HERE WE GO!!!

This is what they are Quick to Claim:

And I Quote:

The regulations establish buffer zones as large as 3 miles in diameter around sage grouse "leks," the traditional breeding grounds for the bird whose numbers have dwindled from 16 million to between 500,000 and 200,000 due in large part to wildfires, mining, livestock grazing and other development.

So?

I know a couple places where the Sage Chickens live that None of these Excuses Hold any Truth too!

Yes,The LEKS/Birds I'm Talking about are down in numbers as well!

But none of the Reasons they Listed above have affected the Birds I'm talkin about!

So dude?NEMONT?Whoever?

What Gives?

How GAWD-DAMNED Much Money we gonna waste on these Birds?

JFP!!!



[font color="blue"]"This is the USA where people get Paid to Watch
People that are
Watching You!"[/font]
 
....as much as it takes bess...to get you to move to SLC, stfu...and do as you are told
 
The answer to the sage grouse problem is to "give the land 'back' to the states" like Ivory, Bishop, Heber et al want. They will sell it off and cut it up for their friends and the pesky bird will finish disappearing. Problem solved.



[font color="blue"]I don't make the soup,I just stir it.[/font]
 
We are going to spend a bunch of taxpayer money on both sides for Utah to lose their fight.

I live in one of the core areas targeted for Sage Grouse preservation. I already have a boomer on the wall that my kid shot so I don't hunt them any more.

Care to bet if Utah prevails in this lawsuit?

Nemont
 
Utah will lose just like the timber companies who sued over the spotted owl.

It's kind of funny. We preserved all the spotted owl habitat in California and last summer big chunks of owl habitat went up in flames from forest fires. They couldn't even get in there to build fire breaks because of the no new road policy. Cracked me up.

Fish & Wildlife should be jailed like Bundy.

We really are educated above our intelligence.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-16 AT 10:02AM (MST)[p]So spotted owl evolved in forests that didn't burn? Why did God give them wings?

Isn't fire part of the natural forest cycle or am I missing something?



Nemont
 
Nemont,

Yes you are missing something. The USFS has been putting out fires for over 100 years and let a big share of our national forests that have been protected so long that the massive fuel buildup has created a monster for the agencies. We have seen hundreds of thousand acres burned hot and the landscape forever altered. The 300,000 acre Whitewater Baldy fire of 2012 in the Gila made a tremendous mess because how much fuel buildup that ignited. The pyroclastic explosion absolutely blew down hundreds of acres of big Spruce and Doug Fir trees all in one direction, the fire doubled in size and forest will never ever be the same or recover from the devastation. We lost the largest Aspen trees on the planet during that fire on the back side of Willow Mtn. in the wilderness. The 500,000 Acre Wallow fire in 2011 in AZ and NM made a huge mess out of especially the Escudilla Wilderness area and mountain. The aspen regrowth and the locust bush infestation is making much of these hot fire areas impossible to hunt.

The spotted owl has never needed old growth forest to survive. They exist in all types of terrain here in from the lower elevations to the higher reaches of the Forest. The Gila National Forest did a huge costly study before the Clinton Babbitt administration took over and guess what? The study showed that the spotted owls were alive, healthy, well and were throughout the whole forest. How do I know? I packed the biologists on two different occasions into the Gila Wilderness and know exactly what they found. Why did God give them wings. So they could avoid dumb ass people like you. Give me a break.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-16 AT 10:40AM (MST)[p]>Nemont,
>
>Yes you are missing something. The
>USFS has been putting out
>fires for over 100 years
>and let a big share
>of our national forests that
>have been protected so long
>that the massive fuel buildup
>has created a monster for
>the agencies. We have seen
>hundreds of thousand acres burned
>hot and the landscape forever
>altered. The 300,000 acre Whitewater
>Baldy fire of 2012 in
>the Gila made a tremendous
>mess because how much fuel
>buildup that ignited. The pyroclastic
>explosion absolutely blew down hundreds
>of acres of big Spruce
>and Doug Fir trees all
>in one direction, the fire
>doubled in size and forest
>will never ever be the
>same or recover from the
>devastation. We lost the largest
>Aspen trees on the planet
>during that fire on the
>back side of Willow Mtn.
>in the wilderness. The 500,000
>Acre Wallow fire in 2011
>in AZ and NM made
>a huge mess out of
>especially the Escudilla Wilderness area
>and mountain. The aspen regrowth
>and the locust bush infestation
>is making much of these
>hot fire areas impossible to
>hunt.
>
>The spotted owl has never needed
>old growth forest to survive.
>They exist in all types
>of terrain here in from
>the lower elevations to the
>higher reaches of the Forest.
>The Gila National Forest did
>a huge costly study before
>the Clinton Babbitt administration took
>over and guess what? The
>study showed that the spotted
>owls were alive, healthy, well
>and were throughout the whole
>forest. How do I know?
>I packed the biologists on
>two different occasions into the
>Gila Wilderness and know exactly
>what they found. Why did
>God give them wings. So
>they could avoid dumb ass
>people like you. Give me
>a break.


