Gov sheep tag walks!!

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
10,549
So, apparently the dwr has now acknowledged what we all knew. Tristate is a flaming idiot! The facts, the ram was shot, on the nebo, by gov tag holder, out of rotation. Apparently, staffing changes at dwr are to blame? Wlh did call a southern biologist to ask about a central hunt. The dwr regrets their incompetance.

Tri, everything you said, was wrong. I guess from now on the precident is ask a random dwr biologist and his answer now trumps written law. Im sure no one loses a job, no one is suspended. We can now all look forward to this head mount at the expo, and all the fanboys can wet themselves. As for the sportsmans tag owner, i would love to see a lawsuit, seems you were defrauded. I for one am disgusted, but barely suprised, ive lived in this state my whole life, the mafia is more transparent!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Prepare for Tri to twist this around to make it look like he was right all along. And I wouldn't be surprised if he has known this for some time being their taxidermist and all.
 
I still dont understand why wlh would call a southern biologist if they didnt know the rule. By calling doesnt that mean they know there is one? Otherwise they would just go kill it. Why do i feel like wlh knew what they were doing all along, including the phantom phone call. If there was one, there is a biologist who better be "reasigned"

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Actually Hossblur if you knew how to read you could see everything I said was right. All I ever proclaimed on that last thread was I know nothing which is just as much as the rest of yall know.

So did the DWR release a written statement saying this that you can post up here or is it just more " accourding to my friend" or "rumor has it"?



Do yall guys really think the only mistake on the DWR's side was having an employee tell them it was OK?
 
Ya, we can all read.

As for the dwr, no, no one expected anything. Tri, we in Utah expect the dwr to continue to whore itself to the highest bidder. We expect the WHL, and Rulon Jones of the world to do what they damn well please, and the dwr to be Marty McFly. We expect a cancerous special interest group to slowly take control of wildlife in this state. No, tri, and elk, i expected nothing less. Hope the fan boys and groupies get that tingle down their legs at the expo this year at WLH booth. Hey sportsmans tag holder, HOW'D THAT TASTE?

Lastly, we never, ever have to listen to the groupies tell us there is no evidence to back up this guide doing shady, illegal crap. Your right, he dont block roads, or down trees, they just poach. They knew there was a rule, or they wouldnt have "called" to start with.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Hossblur that has to be the funniest post on these sheep threads yet. How would anyone believe a person knows something who writes this.

"As for the dwr, no, no one expected anything. Tri, we in Utah expect the dwr to continue to whore itself to the highest bidder."


Its like watching a lunatic just bark anything and everything out of his pie hole. Crazy is funny. Desperate, ignorant, crazy is a really special show.
 
Tri-

"we in Utah expect the dwr to continue to whore itself to the highest bidder."

That is a very true statement. This is how it feels to be an average sportsman in Utah. Hossblur is reflecting the sentiment that 200,000 sportsman have felt at one point, most of us currently. So yeah, I'm inclined to believe him. I'd prefer to read about it somewhere, but as it currently stands, his word is all I have to go on...

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
Theres a letter posted from dwr on utah wildlife forum

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
I would bet if this was the sportsmen tag that did this he would be hung, but since money is the driving factor nothing was going to happen.

I just called the northern biologist to see if I could hunt the henry mountains this year with my general season tag and he said it was okay. Its going to be a fun one.
 
It sure seems like they "got away with one" by pulling a fast-one on the fish n game.

This kind of stuff shouldn't ever happen and it makes me sick!

They stole that ram from another hunter. That's for sure.

The wholesale commercialization of hunting is hurting the sport but it's going to be hard to get all the feathers back in the pillow!

Zeke
 
This is so wrong, a person is required to "know" the law for their tag. Like above if this was an "average" joe, complete opposite would have happened and they'd be in hot water.

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
 
Deep down I think we all knew how this would play out.

It would be entertaining for about 200 people to call the northern office and ask if they could hunt the Paunsaugaunt or Henrys for deer.
 
The whole thing sucks. I don't have all the answers for what should or should not happen but it sucks. The sportsman tag holder (or whatever you call the one who actually drew the tag that allowed them to hunt Nebo) is of course the real loser here. There is no guarantee he/she would have killed that ram but they didn't even have a fair chance.

But beyond that everyone loses. WLH is now lowered in people's book and has lost respect. The whole idea of selling these tags takes another hit. DWR is in the toilet and has lost respect. The lady that shot the ram can't feel great about it now either. But most of all there was a true trophy taken under questionable circumstances that can never be looked at in the light that it should be (by some anyway). It will be the new state record but there will be those who dispute that forever.

I've watched a few videos of this lady hunting and I am impressed by her apparent drive and enthusiasm. She doesn't appear to be just a collector like some more affluent hunters are. It looks like she works her tail off and shoots damn well. Am I envious of her position in life that allows her to hunt all over the world? I admit that I am. I know nothing about how they got to be in that position but I hope it was earned. Should she have known the rule? Yes but I bet a lot of guided hunters do not know the rules and rely on the guide to do the right thing. Should her guide have known? Absolutely. There is no excuse for that. Should DWR be held accountable? You betcha. Is it the way the world goes around? Sadly, yes it is too often.
 
Actually, it will be interesting if Boone and Crockett would let the ram in the books if they learned about the circumstances surrounding it. Yes she gets to keep it, but it was taken outside a legal area for her tag, so maybe no entry...food for thought. Either way a shame!
 
>Actually, it will be interesting if
>Boone and Crockett would let
>the ram in the books
>if they learned about the
>circumstances surrounding it. Yes
>she gets to keep it,
>but it was taken outside
>a legal area for her
>tag, so maybe no entry...food
>for thought. Either way
>a shame!

I bet Justin is praying for a 179-7/8 net score....



CtmQb2IVIAA94LJ.jpg
 
Its official. Talked to very nice and helpful guy at main office. He tracked down the particulars for me. The letter on utah wildlife is official, they are working on getting it out on their website.

Agree with the others and what they have said. Except Tri, but i think thats a given for all of us.

WLH, is on the hook for this, 100%. How they slid is beyond comprehension. Seems she should share some blame as well, but in the end she has hired WLH on numerous occasions, she must have trusted him. She should cancel the check on his fees.

