Hate Wealth tags? - Vote with your dollars

J

javihammer

Active Member
Messages
135
With all the talk and negativity about auction and raffle tags, hunters have the power to start pushing back immediately. SFW has posted some of their confirmed exhibitors for the 2013 Expo, this is the same expo they use to raffle and auction hundreds of tags, see this link

http://www.floorplangenie.com/Events/fpgMuleDeer/WHCE2013/public/fphtml.aspx

If you like SFW and the principles they espouse, you may wish to support their exhibitors. If you dont like SFW and have a relationship with one of these exhibitors, you may want to reevaluate using them or give them a call (most are guides). With hunts starting soon, you are running out of time to make changes.

Take care,
Ryan
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-12 AT 06:50AM (MST)[p]Sounds like you have dicks on your mind there Karen, rather than auction tags, LOL! As far as class warfare, that's exactly what it is. All those tags being auctioned off to the wealthy, with no chance for the average guy to get one, plus the fact that they're taken out of the draw pool, is against the NAM and needs to be abolished no matter what organization is doing it. One way to accomplish that is to hit proponents of it in the pocketbook like the OP suggests. That's a legitimate, legal way to take care of a bad situation before it spreads to other states.
 
It varies from state to state but there are several times as many draw, over the counter, and land owner tags available than auction tags. The auction tags, again depending on state doing it, pays for a lot more conservation projects than a draw or over the counter tag does. Even helps wildlife projects in areas where the auction hunt doesn't take place. Even helps wildlife projects that have nothing to do with hunting. Even helps fund ANTI-POACHING taskforces. I know that should get your attention. Getting rid of auction tags is a short sighted solution to the problems facing lower income hunters. A more constructive solution would be for hunters to get their state governments to inact management solutions that would increase herd populations and general health of their game herds. Western states notoriously neglect their wildlife management and the guy hoping to draw a tag every ten years suffers. Getting government to take away another hunting opportunity from a hunter no matter how much money it costs won't solve your problem. That's no different than Obama taking a steak off your plate and giving it to ghetto trash because you don't deserve it. It is class warfare period. Class warfare is a quick distraction for the mentaly challenged who can vote.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-12 AT 07:56AM (MST)[p]tristate---In case you haven't read the NAM (North American Model of Wildlife Conservation) that is the basis of what we're talking about, you may want to do that before making any more posts like you just did! This thread is about Utah and no other state. You stated: "Western states notoriously neglect their wildlife management and the guy hoping to draw a tag every ten years suffers. Getting government to take away another hunting opportunity from a hunter no matter how much money it costs won't solve your problem." That, and several of your other statements are not factual and have no basis. They are your opinion and I have to say they're offbase and at least need some basis or foundation to make statements like that. Also, in case you aren't aware of it, the Utah tags we're talking about have strict guidelines that the money made goes back into conservation and not a bunch of the stuff, including poaching, you mentioned in your post.
 
I understand what the post was about. I know about the stupid NAM propoganda. Everything I mentioned in my post was about conservation. Just because it doesn't involve you getting a deer in the freezer doesn't mean it has nothing to do with conservation. I think maybe you are reading faster than your brain is comprehending. Just take my word for it now I have forgotten more about wildlife laws, game management, and conservation than you will ever know.
 
The more you post, the more I think you're a plant just trying to stir up #####! If you are calling the NAM "propaganda" you don't know squat about conservation in order to have forgotten anything about it! Then you come up with BS about putting a deer in the freezer and making personal attacks instead of stating facts to back yourself up. Pretty lame there dude!
 
How am I personaly attacking you? And yes NAM is feel good propoganda for people to put on websites and brochures, and keep little people as little people because they don't believe they are little people. I am not attacking people who wait around dreaming of an opportunity to get a hunting tag I am simply telling the truth. Your state governments have turned much of the hunt tag system into a welfare model. In many ways hunters are becoming very similar to ghetto people waiting on government cheese. Except the cheese is a deer tag or a sheep tag. And then they flash NAM in your face and tell you "Isn't this great all this wildlife is yours". Meanwhile you are rarely allowed to utilize and enjoy it. And the governments never have to step up and increase hunting opportunities for you they just have to keep showing you the cheese. Once you actually start dealing with wildlife law you realize how little of it is based on NAM. Go look at the SFW website. On page one they are talkig about giving away $7000 to a youth archery program. Do you think over the counter tags, and draws are going to fund that? And that's the future of your sport, and you want to cut them out so you can have a couple of extra opportunities at a tag. Selfish! Class warfare is the greatest thing that can happen for these state agencies. The more you fight against other hunters for tags the less pressure is on them to do one damn thing to improve hunting opportunities for you.
 
It appears you fit in very well with SFW and if you aren't a member you better call Don and join up real fast, LOL! You attacked me when you made the deer in the freezer statement, made negative comments on my reading comprehension, and then stated you forgot more than I would ever know about conservation. You, Sir, with your philosophies, are in the vast minority of maybe 1% on this website when you state what you have about that organization and how things should be funded. I'll leave it at that, as I have no yearning to get into another pissing match with you in your first week on the site after the trammer thread BS!
 
So you don't want a deer in your freezer????????? Wanting a deer in your freezer is insulting???????? I think maybe you think you are on an anti hunting website if you believe that is an insult. Grow up and get some thicker skin, or how about any skin. I have been a professional in the hunting industry since I was 16. I hold a degree in wildlife and fisheries sciences. I have worked as a full time wildlife biologist for deer management. I still work sixty hours a week in the hunting industry and dealing with legal issues in the industry. So yes, I do know more than you about hunting and conservation. Everything I own is dependent upon me knowing about conservation and laws in the industry. It is not an insult that I know more about it than you do its just a fact. Just like I don't know doody about police work and investigations so I don't involve myself in arguements about those matters with you.
 
That post is laughable and I told you I'm not getting in a pissing contest like you have tried to do now and in the trammer thread you posted on, so go take a hike! Everyone can see you for what you are!
 
"That post is laughable and I told you I'm not getting in a pissing contest like you have tried to do now and in the trammer thread you posted on, so go take a hike!"

So why would you have responded in the first place? You realy aren't very honest with yourself. So I want to know an honest yes or no answer. Is having a couple more opportunities for you to draw a deer tag in a state welfare model more important than teaching kids about archery? This is a simple yes or no question. Give me a yes or no and then you can rant all you want.
 
I'll try to stick to the original topic and not get in the middle of a love fest between two other posters.

I am strongly opposed to the excessive sale of auction and convention tags in Utah.
I do support the Hunt Expo, however, and find it one of the better hunting shows around. In my opinion, it would be just as good and just as well attended without the tag giveaways. Trying to penalize the exhibitors is wrong-headed. We need to continue building the clinetele and outfitter base to make this show a booming success without the tag giveaways. While it may not have been possible originally, this expo is building a reputation for quality exhibitors that has nothing to do with the tag giveaways.
Bill
 
Tristate how much of the revenue from the convention is going to directly help wildlife??? I hope you make a killing at the convention it's whats funding it is the problem.
 
I will bite on this one Tristate. Tristate asked: "Is having a couple more opportunities for you to draw a deer tag in a state welfare model more important than teaching kids about archery?"

Unfortunately, this is a loaded question that deserves more than a simple yes or no answer.

I think its great that groups and individuals donate time and money to teach kids about archery and other outdoors related issues. I have volunteered my own time and money to a similar causes. However, I don't think the fact that conservation groups participate in such a cause gives them a free pass on accounting for funds generated from public permits or other similar issues. That is what we are really talking about here. We (the public) want to know how the proceeds from our public tags are being used. So far, MDF and SFW have refused to account for the funds generated from the 200 convention permits.