you are absolutely right there were several independent studies done that showed the spotted owl nesting in new growth even on the ground but its not about scientific facts with environmentalists its about pandering to people emotions even if its all a lie...

they also killed the logging industry with that farse, while logging companies cleaned up the slash debree well not anymore the slash helps fire start and burn hotter
 
Show me the studies that say logging helped the spotted owl. I am all for logging but I bet you cannot produce a peer reviewed study that says logging old growth timber increase spotted owl habitat.


I get it that the FS fought fires and there was fuels that reached higher temps then what would have happened had they let nature take it's course.

Are you sure the only thing that killed logging was the spotted owl?

You realize slash is created by logging right? That is why there are slash piles.

If you want to fight the environmentalist you need some science on your side not anecdotes about what you believe and how much you hate liberals.

So please link me the peer reviewed studies that show the data you all claim as fact.

Nemont
 
The owl was listed 26yrs ago and put the kibosh on logging in the northwest. I bet there thriving today since logging was what was driving them to extinction. How much has their population increased?
 
Ne,

I haven't tried to dig into the public record in regard to the Spotted Owl Study they performed but will attempt to do so.

What the study said was I believe, that old growth forest was not absolutely necessary for the survival of the spotted owl. I don't think the argument is over whether logging old growth forest produces better spotted owl habitat.

I am absolutely and beyond any doubt sure that the spotted owl stopped most logging on the USFS. I helped the biologists and know some personally and also witnessed the ruination of the logging industry here in the SW on an up close and personal basis. We are seeing a bit of a rebound in the industry with one mill in Reserve operating on a small scale and one at Nutrioso, AZ operating on a small scale. Most of the infrastructure was wiped out from the spotted owl and we won't ever see the national forest logged to any degree here again. Hell the District Ranger and the USFS cannot even harvest the burned timber on these big fires, only along the roads for public safety.

One only has to go across the White Mountain Apache Reservation line to see how a forest should be managed. They log, burn and the whole bit and have a much healthier forest than any of our National Forests. The same with the San Carlos, the Mescalero, the Jicarilla and on and on.

I agree we need some science on our side but the deck has been stacked against us as the other side seems to be able to manipulate the agencies with much of their so called peer reviewed junk science they use to get all of the not so endangered species listed. They are supposed to use "best science practices" but that is and has not been the case in much of the data they use to force the Feds to list and declare critical habitat.
 
Do you have proof that they didn't use the best science practices or are you again just going of your opinions?

Do the Indian Reservations have the same laws and regulations that they are required to comply with? Aren't they supposedly sovereign?

Nemont
 
I remember it well. Simpson Timber Company hired their own biologists to prove spotted owls were doing just fine. They found tons of owls in second growth. They even built wood nest boxes and hung them in young trees. The owls loved them.

The eco freaks said no way, so they sent their own biologists in and also found lots of owls. Oh oh....big problem. They quickly regrouped and said thank you very much for finding all those owls, now we ban logging in that area too. The timber companies shot themselves in the foot.

Any 12 year old kid who spends any time in the woods would know that land that has been clear cut grows back and grows grasses and shrubs that support populations of mice and rats and quail and grouse and chipmunks and squirrels. Guess what spotted owls eat?

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19900828&slug=1090113

The eco freaks went into a blind panic and found a dozen more species they claim are dependent on old growth including Marbled Murrelets and a bunch of salamanders and slugs. The timber companies just caved, knowing Walt Disney had won.
 
