Hardcore

High5

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-08 AT 11:22PM (MST)[p]OK Hardcore.....I'm not wanting to hijack the Sitka thread....
In you opinion, how important is a camo shell on a rifle hunt???
Because of your reply's in the Sitka thread, I am reconsidering my layering system for a backpack rifle hunt in AK the 1st week of Sept.
Initially...I was thinking core (Under Armor), insulation (Sitka Mt shirt, pants & vest), soft shell (Sitka 90%) and rain jacket & pants (HH Impertech).
Now, I'm considering a hard shell & pant (Arcteryx Theta) to replace the Sitka 90% and the HH Impertech.
As you know both the HH & the Arcteryx are solids only..., No camo!
Depending on the weather....I would expect to wear the hard shell more than the rain jacket, so I would be in solid (black or tan) more than camo.
I was once told by a salty old SE AK outfitter that camo is for the consumer, I tend to agree...
What's your opinion?
Also, what is you opinion on an internal pack? I'm considering Kifaru Longhunter (expensive), Mystery Ranch 5000 (expensive & heavy) & Eleberstock J107 Dragonfly (stout enough?).
I've been in touch with you on boots... but I don't understand insoles. What is the difference between Superfeet Green & Orange???

Oh... and Congrats on the WH gear gig! I'm looking forward to reading each of your reviews
 
Given the choice, I would go camo. Stealth is good and every little bit helps. My favorite camo patterns are, in no particular order, Cabelas Outfitter, MARPAT Digital Desert, MARPAT Digital Woodland, and the new Air Force Digital Tiger Stripe. The testing that I have seen says these are the best and most versatile. However, the best outer shells on the market are made by people who either don't hunt or don't like hunting so we have to settle for something as close to coyote brown or sage green as possible.

Case in point is Arcteryx. At present, Arcteryx is generally regarded by the market as state of the art in technical shell gear and generally, I agree. Specifically, the Beta AR Jacket, but it doesn't come in camo, it is not as quiet as hunting specific pieces like Cabelas MTO50 or Rivers West and they seem to be cut for the vegan vegetarian Birkenstock PETA Prius latte crowd. If you have ever had a cheese burger in your life, you need the next size up in an Arcteryx, and they don't make a XXL. The closest thing to a hunting friendly color you can get in the Beta AR Jacket is Basalt which is kind of a two tone dirty, grayish tan. I have been trying to get Arcteryx to do something for hunters for several years now and they finally told me that hunters are not part of their core customer group. They said it in a politically correct, PR sort of way but I know what they meant. Hunters are Neanderthal, knuckle dragging, red necks. Someday I will share the return email I sent but decorum prevents me from doing so here. Regardless, they make a great jacket. Lately, in addition to my Cabelas MTO50 Pack Light jacket and bibs I have been using the Carhartt Waterproof Breathable Jacket and Waist Overalls if I am riding something and the TAD Gear Predator Hardshell Jacket and pants if on foot. Keep an eye on both of these companies. Carhartt seems committed to adapting to customer interests and Tad Gear, already producing the finest outer layer shells on the market, is working on a new line of products that will raise the bar again. Integral Designs, Rab and Wild Things also make some very nice shells that use eVent instead of Gore-Tex which is just as waterproof but breathes much better. It is the next big thing.

Many years as a ground pounding SAR Tech turned me into a devout ounce counter. When you are carrying a lot of extra gear to reach, treat and extricate people in the wilderness setting, your personal gear gets winnowed down to the very barest of essentials and they have to be flexible enough to work in most conditions. The outer shell is very important to me. Read Superman?s Cape on my site for the details but the bottom line is that I rarely if ever take my shell jacket or pants off, especially in the third and fourth seasons. I even sleep with it on when I bivy or cold camp. I constantly regulate perspiration and warmth with ventilation techniques and by varying my insulation layer. I wear a polypro base layer top and bottom, a light synthetic insulation jacket liner, a waterproof breathable shell jacket and pants, a ball cap, and light Nomex gloves. In my pack I carry a high loft-ultra high quality-light weight down insulation jacket, heavy duty two piece waterproof breathable insulated gloves, spare socks, spare glove liners, a spare base top, a stocking cap and a windproof balaclava. That's it. Again, the specifics are all on my site but now do you see why I have no use for the Sitka 90% jacket? However, their new Nimbus jacket looks promising. I am trying to get one for evaluation but I think they are pissed at me.