Tri, we will now wait for your apology to Monty Burns, who was 100% accurate.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Howdy,

Now I am not saying this is how it happened but I would like yall to answer this question.

Let's say you draw the sportsman sheep tag in 2017. The tag is mailed to your house with documentation inside that says you can hunt the Nebo. This doesn't really jive with what you remember so you check the proclamation. It states you can kill a ram on the nebo. You are still apprehensive so what would you do? You call the DWR. Now no one in the head office knows because trust me I have called them for info before and I have NEVER gotten an answer to a question from them. So you call a biologist you know for the state. He tells you go hunt the Nebo. Now you have three resources from the DWR telling you its OK to hunt the Nebo. Now you don't have access to the actual printed laws and you don't know how to find them using the internet but you have THREE DWR resources telling you go hunt the Nebo. Are you some type of scum when you go do it?
 
Tricky Tripster,

Good question. Here in Utah Written permission is what should have been done. If I was WLH, and I KNEW I cant hunt there, but I call and ask someone if I Could and he says yes, GET WRITTEN PERMISSION. Now its all a "HE SAID SHE SAID" thing and opens up a can of worms.

Also, has WLH asked you to quit digging the whole to china? Because you are pretty dang close.
 
Ignorance is bliss! When you are working for a client, whether it is as a guide or auto repair or electrical or taxes or anything, then you had better know the law. I find it very difficult that a professional guide couldn't find this law. When it has been posted multiple time on one of these threads covering the issue.

What I believe happened was the guide had found or knew there was a large/potential state record ram on an area he couldn't hunt. So like a child looking for the answer they wanted to hear kept looking/asking until they got the answer they wanted to hear.

I understand your defense for WLH, however just because no charges have been filed does not make it ok.
 
In this instance Tristate I would say you are not scum at all for going hunt it. It is very clear to me that you are a man who is not afraid to stand up to the masses, which I respect as it takes a certain type. But that being said, now keep in mind all I know is what I have read on here, it is hard for me to believe that they didn't know that this was the year for the sportsman tag. Opening time for hunting here actually started at 11:00 am. Now everyone knows that you are best off being in the field before light. When I called and asked the game warden if I can bring my bow into the field before then just so I can glass all morning and not have to make the hike back to my truck would that be fine (The reason for the phone call is because I knew that this was very potentially illegal). He tells me that it would be fine as they wouldn't be looking to enforce that unless I was making an active attempt to hunt with my bow before opening time. But still, I know that if I was to get caught with my bow in the field I am liable for my actions and for knowing the laws put in place. By anyone's mind I believe that it is fully justified for me to get fined. Obviously this is a much smaller issue than harvesting a highly sought after sheep in a hard to get unit but the point is still the same. It seems like even though they were told they could hunt there, a guide service most likely knew they shouldn't. It seems they must have felt that because someone told them they could, now they can. I completely understand the point of view you are taking (although maybe a bit more hostile and condescending than one should need to be) about the fact that if you don't know whats happened then you shouldn't make rash aggressive statements but most people would find it hard to believe that a guide service wouldn't know the rules applied to this situation beforehand.
 
So the DNR should pay big on this one I feel, Maybe they should surrender some expo tags to pay for the damages. At the end of the day what I know is that I wouldn't call a south cache biologist to look for information on a boulder mtn tag. So I find that kind of odd on WLH's part.
 
Just to give some of you guys and idea of HOW STUPID and WRONG this is, here is an example I had with the Springville DWR at the end of September.

As some of you have seen, I shot an elk on the Wasatch extended hunt on Sept 20th. It was a nice bull, 6x5, scored roughly 275. Well, in all the excitement, I notched my tag and came home, did a Euro mount on him and and cut up the meat and all. Well, at the end of September, I was going through my wallet and going over the tags for my sons deer hunt, wifes deer hunt, sons cow elk hunt, and my deer hunt. Well, I noticed my deer tag as notched and not my elk tag. So I immediately called the DWR office and explained what had happened. They told me to come in, sign an affidavit and then they would notch my elk tag, and issue me a new dder tag, but to wait for an officer to do it. SO I did, and I explained to him what had happened, showed him pics on my phone, text messages, and social media of my elk. There were even pics of my notching my tag. He was cool, went to get me some papers to sign, and all would be good. Well, later the lady came out and said they wanted to just re issue me a tag and I dont need to sign any papers. OK, all is well, right? Well, the lady got a little pissy with me and threatened to have an officer to issue me a ticket. I made the comment that it doesnt pay to be honest. She didnt like that any better and wanted to issue me a ticket for poaching. Anyways, after about 45 minutes of ciaos, it was resolved.

This is nothing compared to the Nebo ram fiasco, and they got away with it. Being shady and dishonest gets you alot of stuff with the dwr. Trying to be honest and upfront almost got me a ticket.
 
Tri, in the state of utah you have to have written permission to hunt on private land, a phone call doesnt work. They obviously documented a phone call, or how do we know it happened. If WLH really didnt know, they had months to talk to the CENTRAL UNIT boss, or even better, the CHIEF in the main office. They talked to me today, and i didnt pay a gazillion for the tag. A "call" to a random biologist(not law enforcement?) Hundreds of miles away? Sorry man, this is exactly what it looks like.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Quote: "Theres a letter posted from dwr on utah wildlife forum"

What is the "Utah Wildlife Forum" that you refer to?

Link?
 
Hi Shelly,

We appreciate your concern on this Nebo ram topic and are happy to clarify the situation. To give a little background, rule R657-41-2(1)(k)(vi) states that the ?Central Mountain/Nebo/Wasatch West sheep unit is open to the Sportsmen permit holder on even number years and open to the Statewide Conservation permit holder on odd number years.? Because this is an even year, the statewide conservation permit holder was not permitted to hunt bighorn sheep on the Nebo unit. However, the statewide conservation permit (governor?s tag) holder did harvest a bighorn ram on the Nebo unit.

Shortly before the harvest, a photo with scenery that looked like the Nebo unit was posted to social media. Within minutes, the DWR reached out to the outfitter in an attempt to prevent the harvest, but the ram had already been killed. At that point, the case was turned over to law enforcement. As you can imagine, this is a sensitive issue with an associated investigation, so please forgive us for not being able to comment on it publicly until now.