There is also a separate issue of how many auction and raffle tags should be issued. For example, Utah has taken 500+ premium tags out the draw this year in the form of convention and conservation permits. Most of us would probably support a handful of auction/raffle permits to generate money for key projects. Utah, however, has taken this principle to a whole new level. Utah has more auction/raffle tags than all other western states combined. What has that translated into for the average sportsman? Have those tags funded projects that benefit the average sportsman? I think so. Does Utah have better hunting and management than other states that issue far less tags? I doubt it. Could Utah get more "bang for its buck" by issuing less wealth tags and carefully accounting for all those monies are used? I think so. At a minimum, these are issues that need to be carefully reviewed and discussed.

Another issue of concern is that by allocating a large number of wealth tags to be sold by conservation groups, you are giving these groups a great deal of power and influence with the government and DWR. This can be both good and bad. The groups then use that power and influence to further their agendas. This is all fine and dandy when they are pushing issues that have widespread support. It become more troublesome if their agendas are not supported by the majority. What is really problematic is when the groups use the very same power and influence generated in large part from the wealth tags to promote additional tags, limited transparency, limited accountability, etc. Some people might argue that once you start setting aside wealth tags you are opening "Pandora's Box" and going down a road that will be difficult if not impossible to ever turn back.

I should also note that your reference to the general draw as being "a state welfare model" is completely backwards. The fact that Utah annually hands 200 premium tags over to 2 conservation groups with no strings attached is more akin to welfare.

Just a few of the thoughts rattling around inside my head this morning.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
I have more issue with the CWMU program, it takes FAR more of our opprotunity from the general public than the convention tags ever will..I can only think of a couple propertys that have created opprotunity....the rest have taken it away....i would rather the money go towards conservation....


How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-12 AT 11:42AM (MST)[p]hawkeye---That is exactly why I didn't respond because it most certainly was a loaded question not worthy of just a yes or no answer. People with their own agenda have a way of doing exactly what he did. Thanks for your response because I will no longer discuss anything with this guy and his pompous attitude.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-12 AT 12:11PM (MST)[p]A couple of months ago the final approval went though for the drilling of 1200 new gas wells, on 177,000 acres of BLM land in Uinta and Duchesne countys.

In Utah there are 7 or 8 more of these types of projects, some 5 times as big as this one just a pen stroke away from being approved.

As we speak there are environmental groups taking in large amounts of funding in the name of so called environmental mitigation.

None of these groups are hunter friendly!

We are really missing the boat arguing about the peanuts that these auction tags bring in for hunting.

http://www.ogj.com/articles/2012/06...revised-uinta-basin-gas-development-plan.html
 
Here is my 2 cents. The youth programs should be funded by volunteers and those that care about those programs. (Charity) There is a fundamental flaw when you are taxed for someone else?s benefit. We see the same things happening every day in our government. No one is apposed to the programs just the way you are being taxed is the problem. Taxed is the correct term when your dollars are being collected and dispersed as those in charge direct. Charity seems to be a thing of the past. It has become a get all I can get for me. I have a dog in the fight with 17 NR deer points so maybe I'm swayed a little. And I will be at least 10 years older than I would have been when I get to come hunt Muleys in Utah, had Utah not started their welfare program. But maybe the one I get to shoot from the road will be 10 inches bigger. I personally would rather have the tag 10 years sooner and have the legs to hike 20 miles.

DZ
 
Some people don't call millions of dollars "peanuts" and they are two completely different subjects, both of which need to be dealt with, along with a lot of other stuff like this UN Arms Treaty that is being kicked around right now!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-12 AT 01:00PM (MST)[p]Here are e-mail addresses for the 1st 10 exhibitors, thanks! anyone willing to tackle the others I have broken them out into groups of 10......Let them know what you think...... Terry

African Arrow Safaris
[email protected]
Agarob Hunting Safaris
[email protected]
[email protected]
Agua Dulce Outfitters
[email protected]
[email protected]
Alaska Boardwalk Lodge
[email protected]
Alaskan Reel Affair Charters
[email protected]
Alpine Innovations/Gunslicker
[email protected]
Arctic Red River Outfitters LTD
[email protected]
Aztek Arms
[email protected]
[email protected]
B C Outfitters
[email protected]
Barnes Bullet
[email protected]

Bergzicht Game Lodge
Blaauwkrantz Safaris
Blu Goo
Bolen Lewis Trophy Guiding Company
Brent R.Todd Wildlife Artistry
Browning-Winchester Repeating Arms
Buck Bags
Buck Knives, Inc
Bugling Bull Game Call LLC
Bushmen Safaris

BVAC
Cabela's Inc.
Call O the Wild
Capitol Peak Outfitters
Capturing Time Gifts
Cayuse Outfitting
Chairbound Hunters
Chance Phelps Foundation
Colorado Cylinder Stove
Crooked Horn

Cross Canyon Arms
Davis Tent and Awning
Deer Fairy Outfits
Deuling Stone Outfitters, LTD
Dumukwa Safaris
Excessories Out West
Folding & Terminus Mountain Outfitters, Ltd
Fort Knox
Full Curl Outdoors LLC
Gana River Outfitters

Gix Africa Safaris
Glacier Bay Eagles Nest Lodge
Gone Fishin Lodge
Grizzly Graphics
Gundahoo River Outfitters-Muncho Lake BC
Gunwerks
Hartmans Art
Hartmans Art
Heavens Gate Outfitters
Hualapai Tribe Fish and Game Dept

Hunters & Guides Connection
Jakes Archery
Jasck Cassidy Colorado Big Game Hunts LLC
Jensen Jewelers
Kenetrek Boots
King's Camo
Kodiak Charters
Kodiak Charters
Kutlug Inc.

LAR Manufacturing
Lecia Camera, Inc.
Ledge
Louisana Purchase Ranch
McKenize Wildlife Productions
Medi-Rub
MG Arms
Mike Hunsaker Meats/Lazy H jerky
Minox
Montana Hunting and Fishing Adventures

Moose Island Oitfitters
Mossback
Mossberg
Motshwere Safaris
Mountain Man Original
Mule Deer Foundation
Muley Crazy
Mystery Ranch
New Zealand Hunt
Nikon

North American 30
North River Outfitting
Pacific Salmon Charters
Paparazzi Jewelry
Peel Forest Safaris New Zealand
RC Copters
Reflections in Metal
Rocky Mountain Safaris Outfitting LLC
Ron Burnson Wildlife Sculptures

RW Fishing
Sadaka Safaris
Safari Nordik
Savage Arms
Savannah Safaris
Scentsy
Skullpture Mount
Somerby Safaris
Somerby Safaris

Sonora Dark Horn Adventures
Soothing Elements
Southern Mountain Adventures
Spey Creek Trophy Hunting New Zealand
Sportsman For Fish & Wildlife
Sportsman For Fish & Wildlife
Sportsmen For Fish & Wildlife - Montana
Sportsmen For Fish & Wildlife - Wyoming
Storm Creek Outfitters
Swift Bullet Company
Tactical Hearing
Tail Hunter International
Thaba Mmayo Safaris

The Bluffs
Tom Mansanarez
Toyota of Utah
Track My Trophies
Twin Buttes Recreation LLC
U.S.A Shooting Team
Uhlenhorst
Utah Bowman's Association
Utah FNAWS
VDV Safaris

Vortex Optics
Wade Lemon Hunting
Wain Soper Pack Station
Wayne Wagner Safaris
Western Big Game Records
Western Regional Taxidermy Competition
Wild West Guns
Wilderness Enterprises
Zamberlan USA, Inc.
 
"I'll try to stick to the original topic and not get in the middle of a love fest between two other posters.

