 
Wapiti Bob,

I am fully aware of the theory on litter size increasing, however, if a group were to continue to shoot say 6000 coyotes a year for 4-5 years in a row, the overall population of coyotes who will be having these liters will continue to decrease. the idea is to kill enough coyotes to where the maximum litter size a coyote can have will still equal a significantly less amount than the current population. After all coyotes are like dogs and will have a decent litter on any given year. Its not like coyotes will feel pressure and start dropping 20 dogs a litter. Its not physically possible.
 
>The VC has had a coyote
>study going on for quite
>some time...formal study or not.
> Calf survival rate is
>roughly 15%. I understand
>the topic is of deer
>herds, just an example of
>what unchecked predation can do
>to a population.


Later in that study it said that predators were not the reason for the poor calf survival...

I don't know if it is predators or not but we just are loosing habitat at an alarming rate... and I don't really mean new housing projects... Just in general... We really don't have the PJ country that we used to have. Look at the Burros, they shut that thing down for 5+ years and you would expect it to be full of mulies but it just isn't and it gets pounded by predator hunters..

I think like most things we are in a crappy cycle...
 
I do beleive the drought cycle we are in has caused alot of the habitat issues. I am dead serious when I say that SENM especially is going through a coyote flourish. Maybe its because the last 10-20 years have been in a relatively buyers fur market and trapping has pretty much slowed to a halt. I dont have all the answers but I do feel responisble as a sportsman of SENM to voice what I am seeing, especially with the amount of time I spend out in the field, and I strongly feel like something needs to be done in the order of predator control. I am not really getting alot of positive feedback, I know there would be a large group of critics for a bounty type predator fund, and with "Scientific' publications portraying that this type of system would only increase the population, it will be tough to get the ball rolling. However if there are other people that are out there willing to try and work on this I am willing to do the same.

Just some food for thought. I was one year away from a wildlife and fisheries degree.
I have a Bachelors degree in science as well as a Masters degree. I have seen hundreds if not thousands of publications and have written some over a same topic as others with completely different views. A scientific publication is merely a research project. How many projects has someone seen done over the same thing with different results.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-21-13 AT 06:34PM (MST)[p]Here is my take on it...

Reduce the tags!

Yes, predators are a big problem. A mountain Lion will kill up to a deer a week. As far as the coyotes... They hammer the fawns!

But when there is a contest to kill these coyotes, people act like we have a coyote problem and not a deer problem.

We all know the NMDGF love their money!

But here is an Idea... The NMDGF should replace the rifle tags with bow and muzzy tags for a few years. It will be harder to harvest deer.

That way the NMDGF gets their $$$ and less people will kill deer, resulting in a muledeer rebound!

Going to get some Coyotes on Friday!
 
I do agree that redistribution of tags is a good idea. however Id like to add that coyotes hammer way more than fawns. Packs of coyotes will go after does, even big bucks if the situation is right (I.E. post rut). I am going to continue to push this topic, hoping that I am not standing alone.
 
I am with BHB on this. This is a war that needs to be fought on several fronts.
Predators is a huge problem. There used to be a lot of sheep country out here and the predators were hammered. Now they are only CASUALLY hunted.
Coyote contests are now on the radar. Lots of bad publicity. Still needs to be done.
I think clubs should do it and businesses could support it. A club is in a better position to tell an anti to eff off.
NMGF needs to reduce tags.

My personal opinion is that controllable habitat is the least of our problems. There is lots of good deer country out there with no deer (unit 29 & 30). Someone made a good point awhile back.
We cant make it rain, and that is 99% of habitat.
We can control predators, number of deer legally killed, poachers, and encouraging the killing of predators.

Everyone should have a cougar tag in their wallet. In most units you can kill 2 a year until quota is filled. I know they pop up when you least expect it. Be in a position to kill them.

The dog guys pass on lots of cats looking for Toms and leaving seed. I think it is up to hunters to put a hurt on cats and yotes.
 
C'mon guys!!!! Get off your lazy arses and go get some dogs on the weekend! Im already up to 12 this year and haven't really even started going out that much! I hear so much complaining on here but don't see anyone doing anything about it!

