Don't know if anyone has received this survey, but the G & F sent a detailed random survey asking whether I would support a change in the current preference point system allocation for moose and sheep from 75% of the tags for max points holders to 50% with the other 50% going to random draw. I filled this portion out saying I would strongly support such a move. Besides the fill in the blank responses, I also wrote in the other portion that I would strongly support the WY legislature reducing the the non resident quota from 20% for moose and 25% for sheep to a flat 10%. If anyone recalls from a few decades ago or so, the WY Outfitters Ass's-ociation were the ones who got these numbers increased. Lastly, they inquired about a waiting period for limited quote deer, elk and antelope for resident hunters with a multiple of options. Since the legislature won't try to create some type of fair pref point system, I put that I would strongly support waiting periods for hard to draw deer and elk area's. Irregardless of your position, I would ask everyone who receives a survey to send it in. And if you support the decreased allocation percentages on nonresident sheep and moose, make sure to add some comments...
G&F Preference Points Survey
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losthuntr
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I've yet to receive the survey, but I hope that I do I wrote a lengthy opionionated letter when I received my last deer survey from the WYG&FD and havn't received another survey since.
If they reduce the nonresident quota to 10%, they should get rid of the guides in the wilderness for nonresidents rule too. 10% is standard, but wouls only leave a few nonresident tags available to those wanting to hire an outfitter. It would make all the $$$ nonresidents have invested in sheep points virtually worthless to those not at/near the top.
I'm a nonresident at -1 so those changes would hurt me...
That being said...I think preference points systems are unfair for hunts that don't turn over in reasonable time periods...and 10% is sort of standard.
I'm a nonresident at -1 so those changes would hurt me...
That being said...I think preference points systems are unfair for hunts that don't turn over in reasonable time periods...and 10% is sort of standard.
ICMDEER
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I hadn't heard of the surveyand you can be confident G&F won't ask me a thing. We really need preference points for deer, elk and antelope for residents. I have not drawn a quality antelope license since 1991 and 1999 for elk. But I did see that one of the G&F employees again drew the Snowies moose license. Amazing how that happens with inordinate frequency in the Wyoming system.
They also need to let an outside entity run the draw so it is fair and there's no bias in the draw.
They also need to let an outside entity run the draw so it is fair and there's no bias in the draw.
Twoshooter
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I just drew my moose tag for Wyoming. Last year I would have liked it to stay at 75-25. Now I am all for 50-50. Seems like anyone that is invested and near the top will vote for 75-25 and everyone else likes the 50-50. I too droped out of sheep when I realized the point system would never help me. I have not recieved a survey.
The survey dealt with two issues: Going 50/50 on moose & sheep as noted and a waiting period for elk, deer and antelope probably because the legislature will never create a resident pref point system. I assume you could write a letter if you don't get a survey. The return envelope was addressed to WY G&F, Human Dimensions Coordinator, 5400 Bishop Blvd., Cheyenne, WY 82006.
BuzzH
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LAST EDITED ON May-16-10 AT 10:20PM (MST)[p]A couple points, from a Resident of Wyoming.
I'm against a preference point system for elk, deer, and antelope for residents, always will be. I think a waiting period is much better for any tag that has draw odds less than 25%.
I'm also against the 50/50 split for moose and sheep preference. It wont change that much for most, in particular the hard to draw moose areas and sheep. Changing draw odds from 2% to 4% is not a big deal, its really not. The odds are still stacked way against you either way.
More importantly, I think the reason this is getting attention is that the guys that drew in the preference draw early on, have waited 5 years, are now realizing they're screwed on ever drawing again in a reasonable amount of time. Yeah, well, too bad...jump to the end of the line and wait your turn, take your chance in the 25% random draw like the rest of us have been doing for the last 15 years. Its ridiculous and unfair to change the drawing structure after 15 years of living with it as it currently is. The only people that will really gain anything are those that have already drawn, or the people with very few points. The rest will continue to suffer as more tags are taken from the preference pool, drastically slowing the clearing of max and near max point holders.
Its a joke.
Secondly as to reducing the NR quota to 10%, also extremely unfair to those that have bought 12-15 years worth of points. The number of NR's clearing the max and near max pools will just slow more and more. The top units will be unreachable by even those with max points.
Secondly, this will financially hit the G&F. As a resident, for selfish reasons, I'd like to have those extra 15% of the tags go to the residents to increase my odds of drawing. But, at the end of the day, its just not right, I dont care what neighboring states do, Wyoming doesnt have to treat NR's the same as MT or ID. Many NR's starting applying under the assumption that 20-25% of the tags were available to them, its not fair or correct to change the system after 15 years. Its making their 15 points worthless. Plus, the WYG&F would lose a significant amount of funding from taking 15% of the NR tags and moving them to resident tags. If this passes, I would increase the price of every resident moose and sheep tag to cover the lost revenue due to the switch. If residents want to be selfish with the tags, they should pay the difference. Our G&F cannot operate with less revenue and any decision like this that cuts into G&F funding should have to be compensated via an increase in RESIDENT fees. I'm tired of NR's paying the bulk of the bills, its time for the residents to open their wallets and quit being cheap.
What the residents are wanting is more tags but also want the NR's to pay a majority of the bills. Well, I, for one think that logic is crap. If Residents want to start reducing NR tag quotas, they should expect to pay more for the resident tags.
If this passes, I would like to apologize on behalf of Wyoming's Residents hunters, and I will be drafting letters and sending them to all the commissioners and the G&F to get this stopped. I appreciate the dedication displayed by NR's both in the amount of money they've invested in preference points, and by the higher tag fees they pay for the right to hunt here in WY. The least I can do, as a resident is to show my appreciation by trying to keep things fair and force the G&F to live up to the original contract they have with the NR's who've been so loyal all these years.
I'm sure I will catch a load of crap from other Residents, but I dont care. I dislike how the various states mistreat NR's when its NR's that fund a majority of the G&F.
This just isnt right, and I hope this joke of a plan is killed. Selfishness never ceases to amaze me...and this is a CLASSIC case.
I'm against a preference point system for elk, deer, and antelope for residents, always will be. I think a waiting period is much better for any tag that has draw odds less than 25%.
I'm also against the 50/50 split for moose and sheep preference. It wont change that much for most, in particular the hard to draw moose areas and sheep. Changing draw odds from 2% to 4% is not a big deal, its really not. The odds are still stacked way against you either way.
More importantly, I think the reason this is getting attention is that the guys that drew in the preference draw early on, have waited 5 years, are now realizing they're screwed on ever drawing again in a reasonable amount of time. Yeah, well, too bad...jump to the end of the line and wait your turn, take your chance in the 25% random draw like the rest of us have been doing for the last 15 years. Its ridiculous and unfair to change the drawing structure after 15 years of living with it as it currently is. The only people that will really gain anything are those that have already drawn, or the people with very few points. The rest will continue to suffer as more tags are taken from the preference pool, drastically slowing the clearing of max and near max point holders.
Its a joke.
Secondly as to reducing the NR quota to 10%, also extremely unfair to those that have bought 12-15 years worth of points. The number of NR's clearing the max and near max pools will just slow more and more. The top units will be unreachable by even those with max points.
Secondly, this will financially hit the G&F. As a resident, for selfish reasons, I'd like to have those extra 15% of the tags go to the residents to increase my odds of drawing. But, at the end of the day, its just not right, I dont care what neighboring states do, Wyoming doesnt have to treat NR's the same as MT or ID. Many NR's starting applying under the assumption that 20-25% of the tags were available to them, its not fair or correct to change the system after 15 years. Its making their 15 points worthless. Plus, the WYG&F would lose a significant amount of funding from taking 15% of the NR tags and moving them to resident tags. If this passes, I would increase the price of every resident moose and sheep tag to cover the lost revenue due to the switch. If residents want to be selfish with the tags, they should pay the difference. Our G&F cannot operate with less revenue and any decision like this that cuts into G&F funding should have to be compensated via an increase in RESIDENT fees. I'm tired of NR's paying the bulk of the bills, its time for the residents to open their wallets and quit being cheap.
What the residents are wanting is more tags but also want the NR's to pay a majority of the bills. Well, I, for one think that logic is crap. If Residents want to start reducing NR tag quotas, they should expect to pay more for the resident tags.
If this passes, I would like to apologize on behalf of Wyoming's Residents hunters, and I will be drafting letters and sending them to all the commissioners and the G&F to get this stopped. I appreciate the dedication displayed by NR's both in the amount of money they've invested in preference points, and by the higher tag fees they pay for the right to hunt here in WY. The least I can do, as a resident is to show my appreciation by trying to keep things fair and force the G&F to live up to the original contract they have with the NR's who've been so loyal all these years.
I'm sure I will catch a load of crap from other Residents, but I dont care. I dislike how the various states mistreat NR's when its NR's that fund a majority of the G&F.
This just isnt right, and I hope this joke of a plan is killed. Selfishness never ceases to amaze me...and this is a CLASSIC case.
I think we need a multiple approach to helping fairly distribute resident tags. There is only two ways to improve odds and that is to increase opportunity, or limit the amount of people putting in for the draw. Preference points do nothing to increase draw odds.
1. Rank tags as follows: Sheep, Moose, Goats, Elk, Deer, Antelope. If you draw a sheep tag your names out of the hat for the rest of the draws. If you draw a elk tag your name is out of the hat for deer or antelope. Leftover tags if any would be inititated through a second draw or first come basis. This would not prevent you from purchasing a general deer or elk tag for any general area
2. A two year waiting period for Type 1 deer and elk tags that have under 50% draw odds. This would not prevent you from buying general liesences for either species.
3. Cap party applications at 2 hunters per application. This spreads the permits throughout the community a little more and keeps one family from drawing 6 coveted elk or deer tags.
4. More opportunity for limited quota tags. Split archery elk hunts off from rifle hunts to allow more hunters a chance at a quality hunt. Same with deer, and antelope. Have some LE opportunites that are labeled premium that allow you to hunt both seasons if you choose to put in for the permit that would most surely accompany way worse odds.