I have had this conversation before many times and years ago, I can't find the independent videos anymore on youtube, the were there I've seen em myself but they have been deleted as far as I can tell
 
>I remember it well. Simpson Timber
>Company hired their own biologists
>to prove spotted owls were
>doing just fine. They found
>tons of owls in second
>growth. They even built wood
>nest boxes and hung them
>in young trees. The owls
>loved them.
>
>The eco freaks said no way,
>so they sent their own
>biologists in and also found
>lots of owls. Oh oh....big
>problem. They quickly regrouped and
>said thank you very much
>for finding all those owls,
>now we ban logging in
>that area too. The timber
>companies shot themselves in the
>foot.
>
>Any 12 year old kid who
>spends any time in the
>woods would know that land
>that has been clear cut
>grows back and grows grasses
>and shrubs that support populations
>of mice and rats and
>quail and grouse and chipmunks
>and squirrels. Guess what spotted
>owls eat?
>
>http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19900828&slug=1090113
>
>The eco freaks went into a
>blind panic and found a
>dozen more species they claim
>are dependent on old growth
>including Marbled Murrelets and a
>bunch of salamanders and slugs.
>The timber companies just caved,
>knowing Walt Disney had won.
>

ya that is a good eel
 
Here is why you guys lose so consistently on issues that need to be scientifically studied: you never bother to use science.

You have no proof of your allegations, no evidence other then what you hear at coffee or in church meetings.

You use emotions and feelings like a bunch of bent wrist liberals.

Nemont
 
>Here is why you guys lose
>so consistently on issues that
>need to be scientifically studied:
>you never bother to use
>science.
>
>You have no proof of your
>allegations, no evidence other then
>what you hear at coffee
>or in church meetings.
>
>You use emotions and feelings like
>a bunch of bent wrist
>liberals.
>
>Nemont


Answer the question in post 10!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-16 AT 09:47AM (MST)[p]show me the science not just your emotion based observation. Don't act like the liberals you hate. Show me something that says their numbers would be higher if logging continued.

you fake conservatives are so used to losing when it comes to science that you resort acting like liberals.

Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-16 AT 10:38AM (MST)[p]http://gianalytics.org/en/391-oregon-and-the-shot-heard-round-the-world

OREGON AND THE SHOT HEARD ROUND THE WORLD

When I first moved to Oregon I had no idea what was to transpire almost two decades later. The ranching community where I decided to settle is quiet. Little goes on around here except for the occasional cow wandering across the road, or horse escaping to the next pasture to check out the neighbor?s stud. You see, it is open range in these parts and people understand that the critters come first. They have the right of way, and anything else is just secondary. The rancher down the road grazes his cattle on the miles of forestry land in the mountains behind his ranch. The people who lived there before him did the same. Nothing much has changed.

The ranchers that graze their cattle on these lands provide water tanks for all the critters to use. I am an ex equine endurance rider, and love the long, slow, distance rides. When I ride my horse on the dirt roads that abound in the mountains out back, I ride through the cattle. The birds flock all around the area and without the ranchers? constant supply of water, things would be pretty dry around here. This is high desert. Water is precious. Without the water that the ranchers provide I would not be able to ride as far or enjoy the natural surroundings as much as I do. It is peaceful. Quiet. And uneventful.

And then, a shot was fired. The shot heard ?round the world.

A rancher was hunted down and shot like a rabid dog by police in conjunction with the FBI. A rancher not unlike my neighbors around here. A rancher who just wanted to graze his cattle without the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) breathing down his neck, making it next to impossible to do what he had been doing for decades, and for what? So that the land could be used for commercial mining interests? So that the BLM could make a buck in the uranium or gas and oil trade?

While people are ignorantly shouting ?save public land from the cattle and ranchers? and naively think they are saving the Malheur Wildlife Refuge, what the BLM is actually doing with some of the other public lands it was given is leasing them for the almighty dollar to large corporations for their gold, uranium, and any other precious resources that they contain. And do you really think that the BLM agency is ?protecting? the land by allowing it to be raped and poisoned for profit? If you do, then you are part of the problem. You have succumbed to the propaganda. Black is white, white is black, and poisoning the earth is really protecting our natural resources.

The following picture is a portion of the decision on file for the offer of 15,831 acres of public land by the BLM that the agency is ?protecting? for the exploration of its petroleum reserves, located in the Winnemucca, Nevada District. And the findings? No significant impact on the environment, so the deal goes through. The land is raped, poison dumped, and life as we know it in that public land ceases to exist.

A message rang out loud and clear when that shot was fired, killing the rancher who stood up for his rights. That message was ? submit or die. Admit that cattle are bad, land rape is good. If you don't, if you stand up, you will be cut down. Whatever the government says is good, no matter what it says, no matter how it says it, no matter the actions it takes, it is all good. Black is white, white is black, and you have no right to disobey or even question its authority.