I am strongly opposed to the excessive sale of auction and convention tags in Utah.
I do support the Hunt Expo, however, and find it one of the better hunting shows around. In my opinion, it would be just as good and just as well attended without the tag giveaways. Trying to penalize the exhibitors is wrong-headed. We need to continue building the clinetele and outfitter base to make this show a booming success without the tag giveaways. While it may not have been possible originally, this expo is building a reputation for quality exhibitors that has nothing to do with the tag giveaways.
Bill "

Bill.....There are some high powered folks on that exhibitors list that have to be benefiting from the expo. Maybe if they knew how folks felt they would back out of the SFW Expo and coordinate one of their own. I'm sure it would be very well attended........ Terry
 
"I should also note that your reference to the general draw as being "a state welfare model" is completely backwards. The fact that Utah annually hands 200 premium tags over to 2 conservation groups with no strings attached is more akin to welfare."

Actually Moving tags to more private groups and auctioning them to "see what the market cane bare" is closer to capitolism. I agree that if the state is going to issue tags for auctions that the recievers should have their accounts scrutinized by the states, but that wasn't what the thread was about. As for the number of tags being 500 that's great. That's still a small percentage of the total number of tags available in the state between land owner, over the counter and draw. A lot of those tags are also second chance lottery tags that anyone with a few dollars can draw for when they go to the convention. I couple of years ago I put in $200 for some of the lottery tags offered. I didn't win but it was still a chance for me at some really good tags. None the less I notice you still couldn't just answer yes or no, and it is as simple as that. Would you want 2 more deer tags in the state wellfare more than you would want $7000 to educate future hunters?
 
"That is exactly why I didn't respond because it most certainly was a loaded question not worthy of just a yes or no answer."

How is it a loaded question? There is only one correct answer and the alternative shows that welfare recipients are short sighted and selfish. I will answer right here right now. I WILL GIVE UP MY CHANCE TO DRAW A DEER TAG IF IT MEANS THERE IS A BETTER CHANCE FOR CHILDREN TO BE INTRODUCED TO THE SHOOTING AND HUNTING SPORTS. Not that hard, and I don't feel cheated. I may even see if there is some more money I can spend if I find myself at the expo again in Feb. I know a lot of you think I am talking down to you but I am not. I havn't been able to by an auction tag yet and I put in for draws in the state of Utah. The difference is we are all in this pool and I am the one guy honest enough to say the water is way too cold.
 
Tristate said: ?Actually Moving tags to more private groups and auctioning them to "see what the market cane bare" is closer to capitolism. I agree that if the state is going to issue tags for auctions that the recievers should have their accounts scrutinized by the states, but that wasn't what the thread was about. As for the number of tags being 500 that's great. That's still a small percentage of the total number of tags available in the state between land owner, over the counter and draw.?

Well Tristate, I guess that statement pretty much sums up your position. As stated in one of your earlier posts, you view the North American Conservation Model (NACM) as nothing more than ?stupid propaganda.? Under your view of the world, we might as well take all of the tags and auction them off to the highest bidder so as to generate the greatest possible return. Such a position is in complete conflict with the NACM and the views of the vast majority of sportsmen. Your views, however, are consistent with Don Peay?s recent comments in Alaska where Don equated the NACM to socialism. See http://www.adn.com/2012/03/03/23505...2/03/03/235050...#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy

Rather than getting into a pissing match over this issue, I will simply state that I hope that your views on this issue never become the views of the majority. If they do, it will mark the end of hunting as we know it.

Returning to your loaded question, ?Would you want 2 more deer tags in the state welfare more than you would want $7000 to educate future hunters?? I would have to answer, YES. Knowing what I know and given the current state of affairs in Utah, I would vote to return 2 of the 500+ tags back to the public draw. Unfortunately, past experience tells me this will never happen. It is easy to justify an increase in wealth tags. However, once those tags are in place, good luck cutting them back!

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
"Returning to your loaded question, ?Would you want 2 more deer tags in the state welfare more than you would want $7000 to educate future hunters?? I would have to answer, YES. Knowing what I know and given the current state of affairs in Utah, I would vote to return 2 of the 500+ tags back to the public draw. Unfortunately, past experience tells me this will never happen. It is easy to justify an increase in wealth tags. However, once those tags are in place, good luck cutting them back!"

Then you have voluntarily cut the throat of your own herritage with a knife called GREED.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-12 AT 02:00PM (MST)[p]If you consider me to be a greedy person because I would support returning some portion of the 500+ conservation/convention tags to the public draw for average sportsmen to draw, so be it. I will wear that badge with honor. This is not the first time a SFW advocate has thrown that term at me.

Since I agreed to play your game and answer your loaded question, please answer the following sincere question: Since you are so concerned about introducing future sportsmen into the sport of hunting, how do you propose to provide the future generations with opportunities to hunt under a system that allocates opportunity to the highest bidder? I hope those young people all have wealthy parents.:) History demonstrates that the NACM has done a darn good job of ensuring that everyone has an opportunity to hunt. That principle is something that should not be lightly set aside.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
"Then you have voluntarily cut the throat of your own herritage with a knife called GREED."


I stand corrected, I am a greedy welfare hunter. That is quite the spin there Tristate.
 
Right now those kids can go get over the counter tags and have a ton of fun just like I do. I have never layed eyes on a 180 inch mule deer while I was hunting but I have never had any less fun than a man with a tag for the Henry mountians, and I hope every kid has just as much oportunity as me killing rinky dink deer. As they grow older I hope they begin working and earning money just like all of us do and if they choose to spend that money at an auction for a deer tag I think that's great. They don't have to have "wealthy parents". Plenty of poor kids grew up to make plenty of money on thier own. I know you and Obama don't think so but its the truth. And guess what else. You don't have to be rich to by one of those auction tags. I have had several clients and friends who have purchased them and they are regular old middle class folks who decided they would save a little money for a couple of years and do something nice for themselves. I know it sounds hard to believe but it happens every year.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-12 AT 02:23PM (MST)[p]Somehow I get the feeling that this guy is another SFW employee or one who has been on here all the time and has registered under another username. Anyway, he has succeeded in hijacking this thread right off the get go and continues to do so, which seems to be an ongoing tactic of SFW supporters when a thread like this is started! It's amazing the twists and spins that guys like this come up with to justify stealing from the masses of ordinary people so that the few wealthy ones can hunt whenever and wherever they want with their big money. Good for you Hawkeye, for calling him out and asking him if he got his way and all the tags went to this rich buyer philosophy how are any of the kids he's so interested in going to be able to hunt in the future!
 
Tristate doesn't have a clue!

Hawkeye nailed it on the head. Auctioning tags to the highest bidder is completely against the model. However, I don't remember him stating that it should be black or white. He stated that there should be a only a dozen or so auctioned to help with projects. Utah is auctioning off more tags than other states combined and most hunters here in the state are not happy with the herd sizes.

As far as the CWMU's.. I think they take a few too many tags as well. The 80/20 needs to be a 70/30.

Just given my two cents...
Nice posts Hawkeye.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-12 AT 02:27PM (MST)[p]"stupid NAM propoganda"........really troll? Ya crappin me? If it weren't for the NAM you wouldn't have a job.

21 post Tristate is just another troll who either works for SFW, has a job funded by the auction tags, or is an outfitter vulture waiting to sell services to the wealthy bidders. Nothing changes here. Just the handles.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
Tristate-

Okay, I see where you are going with this. Average Joes can hunt the general hunts (if they draw a tag in the general draw) but you would propose to reserve the quality, limited entry hunts for those who work hard, save their money and buy an auction tag.

This may come as a surprise to you but I am one of those "poor kids who grew up and made some money on their own through hard work." Luckily, I grew up in a time when you did not need to have bunch of money in order to hunt. Do I consider myself rich today? No. But I could probably buy an auction tag every year if chose to spend my money that way. I don't do that for a number of reasons, one of which is I do not believe that it would be right to jump to the front of the line year-after-year just because I might be able to write a check. Why should I have any more opportunity to hunt than any other hard working sportsman?