Because the aforementioned rule affects only two people per year, we have historically opted to not include it in the guidebook. Instead, we send letters to both hunters, explaining the rule. Unfortunately, because of a personnel change this year, we cannot find proof that we sent an explanatory letter to the statewide conservation permit holder.

To further complicate the issue, the outfitter who was planning to guide the statewide conservation permit holder asked a Division employee if the Nebo was a legal unit for the client to hunt. That employee does not work in the region that oversees the Nebo unit and was unaware of the rule that requires the two hunters to alternate hunting years. Consequently, the employee told the outfitter that he believed it was legal.

The findings above came to light during a recent law enforcement investigation that was turned over to the county prosecutor. Because the Division did not accurately communicate the rule, the county prosecutor declined to prosecute the case.

We regret this situation and have taken a hard look at how we distribute information to hunters and to our own employees. We are working to ensure this type of incident does not happen again in the future. Hopefully, this clears up some rumors and misinformation out there. Feel free to share this letter on the forums you alluded to or with any concerned parties.
 
Tri- Imagine you do all of that, and then when you show up to the Nebo unit, WLH has this giant ram in the back of their truck, even though you knew the Sportsman's tag was supposed to get to hunt it, not the Governor's tag...

The guy who got the THREE DWR resources is not WLH in this case, it's the legitimate Sportsman's Tag holder. WLH IS the type of scum to have done this.

He blindfolds trophy bucks after all...

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
Hossblur,

Go back to my post and read please. Notice I stated in that hypothetical that the state sent a rules letter saying the Nebo could be hunted plus a paper state issued proclamation stating the Nebo could be hunted. That's TWO forms of written consent from the state. You also want to say that the person he asked was the wrong person. Why? He still works for the state. Maybe that's the only guy he could get a hold of.

Two weeks ago I contacted the central office and spoke to three different people regarding a question I had about the cougar draw. NONE OF THEM KNEW THE ANSWER. Two of them literally didn't know the year it was and were trying to direct me to 2014 information.

Now if you want to say the state has fouled this up I can probably agree with you. But to paint a citizen as a criminal who gets away with it when you don't know all of the possibilities and scenarios is irresponsible.


I noticed the story on here about the elk tag and the muley tag. Could they have ticketed him? YOU BET! SHould they? Hell no. Honest mistake with a person who honestly tried to clear the air. I'm glad they didn't ticket him. But good judgement with an honest mistake may have been the same case here. Don't be mad that the DWR decided to let the hunter off. Nobody tried to hide anything from the DWR. Nobody says the hunter didn't get a talking too. Nobody knows if the DWR actually threatened to nail the parties at first. But just like in the end of the elk story, reasonable people behaved reasonably.
 
Thanks for the letter MBogo-

It basically says, "we didn't do our job correctly, the outfitter was given bad information, so, they get off".

I sure hope they stop printing the proclamation next year so we can all hunt wherever we want to, and afterwards prosecutors won't be able to do anything about it.

If I had the Sportsman's tag, I'd be getting a lawsuit put together against the DWR. "Staffing changes" and apparent misinformation from an individual not qualified to comment on the Nebo unit cost that guy the hunt he was entitled to with that tag. Not that this particular ram would have been taken by him, but at least it would have been there to find and harvest...

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
>Hi Shelly,
>
>We appreciate your concern on this
>Nebo ram topic and are
>happy to clarify the situation.
>To give a little background,
>rule R657-41-2(1)(k)(vi) states that the
>?Central Mountain/Nebo/Wasatch West sheep unit
>is open to the Sportsmen
>permit holder on even number
>years and open to the
>Statewide Conservation permit holder on
>odd number years.? Because this
>is an even year, the
>statewide conservation permit holder was
>not permitted to hunt bighorn
>sheep on the Nebo unit.
>However, the statewide conservation permit
>(governor?s tag) holder did harvest
>a bighorn ram on the
>Nebo unit.
>
>Shortly before the harvest, a photo
>with scenery that looked like
>the Nebo unit was posted
>to social media. Within minutes,
>the DWR reached out to
>the outfitter in an attempt
>to prevent the harvest, but
>the ram had already been
>killed. At that point, the
>case was turned over to
>law enforcement. As you can
>imagine, this is a sensitive
>issue with an associated investigation,
>so please forgive us for
>not being able to comment
>on it publicly until now.
>
>
>Because the aforementioned rule affects only
>two people per year, we
>have historically opted to not
>include it in the guidebook.
>Instead, we send letters to
>both hunters, explaining the rule.
>Unfortunately, because of a personnel
>change this year, we cannot
>find proof that we sent
>an explanatory letter to the
>statewide conservation permit holder.
>
>To further complicate the issue, the
>outfitter who was planning to
>guide the statewide conservation permit
>holder asked a Division employee
>if the Nebo was a
>legal unit for the client
>to hunt. That employee does
>not work in the region
>that oversees the Nebo unit
>and was unaware of the
>rule that requires the two
>hunters to alternate hunting years.
>Consequently, the employee told the
>outfitter that he believed it
>was legal.
>
>The findings above came to light
>during a recent law enforcement
>investigation that was turned over
>to the county prosecutor. Because
>the Division did not accurately
>communicate the rule, the county
>prosecutor declined to prosecute the
>case.
>
>We regret this situation and have
>taken a hard look at
>how we distribute information to
>hunters and to our own
>employees. We are working to
>ensure this type of incident
>does not happen again in
>the future. Hopefully, this clears
>up some rumors and misinformation
>out there. Feel free to
>share this letter on the
>forums you alluded to or
>with any concerned parties.

This right here pretty much sums up utah in my opinion lol. (Oops we messed up thanks for your money though)

-Cass
 
Tri, same answer i give my kids when they play "what if". What if a monkey flies out of my azz?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
The biggest issue I have is that everyone is saying the DWR let the hunter and the guide off. That is not what happened!

"The findings above came to light during a recent law enforcement investigation that was turned over to the county prosecutor. Because the Division did not accurately communicate the rule, the county prosecutor declined to prosecute the case."

As you can see from the letter, the DWR turned the matter over to law enforcement for investigation. That is what would happen in all poaching or potential poaching incidents. The investigation gathered all the facts they could on the matter. And it would appear that both the hunter and the guide cooperated in this process.

