Give this post about Iraq a check/see

S

stickerpt

Guest
I received this in email. What do you think?
Right or wrong? I think right!

> Sixty-three years ago, Nazi Germany had overrun almost all of Europe
> and hammered England to the verge of bankruptcy and defeat, and had
> sunk more than four hundred British ships in their convoys between
> England and America for food and war materials.
>
> At that time the U.S. was in an isolationist, pacifist mood, and most
> Americans wanted nothing to do with the European or the Asian war.
> Then along came Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, and in outrage
> Congress unanimously declared war on Japan, and the following day on
> Germany, which had not yet attacked us. It was a dicey thing. We had
> few allies.
>
> France was not an ally, as the Vichy government of France quickly
> aligned itself with its German occupiers. Germany was certainly not
> an ally, as Hitler was intent on setting up a Thousand Year Reich in
> Europe. Japan was not an ally, as it was well on its way to owning
> and controlling all of Asia. Together, Japan and Germany had
> long-range plans of invading Canada and Mexico, as launching pads to
> get into the United States over our northern and southern borders,
> after they finished gaining control of Asia and Europe. America's
> only allies then were England, Ireland, Scotland, Canada, Australia, and Russia.
> That was about it. All of Europe, from Norway to Italy, except Russia
> in the east, was already under the Nazi heel.
>
> America was certainly not prepared for war. America had drastically
> downgraded most of its military forces after WWI and throughout the
> depression, so that at the outbreak of WW2, army units were training
> with broomsticks because they didn't have guns, and cars with "tank"
> painted on the doors because they didn't have real tanks. And a huge
> chunk of our navy had just been sunk or damaged at Pearl Harbor.
> Britain had already gone bankrupt, saved only by the donation of $600
> million in gold bullion in the Bank of England, that was actually the
> property of Belgium, given by Belgium to England to carry on the war
> when Belgium was overrun by Hitler (a little known fact). Actually,
> Belgium surrendered on one day, because it was unable to oppose the
> German invasion, and the Germans bombed Brussels into rubble the next
> day just to prove they could. Britain had already been holding out
> for two years in the face of staggering shipping loses and the
> near-decimation of its air force in the Battle of Britain, and was
> saved from being overrun by Germany only because Hitler made the
> mistake of thinking the Brits were a relatively minor threat that
> could be dealt with later, and first turning his attention to Russia,
> at a time when England was on the verge of collapse, in the late
> summer of 1940.
> Ironically, Russia saved America's butt by putting up a desperate
> fight for two years, until the U.S. got geared up to begin hammering
> away at Germany.
> Russia lost something like 24 million people in the sieges of
> Stalingrad and Moscow alone... 90% of them from cold and starvation,
> mostly civilians, but also more than a MILLION soldiers.
> Had Russia surrendered, Hitler would have been able to focus his
> entire war effort against the Brits, then America. And the Nazis
> could possibly have won the war.
> All of this is to illustrate that turning points in history are often
> dicey things. And now, we find ourselves at another one of those key
> moments in history.
> There is a very dangerous minority in Islam that either has, or wants
> and may soon have, the ability to deliver small nuclear, biological,
> or chemical weapons, almost anywhere in the world.
> The Jihad's, the militant Muslims, are basically Nazis in Kaffiyahs
> -- they believe that Islam, a radically conservative form of Wahhabi
> Islam, should own and control the Middle East first, then Europe, then
> the world. And that all who do not bow to their will of thinking
> should be killed, enslaved, or subjugated. They want to finish the
> Holocaust, destroy Israel, and purge the world of Jews. This is their
> mantra.
> There is also a civil war raging in the Middle East -- for the most
> part not a hot war, but a war of ideas. Islam is having its
> Inquisition and its Reformation, but it is not known yet which will
> win
> -- the Inquisitors, or the Reformationists.
> If the Inquisition wins, then the Wahhabis, the Jihadis, will control
> the Middle East, the OPEC oil, and the US, European, and Asian
> economies.
> The techno-industrial economies will be at the mercy of OPEC -- not an
> OPEC dominated by the educated, rational Saudis of today, but an OPEC
> dominated by the Jihad's.
> You want gas in your car? You want heating oil next winter? You want
> the dollar to be worth anything? You better hope the Jihad, the
> Muslim Inquisition, loses, and the Islamic Reformation wins.
> If the Reformation movement wins, that is, the moderate Muslims who
> believe that Islam can respect and tolerate other religions, and live
> in peace with the rest of the world, and move out of the 10th century
> into the 21st, then the troubles in the Middle East will eventually
> fade away, and a moderate and prosperous Middle East will emerge.
> We have to help the Reformation win, and to do that we have to fight
> the Inquisition, i.e., the Wahhabi movement, the Jihad, Al Qaeda and
> the Islamic terrorist movements. We have to do it somewhere. And we
> can't do it everywhere at once. We have created a focal point for the
> battle at a time and place of our choosing........in Iraq.
> Not in New York, not in London, or Paris or Berlin, but in Iraq, where
> we are doing two important things.
> 1) We deposed Saddam Hussein. Whether Saddam Hussein was directly
> involved in 9/11 or not, it is undisputed that Saddam has been
> actively supporting the terrorist movement for decades. Saddam is a terrorist.
>
> Saddam was a weapon of mass destruction, who was responsible for the