But we do. We do have that right. Since when did our nation become a nation that is herded like sheep by tyrants with no other thought than to bully those who only want to live in peace and do what they have been doing for years? Since when did cattle ranching become a crime? How did we allow this to happen? And will we accept the lesson that the government is trying to force down our throats that to obey is the only recourse left to us? I hope not. I hope that each of us finds the courage to stand up for our right to not be bullied. To stand. Not cower in fear. To declare with all of our strength: I will not be moved!

May the Good Lord have our backs in times such as these. I have heard the shot that is echoing around the world. Have you?...


838oil.jpg



wasn't there a endangered desert tortoise down there some where ....
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-16
>AT 09:47?AM (MST)
>
>show me the science not just
>your emotion based observation.
>Don't act like the liberals
>you hate. Show me
>something that says their numbers
>would be higher if logging
>continued.
>
>you fake conservatives are so used
>to losing when it comes
>to science that you resort
>acting like liberals.
>
>Nemont


What I'll show you is fact, not guesstimation from phony models. The fact is the spotted owl population has continued to decline at a rate of 2-3% annually in spite of ceasing old growth timber harvest 26yrs ago. Clearly something else is causing the decline in the spotted owl, and the brilliant ones evidently really don't care to figure out what it is so long as they continue to prevent any timber harvest for profit.
 
Maybe if Our Government would Print/Post More BS He'd(NeMont!) then Believe it?







[font color="blue"]"This is the USA where people get Paid to Watch
People that are
Watching You!"[/font]
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-16 AT 01:04PM (MST)[p]The irony to the link that I posted is that the planting of trees through the central Prairie could likely be the cause of the decline in the northern spotted owl rather than the harvesting of trees in the northwest. Either way we're to blame which is always the message.
 
DW

Go read the full study and get back to me. It isn't whether we should be cutting trees it is about why you guys always lose when it comes data and science.

The fake Conservatives should embrace facts and they would win a few more but the level of knowledge is a readers digest article in NEWSWEEK. Classic

Nemont
 
Watch what happens if and when they knock back the barred owl. Produce anything showing the spotted owl pop has increased since they were listed and the timber industry shut down. Just 1 article.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-16 AT 03:16PM (MST)[p]

Embedded in these links are maps of the distribution of the barred owl and the three sub species of the spotted owl. The two other subspecies of the Spotted owl, the California and the Mexican have remained stable throughout the fall of the northern spotted owl. Cause and effect is one of the simplest scientific principles there is. They theorized the cause of the decline in the Northern Spotted Owl was timber harvest. So they removed the cause, timber harvest, to observe the effect. With the continuing decline of the Spotted Owl since the timber industry was removed it should be clear to an honest biologist it was not the primary cause of the decline and that something else is at play. A more aggressive species occupying the same niche will always crowd out the less aggressive species. Look at the relationship between the white tail and mule deer.


http://www.owlpages.com/owls.php?genus=Strix&species=varia


http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/species/birds/Mexican_spotted_owl/range.html
 
He will never admit they were wrong because part of the goal was to eliminate the timber industry anyway. But the relationship of the arrival of the barred owl directly coinciding with a decline of the northern spotted owl cannot be denied. In the first link I posted it says they arrived in British Columbia in the fifties, Oregon and Washington the 60's and California in the 70's. The Spotted Owl was listed in 91. They continued to decline in spite of the removal of the timber industry. Now they're going to remove the barred owl. We'll see what happens. If they rebound it can't be denied the barred owl is the cause of the decline in the Spotted Owl. But I'll guarantee they will continue to claim the timber harvest was part of the reason.


http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-spotted-owls-new-nemesis-131610387/
 
>We are going to spend a
>bunch of taxpayer money on
>both sides for Utah to
>lose their fight.
>
>I live in one of the
>core areas targeted for Sage
>Grouse preservation. I
>already have a boomer on
>the wall that my kid
>shot so I don't hunt
>them any more.
>
>Care to bet if Utah prevails
>in this lawsuit?
>
>Nemont

Boomer?

Or Bomber?






[font color="blue"]"This is the USA where people get Paid to Watch
People that are
Watching You!"[/font]
 
Might be Spotted Owl Genocide?

Question for NeMont?

I Know a few places Here Locally where the Sage Grouse Are down in Numbers!(Surely Not Endangered Nor Extinct!)