Your comments are entertaining but troubling. I should also note that this is the first time I have been lumped in the same group as Obama.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
"justify stealing from the masses of ordinary people so that the few wealthy ones can hunt whenever and wherever they want with their big money"

And there you have it. Finally all the cards are on the table and we can see both sides of the one eyed jack. Ends up I didn't hi-jack a thread and it is all about class warfare. Nobody has stolen anything. You have been eating that propoganda so much you now blindly spew it.
 
"You don't have to be rich to buy one of those auction tags. I have had several clients and friends who have purchased them and they are regular old middle class folks who decided they would save a little money for a couple of years and do something nice for themselves. I know it sounds hard to believe but it happens every year."

***Save a "little" money for a "couple" of years my butt! Look at what those tags sell for and tell me how many years and how much a year they would have to save to be in the running for one of those six digit priced tags!!! You are out to lunch if you are calling those kind of people "middle class"!
 
Tristate...it's buy....not by. for someone who is so educated on wildlife and has the background and schooling that you speak of sure doesn't know english very well.
Plus you need to realize that there is a huge majority of middle-class people who live paycheck to paycheck and can barely afford a general tag. Due to people like you who think auctioning tags is so wonderful, Obviously is not the majority. With the economy being so weak, the majority of everyone is not wealthy and don't have enough money to save and if they can save, it most likely won't be for an auctioning tag at the expo.

The more you speak,the more you sound stupid.
 
Zim,

He must be a guide if his "clients have purchased" these tags. He is both a SFW lover and a guide who DIRECTLY BENEFITS FROM THE TAG GRAB.
 
"Auctioning tags to the highest bidder is completely against the model."

BINGO! We have a winner. You actually are so angry at my facts you don't even realize you are supporting my postion. What have I said from the start. The conservation model is propoganda. The states and USFWS do not operate off of it. The laws that they pass have very little if anything to do with it most of the time. SO why are we arguing about the model. Its not relevant. We have all been playing in a game that the refs have been lying about the rules.
 
Yes Zim, Tristate is either completely out of touch with reality or he is a troll that is looking to ruffle some feathers. Either way, I was bored at work and wanted to have some fun. I probably should have ignored his posts.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
"21 post Tristate is just another troll who either works for SFW, has a job funded by the auction tags, or is an outfitter vulture waiting to sell services to the wealthy bidders."

Actually I am none of those. Quit determining the value of a message by how much you may hate someone for biggoted reasons or how many posts they have and you might see someone wants to help you. I find it amazing how much the people here are behaving like wellfare masses. They become absolutely rabid when someone mentions a different political idea to change the system. And we have allready seen a willingness on behalf of two posters here to screw over kids just to put two tags back into the general draw system. Lets play a simple game of follow the leader.

These are serious questions so please answer and I will follow with very real questions and answers.

Who wants more deer tags available for purchase?
 
"Save a "little" money for a "couple" of years my butt! Look at what those tags sell for and tell me how many years and how much a year they would have to save to be in the running for one of those six digit priced tags!!! You are out to lunch if you are calling those kind of people "middle class"!"

You are exagerating. Only some of the tags are six digits. The majority of them are 4 digits. If all 500+ were six digits the state would auction them themselves and there would never be a budget shortage in the wildlife dept.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-12 AT 02:57PM (MST)[p]Tristate-

We actually the determined the "value of your message" (or lack thereof) based upon the substance of your comments.

You have already embarrassed yourself and demonstrated your complete ignorance. Please go back to your taxidermy work and spare the rest of us from your incoherent arguments. I am ashamed to admit that I played your game . . . but like I already said, I was bored.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
"He must be a guide if his "clients have purchased" these tags."

Those damn evil guides. God forbid someone make money on hunting. But really no I am not a guide, as if that matters.
 
"This may come as a surprise to you but I am one of those "poor kids who grew up and made some money on their own through hard work." Luckily, I grew up in a time when you did not need to have bunch of money in order to hunt. Do I consider myself rich today? No. But I could probably buy an auction tag every year if chose to spend my money that way. I don't do that for a number of reasons, one of which is I do not believe that it would be right to jump to the front of the line year-after-year just because I might be able to write a check. Why should I have any more opportunity to hunt than any other hard working sportsman?"

That's awesome. If you don't believe in something then don't bid. Thats the great thing about capitolism. You vote with your dollar, but don't be mad at the other people who do believe in it. If more and more people disagree with the system and opt out of it then the tags will become cheaper and cheaper. One thing that will amaze you is many times at those auctions the buyer of the tag gives it to someone else. A lot of those rich people have really big hearts. I have personaly seen a bighorn tag bought and then given to someone else that wasn't even a relative of that person.
 
"You have already embarrassed yourself and demonstrated your complete ignorance."

Really I think you took that award when you decided two more draw tags were more important than teaching kids about archery.
 
"Plus you need to realize that there is a huge majority of middle-class people who live paycheck to paycheck and can barely afford a general tag. Due to people like you who think auctioning tags is so wonderful, Obviously is not the majority."

Auction tags have ZERO effect on the financial situation of the middle class that live paycheck to paycheck. And the states do not determine the price of over the counter tags based on how much the tags at auction bring. Do not be foolish.
 
Where did you come up with this 500+ tag crap? We're talking about the auction tags and then I believe there are 200 raffle tags that we aren't even talking about! You seem to know so much about these tags, so why don't you give us a list of all of them and how much each one went for Mr. Tag Expert!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-12 AT 03:17PM (MST)[p]31 posts this week from this newbie and every friggin one of them have been assinine posts on just two threads trying to stir everything up and he's done a good job of it! And this from a guy that told me I was on the site too much and to get a life, LOL! Congrats go out to tristate, the new azzclown of the site!!!
 
Tristate said: "Really I think you took that award when you decided two more draw tags were more important than teaching kids about archery."

LOL! Yes, I am one of the two infamous posters that is willing to "screw over kids" by returning 2 of the 500+ Utah wealth tags back to the general draw. I forgot that the only way to educate children and get them involved in archery and hunting is to set aside hundreds of tags so that conservation groups can fund programs.

Heaven forbid a father and his son draw a tag in the general draw and go hunting together. That's what worked for me and my father but Tristate has a better idea.


Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
"31 posts this week from this newbie and every friggin one of them have been assinine posts on just two threads trying to stir everything up and he's done a good job of it! Congrats go out to the new azzclown of the site!!!"

Actually that's a lie but I expect nothing less from you. Post counting is all you have left to attack me with. I finaly proved the conservation model useless and that this was all about class warfare. All you have left is post counts. Simply childish.
 
Heaven forbid a father and his son draw a tag in the general draw and go hunting together. That's what worked for me and my father but Tristate has a better idea.

One tag introduced one kid to the shooting sports. The money from two tags introduced several dozen to the shooting sports. Sounds like one is getting more bang for the buck.
 
Tristate-

I surrender. You are officially beyond help. Good luck in your quest to further commercialize hunting and convert all of us lazy, entitled, socialistic hunters into true sportsmen like yourself.

I have to get back to work now and I suggest you do the same so as to avoid future complaints from your taxidermy clients.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
I believe Tristate is a taxidermist in Houston TX. He is really good at getting everybody riled up. You have to give him credit for that. That is about all I would give him credit for.

Just for clarification?
The definition of welfare: financial or other assistance to an individual or family from a city, state, or national government.
Giving tags (i.e. financial assistance) to a group (i.e. SFW) is much closer to the definition of welfare than people who own the animals (public trust doctrine) trying to maintain dominion and control over their assets.

Am I missing something here?

Tristate = Troll
Funny that he shows up on MM to defend a poacher and now tells anybody against the tag grab that they are greedy welfare hunters.

He is entitled to his opinion.
 
+1 Hawkeye His business must be awful slow right now or maybe he already got all the eyeballs glued in for the day! He sure is taking a lot of time out of his sixty hour work week to keep posting all his BS, but maybe he's on the SFW clock right now, LOL!
 