> deaths of probably more than a million Iraqis and two million
> Iranians.
>
> 2) We created a battle, a confrontation, a flash point, with Islamic
> terrorism in Iraq. We have focused the battle. We are killing bad
> people, and the ones we get there we won't have to get here. We also
> have a good shot at creating a democratic, peaceful Iraq, which will
> be a catalyst for democratic change in the rest of the Middle East,
> and an outpost for a stabilizing American military presence in the
> Middle East for as long as it is needed.
> World War II, the war with the German and Japanese Nazis, really began
> with a "whimper" in 1928. It did not begin with Pearl Harbor.
> It began with the Japanese invasion of China. It was a war for
> fourteen years before America joined it. It officially ended in
> 1945 -- a 17 year war -- and was followed by another decade of U.S.
> occupation in Germany and Japan to get those countries reconstructed
> and running on their own again ... a 27 year war.
> World War II cost the United States an amount equal to approximately a
> full year's GDP -- adjusted for inflation, equal to about $12 trillion
> dollars. WWII cost America more than 400,000 killed in action, and
> nearly 100,000 still missing in action.
> The Iraq war has, so far, cost the US about $160 billion, which is
> roughly what 9/11 cost New York. It has also cost about 3000 American
> lives, which is roughly the same as the lives that the Jihad snuffed
> on 9/11. But the cost of not fighting and winning WWII would have
> been unimaginably greater -- a world dominated by German Nazism and
> Japanese Imperialism.
> Americans have a short attention span, conditioned by 30 second sound
> bites, 60 minute TV shows, and 2 hour movies in which everything comes
> out okay.
>
> The real world is not like that. It is messy, uncertain,and sometimes
> bloody and ugly. Always has been, and probably always will be.
> The bottom line is that we will have to deal with Islamic terrorism
> until we defeat it, whenever that is. It will not go away if we
> ignore it.
> If the U.S. can create a reasonably democratic and stable Iraq, then
> we have an "England" in the Middle East, a platform, from which we can
> work to help modernize and moderate the Middle East. The history of
> the world is the clash between the forces of relative civility and
> civilization, and the barbarians clamoring at the gates. The Iraq war
> is merely another battle in this ancient and never-ending war. And
> now, for the first time ever, the barbarians are about to get nuclear
> weapons. Unless somebody prevents them.
>
> We have four options:
> 1. We can defeat the Jihad now, before it gets nuclear weapons.
> 2. We can fight the Jihad later, after it gets nuclear weapons (which
> may be as early as next year, if Iran's progress on nuclear weapons is
> what Iran claims it is).
> 3. We can surrender to the Jihad and accept its dominance in the
> Middle East, now, in Europe in the next few years or decades, and
> ultimately in America.
>
> 4. Or, we can stand down now, and pick up the fight later when the
> Jihad is more widespread and better armed, perhaps after the Jihad has
> dominated France and Germany and maybe most of the rest of Europe.
> It will, of course, be more dangerous, more expensive, and much
> bloodier.
>
> If you oppose this war, seriously consider the idea that your
> children, or grandchildren, may live in an Islamic America under the
> Mullahs and the Sharia, an America that resembles Iran today.
>
> The history of the world is the history of civilization clashes,
> cultural clashes. All wars are about ideas, ideas about what society
> and civilization should be like, and the most determined always win.
> Those who are willing to be the most ruthless always win. The
> pacifists always lose, because the anti-pacifists kill them.
> Remember, perspective is everything, and America's schools teach too
> little history for perspective to be clear, especially in the young
> American mind.
>
> The Cold war lasted from about 1947 at least until the Berlin Wall
> came down in 1989. Forty-two years. Europe spent the first half of
> the 19th century fighting Napoleon, and from 1870 to 1945 fighting Germany.
> World War II began in 1928, lasted 17 years, plus a ten year
> occupation, and the U.S. still has troops in Germany and Japan.
> World War II resulted in the death of more than 50 million people,
> maybe more than 100 million people, depending on which estimates you
> accept.
>
> The U.S. has taken more than 3,000 KIA in Iraq. The U.S. took more
> than 4,000 killed in action on the morning of June 6, 1944, the day of
> the Normandy Invasion to rid Europe of Nazism. In WWII the US
> averaged 2,000 KIA a week -- for four years. Most of the individual
> battles of WWII lost more Americans than the entire Iraq war has done so far.
>
> But the stakes are at least as high ... A world dominated by
> representative governments with civil rights, human rights, and
> personal freedoms ...
> or a world dominated by a radical Islamic Wahhabi movement, by the
> Jihad, under the Mullahs and the Sharia (Islamic law).
>
> It's difficult to understand why the American left does not grasp this.
> They favor human rights, civil rights, liberty and freedom, but
> evidently not for Iraqis.
>
> "Peace Activists" always seem to demonstrate here in America, where
> it's safe.
>
> Why don't we see Peace Activist demonstrating in Iran, Syria, Iraq,
> Sudan, North Korea, in the places that really need peace activism the
> most?
>
> This is interesting History. Please take time to read and understand.
>
> The liberal mentality is supposed to favor human rights, civil rights,
> democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc., but if the Jihad wins,
> wherever the Jihad wins, it is the end of civil rights, human rights,
> democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc. Americans who oppose the
> liberation of Iraq are coming down on the side of their own worst
> enemy.
 