5. Create a muzzleloader only season for some late season deer hunts in general season areas. My idea would be to use the nonresident regions(keep these tag numbers small, like under 5-10 per unit as not affect quality) Think how many people would put in for a chance to hunt region G from the 15th to the 31st of October. This would take a bunch of pressure off the traditional LE units.
The above ideas would create more LE tags, and limit the amount of people with their name in the hat. As I said earlier the only true way to increase draw odds. The truth is we have this discussion every year, normally right after the le draw for deer and antelope and we all have way different ideas. Until we can get on the same page we'll continue to do nothing and keep having crappy odds and having the same discussion every year.
1. Rank tags as follows: Sheep, Moose, Goats, Elk, Deer, Antelope. If you draw a sheep tag your names out of the hat for the rest of the draws. If you draw a elk tag your name is out of the hat for deer or antelope. Leftover tags if any would be inititated through a second draw or first come basis. This would not prevent you from purchasing a general deer or elk tag for any general area
2. A two year waiting period for Type 1 deer and elk tags that have under 50% draw odds. This would not prevent you from buying general liesences for either species.
3. Cap party applications at 2 hunters per application. This spreads the permits throughout the community a little more and keeps one family from drawing 6 coveted elk or deer tags.
4. More opportunity for limited quota tags. Split archery elk hunts off from rifle hunts to allow more hunters a chance at a quality hunt. Same with deer, and antelope. Have some LE opportunites that are labeled premium that allow you to hunt both seasons if you choose to put in for the permit that would most surely accompany way worse odds.
5. Create a muzzleloader only season for some late season deer hunts in general season areas. My idea would be to use the nonresident regions(keep these tag numbers small, like under 5-10 per unit as not affect quality) Think how many people would put in for a chance to hunt region G from the 15th to the 31st of October. This would take a bunch of pressure off the traditional LE units.
The above ideas would create more LE tags, and limit the amount of people with their name in the hat. As I said earlier the only true way to increase draw odds. The truth is we have this discussion every year, normally right after the le draw for deer and antelope and we all have way different ideas. Until we can get on the same page we'll continue to do nothing and keep having crappy odds and having the same discussion every year.
I would support both the 50/50 split for moose, and sheep. Mostly for the youth to have a better chance of drawing before their 50.
I would also support limiting the non resident applications to 10%. I put in for every other western state and most of those states have the tag allocation of well under 10%. Why should non-residents from those states get a higher percentage of our tags then they give out. I would like to see a interstate agreement that non-resident are guarenteed 10%. No more, no less. I would also raise the prices for resident sheep, moose, type 1 tags to make up for the money lost from the smaller non resident quotas.
I would also support limiting the non resident applications to 10%. I put in for every other western state and most of those states have the tag allocation of well under 10%. Why should non-residents from those states get a higher percentage of our tags then they give out. I would like to see a interstate agreement that non-resident are guarenteed 10%. No more, no less. I would also raise the prices for resident sheep, moose, type 1 tags to make up for the money lost from the smaller non resident quotas.
Obviously the 50:50 option for sheep and moose mentioned above will benefit anyone with fewer than max pts and guys with close to max pts will get shafted with having to wait more years for tags.
I actually pulled my son out of the Wyo moose draw a few years ago even though he had 5 pref pts. More wolves/bears....fewer moose....fewer moose tags...high cost to apply...it didn't make sense so I pulled the plug. It's pretty sad when young hunters have virtually 0 chance of drawing Wyo sheep and moose tags in their lifetime! I think the 50:50 split is a great compromise to give young or new hunters the chance to draw a once in a lifetime tag.
BuzzH,
I appreciate your honesty in regard to nonres quotas!...especially coming from a Wyo resident! I am from neighboring Colo where nonres allocation for most of the limited deer, elk, and antelope limited tags are 40% nonres and 60% res. We also have unlimited elk units where nonres can hunt every year! Although I feel shafted with 40% of these tags going to nonres. I know Colos wildlife and small towns thrive due to the impact nonres provide to the economy.
The only item on your agenda you may want to re-consider is pref pts for Wyo residents for deer, elk, and antelope. I was a Wyo resident for 30 years and the past 20 years a nonres. I only drew 1 limited elk tag in all those years as a Wyo resident and a nonres before they started pref pts. Once Wyo started pref pts for nonres I have drawn 2 elk tags plus 2 deer tags the past 4 years. I expect to draw my 3rd elk and deer tags in the next couple years thanks to the pref pt system. My Wyo res buddy has applied for similar units and has drawn 0 and his draw odds continue to take a nose dive every year.
I can assure you, it isn't going to get any easier to draw Wyo resident deer, elk, and antelope tags without some sort of a pref/bonus pt system for res. Obviously it is going to get tougher and tougher to draw tags as a Wyo res as the state's population continues to grow! More people...more applicants....worse draw odds!
I don't believe the answer is to lower nonres tag numbers and decrease funding to the WG&F and I can't see this happening. A pref pt system would require anyone that drew a tag to step back to the end of the line and give others in front of them a chance to draw a tag. Obviously with the current system some guys draw back to back tags while others may wait years to draw 1 tag.
Most Wyo residents haven't been in favor of a pref pt system because they have seen how horrible this system has worked for sheep and moose. It is pretty obviously the pref pt system doesn't work very well for any species where there are thousands of applicants vying for a handfull of tags!
If you think about it the turnover of tags for deer, elk, and antelope are very quick due to the generous number of tags offered for these species compared to sheep and moose. Obviously the toughest deer and elk units in the state may take several years to draw w/a pref pt system but anyone that draws a tag has to go to the end of the line....so your odds will improve if you continue to apply...not so with the current no pref pt res system. There are also lots of options/units for Wyo res to draw deer, elk, and antelope tags every year if you don't apply for the toughest draw areas.
I am so grateful Wyo offers pref pts to nonres! If I was a Wyo res I would be complaining and trying my best to get some sort of pref/bonus pt system for deer, elk, and antelope! Your odds for drawing great limited deer, elk, and antelope units every year or 2 will increase dramatically with such a system..unlike the current moose and sheep!
I actually pulled my son out of the Wyo moose draw a few years ago even though he had 5 pref pts. More wolves/bears....fewer moose....fewer moose tags...high cost to apply...it didn't make sense so I pulled the plug. It's pretty sad when young hunters have virtually 0 chance of drawing Wyo sheep and moose tags in their lifetime! I think the 50:50 split is a great compromise to give young or new hunters the chance to draw a once in a lifetime tag.
BuzzH,
I appreciate your honesty in regard to nonres quotas!...especially coming from a Wyo resident! I am from neighboring Colo where nonres allocation for most of the limited deer, elk, and antelope limited tags are 40% nonres and 60% res. We also have unlimited elk units where nonres can hunt every year! Although I feel shafted with 40% of these tags going to nonres. I know Colos wildlife and small towns thrive due to the impact nonres provide to the economy.
The only item on your agenda you may want to re-consider is pref pts for Wyo residents for deer, elk, and antelope. I was a Wyo resident for 30 years and the past 20 years a nonres. I only drew 1 limited elk tag in all those years as a Wyo resident and a nonres before they started pref pts. Once Wyo started pref pts for nonres I have drawn 2 elk tags plus 2 deer tags the past 4 years. I expect to draw my 3rd elk and deer tags in the next couple years thanks to the pref pt system. My Wyo res buddy has applied for similar units and has drawn 0 and his draw odds continue to take a nose dive every year.
I can assure you, it isn't going to get any easier to draw Wyo resident deer, elk, and antelope tags without some sort of a pref/bonus pt system for res. Obviously it is going to get tougher and tougher to draw tags as a Wyo res as the state's population continues to grow! More people...more applicants....worse draw odds!
I don't believe the answer is to lower nonres tag numbers and decrease funding to the WG&F and I can't see this happening. A pref pt system would require anyone that drew a tag to step back to the end of the line and give others in front of them a chance to draw a tag. Obviously with the current system some guys draw back to back tags while others may wait years to draw 1 tag.
Most Wyo residents haven't been in favor of a pref pt system because they have seen how horrible this system has worked for sheep and moose. It is pretty obviously the pref pt system doesn't work very well for any species where there are thousands of applicants vying for a handfull of tags!
If you think about it the turnover of tags for deer, elk, and antelope are very quick due to the generous number of tags offered for these species compared to sheep and moose. Obviously the toughest deer and elk units in the state may take several years to draw w/a pref pt system but anyone that draws a tag has to go to the end of the line....so your odds will improve if you continue to apply...not so with the current no pref pt res system. There are also lots of options/units for Wyo res to draw deer, elk, and antelope tags every year if you don't apply for the toughest draw areas.
I am so grateful Wyo offers pref pts to nonres! If I was a Wyo res I would be complaining and trying my best to get some sort of pref/bonus pt system for deer, elk, and antelope! Your odds for drawing great limited deer, elk, and antelope units every year or 2 will increase dramatically with such a system..unlike the current moose and sheep!
Non-Resident here with eleven moose points...not on board with the changes of course.
Dropped out of the sheep draw with six or seven points. The math combined with my age made that choice for me.
Same math/age consideration told me to stay in the moose draw.
Since then, tag numbers have dropped and the complaints about declining quality have risen. Still, I've stayed with the program figuring this will be my one and only shot at ever hunting Shiras moose.
So, now I'm more than a decade and several hundred dollars vested.....and they want to "make it fair"?
I understand the economics of tag and application price increases. I support tag reductions for biological reasons. I can't support watching my odds go down the drain because the Wyoming is second guessing the "fairness" of the system they created.
Dropped out of the sheep draw with six or seven points. The math combined with my age made that choice for me.
Same math/age consideration told me to stay in the moose draw.
Since then, tag numbers have dropped and the complaints about declining quality have risen. Still, I've stayed with the program figuring this will be my one and only shot at ever hunting Shiras moose.
So, now I'm more than a decade and several hundred dollars vested.....and they want to "make it fair"?
I understand the economics of tag and application price increases. I support tag reductions for biological reasons. I can't support watching my odds go down the drain because the Wyoming is second guessing the "fairness" of the system they created.
in archer, what state are you from? Utah who gives around 6-7% of the OIL tags to Non residents or Arizona who some years don't give any but the total is capped at 10% for any unit.