>Some people don't call millions of
>dollars "peanuts" and they are
>two completely different subjects, both
>of which need to be
>dealt with, along with a
>lot of other stuff like
>this UN Arms Treaty that
>is being kicked around right
>now!

Topgun ofcourse you are right, most people don't call millions of dollars peanuts.

But those tag moneys really are peanuts compared to the hundreds of billions of of dollars worth of carbon that is going to be taken out of public lands in Utah over the next 15 or 20 years.

My point is we really don't need to be auctioning tags to raise moneys to help with wild life enhancement projects.

Just think if every vendor on that boycott list posted above was to work together and partner with the companies that are going to develope these fields.

Sec Ken Salazar is likely to sign off on the go ahead for 2 or 3 more of these projects before the election.

Now is the time for the hunting community to come together and put them selves out there as the ones to mitigate these environmental issues. Not some of the same old people who have no love for the hunting lifestyle.

MIDAGATE = REAL MONEY
 
Yep, and his opinion sucks wind!!! You are correct in that's where he is and what he does, so he must have flunked out and couldn't make a living in his conservation/biologist jobs! He also hates all gubmint workers as he called them in a few emails I had back and forth with him this week to try and keep things off the Forums, but that's another whole rant of his!
 
"I have to get back to work now and I suggest you do the same so as to avoid future complaints from your taxidermy clients."

Actually we finished our weeks quota at about 2 pm today. But we'll be back here monday making sure we stay on top of the hill.
 
"Giving tags (i.e. financial assistance) to a group (i.e. SFW) is much closer to the definition of welfare than people who own the animals (public trust doctrine) trying to maintain dominion and control over their assets.

Am I missing something here?"

Yes you are missing something. As much as you hate them the SFW and the individuals that purchase the tags are people too.
 
"You are correct in that's where he is and what he does, so he must have flunked out and couldn't make a living in his conservation/biologist jobs!"

Nope just liked doing the taxidermy a lot more. Fit my personality a lot more. Its funny to watch your childish assumptions stoop to the lowest choice you can come up with. Did taxidermy for a job all through four years of college. Graduated and went straight into deer management. Found out that business wasn't as gratifying as I thought it would be and that missed doing the taxidermy. Hung it up and started my own shop. That was 14 years ago and now we are one of the largest shops in Houston. If you ever come here it is a shop worth going out of your way to see and all are welcome here anytime.
 
My point was to highlight that ALL hunters have options. A poor hunter can get his 99 cent rain poncho at Cabelas (an EXPO exhibitor) or somewhere else. A guy can hunt with outfitters with a good word of mouth reputation or go with one from the expo that values marketing exposure over execution. A person can buy a Toyota in Utah or opt for a Ford. A person can shoot a PSE or a Hoyt. A person can buy a raffle tag (AKA conservation tag ....LOL) or stand with other hunters and skip it and see those publicly owned tags go back into the public draw where they belong. Everyone has options, not just the guys in the booths with the polo shirts with the iron-on antlers.

And as for this being class warfare....there are dozens of attorneys, CPA's, MBAs, doctors and wealthy business people that disagree with wealth tags. Just because someone has money doesnt mean they lack principles. Some of the most intelligent advocates against wealth tags have no educational or business pedigree, they are just smart guys that were brought up right. Many of these people monitor and actively push back against the evil forces working to privatize western hunting on a daily basis. The Kool Aid drinkers would like you to believe that these people are a small minority, they are not. People making comments like Tristate only highlight the attitudes that will help to bring these organizations down. Ask yourself, if Tristate and Hawkeye both owned a store, which one would you buy stuff from. Regular hunters, even poor ones, have more power than they think and they need to use it sooner than later.

Maybe I am delusional but I think Utah can get their tag situation back in order. I have a hard time believing a small group of potbellied punks that resist transparancy of any kind will continue to screw over the larger hunting family. Groups like SFW need to know that the greater public that owns these tags are onto them. Call them CMWU, conservation, legislation, welfare, baby daddy tags, super tags.....they are all limited "rear" entry tags in my book....Utah hunters need to quit grabbing their ankles for these pukes. This storm aint gonna blow over any time soon and it aint gonna end because some taxidemist Birdmans this thread with jibberish.

Resolution #1 for me - Shop at Sportsmans Warehouse this year and let everyone I know hear about why.

Ryan
 
"And as for this being class warfare....there are dozens of attorneys, CPA's, MBAs, doctors and wealthy business people that disagree with wealth tags."

Yeah I know a wealthy attorney that's all for class warfare too. He's your president. Class warfare isn't just a weapon of the poor plenty of people have gotten filthy rich off of it.

"Just because someone has money doesnt mean they lack principles. Some of the most intelligent advocates against wealth tags have no educational or business pedigree, they are just smart guys that were brought up right."

That's why you participate in calling them "wealth tags"???? Because so many people relate wealth to positive things??? That's class warfare and you know it.


"Many of these people monitor and actively push back against the evil forces working to privatize western hunting on a daily basis."

What is the opposition to privatized??? Bingo! The answer is socialized. Yes, you are fighting for socialism"

"The Kool Aid drinkers would like you to believe that these people are a small minority, they are not. People making comments like Tristate only highlight the attitudes that will help to bring these organizations down. Ask yourself, if Tristate and Hawkeye both owned a store, which one would you buy stuff from. Regular hunters, even poor ones, have more power than they think and they need to use it sooner than later."

I do own a store and all you have to walk in and buy something. They have had a lot of stores like Hawkeye's model. Right before the USSR fell you would weight in long lines to be assigned a number and then they would draw for who got bread. It was just like deer tags are issued now and tons of people night after night went home hungry.

I agree with you that all those hunters have more power than they think. And I want them to make great changes to the system so there can be a lot more opportunity for them too. Puting tags back into the welfare system isn't the answer though.
 
Like I said, the conservation tags are much more in line with welfare than people wanting control over their assets. When the government agency (IRS) takes your money (taxes) and gives it to a private citizen that is welfare but when a government agency Division of wildlife) takes your assets (wildlife) and gives it to a private organization that is not welfare? Are you implying that because SFW is made up of people it can't be welfare? I never mentioned the people who buy the tags, that is something you brought up. They are simply following the system in place. Just because SFW are/is made up of "people" doesn't mean it's not welfare for SFW. After all, the people who receive welfare are also "people". Welfare is welfare it's pretty simple...Spin how you want. I have no personal axe to grind with you. Glad you have everything figured out. Good luck on your hunts this year.
 
You make good points about the sfw and welfare. However you don't recognize what is going on. The sfw has joined forces with the state to dodge the NACM. But they have to look like your sacred NACM is relevant. But the goal of moving tags onto the open market and away frOm the welfare draws is achieved. You keep thinking the NAM is real. that is what you are supposed to do when you are on welfare. Keep believing, and the people who know better will use it against you.
 
Your thoughts are so backwards on this that it is absolutely ludicrous. How you could have ever gone through schooland have a degree in the field you mentioned is also unbelievable. Did you by chance get one of those study at home on the computer degrees because if you had professed any of this BS in school during classes they would have laughed you right out of the place!
 
You actually make a good point. When you are in college most of the academics do believe the conservation model. Not all but most. But that is the logic of coaches who never played. Once you move into the private sector and start working you realize that for the most part the idealistic views they tried to teach don't really work for the real world. It's kind of like the last election. All the college kids voted for Obama and pie in the sky. Every body that didn't belong in a union and worked in the private sector didn't.
 
ok i'll bite. Tristate you really are suckered into the way sfw wants people to see "their" point of view, a lot of others do and have been as well. Now with your question about the 7k going to help promote youth archers. Their are far better ways to generate money to help encourage kids and new hunters into our sport, like special youth tags and hunts, clinics for youths ( AZ does this without taking tags) and mentor programs. The tags do go to a very select few, and yes I am one of those that could actually buy any of these tags. So i say the sfw can shove that 7k!