None of the Governments/TreeHuggers main Excuses/Reasons are effecting these Local Birds!

So What you say NeMont?

You're a Smart Man!

What do you really Think is Happening with the Bird that We have Wasted Billions on?

Hint NeMont:You'll have to come up with your Own Science/Answers!

Their Science BS Ideas/Maybe's don't Mean Squat to the Birds I'm Talkin about!

Yes,they're down in numbers but surely surviving!

Just wondering what they'll wanna shut down to bring the Sage Grouse back?

The LEKS/Grouse where I'm Talkin,Well there Ain't much there to shut down!









[font color="blue"]"This is the USA where people get Paid to Watch
People that are
Watching You!"[/font]
 
It is not about the Spotted Owl, The Sage Grouse, the wolf, the Spike Dace/Loach minnow, the Willow fly catcher, the Mountain meadow jumping mouse, the Chiricahua Leopard Spotted frog or any of the thousands of so called endangered species. Its about the control of land. Its about how the public land is managed. Its a paradigm shift. This movement is well on its way to achieving their goal.

Now come the WOTUS or the grab for the control of all waters, even dry washes that run water once in a great while. It is absolutely mind boggling as to what is happening. Our fine EPA at work. Are you proud of them yet Ne?

Big government is gaining control of the people, the land and now the water.

Us so called fake conservatives, as Nemo labels us, at least understand the basic roots of the loss of our basic freedoms and rights.

Onward Christian Soldiers!
 
Bess, in the areas your chickens are dwindling, What are the predator populations like ? Especially Raptors. The number of Birds of Prey keeps going up and up, no more DDT. Other predators,Coyote, Fox,Weasel, Skunk ect..also impact numbers. When were the "High" population numbers gathered.
I would like to know if the "high" number Data might have been collected when Raptor numbers were down, and people Trapped Predators and did it because it was profitable. I understand Habitat issues, and what our dry years have done, But in some places I know of it seems to me that depredation is a HUGE factor.
 
Well StoneFly!

We've Had high Numbers of Small Game Predators Forever!

That's Perty Much Why there Ain't No Pheasant Survival in the Basin!

I Was Waitin for NeMont to Give us the Facts From The Science gathered by FED's that Ain't always Right,Don't know why He hasn't Chimed in?

It's a Combination of many things/Problems & There Ain't nobody gonna make Severe enough Changes to Bring them back!

Yes Stonefly,Raptors are a Big Predator on Small Game,But I don't see the Tweety Bird Lovers ever allowing you to Thin them out!

They Claim they got all the Problems figured out & are Quick to Place Blame,but most of their Blame doesn't take place on a few places these Sage Grouse Inhabit locally!

I do believe it to be a Combination of many Issues just like I've always said about the Mule Deer Herd,many people Blame it all on one Problem when in Fact there are many!

My In Field Science SUCKS according to people like NeMont,but that's OK!





[font color="blue"]"This is the USA where people get Paid to Watch
People that are
Watching You!"[/font]
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-16 AT 08:56AM (MST)[p]Stone/elkass,

You two are so used losing that you don't even try any more. You sound like a bent wrist liberal using emotion to make your argument and whining that you are oppressed. At least DW can read and offer up a good argument using data. Just because you saw a sage grouse doesn't mean $hit.

I live in the center of the "core" habitat for sage grouse. Their listing would be a disaster for agriculture here. Instead of being whine little victims the guys here got ahead of the curve on many fronts.

What you toe idiots cannot figure out that b!tching that you are oppressed is as popular coming from you as when Reverend Al and Jesse start in and it sounds just as stupid to everyone.

Is there government over reach, yes. Did the spotted owl need to be listed, the science said yes. Nobody has been able to prove without a doubt that cutting old growth would benefit the spotted owl. All the whining about being a victim won't change it.

Nemont
 
Ne,

We call it being aware of what is really happening and many of us are very active in trying to turn the tide or at least slow down the big government/radical environmental movement.

You can call it whining , bitching or what ever but for you to let the truth slide all of the time, only strengthens the other side.

The pen is mightier than the sword. What are you doing specifically to help others understand other than make excuses for what is happening. You elude to knowing what may be going on but you aren't providing any specifics as to what we should do.

First of all you have to identify your enemy and what they are trying to do to all of us consumptive users of the public lands. So far you have a failing grade in this department.
 
Ne,

We call it being aware of what is really happening and many of us are very active in trying to turn the tide or at least slow down the big government/radical environmental movement.