As a Non Resident I'm glad you have pref points to but don't wish that crap on us. They don't work, make opportunity, lower the amount of people putting in. Thats how we fix odds.
As a Non Resident I'm glad you have pref points to but don't wish that crap on us. They don't work, make opportunity, lower the amount of people putting in. Thats how we fix odds.
I'm from Indiana....same NR pool as the other 48 states.
Didn't "wish" anything on you that I'm aware of? Just opposed to Wyoming flushing my draw odds down the drain after taking my money for the past eleven years.
Been sending in $185/year (moose, elk, deer and antelope) and have never hunted one day in Wyoming. Knocking on the door for a moose tag...and now this? Makes me wonder what is in the works for the rest of my points?
The proposal is a huge negative for me...so I'm not sure what you expect?
Didn't "wish" anything on you that I'm aware of? Just opposed to Wyoming flushing my draw odds down the drain after taking my money for the past eleven years.
Been sending in $185/year (moose, elk, deer and antelope) and have never hunted one day in Wyoming. Knocking on the door for a moose tag...and now this? Makes me wonder what is in the works for the rest of my points?
The proposal is a huge negative for me...so I'm not sure what you expect?
dwalton
Very Active Member
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My wife got the survey yesterday. I think the split should go to 25% pref; 75% random. There is something inherently wrong with a system that locks you out if you are several years behind. Wyoming DOES NOT need to further complicate things by creating a resident preference point system for D,E&A. The 5% or less drawing areas will have several hundred years of backlogged points withing 2 years of the system being implemented. I have a 10 year old and a 7 year old. If resident point systems are put in place, they will see their draw odds drop from 5% to less than 2% (in addition to never getting out of the random pool). I would be in favor of waiting periods in the hard to draw areas.
Buzz, I'm on the same page as you. We don't need to put the screws to the non-ressy by dropping the quota. I, also agree about getting rid of the silly "wilderness law".
Once again, we're seeing the evolution of a points system. Yet, we still have people wanting to add more point systems.???
Buzz, I'm on the same page as you. We don't need to put the screws to the non-ressy by dropping the quota. I, also agree about getting rid of the silly "wilderness law".
Once again, we're seeing the evolution of a points system. Yet, we still have people wanting to add more point systems.???
LAST EDITED ON May-17-10 AT 06:31PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-17-10 AT 06:28?PM (MST)
DWalton and other Wyo residents:
You REALLY need to look at the draw stats for deer, elk, and antelope because it will be an eye opener. Out of all the limited deer, elk, and antelope units in Wyo there were ONLY a total of 5 deer, 10 elk, and 0 antelope units that had less than 10% draw odds for Wyo residents. That means with the current tags available it would take less than 10 years to GUARANTEE you will draw most of the best deer, elk, and antelope units Wyo has to offer if a pref pt system was available to residents. How many years have you applied for Wyo elk without drawing a tag?
To look at this in a little more detail, there were approximately 67 limited elk units available in 2009. All but 20 of the 67 limited elk units had greater than 20% chance of draw in 2009. This means you would be GUARANTEED to draw a limited bull elk tag in approximately 66% of the available elk units in less than 5 years with a pref pt system.
All but 9 of the 50 limited deer units had greater than 20% chance of draw and only 20 of the 50 limited tags had greater than 50% chance of drawing. You would be GUARANTEED to draw a limited deer tag in 60% of the limited deer units every other year w/pref pts. How many of you Wyo residents draw deer tags every other year with the current system?
Now comes the fun part..antelope! There were only 3 units in the entire state out of 117 that took less tha 10% chance of draw. Out of the 117 total antelope units there were only 26 that took less than 50% chance to draw. That means you would be GUARANTEED a buck antelope tag every other year in over 75% of the antelope units in Wyo as a resident w/pref pts....not bad draw odds. How many of you Wyo res draw super antelope tags every year with the current system and top Wyo units in the state every other year?
Without pts Wyo res can continue applying and hoping to draw!
DWalton and other Wyo residents:
You REALLY need to look at the draw stats for deer, elk, and antelope because it will be an eye opener. Out of all the limited deer, elk, and antelope units in Wyo there were ONLY a total of 5 deer, 10 elk, and 0 antelope units that had less than 10% draw odds for Wyo residents. That means with the current tags available it would take less than 10 years to GUARANTEE you will draw most of the best deer, elk, and antelope units Wyo has to offer if a pref pt system was available to residents. How many years have you applied for Wyo elk without drawing a tag?
To look at this in a little more detail, there were approximately 67 limited elk units available in 2009. All but 20 of the 67 limited elk units had greater than 20% chance of draw in 2009. This means you would be GUARANTEED to draw a limited bull elk tag in approximately 66% of the available elk units in less than 5 years with a pref pt system.
All but 9 of the 50 limited deer units had greater than 20% chance of draw and only 20 of the 50 limited tags had greater than 50% chance of drawing. You would be GUARANTEED to draw a limited deer tag in 60% of the limited deer units every other year w/pref pts. How many of you Wyo residents draw deer tags every other year with the current system?
Now comes the fun part..antelope! There were only 3 units in the entire state out of 117 that took less tha 10% chance of draw. Out of the 117 total antelope units there were only 26 that took less than 50% chance to draw. That means you would be GUARANTEED a buck antelope tag every other year in over 75% of the antelope units in Wyo as a resident w/pref pts....not bad draw odds. How many of you Wyo res draw super antelope tags every year with the current system and top Wyo units in the state every other year?
Without pts Wyo res can continue applying and hoping to draw!
H
HillbillyNnevada
Guest
LAST EDITED ON May-17-10 AT 07:57PM (MST)[p]Wow! This may be the first time that I have agreed with Buzz.
Go figure, residents in favor of putting the screw to nonresidents. I never saw that coming. It seems no matter what state it is, the residents always think nonresidents should get a couple tags but complain if resident deer tag costs more than $30 or a sheep tag costs more than $100. Unbelieveable!
Some of you Wyoming residents really amaze me. Wyoming is one of the most game rich states in the union while the population of Wyoming is smaller than the turnout of the last pro-illegal immigration rally in Phoenix. You guys got it great as it is and just don't realize it. Everyone always wants more.
Go figure, residents in favor of putting the screw to nonresidents. I never saw that coming. It seems no matter what state it is, the residents always think nonresidents should get a couple tags but complain if resident deer tag costs more than $30 or a sheep tag costs more than $100. Unbelieveable!
Some of you Wyoming residents really amaze me. Wyoming is one of the most game rich states in the union while the population of Wyoming is smaller than the turnout of the last pro-illegal immigration rally in Phoenix. You guys got it great as it is and just don't realize it. Everyone always wants more.
dwalton
Very Active Member
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- 1,535
Actually, I have stated before that a points system would work very well for antelope. It would be very easy to cycle through the points. A person could easily draw every 2 to 3 years in most areas. Preference point systems work well in draws that have 25 to 60% odds.
Deer and elk are more problematic. Points would be very cheap ($7). You forget that a resident can try to draw, and if unsuccessful, buy an over the counter tag. This throws a monkey wrench in your predictions, Jim. If a person can build points, and still hunt every year; there is no downside to collecting points. Internet applications, minimal cost, and no risk to a person hunting every year would create a back-log in the limited quota areas. The draw odds, would drop in most cases (except for those in the top 2 years of points).
So, while you are spot on for the antelope, I think deer and elk would be a whole 'nother can of worms. Look at Colorado elk and the "top tier" units for my justification.
Deer and elk are more problematic. Points would be very cheap ($7). You forget that a resident can try to draw, and if unsuccessful, buy an over the counter tag. This throws a monkey wrench in your predictions, Jim. If a person can build points, and still hunt every year; there is no downside to collecting points. Internet applications, minimal cost, and no risk to a person hunting every year would create a back-log in the limited quota areas. The draw odds, would drop in most cases (except for those in the top 2 years of points).
So, while you are spot on for the antelope, I think deer and elk would be a whole 'nother can of worms. Look at Colorado elk and the "top tier" units for my justification.
DWalton,
You would be GUARANTEED an elk and deer tag as a WY res with pref pts in 50 to 60% of the units available in 5 years time! If you don't apply for the tough units you would be guaranteed deer and elk tags every 2 to 3 years. That is mighty good draw odds for great deer and elk units if you ask me!
The pref pt system in Colo actually works very, very well for all but 3 or 4 units in the entire state. I hunt incredible muledeer and elk units every 2 to 4 years! If I archery or muzzy hunted it would be even fewer years. Obviously the toughest draw units in Colo will be almost impossible to draw with any point system...there is no getting around it.
The great thing about Colo is it offers so many options for hunters...archery, muzzy, early high country, 3 rifle seasons, late rifle that it spreads out applicants and hunting pressure over many seasons. There are fantastic hunts that can be drawn every year even though there is an incredible number of hunters vying for tags. I happen to like CO's system!
You would have to admit that Wyo residents are fairly spoiled because they can hunt multiple units and seasons (archery plus rifle) with general tags. I have a feeling this will likely change as time progresses and it becomes tougher to draw tags.
Draw odds for nonres are becoming better than Wyo res due to the pref pt system. I am currently guarantteed an antelope tag every year, deer every 2 years, and elk every 3 or 4 years. I love the pref pt system for deer, elk, and antelope in Wyo!
You would be GUARANTEED an elk and deer tag as a WY res with pref pts in 50 to 60% of the units available in 5 years time! If you don't apply for the tough units you would be guaranteed deer and elk tags every 2 to 3 years. That is mighty good draw odds for great deer and elk units if you ask me!
The pref pt system in Colo actually works very, very well for all but 3 or 4 units in the entire state. I hunt incredible muledeer and elk units every 2 to 4 years! If I archery or muzzy hunted it would be even fewer years. Obviously the toughest draw units in Colo will be almost impossible to draw with any point system...there is no getting around it.
The great thing about Colo is it offers so many options for hunters...archery, muzzy, early high country, 3 rifle seasons, late rifle that it spreads out applicants and hunting pressure over many seasons. There are fantastic hunts that can be drawn every year even though there is an incredible number of hunters vying for tags. I happen to like CO's system!