They want you and others to think that they are doing a great job with the money they receive from these tags, but what about the rest of it? Now if they were to give up lets say 90% of the hundreds of thousands these tags generate to promote the sport then i would say good on sfw for doing something great. but they only give 7k???? Seems pretty chicken chit to me!


I just call em as I see em!
 
The 7k project is only one project they did. It does not account for all of their projects. I was only trying to simplify numbers in dollars compared to a couple of tags. I am sure if we broke everything down in some form of audit everyone here would understand. As for issuing tags for kids i am all for it. There are two problems with that though. One you already know there ain't near enough tags to supply kids so for now we have to find ways to bring kids into hunting that is not lethal. Second you are training children to be content with the same welfare system that is failing you now. How come no one here is yelling for better game management to actually increase populations of game animals ad therefore more tags? Like I said before as long as the hunters keep fighting amongst each other then the government will be more than content with never changing the problem.
 
Tristate,

You seem a bit confused on a few points.

Lets start at the start to see who is riding coat-tails on the publics wildlife resources...and who is receiving what from whom in the form of "welfare".

The entire idea of auction tags, raffle tags, governors tags etc. is a very new concept.

The ONLY reason that any group, governor, or state is able to auction a permit is because of the AVERAGE JOE HUNTER. For many decades before there was a such thing as a governors tag, an auction tag, or a raffle tag all that existed was ONE form of tags. Those being PUBLIC tags issued through a lottery or purchased OTC. Those permits were distributed evenly through a random draw and/or available to ALL sportsmen.

The money raised through the sale of those licenses funded 100% of the various state Game and Fish Agencies. That money created the vast amounts of wildlife resources that we all argue about today. But, what cant be argued, is the fact that for decades we (average sportsmen) did all the funding, did all the legwork, and essentially did all the heavy lifting to create everything to do with wildlife.

Now, the johnie-come-latelys like you and Don Peay come along trying to "tell us something" about how we(average hunters) are welfare cases.

Nothing can be farther from the truth, in particular when its SFW and similar groups who are benefitting (receiving welfare) from the publics wildlife resources that were created by others hard work.

I've grown tired of people like you whining about the NAM and the average joe hunters. The average guys rightfully should demand that the publics resources stay within reach of the average guy...they did all the work and paid all the bills, and thats just a fact.
 
F%#@ it. TRISTATE you do conservatives / free market capitalists
proud.

Carry on troll






2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
Wow Buzz, that was completely incorrect? First, you forget the SFW are people also and they have just as much voice politically as you do in how YOUR public resource is utilized. Second I have never "whined" about NAM. I simply informed you of the truth. It is simply a propaganda tool to keep less fortunate hunters optimistic about the bull that the government feeds them. when politicians write laws rarely do they pay any attention to your sacred conservation model. As for your idea that the hunters paid for all the expenses of tHe state wildlife agencies with license and tag fees, I want whatever your smoking. Most state wildlife agencies couldn't operate for a full month if all they had was revenue from state license and tag fees. You need to quit gobbling up the bull you've been fed for years, realize just because someone disagrees with your hunting plan doesn't mean they aren't a person with a vote too, and actually start thinking constructively to change your position before your children are in worse shape than you.
 
Tristate,

You're wrong, most all states receive nearly all their operating budgets from the sale of licenses.

Maybe instead of posting a bunch of BS, try posting up some facts to prove the lame points you're failing to make.

For the record, I sit on the WGBGLC committee and I see exactly, to the penny, how much money is generated through the sale of the Wyoming Governors tags. The committee also decides where that money is spent. So before you make another half-baked response regarding G&F budgets, you may want to keep that in mind. The money raised by those license sales pales in comparison to the money generated through the sale of resident and non-resident hunting/fishing/trapping licenses. Thats true in most all states. If you have evidence to the contrary, by all means post it up. I've a good idea that you wont be posting anything to do with actual data and numbers...

Finally, not sure what you're referring to with this:start thinking constructively to change your position before your children are in worse shape than you.

MY PUBLIC WILDLIFE is in great shape thanks to the average guys that have created the vast wildlife resources we have.

I'm in pretty bad shape hunting wise...I'll try to remember that when I'm in AZ this December hunting Desert Sheep on a tag I drew through the public draw. Desert sheep that found their way to the mountain via the efforts and money that the average joe hunters of the past put into the resource. Long before an auction tag, raffle tag, or governors tag existed.
 
I have no dog in this fight and it has been an interesting and entertaining event......I know........ I should just STFU and enjoy the show.

Messed up as California DFG and State Govt is, we have NOTHING that is even close to this kind of BS ......associated with auction tags, raffle tags, etc.

We obviously do not have the animal population/hunting opportunity issues either, but what we do have, seems pretty sanitary by comparison.

There are some landowner tags that sort of stink up the place, but I seriously doubt there is ANY comparable situation to THIS topic.

My personal opinion......The Utah system is an out of control freight train, heading in a completely wrong direction.....and picking up speed!

I am kind of surprised that a bunch of "nature fakers" haven't weighed in on the commercialization of Utah's wildlife.

Thanks for the thread.

"I could eat a bowl of Alphabet Soup and
sh!t a better argument than that!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-12 AT 09:17AM (MST)[p]"For the record, I sit on the WGBGLC committee and I see exactly, to the penny, how much money is generated through the sale of the Wyoming Governors tags. The committee also decides where that money is spent. So before you make another half-baked response regarding G&F budgets, you may want to keep that in mind. The money raised by those license sales pales in comparison to the money generated through the sale of resident and non-resident hunting/fishing/trapping licenses. Thats true in most all states. If you have evidence to the contrary, by all means post it up. I've a good idea that you wont be posting anything to do with actual data and numbers..."

Excellent now we can get some answers. Why don't you tell me to the exact penny how much money the governor's tags raised for Wyoming last year. Then to the penny why don't you tell us the annual state budget for Wyoming wildlife law enforcement.

"Finally, not sure what you're referring to with this:start thinking constructively to change your position before your children are in worse shape than you.

MY PUBLIC WILDLIFE is in great shape thanks to the average guys that have created the vast wildlife resources we have."

I am not talking about what you have, I am speeking of the future. Do you think the human population of Wyoming is going to go down in the next 30 years. What do you think the wildlife population is going to do over the next 30 years? First of all nobody should be satisfied with what they have until there are so many healthy deer that no one has to weight for a deer tag and second only a lazy person sits back and says "well I got my sheep tag so the system must be working good enough".

Best luck on the sheep hunt though.
 
So if a archery shop gets a few kids in to hunting, they should get some free tags too. That is the reasoning for having more tags to sell, is to get more kids into the hunting way of life so then they can BUY more of the tags they take away from the general draw. Sorry but that doesn't track well.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
tristate,

Not a problem...the Governors tags raised a total of $334,265.

The total license sales from us "welfare hunters" was $32,808,709. Us "welfare hunters" also shelled out another $3,865,110 in preference point sales. Also pitched in another $792,263 in conservation stamps.

People registering their boats spent more than what was raised by Governors tags at $374,878.

AccessYes donations...which are a voluntarily paid by sportsmen at Point of Sale locations raised $909,492. Not bad for a bunch of welfare outdoorsmen.

Its plenty obvious who has, and is, funding the lions share...and anyone with a single firing brain cell can find this information.
 
Not a problem...the Governors tags raised a total of $334,265.

The total license sales from us "welfare hunters" was $32,808,709. Us "welfare hunters" also shelled out another $3,865,110 in preference point sales. Also pitched in another $792,263 in conservation stamps.

People registering their boats spent more than what was raised by Governors tags at $374,878.