~Master the Tines~
 
The irony of the Gila is in the number of deer tags allotted per unit versus the number elk tags. Spend time glassing in any limited Gila unit and you will plenty of elk and hardly any deer. BUT, our deer biologists insist on issuing up to 10x the number of deer tags as elk tags in some of these areas, despite the fact that the deer populations at are at desperate lows. Common sense dictates a more conservative course of action, especially in this period of tremendous drought, large elk populations and high predator numbers. Interesting how New Mexico's biologists fail where our neighboring states' deer biologists are succeeding, yet no positive course of action has been taken.

The current course of deer management is clearly not working, that is undeniable. In fact, I would say that things are currently out of control and New Mexico's deer herds are nearing an unprecedented point of no return. If something does not change in the immediate future our "biologists" will be responsible for the demise of one of New Mexico's crown jewel animals. Cut tags drastically, control predators, and conserve habitat.

Peace,

Cody


http://themeateater.com/
www.streamflies.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-22-13 AT 08:00AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-21-13 AT 08:34?PM (MST)

Tine master, let's not get into name calling. As you don't know any of us anymore than I know you. Everyone needs to do there part. But your 12 coyotes isn't merely enough nor is the 35 I have already killed this season. It is evident that we need more sportsman out doing what we're doing already and maybe an incentive program would help with that.
 
I've probably have over 150 days invested in the gila over the last 10 years or so, which isn't much compared to others. In all those days i've only seen 2 bucks that would break the 180 mark, and 1 of these was in the low 90's. I am blown away at the lack of deer that new mexico has with so much awesome country. I have talked to several of the good ole boy ranchers there , now in their 80's , and the stories of big bucks were prevalent to say the least. Where did they all go? It's common for us to see less than 10 deer in 2 or 3 week period in 16, and that's really pathetic in my opinion. Sure there's some real nice bulls to look at and we've harvested some real pigs, but killing a 160 class buck is in my opinion something not easily done. I remember a rancher telling me that there used to be trout in negrito creek , and some big ones. I can't even imagine negrito flowing for long enough to support a mesquito for that matter. It must have to do with water, that's my guess. By the way both big bucks were in the jerky mountains in 16b about 7 years ago. I sat and marveled at both thinking, what are you 2 doing here, i thought there wasnt any left. Reduce the tags for sure in my opinion.
 
They have to do more then just reduce tags. They have to reduce predators also. They also have to quit rolling over to ever anti group that's against this or that. We have to band together and tell the commission that we are not stand by and watch our herds disappear all together.
 
II just emailed the game commission and I encourage you all do the same here is what I said. ( It seems New Mexico's mule deer population is at a all time low. I have not seen the population incre)ase through restricting licences. It seems since the state went on a state wide draw system the population has dropped !?? How will you insure our deer population will be around for future generation? We are failing and change must happen. Predator control must be a priority and we must stand strong against anti hunting activist. Predator hunters are conservationist. I believe we should implement a program that mirrors Utah's coyote program. Anti hunting propaganda must stop before we loose our mule deer... )
 
Just sent my email. Below is a copy

My name is Keaton Waters, I currently live in Midland, TX but was born in raised in Artesia, NM and still am an avid hunter throughout New Mexico. My reason for writing is to propose an idea for predator control. The state of Utah has implemented a bounty program for coyotes this last year and as a result have reduced the population by 6000 coyotes. I have participated in over 6 mule deer hunts in the last two years, from Muzzloader to bow in Southeast NM and I can honestly say the coyotes are as heavily populated as I have ever seen them. The last two years I have been involved in a situation where deer were wounded right before dark, and had to be retrieved the next morning. Both mule deer had to battle multiple coyotes, one had the back flank eaten, the other was healthy enough to fight them off and we were able to get him out completely intact the next morning. I can sit and glass a pasture with my spotting scope in the morning and see more coyotes than mule deer. Significantly reducing the amount of coyotes is vital to the reestablishment of the mule deer population. One example where predator control has proven to be very successful is Nevada?s Game Unit 14. In just under 9 years ( 2004- 2012), over 1100 coyotes and 45 Mountain lions were taken from this small game unit, which in turn saw a 65% mule deer population increase while the offsetting game units actually took a decline. Attached is the article written by Dr. Gerald A. lent, covering the specifics of that Nevada Predator Project. I believe this will help more than hiring government trappers because the size and vastness of New Mexico. A bounty program adds a lot of incentive for more sportsman to get out and do some predator hunting, I can't speak for the rest of the state but one thing is for sure, Southeast New Mexico is enduring a coyote boom.