As for packs, the ones you mentioned are all very good from very good makers. I am going to do pack evaluations as soon as I am done with boots in a couple weeks so I will reserve judgment on internal vs. external. I have used both extensively. Externals are the king of big loads. Internals ride better, closer and cut a trimmer profile in tight cover. In addition to the ones you mentioned, look at Bergans, Kelty, Gregory, Badlands and Barneys.

Superfeet is an aftermarket insole maker and their different models are distinguishable by their color. Green and orange are the best for what we do. The orange has additional forefoot padding.

Regarding the Western Hunter magazine article, thank you, I appreciate it. I hope people get something out of them. I sure do, I learn something new every day from my readers. The whole point is to pass along useful information on great gear and techniques to improve safety and performance in the field. I will always give you my honest opinion. I can be persuaded or proven wrong but I cannot be bought.

Regards,

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Hardcore, Thanks for the great reply..
You've given me lots to consider and to research.
I'll be sure to let you know what I end up with.
Keep up the great work!
Claude
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-10-08 AT 04:10PM (MST)[p]I will only add that if you decide to go with the Sitka 90%, you will probably want the vest too. If it gets cold, the vest is probably the most important layering garment. Whether you decide to go hard shell or soft shell + rain gear, it's really personal preference. I know HC disagrees with me but I'd rather have the versatility of a camo soft shell and carry seperate rain gear to put on when needed. I'm a bow hunter so I need camo and I need quiet. A mountaineering type hard shell, while perfectly fine for a rifle hunter, leaves a lot to be desired when you need to get in close. I'm not a real big fan of the soft type rain gear like MT050. It works fine for non backcountry hunts where you have a place to dry it out at night and where you don't have to pack it. I don't care for it for backcountry hunting though since completely drying out is sometimes hard to do. After a contiunued rain the outer soft covering of the rain suede/fleece/MT050 type rain gear will get saturated. You may be dry on the inside but the garment will be heavy and will feel clammy. I much prefer non absorbing rain gear to pair with a soft shell when needed. Different strokes for different folks.

I also like the Green Superfeet inside my Meindls. Take your boots into an REI and they will let you try on the different types and see what you like best.

http://www.wildernessathlete.com/ because the most important piece of equipment you own is YOU!

http://www.sitkagear.com/ Turning clothing into gear.

www.hudallaassociates.com
 
BigPig

Last one. That is a much better and more persuasive argument justifying the 90% Jacket then you made on the Sitka thread. I disagree with it, because I like the MTO50 and it has worked exceptionally well for me, but at least I can see your reasoning. And you didn't call me Dude.

But I do agree with you 100% that the perfect outer shell does not exist for what you do. The close in work required for bow hunting demands stealth. I hear the same thing from my military and tactical law enforcement readers. That is why I keep pushing people like Cabelas, Sitka, Arcteryx, Cloudveil, Tad Gear and others in forums like this to build a technical mountaineering parka with a low or no noise signature in camo.

All of the componenents are there, they just are not in the same place at the same time in the same product. We are that close to getting the perfect shell jacket for both bow and rifle hunters but nobody has done it yet.

Sitka in my opinion is in a better position then anybody to get it done. I will keep pushing until they or somebody gets it right. Or I will put my money where my mouth is and do it myself I guess. Anyway, I love arguing great gear brother but I am worn out on this one. I am toast.

Take care of yourself and good luck in the field.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-10-08 AT 07:05PM (MST)[p]Agreed. I guess I should have mentioned that in the first post. I sometimes take it for granted that we aren't always talking about bowhunting. That definitely changes things. For what I do, the best system for me is a soft shell and separate rain gear. I'm glad there are guys like you out there pushing the manufacturers to build a better mousetrap. If someone can come up with a breathable, quiet, windproof, waterproof, lightweight, non bulky mountaineering type jacket, but in a good camo pattern, I'd be all over it. I'm just not sure the fabric exists yet. Basically what we are talking about is a quiet hardshell. That's a tall order. I hope someone can figure it out. Until then I think Sitka has about the best compromise worked out for the backcountry BOWhunter. That's my opinion, I'm done now. Best of luck to you too.