You would have to admit that Wyo residents are fairly spoiled because they can hunt multiple units and seasons (archery plus rifle) with general tags. I have a feeling this will likely change as time progresses and it becomes tougher to draw tags.
Draw odds for nonres are becoming better than Wyo res due to the pref pt system. I am currently guarantteed an antelope tag every year, deer every 2 years, and elk every 3 or 4 years. I love the pref pt system for deer, elk, and antelope in Wyo!
ICMDEER
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,016
Just to document that tere's more than one person in Wyoming that thinks the split at 75/25 is fair, I'll chime in.
But JIMS has stated the case for resident preference points very well. Unless you know someone who handles the draw or you have really good luck, you don't draw any quality hunts as a resident. As I mentioned, I'm 19 years into a quality antelope license and if the odds had played out fairly, I would have been in the Red Desert at least 3-4 times during that period; maybe more.
Additionally, the G&F could make a little side money by charging us residents a small fee for the points.
Finally, I also agree with setting aside some areas for quality management and issuing some limited quota late-season muzz or archery licenses for those areas. But if we don't get preference points and the licenses always go to the same people in the draw, I'm opposed to that change.
Also, by going to a system where we have preference points for residents, it might make those of us who are convinced the draw is rigged believe that it will be handled in a fair and above board fashion.
I've been watching these license draws for over 35 years and it would take a LOT to convince me that there's not a little manipulation involved.
But JIMS has stated the case for resident preference points very well. Unless you know someone who handles the draw or you have really good luck, you don't draw any quality hunts as a resident. As I mentioned, I'm 19 years into a quality antelope license and if the odds had played out fairly, I would have been in the Red Desert at least 3-4 times during that period; maybe more.
Additionally, the G&F could make a little side money by charging us residents a small fee for the points.
Finally, I also agree with setting aside some areas for quality management and issuing some limited quota late-season muzz or archery licenses for those areas. But if we don't get preference points and the licenses always go to the same people in the draw, I'm opposed to that change.
Also, by going to a system where we have preference points for residents, it might make those of us who are convinced the draw is rigged believe that it will be handled in a fair and above board fashion.
I've been watching these license draws for over 35 years and it would take a LOT to convince me that there's not a little manipulation involved.
I guess I'd have to say just leave the preference points they way they are with 75/25 split. I drew my sheep tag last year so the 50/50 would benefit me more when I can apply again when my five years are up. I have 14 moose points so the 75/25 would be better in that situation. I apply for moose in the bighorns and with the current system it looks like it will take 15-20 years from now to wipe out the point holders above me, so I could conceivably have 40+ years of applying before i am guranteed one of those tags. Make it 50/50 and Im looking at 50+ years before I am guranteed a tag. Im thinking pretty seriously about giving up on a bighorns moose tag and just cash my points in on one of the many other areas I am guranteed to draw right now. Changing to a 50/50 split isnt going to improve odds in the randrom draw that much and will just compound the logjam that already exists at the top. I would like to see 10% cap for non-residents and raise the price for residents, I wouldnt have a problem paying as much $1000 for a moose sheep or goat tag as a resident.
As far as deer, elk, and antelope I pray we NEVER have a prefernce point system for them. They dont work and arent fair, they are only good as long as you are on top and once you draw you're out of the game for a long time. I dont want to go from drawing my reasonably easy tags every couple of years to have to wait 5+ years to draw them. On the other hand I guess i might be able to stomach points for areas with less than 15% odds. Considering virtually all of WY's hard to draw areas are overrated.
I do think a waiting period might work on areas with less than 20% draw odds, but there could be a problem if a person draws one of those tags and then during the waiting period can still apply in other areas that dont have waiting periods. It would need to be no limited quota tags during the waiting period at all. I would also be willing to pay higher prices for LQ tags. Also wouldnt mind if they had a special price draw like they do for NR's
I don't know what the solution is, but the only thing I feel really strongly about is NO point system for res. deer, elk, antelope. In the end I would really just prefer they don't change anything at all.
As far as deer, elk, and antelope I pray we NEVER have a prefernce point system for them. They dont work and arent fair, they are only good as long as you are on top and once you draw you're out of the game for a long time. I dont want to go from drawing my reasonably easy tags every couple of years to have to wait 5+ years to draw them. On the other hand I guess i might be able to stomach points for areas with less than 15% odds. Considering virtually all of WY's hard to draw areas are overrated.
I do think a waiting period might work on areas with less than 20% draw odds, but there could be a problem if a person draws one of those tags and then during the waiting period can still apply in other areas that dont have waiting periods. It would need to be no limited quota tags during the waiting period at all. I would also be willing to pay higher prices for LQ tags. Also wouldnt mind if they had a special price draw like they do for NR's
I don't know what the solution is, but the only thing I feel really strongly about is NO point system for res. deer, elk, antelope. In the end I would really just prefer they don't change anything at all.
Wyo,
Did you happen to read my posts above? I clearly pointed out that you WILL draw and be GUARANTEED antelope, deer, and elk tags in all but only a couple units in the entire state every year or 2 w/a pref pt system!
This is an example that most Wyo res don't understand the system and how it works nor are they willing to look at draw stats to figure out that it will actually improve their odds of drawing tags every couple of years!
Did you happen to read my posts above? I clearly pointed out that you WILL draw and be GUARANTEED antelope, deer, and elk tags in all but only a couple units in the entire state every year or 2 w/a pref pt system!
This is an example that most Wyo res don't understand the system and how it works nor are they willing to look at draw stats to figure out that it will actually improve their odds of drawing tags every couple of years!
LAST EDITED ON May-19-10 AT 08:18AM (MST)[p]At the last G & F meeting I was at, they stated their numbers indicate 60% of residents would support a preference point system. The problem is and its noted in some of these posts that folks are ignorant about possible preference point systems. Everyeone reacts negatively thinking it'll be a pure points system where everyone has to wait 20 years for a license. Not so. Colorado's system of pure points sucks. Utah has a better system with bonus points. Colorado has an excellent system with their sheep, goat and moose where points are capped at three years and then go to a weighted point system for everything accured over 3. I'm sure you could come up with some better systems and then on top of that you could have a 75/25 or 50/50 split using random tags like we do with resident moose and sheep. I'd favor either a Utah style system or Colorado Moose type system with a 75/25 random draw attached. And maybe even add a one year waiting period for elk. This would be a huge improvement over what we currently have. Again most folks are ignorant and think the only choice is a pure points sytem.
dwalton
Very Active Member
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- 1,535
There will be no GUARANTEE of deer & elk licenses for the simple reason residents can apply, AND if unsuccessful, stil buy and OTC tag and go hunting. I am certain that point creep will be a way of life in most of the highly accessed public land areas in Western Wyoming(remember where most of the easy draws are, private land is usually an issue). It's pretty easy to say that my 10 and 7 year old would be locked out of the SW WY areas, (30,31,100 elk & 102 deer) just like the moose and sheep draws. Also, why would I drive across the state to hunt a limited quota elk area with access issues when I can hunt in the Wyoming Range from Sept 1 through Nov with a general tag? Like I said, there is a reason why many of the limited quota draws have good odds.
An antelope point system would work well, but I'm sure that it would all come in a bundled package of D,E&A.
Jim, just because I'm against Wyo resident points doesn't mean I'm ignorant. I feel we have a good system in place that doesn't need to be "fixed". Let's just say we respectfully disagree on the idea.
Triple_BB: Utah? Are you serious? If there's a poster-child for point system problems, Utah would get serious consideration.
An antelope point system would work well, but I'm sure that it would all come in a bundled package of D,E&A.
Jim, just because I'm against Wyo resident points doesn't mean I'm ignorant. I feel we have a good system in place that doesn't need to be "fixed". Let's just say we respectfully disagree on the idea.
Triple_BB: Utah? Are you serious? If there's a poster-child for point system problems, Utah would get serious consideration.
Dwalton,
You really need to keep an open mind on this one. I am a Wyo nonres and have no reason to entice Wyo res to start some sort of pt system...other than the fact that I know it would work extremely well for antelope, deer, and elk. You are so lucky to be a Wyo res where there are so many big game tags handed out for the low number of Wyo residents in your state! The ratio of tags to resident hunters is outrageous and it is somewhat obsurd not to take advantage of this with some sort of point system.
I apply all over the western us for limited tags and know the ins and outs of all the draw systems. I have been fortunate to draw many tags over the years that I would consider are once in a lifetime tags...and I expect to draw more once in a lifetime tags in Wyo in the coming few years...thanks to their pref pt system for deer, antelope AND elk!
I would be the first to admit that the current system does not work for Wyo moose and sheep but there is no doubt in my mind it works for nonres deer, elk, and antelope....and would work even better for residents for these species. You are shooting yourself in the foot without it!
I would have to agree with Triple BB that Utahs draw system is very fair. It gives everyone that applies for tags a chance to draw and those that have applied the longest a little better chance to draw. The reason there are so many complaints in UT is because there are so few tags available in all of the LE units....similar to why Wyo is facing problems with their current sheep and moose draw system.
There are hunters here in Colo that are willing to wait a lifetime to draw unit 2, 10, and 201 elk tags. The odds of any youngster ever drawing these tags whether there is pref pts or not is just about 0. Similar to odds of your kids ever drawing a 30, 31, or 100 elk tags in Wyo! Your odds currently in those units are 7, 5, and 3% respectively. It is your choice whether you apply your kids for tough units or units they have a great chance of drawing and hunting every couple years. If you honestly think your kids have a better chance of drawing these tags without some sort of pref pt system...all the power to you! I would advise looking at the draw stats for several years and it may open your eyes! Wyo continues to grow in population and the draw odds for these units continues to decline. As an example, in 2005 there were 1,205 Wyo elk resident applicants and in 2009 there were 1,824 res applicants in unit 31. With that rate of increase what draw odds do you think your kids will have in 2020?
It is up to you and your kids whether you want to apply for the toughest units in Wyo for elk. As I've mentioned a number of times there are only a handful of units with horrible draw odds and the majority of units would take less than 5 years to draw with a pref pt system.