My proposal is to implement a similar bounty program for coyotes as Utah has done this last year.

1) Allocate capital for a predator control fund
2) Allow hunters to turn in proof of coyote Kill ( Jaw, scalp etc) in exchange for a set bounty per coyote
3) Have these turn in stations available at every district office or with any game warden.
4) Continue this project for 5 years


I would like to get some feedback from this proposal. If there are any questions please feel free to call me or email


Sincerely,

Keaton Waters

(432)-413-9280
 
Like most problems there is usually more than one cause.

Drought has got to be the biggest factor for mule deer in NM. Every land mammal needs fresh water. I notice most deer will live within 1 mile of a reliable water source. Rain leads to deep grass which leads to greater fawn survival. Rain leads to plant growth. Plant growth leads to healthier deer. Healthy deer are able to breed. This past year cattle ranches and bison operations saw their highest numbers ever of dry cattle and bison. Why? Because the females were not in good enough shape to carry. Although the second half of 2013 was excellent for rain it won't have a positive effect on populate growth for a few years. Lets all hope that the rain continues.

There was a study done by NMSU in Colfax county, its probably been 10 years since publication. The year of 2002 a severe drought year not one fawn in their study survived. Not a single one. No recruitment, no bucks, no expanding deer herds, nothing for the predators both human and non human. The biggest factor listed in this study for fawn mortality was drought.

Next is management. The game department is not without fault. We can all see the success the Apaches have had by actively managing for mule deer. They are reaping the rewards of elk and predator population control. The NM game and fish have a difficult task at hand in trying to provide both quality and quantity. No doubt they try to give opportunity and issue a crap load of tags in certain units. If this wasn't done they would hear about the lack of opportunity. Its a difficult position to be in. I do think the game department can respond quicker to drought conditions and cut tags. I also think the game department can communicate the public and try to market all the big game hunting available to New Mexicans, not just deer.

Hunter responsibility. What I have noticed in reading the New Mexico page on MM is numerous NM hunters all happy posing with a dead 2.5 or 3.5 year old buck that in some cases won't score 100 Boone and Crockett points. New Mexico is a great state for hunting, yes the deer are down so concentrate on some of the other big game and give the deer a break. Set personal goals and stick to them. If you don't see a 150 class buck you don't have to kill any buck you see. Deer meat isn't nearly as good as cow elk meat. If you are meat hunting try to get a cow elk tag. What a great state that a person can hunt other species like Ibex, oryx, havalina, wild pigs, coyotes, lions, bears, elk, turkey, sheep, etc. etc. etc. probably leaving some off. If you are so concerned go kill something else in 2014 and give the deer a break.

Predators. I think some of this can probably fall under hunter responsibility. Again if a person is so concerned put in for a bear or lion tag. I know some go out and kill yotes on the weekend, good for those hunters, more of that should continue. You cannot expect the game department to be responsible for choosing one species over another or doing all the predator control. Most of those biologist get a kick out of seeing a mountain lion just as much as they do seeing a great buck. That's just how it is, so pick up your call head out and fire away. I don't believe NM has a season on coyotes so you can hunt year round if you want.

Bottom line is hopefully the weather pattern continues to be favorable for New Mexico and the deer herds start responding. Some on this board need to exersize a little restraint and not blast every milk sucker you see just to say I filled my tag this year. Leave a few bucks to breed.

BTW I am not a biologist, it is just an observation I have had. I know it can be frustrating not even seeing a legal buck during hunting season. Hopefully better days are ahead for NM mule deer herds.
 
I dont diagree with you about the drought affecting the deer herd severly, however there is nothing we can do as sportsman to prevent or help that cause. Like you said, in drought it is hard on every species including coyotes, which in turn make it even more difficult on the deer because a coyotes food source becomes more and more restricted. It would be impossible for the game and fish to do all the leg work in predator control. Thats why I beleive a bounty program would work so well. With this economy ( excluding SENM and West Texas) for alot of sportsman its hard to justify to spend the money to go out calling all weekend. At least with this incentive, people can get there money back for their efforts.
 
Bloodhoundbrother,

I like the bounty system idea, although it'll never fly in NM. You're talking about a state that just banned organized coyote calling contests because of all the sensitive/nieve soles out there. They'll definitely never allow a harvest system that includes a payout for knocking down dogs. It's ridiculous...but a fact. The uproar would be overwhelming over it. People here in cruces around the Organs consider them pets or "pretty wildlife" instead of the pests they are.