http://www.wildernessathlete.com/ because the most important piece of equipment you own is YOU!

http://www.sitkagear.com/ Turning clothing into gear.

www.hudallaassociates.com
 
>Given the choice, I would go
>camo. Stealth is good
>and every little bit helps.
> My favorite camo patterns
>are, in no particular order,
>Cabelas Outfitter, MARPAT Digital Desert,
>MARPAT Digital Woodland, and the
>new Air Force Digital Tiger
>Stripe. The testing that
>I have seen says these
>are the best and most
>versatile. However, the best
>outer shells on the market
>are made by people who
>either don't hunt or don't
>like hunting so we have
>to settle for something as
>close to coyote brown or
>sage green as possible.
>
>Case in point is Arcteryx.
>At present, Arcteryx is generally
>regarded by the market as
>state of the art in
>technical shell gear and generally,
>I agree. Specifically, the
>Beta AR Jacket, but it
>doesn't come in camo, it
>is not as quiet as
>hunting specific pieces like Cabelas
>MTO50 or Rivers West and
>they seem to be cut
>for the vegan vegetarian Birkenstock
>PETA Prius latte crowd.
>If you have ever had
>a cheese burger in your
>life, you need the next
>size up in an Arcteryx,
>and they don't make a
> XXL. The closest
>thing to a hunting friendly
>color you can get in
>the Beta AR Jacket is
>Basalt which is kind of
>a two tone dirty, grayish
>tan. I have been
>trying to get Arcteryx to
>do something for hunters for
>several years now and they
>finally told me that hunters
>are not part of their
>core customer group. They
>said it in a politically
>correct, PR sort of way
>but I know what they
>meant. Hunters are Neanderthal,
>knuckle dragging, red necks.
>Someday I will share the
>return email I sent but
>decorum prevents me from doing
>so here. Regardless, they
>make a great jacket.
>Lately, in addition to my
>Cabelas MTO50 Pack Light jacket
>and bibs I have been
>using the Carhartt Waterproof Breathable
>Jacket and Waist Overalls if
>I am riding something and
>the TAD Gear Predator Hardshell
>Jacket and pants if on
>foot. Keep an eye
>on both of these companies.
> Carhartt seems committed to
>adapting to customer interests and
>Tad Gear, already producing the
>finest outer layer shells on
>the market, is working on
>a new line of products
>that will raise the bar
>again. Integral Designs, Rab
>and Wild Things also make
>some very nice shells that
>use eVent instead of Gore-Tex
>which is just as waterproof
>but breathes much better.
>It is the next big
>thing.
>
>Many years as a ground pounding
>SAR Tech turned me into
>a devout ounce counter.
>When you are carrying a
>lot of extra gear to
>reach, treat and extricate people
>in the wilderness setting, your
>personal gear gets winnowed down
>to the very barest of
>essentials and they have to
>be flexible enough to work
>in most conditions. The
>outer shell is very important
>to me. Read Superman?s
>Cape on my site for
>the details but the bottom
>line is that I rarely
>if ever take my shell
>jacket or pants off, especially
>in the third and fourth
>seasons. I even sleep
>with it on when I
>bivy or cold camp.
>I constantly regulate perspiration and
>warmth with ventilation techniques and
>by varying my insulation layer.
> I wear a polypro
>base layer top and bottom,
>a light synthetic insulation jacket
>liner, a waterproof breathable shell
>jacket and pants, a ball
>cap, and light Nomex gloves.
> In my pack I
>carry a high loft-ultra high
>quality-light weight down insulation jacket,
>heavy duty two piece waterproof
>breathable insulated gloves, spare socks,
>spare glove liners, a spare
>base top, a stocking cap
>and a windproof balaclava.
>That's it. Again, the
>specifics are all on my
>site but now do you
>see why I have no
>use for the Sitka 90%
>jacket? However, their new
>Nimbus jacket looks promising.
>I am trying to get
>one for evaluation but I
>think they are pissed at
>me.
>
>As for packs, the ones you
>mentioned are all very good
>from very good makers.
>I am going to do
>pack evaluations as soon as
>I am done with boots
>in a couple weeks so
>I will reserve judgment on
>internal vs. external. I
>have used both extensively.
>Externals are the king of
>big loads. Internals ride
>better, closer and cut a
>trimmer profile in tight cover.
> In addition to the
>ones you mentioned, look at
>Bergans, Kelty, Gregory, Badlands and
>Barneys.
>
>Superfeet is an aftermarket insole maker
>and their different models are
>distinguishable by their color.
>Green and orange are the
>best for what we do.
> The orange has additional
>forefoot padding.
>
>Regarding the Western Hunter magazine article,
>thank you, I appreciate it.
> I hope people get
>something out of them.
>I sure do, I learn
>something new every day from
>my readers. The whole
>point is to pass along
>useful information on great gear
>and techniques to improve safety
>and performance in the field.
> I will always give
>you my honest opinion.
>I can be persuaded or
>proven wrong but I cannot
>be bought.
>
>Regards,
>
>Wade
>www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
>