AccessYes donations...which are a voluntarily paid by sportsmen at Point of Sale locations raised $909,492. Not bad for a bunch of welfare outdoorsmen.

Its plenty obvious who has, and is, funding the lions share...and anyone with a single firing brain cell can find this information.




You still dodged the part of the question. What is the annual state budget for Wildlife law enforcement in Wyoming?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-12 AT 10:06AM (MST)[p]Tristate said,

First of all nobody should be satisfied with what they have until there are so many healthy deer that no one has to weight for a deer tag and second only a lazy person sits back and says "well I got my sheep tag so the system must be working good enough".

When did you hear me say I'm satisfied with whats going on with wildlife currently?

I'm not, thats why I oppose tag grabs by groups like SFW...and why I support, financially and otherwise, groups that endorse the NAM. I belong to many groups that endorse same.

I attend meetings, write letters, sit on committees, etc. to make sure that wildlife is there for ALL sportsmen, not just those with fat wallets.

Also, I've drawn many great tags...Moose, Goat, Breaks Elk in Montana...Muskox in Alaska, LQ antelope, elk, and deer in several states including Arizona, New Mexico, Montana, and Wyoming. I've also contributed thousands in license sales in states that I've never even hunted. I'm also donating a great AZ bull elk tag I've drawn this year to Hunt of a Lifetime...so a child with a life-threatening condition will be able to experience an elk hunt...again not bad for a welfare hunter.

The sport has been good to me...and I want to make sure that future generations have the same equal access to MY PUBLIC WILDLIFE. The only system that will ever ensure that is the NAM...period.
 
tristate,

I'm not going to spoon-feed you your mush.

Look up the numbers yourself and "tell us something"...
 
By the way a side note while you are trying to figure out how to get around my question buzz, If you do the calculations and if %100 of every bit of that money could go to habitat management projects that would increase populations so that more tags would be available to your residents, guess what you get. 62 CENTS AN ACRE! Thats all the government could do for wildlife in your state in an optimal situation where one hundred percent of the money went to wildlife improvement. 62 CENTS AN ACRE! Like I have been saying. WELFARE!
 
The sport has been good to me...and I want to make sure that future generations have the same equal access to MY PUBLIC WILDLIFE. The only system that will ever ensure that is the NAM...period.

Realy. How did NAM play out for your wolf situation. When it came right down to the nut cutting how much did it realy feel like "your" wildlife when the feds shoved that one down your throat. How much better are elk heards in your state for your future generations? But NAM wouldn't let that happen, right?
 
"tristate,

I'm not going to spoon-feed you your mush.

Look up the numbers yourself and "tell us something"..."


Looks like someone who had all the numbers just realized they didn't add up.
 
The NAM worked well with wolves, in particular Montana and Idaho and even Wyoming.

The Feds didnt "shove" anything down out throats, shows just how out of touch you are with the reality of wildlife in general. Again, do some research on this board, you'll soon find out us average guys are the very group that had the most to say in regard to the state wolf plans. The very plans that are now allowing wolves to be trapped and hunted legally BY ALL SPORTSMEN.

How do you think that happened?

Also, G&F agencies are largely not responsible for, nor do they have any say on how public lands are managed. Two seperate agencies there sport...something a supposed wildlife major should know.

Oh, and elk numbers in WY, ID, and MT are doing great...exactly why average hunters in each state are allowed to kill 2 elk per year in many areas.

Hows that public land elk hunting going for you in Texas?

Laffin'....
 
Tristate, BuzzH pointed out just how insignificant the money raised from auction tags is to the total over all wildlife budget of a State. I was amazed.

So much for the argument that the State needs the money. The State could raise the price of a license or tag by $.50 and raise more money than auction tags bring in.

Quit whoring out the PEOPLES wildlife for your own personal gain.

That's why God made Texas. Buy yourself a ranch, raise your own wildlife and auction it off to the highest bidder, but leave our wildlife alone!

Stealing the common man's wildlife and auctioning it off is your defenition of capitalism? Really?

Eel
 
"The NAM worked well with wolves, in particular Montana and Idaho and even Wyoming.

The Feds didnt "shove" anything down out throats, shows just how out of touch you are with the reality of wildlife in general. Again, do some research on this board, you'll soon find out us average guys are the very group that had the most to say in regard to the state wolf plans. The very plans that are now allowing wolves to be trapped and hunted legally BY ALL SPORTSMEN.

How do you think that happened?"


Denial its not just a river in Egypt anymore.



"Also, G&F agencies are largely not responsible for, nor do they have any say on how public lands are managed. Two seperate agencies there sport...something a supposed wildlife major should know."

El torro doodoo. If you determine the offtake of wildlife then you are the single greatest factor determining wildlife management in an area, period. Have you forgoten that? Plus I was trying to explain you should be taking a more active role in your public grounds, if you aren't now, so that you can increase tag availibility for your future hunting populace. You are copping out for dropping the ball. But that would mean you have to argue with your almighty government for control and they won't like that. You can't argue with them. What if they decide you can't have a blessed deer tag anymore since you were a naughty little subject. No I guess its just easier for you to fight with the other hunters instead.

"Oh, and elk numbers in WY, ID, and MT are doing great...exactly why average hunters in each state are allowed to kill 2 elk per year in many areas."


Really the numbers are still the same where the wolves are?


"Hows that public land elk hunting going for you in Texas?"

Its funny that you bring that up. About 20 years ago the state decided to delist the elk in Texas and they are no longer a game animal. Ever since the government got out of the elk business here the elk numbers have exploded on the private properties in west Texas. Now I know you are thinking I am talking about the high fence places that are raising elk as chattle but I am not. I am talking about wild elk running around in way west Texas jumping fences, making babies, and expanding their ranges. Antler quality is great too. Now on public areas where the state has desert bighorns they are whiping out the elk. I bet NAM is going to step up and save them though. I think you actually just added more weight to my arguement that this socialized welfare model for wildlife is a complete Failure. The minute the state took its hands off of state elk management the herds have gotten better and better. Maybe you could take some notes and make your state a better place for wildlife. By the way when anybody wants to hunt an elk in this state they don't have to pray that their government will permit them too. It almost feels like freedom. Do you remember what that was like Buzz?
 
Right from the Wyoming G&F website:

Wyoming Game and Fish Department
gets 80% of its funding from license fees or
federal excise taxes on hunting and fishing
equipment. Only 6% of its revenue comes
from general funds, with the remainder
derived from registration fees, product sales,
publications, and other sources. For over
100 years, hunters and anglers have provided
nearly all of
the financial
resources to
support the
management
of all species of
wildlife.
 
I tried like a sumbitch to step away from this drivel tristate
is spouting but you can only hear so much B.S. before you need to check this idiocy.

Tri the wealth tags in Utah are putting about 3 mill per year on the ground via the watershed initiative. By way of comparison Pittman Robertson funding is around 5.8 million. Almost double.
Keep in mind the watershed uses matching FEDERAL FUNDS.

Some of you will espouse the Capitalistic free market system to a fault. It's the only way right?? Problem is under that system all hand outs that trend to the bottom will equal welfare while all hand outs that go to the top are incentives?? whats the difference?? A hand out is a freaking hand out and will have to be paid by some group usually the majority meaning the middle class. It's all welfare because someone else is paying your way weather you are in the top or bottom 1% you are being subsidized.

Concerning your opinion about the NAWCM. Again you are hypocritical. If it wasn't for this model you wouldn't be working as a taxidermist because there wouldn't be any big game to take care of. The MODEL REQUIRES SCIENCE BASED MANAGEMENT. Under your wolf argument you are promoting ANYTHING BUT scientific management. Pure hyperbole and strawman B.S. at it's best.

It's long been a hot button of mine to hear those that despise anything that is not of an individual nature bad mouth all that society provides for them. You want to be an individual and want no part of any govt. or societal intervention?? I hear land in Somalia is selling really cheap. Thank the Lord your idiocy didn't fly with the greatest generation. If it did my little rant sure as $hit wouldn't be written in English.