That being said, I'm not so sure coyotes are the only major factor in this state. It's well know that the average lion will kill a deer every 14 days (on average...checked several sites prior to making that statement). I'd be willing to bet that's significantly more than a coyote and NM has low limits for lion harvest. My thought, double or triple the lion harvest allotments statewide, implement your said bounty system, completely halt deer hunting for 3-5 years in all units including private land (especially private land), and when deer seasons are re-opened, substantially cut the number of tags issued (say by 75%) and force private land owners to adhere to the same draw system as public. The private land pool could be seperate, but all other regulations should apply as well. Afterall...private land owners don't own the deer, nor will they ever. I'm in no way trying to restrict land owners from enjoying the benefits of owning property, but game doesn't belong to them and as such they need to have the same rules/regs as the rest of us. Yes, you lose money and hunting opportunites, but if/when a tag is drawn, perhaps you'll have chances at numbers of deer...and trophies at that.
Unit 34 and the SE portion of the state have another predator hurting deer pops...feral hogs. It's documented they'll eat fawns and obviously destroy habitat. Allow night hunting and baiting for these pests and do the deer another favor.

Also, NM resident deer tags run $42 which is significantly cheaper than any other tag save a lion or bear OTC license. Javelina Licenses are substantially more expensive which makes no sense in my mind. Cut the tag allotment but double the deer tag fee to help make up revenue. It's common sense...and a simple math equation.

To summarize, there are multiple issues that need to be corrected before this deer herd will ever respond. Attempting to correct one or the other won't cut it. If we ever want to see a thriving deer herd again (which I doubt I'll see in my lifetime), G&F, New Mexico's sportsman and lawmakers all need to come together and address ALL issues. I'd like to be optimistic and think it'll happen, but again, it's a long shot in a state that banned organized predator hunts, thinks that Outfitters should be subsized by the state (10% mandatory tag allottment...(capitalism anyone???)) and enjoys revenue over quality management. The only good thing I've seen in quite some time was the resignation of the guy who put some of this into effect. Good riddance Jim Lane. Hopefully we get someone at G&F with a wildlife background that understands the issues our state is facing. The deer need a reprieve and a chance to re-establish, and the rest of our populations, especially are coveted elk herd and awesome exotics (ibex, oryx, and barbary) need protection from being slaughtered which has been the trend over the past few years. One can only hope....
 
other species like Ibex, oryx, havalina, wild pigs, coyotes, lions, bears, elk, turkey, desert bighorn sheep, rocky mountain bighorn, etc. etc. etc.

Barbary, antelope, coues deer, whitail deer, dove, quail, grouse, bison, wild horse, coatimundi, bob cat, Jaguar, rabbit, beaver, squirrel, wild dogs, hmmm what else I know I'm missing a few more, focus on these animals instead. Heck I've even heard of tahr in NM.

So that is 28 other species, I'm positive there are more. Shoot those for a year or two.
 
Some great responses.

The only thing I would like to reiterate is that there are problems.

One thing will not fix the problem.

Things that we have control over.
Predators
Over hunting

Sportsman01 makes some great points. $42 for a deer tag is way to low. Increase the price for deer, and lower the price for Cougar and bear.

Quotas are not being hit on cats, we need to change that.
 
I know some of the G&F population estimates include using a rolling average over a 5 year period. Not sure if this is still the case but it was a method used in the past. If the G&F is still doing this and basing their numbers partially on what they were 5 years ago and issuing tags based on this information is in my opinion a bad way to base tag quotas. I think 2009 was a decent year for rain but every year since with the exception of the past 6 months has been in drought. Again the game department need to act quicker in drought conditions and cut tags.. To offset the lost revenue I think the tag price could be increased some. Most would be willing to pay $50 - 60. There tag allotment should be based on population counts in the current year not a rolling average.
 
I do strongly agree with yalls opinions on the tag prices.. Javelina is the same cost as an Antelope! I personally dont get that one bit. especially when the boardering state recognizes them as a varmit.
 
here is the most recent reply I have recieved from one of our game commissioners.

"I think you are right regarding predators and this year we have liberalized the season on lions and bears. We have no authority over coyotes which means that there is no closed season or bag limits. We would have a real problem with bounties in that the department has limited funding for those activities.
Thank you for your concern and I assure you that we are trying to address the problem you mention."
 