Now here is the important part so pay attention: "the county prosecutor declined to prosecute the case."

This doesn't mean that the DWR can't issue a citation for charges that would apply. I'm not an officer so I don't even know what those would be. BUT IT DOES MEAN, that the full brunt of a poaching case would not be applied. The County Prosecutor is not a judge, but they do get to make judgement calls as to whether or not a case would be won if it went to trial. In this situation, with ALL the details found out through the investigation the prosecutor felt that the case would not be won if it went to trial.

It was not the DWR who let the hunter and guide off. They followed appropriate procedure and referred the case to investigators and then to the County Prosecutor. That's what the DWR is supposed to do.
 
"To further complicate the issue, the outfitter who was planning to guide the statewide conservation permit holder asked a Division employee if the Nebo was a legal unit for the client to hunt. That employee does not work in the region that oversees the Nebo unit and was unaware of the rule that requires the two hunters to alternate hunting years. Consequently, the employee told the outfitter that he believed it was legal."

I can't prove it of course, but I think the outfitter knew of the rule but didn't get a letter in the mail stating such. So he does the next best thing and asks the janitor of another unit who tells him he "believed" it was legal. Bingo! The hunt is on.
 
>The biggest issue I have is
>that everyone is saying the
>DWR let the hunter and
>the guide off. That
>is not what happened!
>
>"The findings above came to light
>during a recent law enforcement
>investigation that was turned over
>to the county prosecutor. Because
>the Division did not accurately
>communicate the rule, the county
>prosecutor declined to prosecute the
>case."
>
>As you can see from the
>letter, the DWR turned the
>matter over to law enforcement
>for investigation. That is
>what would happen in all
>poaching or potential poaching incidents.
> The investigation gathered all
>the facts they could on
>the matter. And it would
>appear that both the hunter
>and the guide cooperated in
>this process.
>
>Now here is the important part
>so pay attention: "the county
>prosecutor declined to prosecute the
>case."
>
>This doesn't mean that the DWR
>can't issue a citation for
>charges that would apply.
>I'm not an officer so
>I don't even know what
>those would be. BUT
>IT DOES MEAN, that the
>full brunt of a poaching
>case would not be applied.
> The County Prosecutor is
>not a judge, but they
>do get to make judgement
>calls as to whether or
>not a case would be
>won if it went to
>trial. In this situation,
>with ALL the details found
>out through the investigation the
>prosecutor felt that the case
>would not be won if
>it went to trial.
>
>It was not the DWR who
>let the hunter and guide
>off. They followed appropriate
>procedure and referred the case
>to investigators and then to
>the County Prosecutor. That's what
>the DWR is supposed to
>do.


I believe, but could be wrong, that guides are licensed by dopl? Did the division file a complaint? Does anything happen to said employee? I cant argue that it was turned over, it was. But there is a sportsman tag holder who got screwed, did the division issue a tag for next year? Who was the prosecutor? Why is the division issuing a statement on a forum and not website? Last, in your heart of hearts, and you dont have to admit it here, do you really believe that the guide didnt know the rule, or that there was one? Why did he call? Why didnt he call the officer on the nebo? They had been scouting a lot more than one day. It is what it is, trying to hide it, or side step it is bs.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Has the guide guided the nebo since the rotation rule? If so he knew. I know that when i am curious about a building code in logan, i dont call the inspector in slc.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
I don't think any of us saw that one coming! $Talks!

My understanding is the guide should have known the rotation on Nebo and I think blaming a biologist is wrong.

That said, I still want to see the ram. I never got to see any pictures.

Dillon
www.dillonhoyt.com
 
>I don't think any of us
>saw that one coming! $Talks!
>
>
>My understanding is the guide should
>have known the rotation on
>Nebo and I think blaming
>a biologist is wrong.
>
>That said, I still want to
>see the ram. I never
>got to see any pictures.
>
>
>Dillon
>www.dillonhoyt.com

The Life tv, sportsmans channel, their instagram has them, both live ram, and dead.

Last, im done. I did leg work, i made the calls, i complained, it got swept away. I will complain to the WB, to at least make this rule iron clad, but since they are owned, i dont hold hope. Its just another sad episode in what has become the buisness of trophy hunting in Utah. Somehow im guessing their will be another "miscommunication" that takes place soon.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
That sucks! I've been following the other "train wreck" and must admit, the popcorn doesn't taste good....not good at all. I've got one of the 22 desert sheep tags here in NM and hired a friend of mine that I've known for 24+ years. This hunt is more about us being friends and getting to experience a "once in a lifetime" hunt together. We're "popping our cherry" together on sheep hunting and I couldn't be happier since I KNOW he isn't the type to cut legal corners. We've met other outfitters that will be involved at White Sands and everyone is in agreement that we'll help each other out to make sure we all get a decent chance at a nice ram. 4 tags this year on the Missile Range and there's been a total of 9 tags up to this year since deserts came off the "endangered" list here in NM. Everyone knows this is a special hunt and is treating it with the respect it deserves!

I know these special tags are what funds sheep restoration projects, but where does it end???? Just because you have money to buy your way through life isn't the answer. I'd be the first person to turn my guide in to G&F if he tried to break the law, even though he knows how special this is. We're drawing for a "mountain" in the hunt area and I damn sure won't "poach" a ram out from someone else if we see one...we'll be on the radio with the others guys to tell them about it!

Jesus! A sheep tag is once in a lifetime and I thank God I drew this year. Does the "average Joe" have a desert sheep on their wall? They don't and statistically never will. Why can't people just relish the fact that they drew the tag? I'll admit, I'm holding out for 168" so I can get my name in the book....who wouldn't? If I shoot a 150, does that make me a bad person? Nah, because there are few people to call me out LMAO!

Sorry to say, but I'm a native Texan, but ended up in NM after 26 years active duty. I've read about all the "pay to play" stuff in Utah, but Texas is worse. Guess that's the result of 98% of the state being private land. I do know there are people that go to your states (and my new home state) because they can't afford to hunt a home, so don't judge someone just because of their license plate! We all need to remember there are "working stiffs" like us that want to fulfill their dream of hunting "out west".