My son will be tickled to death just to experience elk hunting in Wyo and it would be a shame to wait a lifetime when there are so many other great options available in Wyo! With a pref pt system I can guarantee your kids would draw great units with lots of public land in only a few years time. Obviously it is up to you if you want them to apply for the toughest units in Wyo to draw. "IF" they ever do draw I'm sure they will have a great time.
I can guarantee my son will hunt some great Wyo limited elk units with lots of public land accesss the next few years while your sons may be waiting a lifetime to draw 1 unit 30, 31, and 100 tag....especially w/out a pref pt system! Good luck to your sons!
I've pretty much stated my case and if you aren't willing to look at the draw stats and look at other draw system options....you are really missing out on some great opportunities for you and your kids!
You really need to keep an open mind on this one. I am a Wyo nonres and have no reason to entice Wyo res to start some sort of pt system...other than the fact that I know it would work extremely well for antelope, deer, and elk. You are so lucky to be a Wyo res where there are so many big game tags handed out for the low number of Wyo residents in your state! The ratio of tags to resident hunters is outrageous and it is somewhat obsurd not to take advantage of this with some sort of point system.
I apply all over the western us for limited tags and know the ins and outs of all the draw systems. I have been fortunate to draw many tags over the years that I would consider are once in a lifetime tags...and I expect to draw more once in a lifetime tags in Wyo in the coming few years...thanks to their pref pt system for deer, antelope AND elk!
I would be the first to admit that the current system does not work for Wyo moose and sheep but there is no doubt in my mind it works for nonres deer, elk, and antelope....and would work even better for residents for these species. You are shooting yourself in the foot without it!
I would have to agree with Triple BB that Utahs draw system is very fair. It gives everyone that applies for tags a chance to draw and those that have applied the longest a little better chance to draw. The reason there are so many complaints in UT is because there are so few tags available in all of the LE units....similar to why Wyo is facing problems with their current sheep and moose draw system.
There are hunters here in Colo that are willing to wait a lifetime to draw unit 2, 10, and 201 elk tags. The odds of any youngster ever drawing these tags whether there is pref pts or not is just about 0. Similar to odds of your kids ever drawing a 30, 31, or 100 elk tags in Wyo! Your odds currently in those units are 7, 5, and 3% respectively. It is your choice whether you apply your kids for tough units or units they have a great chance of drawing and hunting every couple years. If you honestly think your kids have a better chance of drawing these tags without some sort of pref pt system...all the power to you! I would advise looking at the draw stats for several years and it may open your eyes! Wyo continues to grow in population and the draw odds for these units continues to decline. As an example, in 2005 there were 1,205 Wyo elk resident applicants and in 2009 there were 1,824 res applicants in unit 31. With that rate of increase what draw odds do you think your kids will have in 2020?
It is up to you and your kids whether you want to apply for the toughest units in Wyo for elk. As I've mentioned a number of times there are only a handful of units with horrible draw odds and the majority of units would take less than 5 years to draw with a pref pt system.
My son will be tickled to death just to experience elk hunting in Wyo and it would be a shame to wait a lifetime when there are so many other great options available in Wyo! With a pref pt system I can guarantee your kids would draw great units with lots of public land in only a few years time. Obviously it is up to you if you want them to apply for the toughest units in Wyo to draw. "IF" they ever do draw I'm sure they will have a great time.
I can guarantee my son will hunt some great Wyo limited elk units with lots of public land accesss the next few years while your sons may be waiting a lifetime to draw 1 unit 30, 31, and 100 tag....especially w/out a pref pt system! Good luck to your sons!
I've pretty much stated my case and if you aren't willing to look at the draw stats and look at other draw system options....you are really missing out on some great opportunities for you and your kids!
Jims...I have read your posts and understand the point systems clearly, you do make some valid points. However I still don't think a point system for WY residents would be good. I study the draws every year and look at the data very closely I understand precisely how WY point system works for moose and sheep. In fact I look forward to the draw odds almost as much as the draw itself. I have been pretty good at predicting what the draw odds will be each year for areas I am interested in.
I have drawn 3 elk tags, 3 deer tags, and 2 antelope tags in the last 5 years. All of which were in areas that I prefer to hunt (with the exception of one antelope tag). I don't put in for extremely tough draws but somehow I have a hard time believing that I would be guranteed to draw more tags than that in 5 years. I think it would be more realistic to think that I would probably only draw 1 deer, 1 elk, and 1 antelope tag in five years if points were involved. I think you are probably right that for the areas I put in for I would be guranteed to draw ONE deer, elk, or antelope tag every couple of years whereas now there are no gurantees at all...but some simple statistics and math can show that with the combined draw odds of the areas I apply for I have statstically great chance of drawing at least one of my choice deer, elk, or antelope tags every year even though I have gone seasons with out drawing anything multiple times. I guess I just fail to see why anything needs to change and I am completely happy with my hunting opportunities in WY the way it is. Oh wait its all the people that apply for areas like 100 elk, and red desert antelope that get to complaining because they can't draw these overrated tough to draw areas. They cry for a point system which will some day gurantee them their coveted tag probably only once or twice in a lifetime and while doing so make it harder for the rest of us to draw tags in less popular areas that were once not so hard to draw.
I have drawn 3 elk tags, 3 deer tags, and 2 antelope tags in the last 5 years. All of which were in areas that I prefer to hunt (with the exception of one antelope tag). I don't put in for extremely tough draws but somehow I have a hard time believing that I would be guranteed to draw more tags than that in 5 years. I think it would be more realistic to think that I would probably only draw 1 deer, 1 elk, and 1 antelope tag in five years if points were involved. I think you are probably right that for the areas I put in for I would be guranteed to draw ONE deer, elk, or antelope tag every couple of years whereas now there are no gurantees at all...but some simple statistics and math can show that with the combined draw odds of the areas I apply for I have statstically great chance of drawing at least one of my choice deer, elk, or antelope tags every year even though I have gone seasons with out drawing anything multiple times. I guess I just fail to see why anything needs to change and I am completely happy with my hunting opportunities in WY the way it is. Oh wait its all the people that apply for areas like 100 elk, and red desert antelope that get to complaining because they can't draw these overrated tough to draw areas. They cry for a point system which will some day gurantee them their coveted tag probably only once or twice in a lifetime and while doing so make it harder for the rest of us to draw tags in less popular areas that were once not so hard to draw.
dwalton
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,535
Jim,
I can read the draw odds from the G&F just fine, thanks. I, too, have a significant "points collection" throughout the West. Been in the game for 18 years, so I would say I have plenty of experience of seeing how the points systems constantly evolve, and the devaluation of points as a result of these changes.
In regards to Utah, you must have missed the little change that allows a non-resident to apply for all species. This added thousands of new applicants for each drawing into the mix, driving the random draw odds into astronomical territory. Unless you're in the top points, bonus tag pool your chances for a non-resident tag are VERY small (even in the lesser areas).
As far as public land elk hunts for my kids, I'd say I've got the bases covered since they can apply, get an OTC tag, and an additional cow/calf tag. Heck, we can hunt public land from Sept. 1 through Dec. AND do it with archery and rifle. But, then again, you did say we were "spoiled" in Wyo.
With that, I wish you and your son the best of luck! Nothing quite like hunting with your children. I agree that points would be a good thing for antelope. I just don't agree we need them for deer and elk. Once again, I hope your son snags a good Wyo tag for this fall, and you two have an excellent hunt!
I can read the draw odds from the G&F just fine, thanks. I, too, have a significant "points collection" throughout the West. Been in the game for 18 years, so I would say I have plenty of experience of seeing how the points systems constantly evolve, and the devaluation of points as a result of these changes.
In regards to Utah, you must have missed the little change that allows a non-resident to apply for all species. This added thousands of new applicants for each drawing into the mix, driving the random draw odds into astronomical territory. Unless you're in the top points, bonus tag pool your chances for a non-resident tag are VERY small (even in the lesser areas).
As far as public land elk hunts for my kids, I'd say I've got the bases covered since they can apply, get an OTC tag, and an additional cow/calf tag. Heck, we can hunt public land from Sept. 1 through Dec. AND do it with archery and rifle. But, then again, you did say we were "spoiled" in Wyo.
With that, I wish you and your son the best of luck! Nothing quite like hunting with your children. I agree that points would be a good thing for antelope. I just don't agree we need them for deer and elk. Once again, I hope your son snags a good Wyo tag for this fall, and you two have an excellent hunt!
Pref points do nothing to improve odds. If I have 10 tags and 100 applicants. I have 10% odds. If I have a pref point system I only change the the way those tags are distributed. Their are two ways to change odds that is to add tags (add to the number 10) or decrease applicants (subtract from the number 100). This is undeniable math.
Pref points do guarantee that eventually you'll draw the tag you put in for but for every LE elk area that surrounds Rock Springs you better be prepared for a long wait. Because the last people with max pool points won't be cycled through the draw for 22+ years. With new people (youth, new hunters) putting in and surge of applicants that always follow a new point system the next time those unlucky few are in the max pool again could be 40-60 years. The biggest reason to stay away from pref points is it absolutly screws are youth. Ask the kids in NW Colorado (who if they start putting in this year won't draw a 201 bull tag for 80 plus years)
The following are ways to improve draw odds.
-Waiting periods (taking applicants out of the draw)
-Only one LE tag per year (taking applicants out of the draw)
-Splitting up seasons to add more tags (add to the tag #)
-adding Le opportunity (add to the tag #)
The bright side to this whole arguement is the residents of this state have the best general season hunting in the country and most of us can agree on that. Last year I had the best hunting season in a decade and I only possessed a bunch of general tags.
Pref points do guarantee that eventually you'll draw the tag you put in for but for every LE elk area that surrounds Rock Springs you better be prepared for a long wait. Because the last people with max pool points won't be cycled through the draw for 22+ years. With new people (youth, new hunters) putting in and surge of applicants that always follow a new point system the next time those unlucky few are in the max pool again could be 40-60 years. The biggest reason to stay away from pref points is it absolutly screws are youth. Ask the kids in NW Colorado (who if they start putting in this year won't draw a 201 bull tag for 80 plus years)
The following are ways to improve draw odds.