You can call it whining , bitching or what ever but for you to let the truth slide all of the time, only strengthens the other side.

The pen is mightier than the sword. What are you doing specifically to help others understand other than make excuses for what is happening. You elude to knowing what may be going on but you aren't providing any specifics as to what we should do.

First of all you have to identify your enemy and what they are trying to do to all of us consumptive users of the public lands. So far you have a failing grade in this department.
 
First off you know you are a loser when you start identifying other American citizens as "your enemy".

I give two $hits Reverand Al, about what you give for grades because I am not the one crying like a victim about being oppressed.

The one sure way to continue your losing streak is to start with all the Sovereign BS and claiming the County Sheriff is the only law enforcer in America.

You are a whiner and act just like the liberals you despise and consider as your enemy.


How about come up with some facts on your side of the argument. You know the kind with DATA and SCIENCE that can be presented in a way that doesn't just say, "I saw a spotted owl once and therefore the population is fine" or "Sage hens still dance on their Leks so they are doing just fine".

West Nile has killed more sage hens then almost any other predator including hunters, yet do you hear anything about it on the side of not listing them? Controlling the vectors for west Nile would do more than killing all the raptors but hey, way easier to take a page form Jesse Jackson's book and cry about oppression and the big bad government.

Bunch of Pu$$ies.

Nemont
 
Good Job NeMont, keep at these two mental giants. We need to good, smart people attempting to school the self serving, zealous and ignorant types so they dont get big ideas that they are not an outspoken minority of our pop.

What bundy's funding website up to now, maybe 360 supporters? In his mind he has the whole country at his back.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-16 AT 10:54AM (MST)[p]DW,

You act like you alone have the answer in the spotted owl vs barred owl issue. I asked if you bothered reading the original and updated plans from the FS? I know quoting Newsweek is easier then reading the science and studies but you should try it sometime.

To Whit:

http://www.fws.gov/oregonfwo/articles.cfm?id=149489595


Reasons for Decline

Prior to the listing of the northern spotted owl, timber harvesting and land conversions resulted in the loss of owl habitat. Forests with the late-successional and old-growth characteristics preferred by spotted owls are also preferred for timber harvesting to meet the demand for all types of forest products. As the amount of suitable habitat declines, so does the number of spotted owls. When spotted owls are forced to live in small patches of forest they become more susceptible to starvation, predation, or further loss of habitat due to natural destruction such as windstorms. More recently, competition from encroaching barred owls also has caused an apparent decline in spotted owls across most of their range. Barred owls are larger than spotted owls and more aggressive and have a broader diet which makes them more resilient to declines in habitat quality.

Conservation Measures

Recovery efforts for the northern spotted owl are helping to reduce habitat loss on federal lands. Although the need for timber necessitates continued harvesting, current forest management practices stress more limited harvesting in old-growth forests and suggest alternate areas for harvest which are less preferred by spotted owls. Careful planning of timber sales and forest conservation are necessary to halt the decline of the spotted owl and other old-growtth species. The Northwest Forest Plan, created in 1994, established a system of late-successional reserves (LSR) across the range of the spotted owl to provide suitable nesting habitat over the long term. The federal forest lands outside these reserves are managed to allow dispersal between the LSRs through riparian reserves and other land allocations. In 2011, we issued a Revised Recovery Plan for the Northern Spotted Owl that contains a wide array of recommendations, including protecting high-quality and occupied spotted owl habitat, actively managing forests to restore their health, and managing competition from the encroaching barred owl. We are currently conducting an experimental removal of barred owls from spotted owl habitat to assess the effect on spotted owls.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-16 AT 11:47AM (MST)[p]

But that's my point, the barred owl, by their own admission has been encroaching on the northern spotted owl since the 50's. They can't definitively say that this encroachment was the problem all along because since they've shut down the timber industry 26yrs ago the northern spotted owl has continued to decline while the other 2 subspecies have remained stable with no encroachment from the barred owl. Had they knocked back the barred owl instead of stopping the timber industry would the northern spotted owl be flourishing today? We cant know this, but if they rebound after knocking back the barred its a legitimate arguement that must be looked at by honest scientists/biologists. Their stance, the one they don't yet voice openly, is anti capitalism. Once they've gained enough power they'll come out of the shadows. To Whit I give you "The Bern"!
 
Ask Stoney if he is in favor of capitalism deciding who gets to graze public lands based on the model of highest return and competition through an open bidding process. If we don't use the free market to maximize grazing fees through competitive bidding why should we expect the free market to be used for harvesting timber?