With that being said, I'm going sheep hunting! I'm a truly fortunate man to have drawn this tag and I'm sure it'll be a once in a lifetime hunt. As to the original intent, WLH should have been charged and should be pumped daylight under the jail. If anyone should know the law, it's the outfitter.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-14-16 AT 08:05PM (MST)[p]From Tribune article... "Last month, the Democratic Party tried to replace House candidate Jesse Garcia on the ballot after Garcia became ill, but the plan fell through because the party was given the wrong deadline by the elections office."

I guess incompetence by State officials is only a valid excuse for certain people.

Grizzly
 
Pookiebar,

Excellent post.


I find it interesting many want the outfitter buried under a jail for not knowing the law when he made two attempts with the state to play by the letter of the law and was unintentionally misled BY THE PEOPLE DISTRIBUTING THE LAW.
 
DWR did their job. They took it to the prosecutor. You'd love to know if that was because of the noise or trust issues. Maybe WLH never did the sheep hunt on a sporty/gov tag in a long time. Or he found truth in ignorance.

I bet it never happens again.

Grizzly wrote:
>> "All I ever proclaimed...was I know nothing" - Tristate 10/14/16

This is hysterical!

--------------------------
--------------------------
------------
I hunt, therefore I am.
Harvest the land.
Taking of the fallen lamb.
 
Tristate,

What is your deal? Its as though you have a huge chip on your shoulder. Someone that defensive and aggressive screams as though they have some self esteem issues going on. Be a nicer person man. I'm far from perfect but you are irrationally aggressive.
 
WestNDMuleys,

I think you should go back and read these sheep threads. There are men on here who want a man jailed for something the state has said they aren't going to prosecute, plus they don't even know the details of the case, BUT YOU THINK I HAVE A CHIP ON MY SHOULDER?????

I am probably overly aggressive at times but by no means irrational. You can use that however you wish to analyze my self esteem.
 
Tristate,

I guess I don't know enough about the situation but still it just seems like each comment is made with a lot of defensive remarks. I guess I have no idea on your self esteem, and truthfully that has nothing to do with this situation, I just feel that there are better ways to handle things. To each their own. My only viewpoint (and I am sure is somewhat from other peoples remarks towards you) is that when debating anything the more loud and aggressive you get the more loud and aggressive the other person will get. Nothing is accomplished this way.
 
WestNDMuleys,

I understand where you are coming from but I think you see this a lot more seriously than I see this. I in no way believe I will change these men's minds on here. Most of their problems are illogical and emotionally based. When I came to these threads it was the wild west. It was one thread after another of hatred. People attacking people they knew nothing about and people leaving who felt bullied. It isn't as bad as it used to be. These people have to realize now when they behave childishly there is someone here who will call it and them like it is. I don't hide behind a screen name and everyone knows where I live. Everything I tell these people is anything I would say right to their faces. They think a lot more than they used to before they just try and run a person into the ground. They may always be full of hate but at least now they know hateful public behavior won't become the norm.

I don't mess with these guys when they want to talk about their hunting adventures, equipment, family traditions, religion, etc.. But the minute they behave as illogical zealots we dance.
 
Pookie hit the nail on the head. You may not like the decision the prosecutor made, but he must be able to prove intent beyond a reasonable doubt. It doesn't matter what Hosblur emotions thoughts may be, it only matters what can be proved. Find out which county the Nebo unit is in and call the County attorney's office to complain.

This isn't to say dopl won't take some kind of administrative action, but if you look at who is on the board, I wouldn't expect any sanction.

You guys can call Triatate all the names ya want, but he had this one right from the beginning. Just because ya don't like the messagener doesn't mean he is wrong. Maybe I'm wrong but is "poaching" even a legal term in the Utah Code?
 
Gunnie,

That response tells me you must not be from utah. Utah is run like the mafia. Very few actions in gov are above board. We have a ton of long time "good ole boy" , crap, there is always the mormon thing(not bashing, but pointing out facts), and, juab is a rural county, with small budgets, getting in this one would be pricey.

Last, its always intetesting to see where these break out. Most, worry about ethical behavior, or doing the right thing. A minority, like to see what they can get away with. Your right, wlh found a discrepancy, and took adavantage of it, and i guess got away with it. But that seems to be an expanding strain in the trophy hunting world, "all that matters is inches". Might not be all trophy guys, but its an increasing number of them, and it seems to have infected the dwr. Good for wlh, they proved they are the most shady, disreputable, dirty(they could, and should have pointed out the "confusion" to the main office, not use it as a loophole), folks in the industry. Afterall, they got their inches!



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Sounds like you need to move and take up anti-hunting Hossblur.

By the way it would be pricey WITH NO RETURN.

Face it you a re bitter person who hates WLH. I don't know maybe he ran over your puppy or maybe you really are an anti-hunter or maybe you are just hung-up on someone being successful in this evil capitalist nation we live in but it is quite obvious you hate someone. It isn't based in logic. It's just good old fashioned childish hate. We got it. Hossblur hates people and thinks they should be prosecuted for no other reason than not getting an answer from the DWR office Hossblur would have gotten an answer from.

You don't care if they called that office and didn't get an answer. You don't care that which office they called isn't even a relevant or logical argument here. Don't let details or facts or the unknowns get in the way of a good ol' hate-a-thon.



Hate Hate Hate Hate Hate. You really don't have to type anything else. You have proved that hate will prevail.

You're in luck too. Because next year WLH will still be in business providing great legal and ethical outfitting to lots of customers. That's right. No matter how much hate you spew here a good business model will prevail.
 
>
>I don't mess with these guys
>when they want to talk
>about their hunting adventures, equipment,
>family traditions, religion, etc..
>But the minute they behave
>as illogical zealots we dance.
>

Why??
 