Not badly writen but it says the same old thing, when we won the war with Germany and Japan the war was won, we've occupied Iraq for 4 years and still haven't won so this is a totally different deal but we're fighting it the old way . it also says we should want freedom for the Iraqis but fails to say why they're special and deserve our affection while other more suppressed people don't. articles like this from the right wing are just more of the old make lemonade deal over and over, it isn't working anymore as you saw in November.
 
I'm supposed to suck up right wing propaganda like a Hoover deluxe or I'm negative? have you looked at all the new post you guys have crying gloom and doom about the dems? we've had 6 years to form an opinion on Bush and the war and most Americans are negative, please find a cure for your cranial-rectal inversion. I'm not negative at all, I have max points going into the '07 draws for a bunch of hunts in 5 states and Bush and his cronies have their hats in their hands. things look good.
 
that might be the best way to some up the exact way that I believe the truth is. Dude remember..... we still have bases in germany! WOW I cannot believe how fickle we are today we are beat run run run. I think a historical perspective is exactly what we need. I am a history teacher, early american to beexact have been for 8 years, and people just don't get it. Gloom and doom will happen if we are not moderate dude. And that means Reid won't get his relieve the president of commander and chief duties agenda passed, and Nancy and teddy and rest won't get there gentle why can't we talk this out legislation passed either. Biggest problem today no one standing up and saying I will sacrifice, everyone is to concerned about their home suv latte and retierment to do that. I am so sick of breaking news being so slanted.... There are no statesmen anymore. Washington said in his farwell address somehting to the affect " do not let you political party loyalty tear apart the nation.
 
"...when we won the war with Germany and Japan the war was won, we've occupied Iraq for 4 years and still haven't won so this is a totally different deal but we're fighting it the old way . it also says we should want freedom for the Iraqis but fails to say why they're special and deserve our affection while other more suppressed people don't."

Like Festus said, we are still in Germany (what, some 60+ years now)?. We are still in Japan...same amount of time. We are still in So. Korea since the early 50's. We are still in the Balkans. Okinawa. Phillipines. Spain. England. Scotland. I'm sure we're missing just a few more where America has a military presence.

I'll reiterate, I thought it was sheer ignorance we took Iraq in the first place. Now that we are there, I would think having another stable government in the ME would be very desirous. If it takes 10 years to establish that, then our future will be better off. IMHO. After all, remember, we are still in the Balkans, nursemaiding cranky europeans and muslims there. Our presence in Japan and Korea keeps the Chinese from jumping Taiwan, which is a very strategic piece of real estate.

Its more about your lefty touchy-feelies there, dude. There are vast think tanks out there that are probably 2 or 3 jumps ahead of any of our pathetic ramblings vis a vis this board. There have been ever since the USSR went tango-uniform. Our cold war win over them is starting to appear a bit Pyrrhic BTW. I knew as soon as they fell that their nuclear programs were on the auction block. What fundy whack-job or Sharia nut case wouldn't want a couple of those weapons? Russia and China were heavily vested in the ME, especially Iraq and Iran whereas we were more involved with UAE states and the immediate Gulf Region. We didn't make any friends when we invaded Iraq...either time.