Do you take Bernie Sanders as a serious person who understands what the word capitalism means? Stay on task here.

Would you support competitive bidding and maximizing the return on public lands based on a bidding process for the chance to recreate, hunt, graze, bird watch, hike, canoe, cut timber etc, etc?

Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-16 AT 12:35PM (MST)[p]>Ask Stoney if he is in
>favor of capitalism deciding who
>gets to graze public lands
>based on the model of
>highest return and competition through
>an open bidding process.
> If we don't use
>the free market to
>maximize grazing fees through competitive
>bidding why should we expect
>the free market to be
>used for harvesting timber?
>
>Do you take Bernie Sanders as
>a serious person who understands
>what the word capitalism means?
> Stay on task here.

Yes I do! And I think he's an unapologetic socialist with lots of support from the Millennials that you hope will save us. They don't give me much faith.


>
>
>Would you support competitive bidding and
>maximizing the return on public
>lands based on a bidding
>process for the chance to
>recreate, hunt, graze, bird watch,
>hike, canoe, cut timber etc,
>etc?
>
>Nemont


No as I don't think that is the intended purpose of federal lands. However those entities should pay their way and be self-supporting. I don't think the Financial imbalance is due to underpricing as much as it is due to bloated oversized government departments. What say you?
 
Which entities? The Forest Service and the BLM? How about increasing the fees hunters pay to access all that public land? Should we start there?

Can you name a government agency that is "self supporting", what about a state agency that doesn't lean on revenue from the public and makes enough off the market to be "self supporting".


We have cut back both the FS budget and the BLM budget and the Parks Budget and then demand they do more. Then guys like you claim the problem is that they spend too much. Be specific, what are they spending too much on.

The FS budget is $4.9 Billion which is $130 million less then the year prior. The estimated economic activity from FS Activity is $36 Billion per year.

The various activities on the NFS contributed over $36 billion to America?s gross domestic product and supported nearly 450,000 jobs.1 Over 68 percent of the contribution to the economy was associated with direct use of National Forest System lands and
resources, including land use fees from privately provided recreation services ? ski areas, outfitting and guiding, campground concessions; expenditures related to skiing, hiking, hunting, fishing, and other forms of outdoor recreation; the generation of energy, minerals, and traditional forest products; and livestock grazing.


Nemont
 
I am all for cutting spending on all government programs. The problem is that the rugged individuals who claim they are the only thing that stands between our government and total anarchy would cry oppression if they give up their government cheese as well.

Why start with the $5 Billion line items? We can save all of the FS and the BLM's budget just by cutting 2% of the Pentagon budget. That would set Ted Cruz's hair of fire if we did that.

Trim 2% from Medicare and social security and we could fully fund all the backlogged maintenance in Yellowstone, Glacier, Yosemite, fund the FS, the BLM and the Bureau of Rec. and not need an increased gas/oil tax to fund the infrastructure bank.

Why not start where the money really is instead of domestic discretionary? Because the goal of the Ted Cruz wing isn't to be efficient it is to get rid of the land and return it to the states which will mean it will not be open to the public for very long.

Nemont
 
I never said I supported the listing, I said go and find the science that validates your argument. You then get into the whole discussion of capitalism and whether the FS is self supporting.

Let's make all the public land subject to capitalism and start bidding on their uses and you will see is really in love with capitalism and who is not. I suspect the ones lining up to whine about having to compete for access would be the rugged individualist cowboys with hunters coming in a close second.

How do you get a little bit of capitalism but not enough to gore somebody's ox?


Nemont
 
>Which entities? The Forest Service
>and the BLM?
>How about increasing the fees
>hunters pay to access all
>that public land? Should
>we start there?
>

Down the rabbit hole we go. Hunters and fisherman self support game and fish dept's who are the stewards of the resource they utilize in their activity.


>Can you name a government agency
>that is "self supporting", what
>about a state agency that
>doesn't lean on revenue from
>the public and makes enough
>off the market to be
>"self supporting".
>
>

Fish and game dept's.


>We have cut back both the
>FS budget and the BLM
>budget and the Parks Budget
>and then demand they do
>more. Then guys
>like you claim the problem
>is that they spend too
>much. Be specific, what
>are they spending too much
>on.
>

Not sure I've ever seen a 10yr old fs, blm, or parks vehicle. Let's start there.