The da a said he cant prove intent, tri, didnt say anything about legal. He couldnt prove wlh knew or didnt. Tjete is a dead sheep, killed by wlh client on a unit the hunter wasnt supposed to hunt on. Thats not up for debate, hell you published the pic. Logic? Logic says if your not sure, you find the answer. This tag was bought early in year, wlh didnt wake up day before the hunt, and decide to ride up and check out the nebo, they had been watching this ram, most likely a year or more.
I run a licensed buisness in this state. I get checked. I deal with inspectors. I deal with the state. Me or any other contractor in the state are respinsible to follow the code. Calling an inspector 120 miles away dont matter. Word of mouth dont matter. Codes are codes, and as a PROFESSIONAL, licensed with the state, I am responsible. Thats the standard, it should be same for him, me, doyle, bobs plumbing. It is funny that your defense of wlh is that at best they are lazy and sloppy. Im sure they loooovvveee that you helped them out with a pic, and the "they half azzed their job" defense. Hate, yup, i hate that utah is becoming the european model, aristocracy doesnt have hunting regs. And guess what dude, your not aristocracy. Carry on my man, in fact call your buddy wade and try book a hunt next year, im sure they love you!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-17-16 AT 11:31AM (MST)[p]The county line goes southerly along the spine of the peaks of Nebo and makes a 90 degree turn east from the south peak (often referred to as Nebo) I don't know exactly where the ram was killed ( I understand it was killed on the east side in the basin between the south and north peaks) if it was killed in that basin then it most likely would may have been on the Utah county side. I haven't seen a pic that shows the exact spot of the kill but what I have seen, there's a good chance it was killed on the Utah county side. If it was , then that county would have a lot more resources available.
I see no way to make up for what has happened. But, I do feel that any outfitter who has accepted money from a client should be held equally accountable to obey and know the rules and the laws that govern that particular hunt.
 
I don't know what it's like in Utah, but where I come from the big time sheep guides spend a tremendous amount of time in the field ahead of the season. They ofen have cameras out too. In most units they have seen a good majority of the really outstanding rams and many go so far as to give them nicknames. They have photos and videos. They have a wide network of friends, subguides, sheep nuts feeding them information on big rams all the time. When they book one of these so-called governors tags they really step up their game and intensify their efforts. They want that client to kill the biggest and best. Their reputation and livelihood depends on it.

Now maybe in Utah nobody even shows up to hunt until opening day, but I doubt it. I'm willing to bet you a cup of coffee that WLH knew all about that ram months, if not years, before this season began. Now I don't know a anyone at WLH. I'm sure they are nice people. From their results I'd say they put out the effort. Same goes for Robyn Waldrip.

But I can't believe there wasn't some intentional shopping for a loophole in a regulation that WLH was well aware of.

I too find it interesting that they called a bio in another unit for legal advice. My local bio is a personal friend. I text him or call him about stuff all the time. But if I want to know what the law or regulation states I'm calling a game warden. And if it's that important I'm going to go as high up the chain as possible. Tri will say maybe they did and they didn't answer the phone. The gaping hole in that story is the bet I made above. I'm sure WLH didn't show up on the Nebo that morning and see that ram for the first time. They are too experienced for that. Tri's argument there is silly.

I'm not calling for a lynching of anyone. It is what it is. But if we're going to argue then at least don't be silly about it. The guide should have been, and likely was, fully aware a regulation exists and should have gone that mile to get a reliable interpretation.
 
Had a buisness consultant tell me once if you want the actual answer ask "why" 5 times.

Why is this happening?

1 Hunter: thought it was legal

2 Wlh: knew this ram was on closed unit

3 wlh: called wrong office, wrong employee

4 da wont prosecute, cant prove intent

5 ????

My guess is money, thats usually where it ends. Maybe department embarrassment. I dont know, but i know where it started, and where it is now aint close. In all honesty, i could deal witb "because i.....(dwr guy in charge if gov tag process) completely screwed up, we will not embarrass the hunter or guide, the buck stops here", at least it would be partially honest.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
But the letter doesn't say which County Prosecutor declined to pursue this. Or did I miss something?? Could be the Utah County Prosecutor who this was taken to.

What is with the obsession here kids? I get it a BIG mistake was made, but wow!!
 
Dwr site.

Utahs most prized tags.

Open the link, its for sportsmans tag. Dated Oct 14.

Read the story, and at the end it says the tag is good for longer dates, and for MOST areas. I wonder if there are closed areas? Guess i will call St. George and ask. I mean on the contact info page, the main office in slc is listed first, buttttt, first dont mean best. Yeah Tri, i HATE lists of contact info too.

Carry on man, perhaps you have more pics of more illegal kills you want to publish?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
>Had a buisness consultant tell me
>once if you want the
>actual answer ask "why" 5
>times.
>
>Why is this happening?
>
>1 Hunter: thought it was legal
>
>
>2 Wlh: knew this ram was
>on closed unit
>
>3 wlh: called wrong office, wrong
>employee
>
>4 da wont prosecute, cant prove
>intent
>
>5 ????
>
>My guess is money, thats usually
>where it ends. Maybe
>department embarrassment. I dont
>know, but i know where
>it started, and where it
>is now aint close.
>In all honesty, i could
>deal witb "because i.....(dwr guy
>in charge if gov tag
>process) completely screwed up, we
>will not embarrass the hunter
>or guide, the buck stops
>here", at least it would
>be partially honest.
>
>
#5 Could be that no one really gives a crap and they think they more important things to work on. Sheep's dead, WLH is a high fence hunting, no rules reading dumbass, now move on to the next monumental injustice in this world.
 
And thats how with 300million people, we get hillary and trump.

Had time to yank tri chain today sitting in waiting rooms. Reality, at least for me is simple.

The hunter seems to have done a lot of buisness with wlh, i doubt she questioned them.

Wlh, they knew. They knew how bad it looked for some average clown to kill a record sheep, while they were getting paid.

Sure would have been a class thing(ethical?) for wlh to call the state and alert them to the loophole in the system, so there wasnt an issue next year, when the average guy would be out of rotation. I know, that dont happen nowdays, in this i get mine world. Hell i would have even said good stuff about them here.

I also realize that in government, no one is ever responsible, yet another pipe dream thinking someone would step up.

So, i stick with my original post, it was dead on. Tri, as usual thanks for entertaining me when im bored, people mag sucks!

Sad that we have not only come to accept this kind of thing, but its now the norm.

Glad sportsman guy got a ram, pics would be cool. Need a Utah flag sticker?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
I'm fairly new to commenting on monster muleys but please people, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that tristate is a complete idiot that loves feeding off of you people, I'm begging you to quit feeding him, ignore him and he will soon go back to the rock he crawled out from, what he says means NOTHING!!!! This forum used to be a great read, don't let that fool ruin it anymore,,it's a free world let him voice his opinion, but PLEASE ignore it and he will soon find its not fun for him anymore and he will hopefully go away, I it's definitely worth a try!! Oneshot
 
It's 'just' a Stinkin Sheep!