-Waiting periods (taking applicants out of the draw)
-Only one LE tag per year (taking applicants out of the draw)
-Splitting up seasons to add more tags (add to the tag #)
-adding Le opportunity (add to the tag #)
The bright side to this whole arguement is the residents of this state have the best general season hunting in the country and most of us can agree on that. Last year I had the best hunting season in a decade and I only possessed a bunch of general tags.
Individual odds can be improved by point systems. I actually liked the old fashoned method of giving one extra ticket in the hat for every year you are unsuccessful in, but point systems have definitely gotten out of hand in most states. and the youth are screwed, and not just by point systems either. Wyoming has great antelope hunting, good elk hunting, and OK deer hunting, but the caliber of bucks and the quality of the hunt in SW wyoming is nothing compared to what it was in the 80s, a sad but true story.
i think the reason the F&G wants to go 50/50 on the tags is all the nonresidents dropping out of trying to get a moose or sheep tag because of point creep and seeing that when they would draw they will be to old. the 50/50 split would give the guy with less points a better chance, so more people would send for those few extra tags. IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!!!! if 100 people more send for a moose tag at 1400 dollars, thats 140,000 they get to put in the bank and draw interest on even if you don't draw. the G&F isn't happy with 75 bucks for a preference point, they need the interest money too! ce61
MNHunter
Active Member
- Messages
- 938
> i think the reason
>the F&G wants to
>go 50/50 on the
>tags is all the nonresidents
>dropping out of trying to
>get a moose or sheep
>tag because of point creep
>and seeing that when they
>would draw they will be
>to old. the 50/50
>split would give the guy
>with less points a better
>chance, so more people would
>send for those few extra
>tags. IT'S ALL ABOUT THE
>MONEY!!!! if 100 people more
>send for a moose tag
> at 1400 dollars, thats
>140,000 they get to put
>in the bank and draw
>interest on even if you
>don't draw. the G&F isn't
>happy with 75 bucks for
>a preference point, they need
>the interest money too!
>ce61
Some states are barred from earning interest on money held in trust (i.e. OUR FUNDS). Do you know for a fact that WY can and does earn interest on our cash????
"Whatever you are, be a good one."
- Abraham Lincoln
>the F&G wants to
>go 50/50 on the
>tags is all the nonresidents
>dropping out of trying to
>get a moose or sheep
>tag because of point creep
>and seeing that when they
>would draw they will be
>to old. the 50/50
>split would give the guy
>with less points a better
>chance, so more people would
>send for those few extra
>tags. IT'S ALL ABOUT THE
>MONEY!!!! if 100 people more
>send for a moose tag
> at 1400 dollars, thats
>140,000 they get to put
>in the bank and draw
>interest on even if you
>don't draw. the G&F isn't
>happy with 75 bucks for
>a preference point, they need
>the interest money too!
>ce61
Some states are barred from earning interest on money held in trust (i.e. OUR FUNDS). Do you know for a fact that WY can and does earn interest on our cash????
"Whatever you are, be a good one."
- Abraham Lincoln
B
BoneHunter
Guest
I think that there are a lot of good points and ideas that have been brought up by everyone. But the bottom line is that no matter what system Wyoming chooses to use or any other state for that matter, there will always be a percentage of hunters that feel that its being run the wrong way. I believe that sportsman being so devided is the biggest problem. We all like to complane about what someone else is doing wrong(myself included) instead of standing up for what we believe in and most importantly standing together as sportsman with one voice to get the states to see it from the sportsmans point of view. My sugestion is that as fellow sportsman we start finding the things that we all agree on the most and put the smaller petty things aside and go to these states with one voice and they will have to change. I don't know exactly how to acomplish this, but what I do know is that it has to start with each one of us finding common ground and standing to gether no matter if you hunt with a bow, rifle, muzzle loader, crossbow or all of the above. We Are Americans and United We Stand...
Fedup2, I haven't returned to this post for some time but have to say that you are totally wrong in your following statement, "Pref points do nothing to improve odds. If I have 10 tags and 100 applicants. I have 10% odds."
How do pref pts improve your odds? You totally disregard the fact that it is possible for some hunters to draw tags in back to back years with the current no pref pt system. Lets use your 10 tags and 100 applicants as an example. You forget that 10 of the 100 applicants will draw tags. Without a pref pt system all 100 applicants can apply the following year and potentially draw the 10 tags. Over 10 years there will be a lot of hunters that draw the same tag while some hunters may not draw 1 tag. This would not be possible with a pref pt system.
What you are overlooking is that w/pref pts the 10 guys that drew tags will not have a chance to draw the following year. In fact, if the same guys apply for the same 10 tags there will be 10 tags with 90 applicants. Instead of 10% draw odds the draw odds will improve to 1 in 9 chance.
Instead of being 10% chance every year without a pref pt system....in 5 years you will have 50:100 or 50% chance of drawing tags with a pref pt sytem and in 10 years you will be guaranteed 100% chance of drawing the tag. As you stated in your post, "this is undeniable math!"
I agree 100% in reference to some of the ways to improve tag availability. I strongly disagree with you that some sort of pt system won't work in Wyo...even for Wyo's upcoming youth. If you read through some of my earlier posts it will explain why!
If you don't mind the fact that some hunters will likely draw several tags tough draw tags in 10 years while some hunters will draw 0 tags in 10 years...so be it! I kind of like the idea that once a tag is drawn the hunter is required to go to the back of the line and start over. There are high enough deer, elk, and antelope tags that cycle through the system that unless you apply for the toughest units in Wyo you will draw tags in only a handful of years w/a pref pt system!
How do pref pts improve your odds? You totally disregard the fact that it is possible for some hunters to draw tags in back to back years with the current no pref pt system. Lets use your 10 tags and 100 applicants as an example. You forget that 10 of the 100 applicants will draw tags. Without a pref pt system all 100 applicants can apply the following year and potentially draw the 10 tags. Over 10 years there will be a lot of hunters that draw the same tag while some hunters may not draw 1 tag. This would not be possible with a pref pt system.
What you are overlooking is that w/pref pts the 10 guys that drew tags will not have a chance to draw the following year. In fact, if the same guys apply for the same 10 tags there will be 10 tags with 90 applicants. Instead of 10% draw odds the draw odds will improve to 1 in 9 chance.
Instead of being 10% chance every year without a pref pt system....in 5 years you will have 50:100 or 50% chance of drawing tags with a pref pt sytem and in 10 years you will be guaranteed 100% chance of drawing the tag. As you stated in your post, "this is undeniable math!"
I agree 100% in reference to some of the ways to improve tag availability. I strongly disagree with you that some sort of pt system won't work in Wyo...even for Wyo's upcoming youth. If you read through some of my earlier posts it will explain why!
If you don't mind the fact that some hunters will likely draw several tags tough draw tags in 10 years while some hunters will draw 0 tags in 10 years...so be it! I kind of like the idea that once a tag is drawn the hunter is required to go to the back of the line and start over. There are high enough deer, elk, and antelope tags that cycle through the system that unless you apply for the toughest units in Wyo you will draw tags in only a handful of years w/a pref pt system!
BuzzH
Long Time Member
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jims,
I think your math is fuzzy at best.
You're making the assumption that the number of applicants in the 10% draw odd area will stay the same for ten years. The trouble is, 10 years down the line, you'll have a bunch of people with "max" points and they will all know what the top units are. Point creep will start, and what was a guarantee in 10 years when you started, will likely take much longer to draw. As hunters get deeper and deeper into point systems, they become more and more reluctant to spend those points on anything but what they feel are the best units. An antelope area with 10% odds is likely one of the best, and it will take longer than 10 years for most to draw it...of that I'm 100% sure.
I can show you NR draw odds in Wyoming to prove it. I can show you the same thing in CO and UT.
I think your math is fuzzy at best.
You're making the assumption that the number of applicants in the 10% draw odd area will stay the same for ten years. The trouble is, 10 years down the line, you'll have a bunch of people with "max" points and they will all know what the top units are. Point creep will start, and what was a guarantee in 10 years when you started, will likely take much longer to draw. As hunters get deeper and deeper into point systems, they become more and more reluctant to spend those points on anything but what they feel are the best units. An antelope area with 10% odds is likely one of the best, and it will take longer than 10 years for most to draw it...of that I'm 100% sure.
I can show you NR draw odds in Wyoming to prove it. I can show you the same thing in CO and UT.
dwalton
Very Active Member
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No, Buzz. You just don't have an "open mind". 
Also, it won't do any good in explaining point creep and draw odds in other point system states, as I have tried to explain it several times above, all to no avail.
Seriously, Wyoming will be no different than the other states with preference points.
1. The system you start with won't be the one you end up with in the end.
2. Point creep will be a way of life because they will be easy to obtain, and a Wyo resident can still hunt with a general tag or a 2nd choice hunt.
3. Applications will actually increase at the start of the game because everyone will want to get in on the ground floor.
Like I've said before. Wyoming has an excellent system in place that does not need to be fixed. We have the luxury of having decent draw odds, and the ability to hunt every year on a general tag. Why do I want to change from having a chance to draw every year to having a ZERO percent chance of drawing for 1 to who knows how many years after getting a permit? Really, the only "fair" way to distribute tags is through a random draw. But then again, that seems to be a foreign concept with many people who think they "deserve" a tag in a certain area.
Enough of my rant. I'm really done with this!
Also, it won't do any good in explaining point creep and draw odds in other point system states, as I have tried to explain it several times above, all to no avail.Seriously, Wyoming will be no different than the other states with preference points.
1. The system you start with won't be the one you end up with in the end.
2. Point creep will be a way of life because they will be easy to obtain, and a Wyo resident can still hunt with a general tag or a 2nd choice hunt.
3. Applications will actually increase at the start of the game because everyone will want to get in on the ground floor.
Like I've said before. Wyoming has an excellent system in place that does not need to be fixed. We have the luxury of having decent draw odds, and the ability to hunt every year on a general tag. Why do I want to change from having a chance to draw every year to having a ZERO percent chance of drawing for 1 to who knows how many years after getting a permit? Really, the only "fair" way to distribute tags is through a random draw. But then again, that seems to be a foreign concept with many people who think they "deserve" a tag in a certain area.