hey guys,
Next time you talk to arctyrexx regarding camo ask them about the jackes they are doing for police and forces personnel in Canada. They had a special deal going where serving members could get Arctyrex products in the "canpat" (i think that is the name" camo patterns. FYI
 
As far as I know, Arteryx offers only the Universal and Multicam camos in one of their pieces in the LEAF (Law Enforcement Armed Forces) line which is the Combat Jacket. The Combat Jacket is not one of my favorite Arteryx pieces and not one that I recommend. Oddly, they also offer a bib shell in a Mossy Oak camo pattern. Go figure.

Ateryx is a double edged sword in my opinion. They make top of the line gear but they run a full size small, are relatively loud and offer limited colors for the trigger puller. Arcteryx doesn't like to advertise the fact that they have a LEAF line and the Manger of that group is pretty much unresponsive. I went to them to do a special run of 300 pieces, cash up front, using existing colors and they treated me like trash. I guess business is pretty good.

I didn't have any other viable alternatives so I began the process of building something from scratch with a reputable military contractor. I should have a prototype of that jacket in Multicam any day now. It uses eVent. I can't wait to see how it turned out. I never wanted to be in the manufacturing business but if the product you want is not offered by the market you have to put up or shut up. I chose the former. Hopefully it was not a complete waste of time. Stay tuned.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
eVent is a new waterproof breathable laminate very similar to the early versions of Gore-Tex. eVent is said to "breathe" signifigantly better than Gore Tex. My own experience is that eVent does move water vapor better than standard Gore Tex but I am not sure that it is an apples to apples comparison. eVent does not use an oleophobic coating which protects the membrane from contamination from oil and insect repellant etc. Gore Tex does. The oleophobic coating makes the Gore membrane last longer. eVent doesn't use a coating so it moves water vapor faster but its waterproof durability is thought to be questionable.

The protective coating effects durability and breathability. Thicker coatings improve durability but decrease breathability and visa versa. The science and chemicals are pretty much the same but it is their composition and application that differ and then of course you get the marketing gurus and word smiths involved and things get pretty fuzzy.

My current opinion, based on the research, is that if you don't intend to keep and use a particular shell piece for more than 2 or 3 seasons, eVent is the way to go. I have Gore Tex shell products from the late 70's that are still fully functional so I can personally attest to their durability. I cannot make the same claim for eVent, yet.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Hardcore
Following your philosophy, you have a four season, three layer system were the only weather related changes you make is the density of your baselayer? I think your insulation layer is a down vest? Is there a close second option to down with less bulk? I have always assumed fleece. I ask because I thought you said that you don't typically wear fleece. Secondly, wouldn't fleece allow more moisture to evaporate from your base layer as opposed to a down product with a nylon face? Lastly, though the soft shell products have a nice trim fit with little bulk, I am very skeptical of thier ability to breathe. Am I safe to assume that all softshell products generally, (to one extent or another even River's West), have very limited moisture transport properties? BTW, I will be thoroughly reviewing your website for additional info.
 
First, please remember my style of hunting, trekking, and backpacking. It is not based on comfort nearly as much as it is on performance and survivability. I come from the mountaineering and Mountain Rescue Team part of the spectrum, I just also happen to be a hunter. If you really think about it, the gear serves the same purposes for all of us, the differences are color and noise. Weight and efficiency is paramount for me.