The Buck I Take this Year out of My Unit/Hunt Area Will be 'just' a Buck!










[font color="blue"]She put a Big F.U. in My Future,Ya She's got a
way with Words[/font]
 
Elk, I see your point BUT this whole thing has Hilary Clinton written all over it!!! Meaning if this happened to the average joe would the penalty be the same??
I 1000% believe that money talks when it comes the Utah DWR !!!!!!!
 
Poor oneshot. You know not what you ask.

I like how Hossblur thinks calling the number he likes would have fixed this.

I have already told you last month I made a call to the central office with a question about the cougar draw. Out of three people NONE OF THEM KNEW THE ANSWER. Two of them thought the year was 2015! Why is it out of the question that all offices of the DWR are capable of making mistakes?
 
When the UDOW spoke to her She probably agreed to buy a tag or two equating to 300k+ at the 2017 Hunt Expo. This was called a "shakedown" gentlemen. It happens daily in police departments across the country. Ever seen Training Day?? The Hunt Expo pimps and UDR just solidified the first bidder/guest/attendee of the Tag Auction Dinner. LMAO.
 
Ya have to look at the facts without the emotion and the jealousy of it being an auction tag. Y'all have a chubby because this was a sheep. If this was a 25" buck killed under the same circumstance nobody would say jack. Just admit your mad for selfish reasons; it was a sheep, it was an auction tag, and most of us can't afford to hire WLH. Furthermore, your all calling it a loophole like they planned it ahead of time. If it was a true 'loophole' that implies it was legal. Didn't we hear all the same arguments about Doyle Moss a couple years back by the same posters. Just admit there is a tad bit of envy in the words spoken here.

Or ya can continue to believe in the Training Day corruption theory.
 
Never put in for sheep, my oil points are for moose. Dont play expo lottery. Do try sportsman tag. Had this happened, and the phone call went to big coord., in slc, then ya, most of this would be a rant. I am jealous, but only of the ammount of time she gets to spend afield, ill cop to that. Id rather have my two boys with me than wlh. And those two boys are the reason a fight this continued creap of corruption and elitism in the dwr. At 42, the changes, resulting in less oppurtunity for sportsmen, in my lifetime is shocking, i want something left for them. I dont want texas. So ya, its selfish, but not for why you think.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
So he was supposed to call the office that the other poster said he never got a straight answer from when he called regarding his sportsman tag??????????

That's your criteria for poached/not poached is what office got called?????????

You are willing to defame people over which office got called??????????

Just because the answer didn't come from the office you think it should come from you think this is all "corruption and elitism"?????? Is that what counts as logic for you?

By the way you don't know that he didn't call them. You just know that he got hold of someone somewhere else. ONE MORE THING YOU DON'T KNOW.


By the way did you realize you are getting voted as the worst first time poster on that other forum?

The boat sank and you are still screaming that the food was cold.
 
>Ya have to look at the
>facts without the emotion and
>the jealousy of it being
>an auction tag. Y'all have
>a chubby because this was
>a sheep. If this was
>a 25" buck killed under
>the same circumstance nobody would
>say jack. Just admit your
>mad for selfish reasons; it
>was a sheep, it was
>an auction tag, and most
>of us can't afford to
>hire WLH. Furthermore, your
>all calling it a loophole
>like they planned it ahead
>of time. If it was
>a true 'loophole' that implies
>it was legal. Didn't we
>hear all the same arguments
>about Doyle Moss a couple
>years back by the same
>posters. Just admit there is
>a tad bit of envy
>in the words spoken here.
>
>
>Or ya can continue to believe
>in the Training Day corruption
>theory.

I dont think anyone thinks, that I have read and I may have missed a few post, this is a loophole. ITS PURE BS. I I beg to differ again on the 25" buck thing. Illegal is illegal any way you look at it. If its a 200" buck or a fork horned buck, its illegal.

I think because they spent so much money on the tag, thats why there should be more scrutiny. This tag was bought in the name of conservation! But yet they dont have to follow the same rules as the rest of us, in the name of conservation? Interesting take there Gunnie, but I disagree 100%.
 
>So he was supposed to call
>the office that the other
>poster said he never got
>a straight answer from when
>he called regarding his sportsman
>tag??????????
>
>That's your criteria for poached/not poached
>is what office got called?????????
>
>
>You are willing to defame people
>over which office got called??????????
>
>
>Just because the answer didn't come
>from the office you think
>it should come from you
>think this is all "corruption
>and elitism"?????? Is that
>what counts as logic for
>you?
>
>By the way you don't know
>that he didn't call them.
> You just know that
>he got hold of someone
>somewhere else. ONE MORE
>THING YOU DON'T KNOW.
>
>
>By the way did you realize
>you are getting voted as
>the worst first time poster
>on that other forum?
>
>The boat sank and you are
>still screaming that the food
>was cold.

I do know that, im the one that told u to go vote.

No, tri, not an office, the boss. I dont talk to the receptionist about medical questions, i talk to the doctor. Dont forget, biologists talk, and they know what happened too.

I know you think wl is your bud, and as long as the checks clear, he will keep letting you think that, so your loyalty is admirable.

Tri the investigation was for poaching, not speeding. Thats where the poaching word came from.

Last, how long until one of those texas boys figures out who "tristate" is that posted the pic that fueled all this? They seem pretty proud of texas, they might not take kindly to one of there own getting this going. And yeah i do have 12 wives, our beer is watered, and my state flag is lame. I didnt think trolling their site was all that great, i dont hunt hogs, dont hunt whitetails, hunt oublic ground, i aint texan, thats their place, why do you find trolling interesting?






"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Keep smoking the good stuff Hossblur. You didn't know anything then. You know just a little bit now from the state letter which is about as much as I know. Before then everything was rumors whether you want to admit it or not.

You did make an interesting statement in this post. Probably your most revealing yet. Here it is.

" As for the sportsmans tag owner, i would love to see a lawsuit, seems you were defrauded. "

This specifically says Hossblur's measurement of happiness is dependent upon the misery and assault on others. Nothing else. You can't justify it with fiscal gain for yourself or that you have been wronged. It is pure hatred, and as childish as I have seen anyone here ever behave.