Ok here goes a far fetched idea.

First of all it seems as though everyone is on the same page that something needs to be done to help our Mule deer herds.

What can we do to Help?

Kill coyotes is on everyones list but we need a bounty. Shouldn't doing our part in predator control be bounty enough.

How about everyone banning together and either not apply for a unit that everyone knows is in trouble or everyone apply draw and eat the tag. Wouldn't this be a work around the Game and Fish.

Maybe.
 
Great ideas so far!
I'm personally going to try to get out to snipe some coyotes where it seems there are the most deer (not many areas)

Seems to me on my deer hunt this year there were a lot of coyotes by where all the deer were (makes sense)

Didn't see that many fawns. Somewhere on this or last thread I read the survival rate of fawns is 15%. Not sure if that stat is accurate but it seems right.

I know that every time I'm out hunting whatever animal, I try to kill every coyote I see. It helps but my opinion that's just not good enough.

I believe that it is our duty as sportsmen to go out of our way to preserve our resources (mule deer) if we want them to survive so that the next generation can enjoy going mule deer hunting.

We can write as many e-mails as we want to the game and fish but who knows how far that will get us. I'm not discouraging any of you to do that because every little bit helps but I think it is our responsibility as sportsmen to help other than typing on a keyboard.

Just my 2 cents

I'm glad this topic was brought up. Long overdue.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-27-13 AT 08:07AM (MST)[p]Some good ideas being talked about here.
Cut tags.
Close some units for couple years.
Increase tag fees to offset closures.
Increase predator quotas.

After seeing more calf elk than ever this spring,and many twins, and not seeing very many fawns of deer or antelope,something is out of wack.

I know the new deer Biologist for the state and will be talking to him more about these ideas.
I'm trying to improve the habitat for deer too here on my ranch,as I do for elk and antelope.

I will probably pass on a deer tag this next year after several years of only seeing dinks during hunts,and few decent bucks the rest of the year.
I call in every potential poaching suspect.
Increase the fines for poaching,and up trophy poaching to 4th deg. felony.
Get rid of scofflaw judges who dismiss cases daily....
Contact NMG&F and let them hear our voices,every one of them. Not just the Dept. heads and commissioners. They will have to respond ,just like they respond to the antis.
 
I'm doing my part. Killed three coyotes in the southern parts of the Organ mountains this morning.
1867image.jpg
 
Nice coyote. Good ideas so far.

Here are a few things in my thoughts that are good ideas. Just some ideas and food for thought.

If we are trying to go with the point restriction then pick 3-4 units in the 4 quadrants of the state and do a antler point restriction. Then make no change for 3 -4 years. Then collect the data and hunter rating survey rankings and see if it improved. Then apply state wide after that.

Reduce the deer tag numbers in many units and all weapons. We should go off current harvest data to support this. i believe any unit with an average under 30% to 35% across the board harvest should get reduced tags the following year. As well as the trend of all units and hunts.

To assist with low game warden numbers and high poaching! Is to get hunters who turn in poachers into a special draw for a high prized animal EX: ibex , 2B deer, oryx, Ibex, 16D elk- This is a huge incentive, plus a cheap way of having many eyes to assist the game wardens in the field.

The predator problem in the state that is huge. Is to have a predator harvest promotion going on. You harvest a coyote= 1 lottery ticket in a drawing, bobcat 3 lottery tickets in a drawing, mountain lion 10 lottery tickets in a drawing for a special lottery draw for a high prized animal EX: ibex , 2C deer, oryx, 16D elk. You have the whole season to harvest and check in at the game and fish office or a warden. May try and see one season to see if it improves the harvest. Both calling and trapping are approved method for the lottery draw. Kind of like a bounty but instead of getting money you have a opportunity to hunt a primo tag. Example in Utah 6000 coyotes @ $50 bounty = $300,000. Game and fish could just dedicate 3-5 permits and save money that way.

I think to stay the same or increase the deer tag price 10 bucks, but no more. Harder for families to get out to hunt together any more. Especially with a couple kids and hunting multiple game animals.

Liked the idea of a land owner deer tag and a landowner elk tag @ a $25 tax or $50. Each being paid by the hunter who is buying the tag. Take the money and put into the below:
1. Could pay for the head count flights surveys- this will improve the herd by having better head count. Then adjust tags according to counts.
2. Or take the funds and then use that to pay the landowners for problems caused by the wildlife?
3. Or use the money and get some more wardens.