Enough of my rant. I'm really done with this!
It appears everyone who disagrees with a points system assumes we'd have to adopt a pure points endless accumulation type system like Colorado deer or elk which isn't true. I say bring on a modified points system even if it doesn't guarantee a tag. I'll settle for improved odds. One option is to cap points at 3 or 4. If they go to a waiting period, its essentially doing the same thing without calling it pref points. In the difficult area's yer odds may not improve much. Who care's, yer odds already suck. In many area's you'd be guaranteed a tag every time you hit max points. If guy's be-atched about having to wait to apply for 3 - 4 years, let them appy for whatever 2nd choice area's they want or buy general tags. The key to having a fair points system is to make a large percent of the tags available through random draw. Then all the arguments against pure pref points or any other type system are essentially moot. The thing I'd like best is it'd take the argument away from those who claim our youth will never be able to hunt if we have pref points. Bottom line, come up with a points system and make 40 - 50% of the tags available through random draw. Everyone would have a shot at drawing a tag and we'd see increased draw odds. Anyone see any holes in my arguments. What say you?
It appears that there are still Wyo residents that are skeptical even after I have highlighted why some sort of pref/bonus pt system would benefit Wyo residents (young and old).
Here comes the numbers to prove my point: I got these numbers directly from the MonsterMuley Wyo stats area on this website. I will use Wyo deer unit 102 as an example because it is one of the toughest units in Wyo to draw and seems to get a lot of attention.
In 2009 there were approximately 3,500 residents that applied for 300 tags. I will use 300 resident tags because it has been very close to 300 res tags issued each of the past 5 years. In 2005 there were approximately 2,500 res applicants and the number of applicants has gradually increased to approx 3,500 in 2009. In those 5 years the res applicants increased by 1,000.
I will use the 1,000 increase/5 year period to illustrate potential increases in res applicants 5, 10, and up to 15 years from 2009 with and without pref pt systems.
Obviously, if there is an increase of 1,000 applicants/5 year period the draw odds for unit 102 will continue to decrease without a pref pt system if tag numbers remain at 300. Do we all agree? Currently the draw odds with no pref/bonus pts in 102 for Wyo res is 8.6%. In 5 years draw odds will decrease to 6.7%, 10 years 5.4%, and in 20 years the draw odds will decrease to 4%.
Here's the scenerio w/a pure pref pt system where 100% of the tags are issued to hunters w/max pts. Although there may be 1,000 more applicants for 102 tags they have no chance of drawing until all applicants w/max pts cycle through the system. Year 1 everyone would have the same number of pts (8.6% draw odds).
5 years after pref pts are started (5 years x 300 deer tags/year = 1,500 total tags issued). If you subtract 1,500 tags from 3,500 total applicants w/max pts there are 2000 applicants left after 5 years w/max pts (if no one drops out of the system). 300/2000 = 15% draw odds after 5 years.
10 years after pref pts: 300 tags x 5 years = 1,500 more hunters that are taken out of the draw w/max pts because they drew tags. 2,000 max pt applicants - 1,500 already drew = 500. 500/300 tags which equals 60% chance of drawing a 102 tag after 10 years.
12 years after pref pts: All applicants w/max pts have gone through the system and there is 100% chance of drawing a 102 res deer tag.
12 years from now my prediction is approximately 4% draw odds for a 102 res deer tag w/out a pref pt sytem. There would be close to 100% chance of drawing a Wyo res 102 deer tag in less than 12 years with a pref pt system. Obviously you can draw sooner than 12 years w/max pts and a pure pref pt system but the odds are stacked against you drawing a tag in 100 years without pref pts!
I will continue stats for 50% pref pt draw in another post.
Here comes the numbers to prove my point: I got these numbers directly from the MonsterMuley Wyo stats area on this website. I will use Wyo deer unit 102 as an example because it is one of the toughest units in Wyo to draw and seems to get a lot of attention.
In 2009 there were approximately 3,500 residents that applied for 300 tags. I will use 300 resident tags because it has been very close to 300 res tags issued each of the past 5 years. In 2005 there were approximately 2,500 res applicants and the number of applicants has gradually increased to approx 3,500 in 2009. In those 5 years the res applicants increased by 1,000.
I will use the 1,000 increase/5 year period to illustrate potential increases in res applicants 5, 10, and up to 15 years from 2009 with and without pref pt systems.
Obviously, if there is an increase of 1,000 applicants/5 year period the draw odds for unit 102 will continue to decrease without a pref pt system if tag numbers remain at 300. Do we all agree? Currently the draw odds with no pref/bonus pts in 102 for Wyo res is 8.6%. In 5 years draw odds will decrease to 6.7%, 10 years 5.4%, and in 20 years the draw odds will decrease to 4%.
Here's the scenerio w/a pure pref pt system where 100% of the tags are issued to hunters w/max pts. Although there may be 1,000 more applicants for 102 tags they have no chance of drawing until all applicants w/max pts cycle through the system. Year 1 everyone would have the same number of pts (8.6% draw odds).
5 years after pref pts are started (5 years x 300 deer tags/year = 1,500 total tags issued). If you subtract 1,500 tags from 3,500 total applicants w/max pts there are 2000 applicants left after 5 years w/max pts (if no one drops out of the system). 300/2000 = 15% draw odds after 5 years.
10 years after pref pts: 300 tags x 5 years = 1,500 more hunters that are taken out of the draw w/max pts because they drew tags. 2,000 max pt applicants - 1,500 already drew = 500. 500/300 tags which equals 60% chance of drawing a 102 tag after 10 years.
12 years after pref pts: All applicants w/max pts have gone through the system and there is 100% chance of drawing a 102 res deer tag.
12 years from now my prediction is approximately 4% draw odds for a 102 res deer tag w/out a pref pt sytem. There would be close to 100% chance of drawing a Wyo res 102 deer tag in less than 12 years with a pref pt system. Obviously you can draw sooner than 12 years w/max pts and a pure pref pt system but the odds are stacked against you drawing a tag in 100 years without pref pts!
I will continue stats for 50% pref pt draw in another post.
LAST EDITED ON Jun-01-10 AT 06:10PM (MST)[p]Now I will post similar draw odds with a system where 50% of the tags go to applicants w/max pts and the other 50% of applicants all have the same chance to draw tags.
Obviously this system takes twice as long for max pt holders to cycle through the system as a pure pref pt system where only max pt applicants have a chance to draw all tags. I will try to make this short. If you would like all the stats I would be more than happy to email them to you.
I used the same 300 x unit 102 tags issued/year and increase of 1,000 applicants/5 years. After 5 yrs w/50% applicants w/max pts would have a 5.4% chance to draw, after 10 years 7.5%, after 15 years 12%, and 20 years there is 30% chance.
The 50% numbers actually don't account for the 4 to 8.6% draw odds in the regular 50% draw....so your odds would be better than what I have stated.
Obviously with this system everyone (including kids just starting out applying) could draw a tag any year and draw odds are ok at 15 years and pretty darn good at 20 years. Without pref pts your draw odds are horrible, getting worse every year and you may never draw a tag in your lifetime!
102 is one of THE TOUGHEST units in Wyo to draw and it is pretty obvious how a pref pt system would be favorable to residents regardless of age. The other 90% of Wyo deer units hand out way more tags and cycle through the pref pt system in a fraction of the time (1 to 3 years for most)!
Obviously this system takes twice as long for max pt holders to cycle through the system as a pure pref pt system where only max pt applicants have a chance to draw all tags. I will try to make this short. If you would like all the stats I would be more than happy to email them to you.
I used the same 300 x unit 102 tags issued/year and increase of 1,000 applicants/5 years. After 5 yrs w/50% applicants w/max pts would have a 5.4% chance to draw, after 10 years 7.5%, after 15 years 12%, and 20 years there is 30% chance.
The 50% numbers actually don't account for the 4 to 8.6% draw odds in the regular 50% draw....so your odds would be better than what I have stated.
Obviously with this system everyone (including kids just starting out applying) could draw a tag any year and draw odds are ok at 15 years and pretty darn good at 20 years. Without pref pts your draw odds are horrible, getting worse every year and you may never draw a tag in your lifetime!
102 is one of THE TOUGHEST units in Wyo to draw and it is pretty obvious how a pref pt system would be favorable to residents regardless of age. The other 90% of Wyo deer units hand out way more tags and cycle through the pref pt system in a fraction of the time (1 to 3 years for most)!
BuzzH
Long Time Member
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LAST EDITED ON Jun-02-10 AT 08:45AM (MST)[p]jims,
You're trying to sell a point system where it will take 12-20 years to draw a deer tag? Waiting that long for that tag surely isnt worth creating a point system for. I'd rather roll the dice in a random draw. I wont be disappointed if I never draw one of the LE deer units in Wyoming. I think a 5-year waiting period for successful applicants would be a better idea...the hell with a preference system that benefits only those with max points.
How about those with one less than max points? How about those with 2 less than max?
Any idea how long it will take them to draw a 102 tag?
Hope they carry life insurance...more likely to cash out that than cash in their points.
You're trying to sell a point system where it will take 12-20 years to draw a deer tag? Waiting that long for that tag surely isnt worth creating a point system for. I'd rather roll the dice in a random draw. I wont be disappointed if I never draw one of the LE deer units in Wyoming. I think a 5-year waiting period for successful applicants would be a better idea...the hell with a preference system that benefits only those with max points.
How about those with one less than max points? How about those with 2 less than max?
Any idea how long it will take them to draw a 102 tag?
Hope they carry life insurance...more likely to cash out that than cash in their points.
Buzz, It doesn't sound like you looked in detail at my posts above and what I said was pretty much meaningless to you. How about other Wyo res that would love to draw and hunt LE units on a regular basis?
102 is close to the toughest unit in Wyo to draw and you would have 100% chance of drawing it in 12 years. There is a very good chance you could draw it sooner than 12 years. Your odds are close to 0 of ever drawing that tag without a pt system.
To answer your question in regard to less than max pref pt applicants: On average there are 300 res tags issued in 102 each year. There has been an average increase of 1,000 new applicants every 5 years. This means on average every year there has been an increase of 200 new applicants.