The crux here is are we in or out? Some want us to retreat and pull the hole in over us. Will never happen. There are dynamics out there that will never see the light of day, yet probably do more to dictate our policies than we will ever be privy to. I'll agree we have our saddle on something jittery, but we just need to hook the spurs in belly band, and rough break the damn thing. I just don't think we can leave at this point, cuz getting back on may be harder than before...and we would probably have to get back on if we want any stability and, like we have done else where, establish and MAINTAIN a presence.
 
I'm a republican so I'm certainly not letting party loyalty get in my way. I see it as common sense, while I don't think the dems have all the answers the republicans have spent the last 6 years proving they don't. if you want to shake your pom poms and root for Bush and the war go ahead be my guest, I just want what's best for the country ego aside and like most Americans that's admitting when you've srewed up. you call it cut and run, we call it cut your losses. I find it entertaining after the thumping your boys took in November because of the war you still have the nerve to say those of us who think this war was a mistake are nut job liberal wacko's out of the main sream thinking. pull your head out and you'll see who's the sniveling minority trying to sell their slant like a used car salesman in a cheap suit. carry on you amuse me.
 
The German and Japanese people and cultures have absolutely nothing in common with the rag heads, thinking we can beat them deal with them and occupy them like we did with these other people is what got us in this mess. every other country who's tried to do what we've tried to do in that region has had the same results, failure. everyone else incuding Bush SR. was smart enough to figure that out 15 years ago.
 
The Germans and the Japanese we bombed into submission. In these days and times, bedwetting, handwringing liberal pogues don't want us doing that.

Drop a MOAB on Al Sadrs' crib. And if another cleric or fundy nutjob steps in, bomb his ass too. They will start coming around. Just like Germany and Japan did. Oh thats right. We can't. We might make them hate us.

I stand here amazed.

Sing with me 'dude. Hold my hand and let me see you feel it!

KUMBAYA



Kum ba yah, my Lord, Kum ba yah, Kum ba yah, my Lord, Kum ba yah Kum ba yah, my Lord, Kum ba yah Oh Lord, Kum ba yah.

Someone's singing Lord, Kum ba yah, Someone's singing Lord, Kum ba yah Someone's singing Lord, Kum ba yah Oh Lord, Kum ba yah.

Someone's laughing Lord, Kum ba yah, Someone's laughing Lord, Kum ba yah Someone's laughing Lord, Kum ba yah Oh Lord, Kum ba yah.

Someone's weeping Lord, Kum ba yah, Someone's weeping Lord, Kum ba yah Someone's weeping Lord, Kum ba yah Oh Lord, Kum ba yah.

Someone's praying Lord, Kum ba yah Someone's praying Lord, Kum ba yah Someone's praying Lord, Kum ba yah Oh Lord, Kum ba yah.
 
So if what you're doing isn't working just keep doing it ? Iraq is a wreck but given time it'll fix it's self ? or do we spend enough money and blood to wear them down? those people have been fighting since the dawn of time but you'll set 'em strait and you'll be the one singing Kumbaya with them not me. I wish you luck you're going to need it.
 
"So if what you're doing isn't working just keep doing it ? Iraq is a wreck but given time it'll fix it's self ?"

As mentioned above, we didn't play patty-fingers in WWII. We "rained hell from above."

"or do we spend enough money and blood to wear them down? those people have been fighting since the dawn of time but you'll set 'em strait and you'll be the one singing Kumbaya with them not me."

I'll tell you exactly what I'd do, dude. Not that it matters to you or to any politician. I'd drop leaflets on one of the current hot spots saying if insurgent activity did not cease and desist, The B-52's would be flying over with a little more than paper. If that didn't work, I'd pick another hot spot. same-same. Believe me, as ignorant as you may think these "ragheads" are, they know enough about the 21st century to know that the misogynists that are dictating policy are killing them by proxy. Most of them are modern enough to know that they are dying for a few fundies that don't give a damn about them.

Peace through superior firepower. Well worn adage, but never more true than now.
 
Again with the " it's so simple " I have no love for rag heads but the hard facts are you have to kill what bad ones you can without hurting the innocent then make what peace you can with the rest. or kill every last one, meaning genocide. their mindset and tactics are beyond our conventional wisdom but those like you think you can intimidate them. good luck, they're NUT'S...haven't you picked up on that? they live for revenge, their culture is built around it so by killing one all you do is give the rest a purpose .the plan to bomb whoever you'ld like wherever you like might sound like a simple answer but it's stupid. it won't work and it won't happen so back to reality. what you're advocating would be the start of WWIII and we're a super power but not the only one, right now the rag heads are probably more popular than we are around the world so keep that in mind when you think we're beyond reproach. we don't know how to deal with these people, so far all we've learned is what not to do.
 

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