Implement a program that you can harvest a cougar with your deer or elk tag. Then your deer or elk tag would be void. Unless you purchase a separate cougar tag, then can harvest both.

Maybe change the youth deer hunt to only one weekend, that is 7 days long. The deer maybe getting hunted too hard for too long? Now don't get me wrong, I think that nm offers the best youth hunts available. I'm not saying get rid of them. I can't wait to take my girls out in a few year hunting. I just don't think the deer get a break really from sept. 1- jan. 15

Look to reduce the archery jan hunts- may cause problem with animals in the winter/ breeding season. Probably chased around so much they are having a harder time making it through? Not sure never bow hunted in January, don't beat me up just a thought. what do you guys think?

Sorry for the long winded post, just some things i have been things about for a while. Thanks to all
 
Great ideas countryboy, especially the reward for turing in poachers, if convicted you get a great tag. Awesome idea. Also like the idea of cutting tags based on harvest. Totally agree with this. If Colorado can run >45% as a state why can't NM. I realize the habitat and thus population is different but success for those in the field shouldn't be that much different, just less tags based on less population. Numerous good ideas.

This guy should be on the game commission.

The only one I don't see happening is the bounty on coyotes. I think this game dept stretched thin as it is, shoe string budget, not enough wardens, but the others all seem reasonable to me.

They should probably also shut down troubled units. If hunter success is 20% or less this really says something. I believe another poster said he saw 2 does during his entire hunt in unit 20. That is just pathetic. Maybe a unit like that needs a break.

I think most would understand if their unit was shut down for one year as the population needs to rebound following a severe drought. I can't imagine any reasonable sportsman making a big deal about this, again that person can focus on a different species.
 
Thanks.

I figured when they had the ibex F/IM slaughter and in return for killing the 2. They would put you in for a special Trophy Ibex hunt drawing. That they could do the same thing on a predator population control bounty. Enter your name in a special drawing for 1 lottery ticket = 1 coyote, 5 or 10 tickets for 1 lion. maybe 2 or 3 for a bobcat. Just take in a hide, pair of ears or carcass to a field officer or game and fish office. Then you would be entered into a trophy tag of some sort.
 
So obviously Colorado has much more Mule Deer than we do... That being said does anyone know if they have these measures in place to secure the success numbers of muley's?


Also, I have heard that Colorado vaires their deer tag allocations based on numbers. Rough winters or low deer tags = lower tags in the upcoming years! Any truth to this? Either way this is not a bad thought...

Why do we have "Primative Weapong Units" like unit 13 but stead have 400 riffle hunters for DEER ONLY in that unit. Elk remain PRIMATIVE ONLY... And go figure the elk numbers are much higher there than years back!

I am an in favor of better rewards toward reporting poachers! As a person that has been involved with busting a poacher it is quite a task and cost me an entire day and gas to get the person! Well worth it, yes!! Absolutely but fact is not everyone would have the time to do so...

It is sad I had to wait over 3 hours and meet the game warden nearly 60 miles away and than drive another 50 to take him to the spot.


I hope to God that we can come up with something. We have RMEF everything and huge supporters but the MDF is almost a foreign and unknown group here especially in comparison to elk talks.

Just some of my thoughts.
 
Ocho, you will see Colorado make adjustments every year to each unit depending on population count in that year. Also the way the population survey is conducted has changed throughout the years. They actually count the animals now. Kinda interesting when this was done the population in colorado had to be adjusted downward by about 30%. I still think some game departments still count population in an antiquated fashion.
 
For those of us who espouse Colorado as 'The Way' to manage Mule Deer, it's important to understand that Colorado's Mule Deer population has dropped by 50 percent from it's highs in the 60's, while during that same time elk numbers have skyrocketed. The following link although a bit old ('99), is still relevant and reflective today. Give it a read. They have done most everything talked about in this thread, from predator studies to huge tag cuts, and their herds are still diminishing or at best holding their own.