Go hunting Hossblur. Its time for you to remember what its about.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-16 AT 09:12AM (MST)[p]"No, tri, not an office, the boss."


You're living in lala land slick. The reason a lot of those people are there is because the boss doesn't want to deal with crazies like YOU. Trust me I ain't worried about those guys on that other forum and they ain't worried in the least bit about me. Please go announce to them exactly who I am. Just like here I don't hide from people.
 
What do you think ive been doing last few days? Sitting in swamp hunting ducks, entertaining myself between flights with your stuff. Muzzleloader, elk, rifle. Tri, not one guide, not one trespass fee, no check scratched to my good friend". I simply go, when i want, for how long i want, shoot what i want, something you in texas can never do. I know that it blows your mind that i go hunt and dont have to check the reviews on lodging, or what rating the chef got. I know, i am blessed to live here, and live this way. Thats something you cant fathom. In your world, its a adventure vacation but instead of a t shirt you have a head mount. Carry on!!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-16 AT 09:52AM (MST)[p]Interesting insight Tri, I am curious as to what your measurement of happiness is dependent on?

Rut
 
Rutcrazed,

Learning from first hand experiences.


Hossblur,

You really should stay away from the assumptions. Go hunting. Get outdoors.
 
Tri,

You dont think I can call the Boss of my wildlife agency? Or cheif game warden? You under estimate me. And I bet WLH knows those same people in his state.
 
>Can you give me their number.
> I have a few
>questions for them.


First off I wouldn't do that to people I like. Secondly, you're just a nobody Tri.
 
Tri do you think if the table was turned the outcome would have been different. Lets say the public sportsmen sheep tag holder shot this sheep, what would the outcome have been?
 
That is destructive speculation which no one here has any clue or answer for. To sit and wonder about that might be the greatest waste of anyone's time possible.

By the way I just had the game warden here. He thinks it's great that WLH and the hunter weren't charged with anything.
 
We are glad to hear that the Texas version of Barney Fife is happy about the situation. Thanks for the report.

-Hawkeye-
 
>That is destructive speculation which no
>one here has any clue
>or answer for. To
>sit and wonder about that
>might be the greatest waste
>of anyone's time possible.
>
>By the way I just had
>the game warden here.
>He thinks it's great that
>WLH and the hunter weren't
>charged with anything.

Probably one wlh calls for permission in utah when hes "confused"

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Hey Hossblur went to Texas to get their opinion. I thought he might want one more.

Don't be so bitter Hawkeye. I thought you support game wardens. You almost sound like a poacher talking trash about an LEO like that.
 
Utah Code ? 23-20-3 says, in part, that:

(1) Except as provided in this title or a rule, proclamation, or order of the Wildlife Board, a person may not:

(a) take protected wildlife or its parts;

(b) collect, import, possess, transport, propagate, store, donate, transfer, or export protected wildlife or its parts;

(c) take, possess, sell, purchase, barter, donate, or trade protected wildlife or its parts without having previously procured the necessary licenses, permits, tags, stamps, certificates of registration, authorizations, and receipts required in this title or a rule, proclamation, or order of the Wildlife Board;

(d) take protected wildlife with any weapon, ammunition, implement, tool, device, or any part of any of these not specifically authorized in this title or a rule, proclamation, or order of the Wildlife Board;

This statute is basically a catch all, and allows for prosecution even when a Utah hunter did not intentionally break the law. An individual can even be prosecuted under this section if they made an honest mistake as to their location (thinking they were on a different tract of land).

The statute is allowed to catch 'honest mistakes' because of paragraph (3)(b). The paragraph says: "does so with criminal negligence as defined in Subsection 76-2-103(4). ? 76-2-103(4) says:

"With criminal negligence or is criminally negligent with respect to circumstances surrounding his conduct or the result of his conduct when he ought to be aware of a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the circumstances exist or the result will occur. The risk must be of a nature and degree that the failure to perceive it constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that an ordinary person would exercise in all the circumstances as viewed from the actor's standpoint."

A hunting example of criminal negligence would be if a hunter, who has a Nevada hunting license, thought he was in Nevada when he shot an animal, and was actually in Utah. Even though the hunter did not intend to take an animal illegally (poach), and had a license, he could be prosecuted under ? 23-20-3.

Hunters, be careful. Know your location before you pull the trigger. Because, even though you have a license, and do not have the intent to take an animal unlawfully, ie. "I wasn't poaching", you could still be prosecuted for an honest mistake, or in the eyes of Utah law, criminal negligence.

That is, in essence, what the law states. Now add in the DWR gave them permission either directly or indirectly to hunt in the unit they were hunting in. Isn't really any dispute to any of this. Someone made a mistake, honest or not, they can't prove criminal negligence against the hunter. Things happen and employees make mistakes.

Therefore, I repeat what I said earlier if this was a hunter who drew the sheep tag and was a DIY hunter who made a mistake ya'll would be calling for the DWR's head rather than the hunter. BUT because it was an auction tag and WLH was hired then the rich hunter should be lynched at sunrise. Call it jealousy, envy, or whatever. I realize it is tough to admit, but it is what it is.
 
Gunnie,

First, hunter ed handbook, you are responsible for your bullet.

Second, the biologist isnt on the wildlife board.

Third, a mistake would mean not knowing. If wlh didnt know of the rule he wouldnt have called. The mistake would be not knowing the rule.

The sheep was killed illegally, dead sheep sitting on a closed unit, there are pics. There is a grand canyon difference between innocent, and not being able to prove criminal intent.

You have to be completely clueless to think wlh just happened to wander up the nebo and this chain of events took place. Dont forget, there was a tv show filming this. The coordination of hunter, guide, show pretty much proves "mistake" is a weeee bit of a stretch.

What happened is done. There will be fall out, be curious to see what. If your in charge of a department that cant manage 2 tags, your azz should be down the road, imo.
Guide should face disciplinary board, in the least he didnt act ethically or professionally.
Hunter, i hope feels silly, or embarrassed.
I personally dont think bc should accept it.
Simething happened, there is a dead sheep, for nothing to happen on the other side, means that "mistakes" will continue.

I know you disagree, so does tri, but, such is life. The whole deal is discraceful.





"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 

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