I try to stick to just three layers but vary the thickness or weight of the base and or insulation layer to suit the conditions. Base Layer-Light, Mid or Expedition weight REI MTS poly pro or maybe an Outdoor Research Saturn Suit. Insulation Layer-High loft, high quality fill down jacket (not a vest) like the Western Mountaineering Flight or Meltdown series if water (this includes sweat) is not an issue. If water is an issue then I substitute synthetic insulated jackets like the Marmot TR6 or something else with Primaloft, Climasheild, Lamilite or even Polarguard.

Most times the insulation layer is not worn unless I stop for a while (glassing, sleeping) in which case physical exertion is at a minmum and maximum warmth/insulation is needed. Most of the time when I am moving I am just wearing a base and my protective outer shell and I vary my physical exertion level to stay just warm enough but not over heat and sweat. I am also venting as much as I need to. It is a constant balancing act but this way there is no insulation layer to interfere with or inhibit the evaporation process.

I don't wear much fleece unless it is very high loft because it just doesn't seem to offer as much warmth relative to the weight when you compare it to down or the good synthetics. However, there are situations where fleece makes sense. When you say that you are looking for a less bulkier insulation than down, I am not sure what you mean. I don't understand the term bulk. Do you mean something thinner? Thinner means less dead air space ie less warmth. You can't get high thermal efficiency with low mass unless you introduce an artificial heat source. To stay warm you have to be dry, insulated and generating heat from the inside.

As far as the wicking or moisture transport abilities of an insulation layer, it doesn't really. The idea behind a wicking baselayer is to get the sweat off of the skin because moisture causes the skin to loose heat much faster, like 25x faster. Where that moisture goes when it gets wicked away from the skin depends on a lot of factors but it doesn't go very far or very fast if insulation is involved. There is no magic conveyor belt. The best way in my experience to get rid of that moisture is by active ventilation techniques ie exposing that wicked moisture to moving air to which helps it evaporate off. It also helps push the water vapor out through the waterproof/breathable shell if the exterior is dry.

I can tell you that when I was a SAR Tech in the field, speed in reaching a victim was everything so we didn't care how much sweat we were generating. We wore as little as possible to stay cool and we carried an extra base layer in our packs so that we could change out of the wet one when we had a chance. That worked out pretty well.

Hope that helps. it would be nice to have this conversation over a beer instead of writing it out. Always seems to loose something in the writing process.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Wade,
That was the clarification I was looking for. I think (for me anyway)one of the overlooked pieces of your strategy is the ability to maintain discipline in regards to exertion level. That is hard for me to do with limited time in the field every year. After following your recent entries I would concur with a beer over a keyboard. Thanks for the help. Happy Holidays.
 
Kamo,

As a SAR Tech weight was critical for a couple of reasons. We had to carry technical rescue gear and or a full BLS med kit in addition to our own snivel gear. Guess what our priority was. Also, most jurisdictions I worked with used single engine, light observation type helicopters which are severly weight restricted especially when you take into account altitude and mountain flying. Typically you stand at the helo knowing precisely how much you and your gear weighs so the pilot can do his load calcs and many times you have to dump weight. Again, between personal gear, med gear and tech rescue gear, what do you think gets pitched first. Yep, personal gear.

From a mountaineering standpoint, the big chalenge is the altitude. The higher you go the tougher it is and the more weight you need to cut out of your system in order to perform. Pretty soon you end up with just the bare essentials and the sacrifice is comfort. The saying goes, pack light and tight and freeze at night. It isn't too bad though as long as you just keep moving.

It is those two genres that shape the system I use for hunting and it also applies to my military special ops and CSAR (combat search and rescue) readers because they are also carrying a lot of mission critical gear that takes priority over and their snivel gear. Like I said, my system is not for everybody but for hardcore backpack hunters toting rifles, ammo, and optics that go deep and stay deep until the job is done or the season ends, it works. It ain't comfy sometimes but it works and I enjoy the challenge. In fact, I get a bigger kick out meeting that challenge than I do pulling the trigger.

However, for most folks it is a lot of fuss over nothing. They just carry the extra gear and it all works out. That's cool too. Different strokes and all.

Always love to talk about it and I always learn something. Take care and merry Christmas to you.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 

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