Present day Mule Deer management is a difficult task at best, with a multitude of considerations to address.

http://warnercnr.colostate.edu/~gwhite/mdreport.pdf


www.unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
I am an almost exclusive unit 27 hunter for mule deer. In that unit, I believe it was the 2010 season that game and fish uped the # of tags in this "quality" unit by more than twice the number of 2009 and earlier. I have seen the numbers of deer decrease very rapidly since that increase in tags. There are also plenty of predators in that unit, which I feel is very hard on the numbers of mule deer. In my opinion guys if we love our mule deer and want to see them gain ground instead of loose ground, WE need to do more for them. Taking on the predators is a huge step in the right direction. What to do with the game and fish who think every license penny from all of us hunters should be spent on gila trout, spike dance minnows and such ! That's a whole different situation that I don't know how to deal with. But I definatly aqgree with all of you that we need to do something, anything will help.
 
>Bloodhoundbrother,
>
>I like the bounty system idea,
>although it'll never fly in
>NM. You're talking about a
>state that just banned organized
>coyote calling contests because of
>all the sensitive/nieve soles out
>there. They'll definitely never allow
>a harvest system that includes
>a payout for knocking down
>dogs. It's ridiculous...but a fact.
>The uproar would be overwhelming
>over it. People here in
>cruces around the Organs consider
>them pets or "pretty wildlife"
>instead of the pests they
>are.
>
>That being said, I'm not so
>sure coyotes are the only
>major factor in this state.
>It's well know that the
>average lion will kill a
>deer every 14 days (on
>average...checked several sites prior to
>making that statement). I'd be
>willing to bet that's significantly
>more than a coyote and
>NM has low limits for
>lion harvest. My thought, double
>or triple the lion harvest
>allotments statewide, implement your said
>bounty system, completely halt deer
>hunting for 3-5 years in
>all units including private land
>(especially private land), and when
>deer seasons are re-opened, substantially
>cut the number of tags
>issued (say by 75%) and
>force private land owners to
>adhere to the same draw
>system as public. The
>private land pool could be
>seperate, but all other regulations
>should apply as well. Afterall...private
>land owners don't own the
>deer, nor will they ever.
>I'm in no way trying
>to restrict land owners from
>enjoying the benefits of owning
>property, but game doesn't belong
>to them and as such
>they need to have the
>same rules/regs as the rest
>of us. Yes, you lose
>money and hunting opportunites, but
>if/when a tag is drawn,
>perhaps you'll have chances at
>numbers of deer...and trophies at
>that.
>Unit 34 and the SE portion
>of the state have another
>predator hurting deer pops...feral hogs.
>It's documented they'll eat fawns
>and obviously destroy habitat. Allow
>night hunting and baiting for
>these pests and do the
>deer another favor.
>
>Also, NM resident deer tags run
>$42 which is significantly cheaper
>than any other tag save
>a lion or bear OTC
>license. Javelina Licenses are substantially
>more expensive which makes no
>sense in my mind. Cut
>the tag allotment but double
>the deer tag fee to
>help make up revenue. It's
>common sense...and a simple math
>equation.
>
>To summarize, there are multiple issues
>that need to be corrected
>before this deer herd will
>ever respond. Attempting to correct
>one or the other won't
>cut it. If we ever
>want to see a thriving
>deer herd again (which I
>doubt I'll see in my
>lifetime), G&F, New Mexico's sportsman
>and lawmakers all need to
>come together and address ALL
>issues. I'd like to be
>optimistic and think it'll happen,
>but again, it's a long
>shot in a state that
>banned organized predator hunts, thinks
>that Outfitters should be subsized
>by the state (10% mandatory
>tag allottment...(capitalism anyone???)) and enjoys
>revenue over quality management. The
>only good thing I've seen
>in quite some time was
>the resignation of the guy
>who put some of this
>into effect. Good riddance Jim
>Lane. Hopefully we get someone
>at G&F with a wildlife
>background that understands the issues
>our state is facing. The
>deer need a reprieve and
>a chance to re-establish, and
>the rest of our populations,
>especially are coveted elk herd
>and awesome exotics (ibex, oryx,
>and barbary) need protection from
>being slaughtered which has been
>the trend over the past
>few years. One can only
>hope....

Just want to clarify that Coyote calling contest are not banned in the state of New Mexico. Larrys gun shop held one last weekend in Roswell, and there is one out of carlsbad this weekend..

Cheers,

BHB
 
Public comment period for G&F Commission is now open,got notice from NMWF. Time to make the case for changes. Anyone know a commissioner?
It does look like the same regs/quota for this year,and way too many tags still....
 

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