Year 12 everyone w/max pts will have drawn 102 tags. Some guys w/max pts drew it year 1 while others will be guaranteed to draw by year 12. Year 13 every person w/1 pt less than max and chunk of people w/2 less than max pts would be guaranteed 100% to draw 102 tags. If you want me to send you these numbers please email me. There are 300 tags issued and an average of 200 new applicants/year so it wouldn't take long to cycle all applicants through the system.
If you ask me, I'd be pretty excited about knowing that I could draw a 102 tag guaranteed in 12 or less years w/a pref pt system. Some guys w/max pts will draw year 1 and every year your odds get better....rather than getting worse w/out a pt system! Does that make any sense to you? If not, you may want to look at my 2 posts above!
Without pts your odds are deteriorating every year...they will soon be close to 4% draw odds with the increase in applicants. The last time I checked 4% means 4 guys out of 100 will draw tags! Right now they are just over 8 in 100.
If you wanted to apply for great units elsewhere in Wyo you would be guarantteed 100% of drawing those tags every other or every 2 years w/a pt system. I have a feeling most Wyo res would be pretty excited knowing they would be guaranteed LE tags every 1 to 3 years in many of the best units in the state!
A 50:50 pref pt system is also an option and a pretty good compromise between the 2 systems. It gives everyone and their dog a chance of drawing half the tags and the other half are issued/rewarded to the guys that have relentlessly tried to apply for tags without luck for years. The 50% pref pt pool also eliminates guys that have already drawn a tag and sends them to the back of the line (in the 50% max pt pool). It takes twice as long for 50/50 applcants to cycle but many guys believe this is a pretty fair system for those just starting out and those that have applied for the same tag for years.
Believe me, I was SO excited when Wyo instituted a pref pt system for nonres and would really like res to have the same great opportunity to draw le tags on a regular basis! I have drawn WAY more tags the past 5 years w/pref pts than I did in 25 years as a Wyo res. I have studied in detail the res vs nonres draw odds and statistics...believe me resident draw odds would be WAY better than nonres w/a pt system.
I can't really understand your thinking...."I wont be disappointed if I never draw one of the LE deer units in Wyoming." There are a lot of Wyo residents that would be pretty excited knowing they will draw a 102 tag in less than 12 years or can apply elsewhere and hunt excellent LE units every year or 2!
I can honestly see why most Wyo res are skeptical about a pref pt system because it DOES NOT WORK for Wyo sheep and moose. There are so few tags issued, few hunters that cycle through the program....and so many more applicants that increase each year compared to the number of tags issued. Believe me, this is not the case with Wyo deer, elk, and antelope!
Before being so closed minded about a system you really need to look at the numbers. The numbers don't lie and I am very sorry if you aren't open enough to changing something that will improve you, your family, and your hunting buddies odds of drawing fantastic tags! Please take a closer look at the numbers I have posted. Just remember these are the odds for about the worse muley draw odds in the entire state. Other LE units you would be guaranteed tags to hunt every year or 2 with some sort of point system!
102 is close to the toughest unit in Wyo to draw and you would have 100% chance of drawing it in 12 years. There is a very good chance you could draw it sooner than 12 years. Your odds are close to 0 of ever drawing that tag without a pt system.
To answer your question in regard to less than max pref pt applicants: On average there are 300 res tags issued in 102 each year. There has been an average increase of 1,000 new applicants every 5 years. This means on average every year there has been an increase of 200 new applicants.
Year 12 everyone w/max pts will have drawn 102 tags. Some guys w/max pts drew it year 1 while others will be guaranteed to draw by year 12. Year 13 every person w/1 pt less than max and chunk of people w/2 less than max pts would be guaranteed 100% to draw 102 tags. If you want me to send you these numbers please email me. There are 300 tags issued and an average of 200 new applicants/year so it wouldn't take long to cycle all applicants through the system.
If you ask me, I'd be pretty excited about knowing that I could draw a 102 tag guaranteed in 12 or less years w/a pref pt system. Some guys w/max pts will draw year 1 and every year your odds get better....rather than getting worse w/out a pt system! Does that make any sense to you? If not, you may want to look at my 2 posts above!
Without pts your odds are deteriorating every year...they will soon be close to 4% draw odds with the increase in applicants. The last time I checked 4% means 4 guys out of 100 will draw tags! Right now they are just over 8 in 100.
If you wanted to apply for great units elsewhere in Wyo you would be guarantteed 100% of drawing those tags every other or every 2 years w/a pt system. I have a feeling most Wyo res would be pretty excited knowing they would be guaranteed LE tags every 1 to 3 years in many of the best units in the state!
A 50:50 pref pt system is also an option and a pretty good compromise between the 2 systems. It gives everyone and their dog a chance of drawing half the tags and the other half are issued/rewarded to the guys that have relentlessly tried to apply for tags without luck for years. The 50% pref pt pool also eliminates guys that have already drawn a tag and sends them to the back of the line (in the 50% max pt pool). It takes twice as long for 50/50 applcants to cycle but many guys believe this is a pretty fair system for those just starting out and those that have applied for the same tag for years.
Believe me, I was SO excited when Wyo instituted a pref pt system for nonres and would really like res to have the same great opportunity to draw le tags on a regular basis! I have drawn WAY more tags the past 5 years w/pref pts than I did in 25 years as a Wyo res. I have studied in detail the res vs nonres draw odds and statistics...believe me resident draw odds would be WAY better than nonres w/a pt system.
I can't really understand your thinking...."I wont be disappointed if I never draw one of the LE deer units in Wyoming." There are a lot of Wyo residents that would be pretty excited knowing they will draw a 102 tag in less than 12 years or can apply elsewhere and hunt excellent LE units every year or 2!
I can honestly see why most Wyo res are skeptical about a pref pt system because it DOES NOT WORK for Wyo sheep and moose. There are so few tags issued, few hunters that cycle through the program....and so many more applicants that increase each year compared to the number of tags issued. Believe me, this is not the case with Wyo deer, elk, and antelope!
Before being so closed minded about a system you really need to look at the numbers. The numbers don't lie and I am very sorry if you aren't open enough to changing something that will improve you, your family, and your hunting buddies odds of drawing fantastic tags! Please take a closer look at the numbers I have posted. Just remember these are the odds for about the worse muley draw odds in the entire state. Other LE units you would be guaranteed tags to hunt every year or 2 with some sort of point system!
BuzzH
Long Time Member
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- 6,375
jims,
It wont be a 100 percent preference, so it will take longer than 12 years for everyone that wants to hunt 102 draw. It will likely be, at best, a 75-25 split for preference/random.
Plus, I still dont believe that you are considering point creep with LE deer permits. Its going to happen, I can assure you, because WY doesnt have that many LE deer and elk units.
I agree with you on the antelope, where a lot of permits are issued...deer and elk...I'm not sold.
The reason I stated before is why...as people get deeper and deeper into point systems, they shift how and where they apply (point creep).
Its also not fair for you to look at the NR system as "proof" that a resident system will work the same way. For starters, theres a tiered fee structure for NR's. That changes the draw odds a lot, by itself. Plus the cost of the NR points compared to the cheapy fees paid by residents for points. Every swinging richard that ever thought they might hunt will want to get in on the ground floor of points.
I'll agree that a point system will assure you ONE tag like 102 in a lifetime...but that will be the one and only shot you get. Further, there will be many, many people that have 1 less than max points, many more will have 2 less than max, etc. hunters without max points and wanting to hunt 102 are going to wait way longer than 12 years to draw. I bet some will wait closer to 30 years with even 2 points less than max.
My point is that I dont believe its worth creating a preference or modified preference system for antelope, deer, and elk tags when you are only really assuring the maximum point holders a tag after 12-15 years of applying. Those with less than max are really up against it...their wait is going to be substantially longer.
Sure, you'll cycle through the antelope, you'll cycle through the marginal elk and deer LE units...but big deal, the odds arent that bad of drawing without any type of system in those areas anyway.
I'm following your math...that isnt the problem, I did pretty well with college level statistics.
I just dont believe you're being completely truthful with how the distrubution of hunters will shake out when we're 5-6 years down the preference point road.
I could be wrong, but I've seen the same thing play out time and time again in other states. I understand and play the points game myself...been doing it for 12 years.
It wont be a 100 percent preference, so it will take longer than 12 years for everyone that wants to hunt 102 draw. It will likely be, at best, a 75-25 split for preference/random.
Plus, I still dont believe that you are considering point creep with LE deer permits. Its going to happen, I can assure you, because WY doesnt have that many LE deer and elk units.
I agree with you on the antelope, where a lot of permits are issued...deer and elk...I'm not sold.
The reason I stated before is why...as people get deeper and deeper into point systems, they shift how and where they apply (point creep).
Its also not fair for you to look at the NR system as "proof" that a resident system will work the same way. For starters, theres a tiered fee structure for NR's. That changes the draw odds a lot, by itself. Plus the cost of the NR points compared to the cheapy fees paid by residents for points. Every swinging richard that ever thought they might hunt will want to get in on the ground floor of points.
I'll agree that a point system will assure you ONE tag like 102 in a lifetime...but that will be the one and only shot you get. Further, there will be many, many people that have 1 less than max points, many more will have 2 less than max, etc. hunters without max points and wanting to hunt 102 are going to wait way longer than 12 years to draw. I bet some will wait closer to 30 years with even 2 points less than max.
My point is that I dont believe its worth creating a preference or modified preference system for antelope, deer, and elk tags when you are only really assuring the maximum point holders a tag after 12-15 years of applying. Those with less than max are really up against it...their wait is going to be substantially longer.
Sure, you'll cycle through the antelope, you'll cycle through the marginal elk and deer LE units...but big deal, the odds arent that bad of drawing without any type of system in those areas anyway.
I'm following your math...that isnt the problem, I did pretty well with college level statistics.
I just dont believe you're being completely truthful with how the distrubution of hunters will shake out when we're 5-6 years down the preference point road.
I could be wrong, but I've seen the same thing play out time and time again in other states. I understand and play the points game myself...been doing it for 12 years.
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