2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-12 AT 11:38AM (MST)[p]To squelch more of his BS about how elk are booming all over Texas, this distribution statement on elk was taken right off the Texas Wildlife & Parks website. It's rather ironic how this guy can come up with his BS that is so easily refuted! There is no hunting season on them in Texas and on high fence ranches they are considered exotics and can be shot year around:

Distribution
In Texas, Elk were once present only in the Guadalupe Mountains. Now, five small herds of wild Elk live in Texas, in the Guadalupe Mountains, Glass Mountains, Wylie Mountains, Davis Mountains, and Eagle Mountains. Many others are kept on ranches all over the state.
 
"Wyoming Game and Fish Department
gets 80% of its funding from license fees or
federal excise taxes on hunting and fishing
equipment. Only 6% of its revenue comes
from general funds, with the remainder
derived from registration fees, product sales,
publications, and other sources. For over
100 years, hunters and anglers have provided
nearly all of
the financial
resources to
support the
management
of all species of
wildlife."

Buzz says he has the actual number. But he's too afraid to post it. Like I said from the beginning NAM was nothing more than propoganda to post on websites and pamplets, and look what you bring me, a website quote. Even if your post there were the truth it still isn't taling about the other %20 and whose money that was. I suppose it doesn't come from people either. Much like the SFW aren't real people either, or at least just not as important as you. The thing I think is funny about all of this is YOU CAN GO BY A TAG AT ONE OF THOSE AUCTIONS. They won't deny your money. Yours is just as good as anybody elses and why not put a few thousand dollars into helping wildlife instead of $500 for a draw tag.
 
"I tried like a sumbitch to step away from this drivel tristate
is spouting but you can only hear so much B.S. before you need to check this idiocy.

Tri the wealth tags in Utah are putting about 3 mill per year on the ground via the watershed initiative. By way of comparison Pittman Robertson funding is around 5.8 million. Almost double.
Keep in mind the watershed uses matching FEDERAL FUNDS."

I am pretty sure you are proving my point for me that the "wealth tags" are a good thing.

"Some of you will espouse the Capitalistic free market system to a fault. It's the only way right?? Problem is under that system all hand outs that trend to the bottom will equal welfare while all hand outs that go to the top are incentives?? whats the difference?? A hand out is a freaking hand out and will have to be paid by some group usually the majority meaning the middle class. It's all welfare because someone else is paying your way weather you are in the top or bottom 1% you are being subsidized."

How in the world is it going to cost the middle class more whether a deer tag is given away through a draw or auctioned off. In fact the middle class loses more money for wildlife by just giving tha tag away in a draw.

"Concerning your opinion about the NAWCM. Again you are hypocritical. If it wasn't for this model you wouldn't be working as a taxidermist because there wouldn't be any big game to take care of. The MODEL REQUIRES SCIENCE BASED MANAGEMENT. Under your wolf argument you are promoting ANYTHING BUT scientific management. Pure hyperbole and strawman B.S. at it's best."

That's a dumb assumption. I get wildlife shipped in from all over the world in areas where nobody nows What NAWCM even is.

"It's long been a hot button of mine to hear those that despise anything that is not of an individual nature bad mouth all that society provides for them. You want to be an individual and want no part of any govt. or societal intervention?? I hear land in Somalia is selling really cheap. Thank the Lord your idiocy didn't fly with the greatest generation. If it did my little rant sure as $hit wouldn't be written in English."

What kind of melodramatic garbage was that?
 
In your own words

"How am I personaly attacking you? And yes NAM is feel good propoganda for people to put on websites and brochures, and keep little people as little people because they don't believe they are little people. I am not attacking people who wait around dreaming of an opportunity to get a hunting tag I am simply telling the truth. Your state governments have turned much of the hunt tag system into a welfare model. In many ways hunters are becoming very similar to ghetto people waiting on government cheese. Except the cheese is a deer tag or a sheep tag. And then they flash NAM in your face and tell you "Isn't this great all this wildlife is yours". Meanwhile you are rarely allowed to utilize and enjoy it. And the governments never have to step up and increase hunting opportunities for you they just have to keep showing you the cheese. Once you actually start dealing with wildlife law you realize how little of it is based on NAM. Go look at the SFW website. On page one they are talkig about giving away $7000 to a youth archery program. Do you think over the counter tags, and draws are going to fund that? And that's the future of your sport, and you want to cut them out so you can have a couple of extra opportunities at a tag. Selfish! Class warfare is the greatest thing that can happen for these state agencies. The more you fight against other hunters for tags the less pressure is on them to do one damn thing to improve hunting opportunities for you."

Now let me ask you this, does SFW produce anything or are they a funnel for other peoples money??

Welfare?? Do the have their hands out??

Ghetto's and living off cheese? Pot meet kettle!!



2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-12 AT 12:07PM (MST)[p]"Buzz says he has the actual number. But he's too afraid to post it. Like I said from the beginning NAM was nothing more than propoganda to post on websites and pamplets, and look what you bring me, a website quote. Even if your post there were the truth it still isn't taling about the other %20 and whose money that was. I suppose it doesn't come from people either. Much like the SFW aren't real people either, or at least just not as important as you. The thing I think is funny about all of this is YOU CAN GO BY A TAG AT ONE OF THOSE AUCTIONS. They won't deny your money. Yours is just as good as anybody elses and why not put a few thousand dollars into helping wildlife instead of $500 for a draw tag.

***You know you're so full of chit that I can smell it in the SW breeze coming up here from Texas today, LOL! Who care what the total budget number is when all we need to know is where the money for it comes from each year. I posted that information and all but 6% that's coming from the general fund (all taxpayers)is coming from people using the natural resources, whether it be hunting, fishing, ATVers, or whatever. You are so typical where you pick one little sentence here and there and try to twist and turn it to prove a point, but you are very poor at it and everything you post is being easily refuted and proved incorrect by several of us. It's amazing with your purported schooling and all the knowledge you say you possess that you are so fudged up!!! Now you have come up with the final straw and sound like the top SFW folk when you say ANY of us can buy those auction tags! Yea right, if a lot of us took out a second mortage on our homes or sold our first born, LOL! Why don't you go take a hike, as you have proved your point and that is that it's right on the top of your head!!!
 
Distribution
In Texas, Elk were once present only in the Guadalupe Mountains. Now, five small herds of wild Elk live in Texas, in the Guadalupe Mountains, Glass Mountains, Wylie Mountains, Davis Mountains, and Eagle Mountains. Many others are kept on ranches all over the state.


What do you know? TP&W aren't current with their distribution estimates on a species they aren't spending any money on. There are several places that have elk heards that aren't on that list. For instance there are elk in the Sierra Diablos but the state is trying to get them killed out of there for their bighorn project. Also the elk heards in the Guadalupe mountians are pretty much gone. Somebody got the bright idea that the Guadalupe mountians should be taken back to a pristeen condition and they removed all of the water resources out of there. So most of the elk left there. Some are located in surounding ranches while some populations might have headed into the Hueco mountians and the Baylors. I know I had four wild elk come in last year from areas that aren't on your list there. I can guarantee you there are more elk in west texas now than there have been since statewide deregulation.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-12 AT 12:12PM (MST)[p]Now let me ask you this, does SFW produce anything or are they a funnel for other peoples money??

Welfare?? Do the have their hands out??

Ghetto's and living off cheese? Pot meet kettle!!


Looks like they produce revenue for wildlife, and projects for sportsmen if you ask me. Looks like they do more with less than any government agency could pull off. KETTLE MEET THE CRYSTAL!!


Come on its time for a little honesty. You can go buy an over the counter tag and go hunting. SFW won't stop you from doing that. So what is it you want? Please respond with an honest answer.
 

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