>The FS budget is $4.9 Billion
>which is $130 million less
>then the year prior.
>The estimated economic activity from
>FS Activity is $36 Billion
>per year.
>
>The various activities on the NFS
>contributed over $36 billion to
>America?s gross domestic product and
>supported nearly 450,000 jobs.1
>Over 68 percent of the
>contribution to the economy was
>associated with direct use of
>National Forest System lands and
>
>resources, including land use fees from
>privately provided recreation services ?
>ski areas, outfitting and guiding,
>campground concessions; expenditures related to
>skiing, hiking, hunting, fishing, and
>other forms of outdoor recreation;
>the generation of energy, minerals,
>and traditional forest products; and
>livestock grazing.
>
>
>Nemont

You don't say how much revenue is generated by all these activities and resource utilization activities. Do they combine to generate more than the cost of these government agencies? Were they prior to shutting down the timber industry?
 
>I am all for cutting spending
>on all government programs.
>The problem is that the
>rugged individuals who claim they
>are the only thing that
>stands between our government and
>total anarchy would cry oppression
>if they give up their
>government cheese as well.
>
>Why start with the $5 Billion
>line items? We can
>save all of the FS
>and the BLM's budget just
>by cutting 2% of the
>Pentagon budget. That would
>set Ted Cruz's hair of
>fire if we did that.
>
>

I'd say going from 14 carrier groups to 9 should have been more than a 2% budget cut. If not where has the money gone for the operating costs of those 5 carrier groups?


>Trim 2% from Medicare and social
>security and we could fully
>fund all the backlogged maintenance
>in Yellowstone, Glacier, Yosemite, fund
>the FS, the BLM and
>the Bureau of Rec. and
>not need an increased gas/oil
>tax to fund the infrastructure
>bank.
>

Why can't our parks self support? Why can't we utilize the renewable resources of our parks? A few years ago they paid sharpshooter to shoot 200 elk in Rocky Mountain National Park. Some in areas out of sight and difficult to retrieve, they just left em lay. I bet they could have got several hundred thousand dollars apiece for 5 or 6 bull tags at auction. I don't claim to know all the intricacies of our national parks but that's just 1 small example from someone on the outside. How bout a little timber harvest?

>Why not start where the money
>really is instead of domestic
>discretionary? Because the
>goal of the Ted Cruz
>wing isn't to be efficient
>it is to get rid
>of the land and return
>it to the states which
>will mean it will not
>be open to the public
>for very long.
>
>Nemont


Pull up the Cruz plan that says he plans to give all federal lands back to the states. C'mon piper, yer better than that!
 
Why do we need to do any ox goring? Eliminate the waste fraud and abuse and utilize the renewable resources of our federal lands.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-16 AT 04:50PM (MST)[p]>Down the rabbit hole we go.
>Hunters and fisherman self support
>game and fish dept's who
>are the stewards of the
>resource they utilize in their
>activity.

Are hunter and fisherman paying their way on Federal lands, No they are paying for the State Departments of F&G. They don't pay for the management of federal lands with their license fees.



>Fish and game dept's.

Do a quick check on whether any F&G dept any where in the west is fully staffed and having enough.

>
>>We have cut back both the
>>FS budget and the BLM
>>budget and the Parks Budget
>>and then demand they do
>>more. Then guys
>>like you claim the problem
>>is that they spend too
>>much. Be specific, what
>>are they spending too much
>>on.
>>
>
>Not sure I've ever seen a
>10yr old fs, blm, or
>parks vehicle. Let's start there.

Really, you think vehicles are the biggest expense. Why should they drive old depreciating vehicles? There isn't fleet manager in the world who is a responsible adult who let their fleet depreciate to the point of being worthless. That right there shows you are simply not serious about the issue.


>
>>The FS budget is $4.9 Billion
>>which is $130 million less
>>then the year prior.
>>The estimated economic activity from
>>FS Activity is $36 Billion
>>per year.
>>
>>The various activities on the NFS
>>contributed over $36 billion to
>>America?s gross domestic product and
>>supported nearly 450,000 jobs.1
>>Over 68 percent of the
>>contribution to the economy was
>>associated with direct use of
>>National Forest System lands and
>>
>>resources, including land use fees from
>>privately provided recreation services ?
>>ski areas, outfitting and guiding,
>>campground concessions; expenditures related to
>>skiing, hiking, hunting, fishing, and
>>other forms of outdoor recreation;
>>the generation of energy, minerals,
>>and traditional forest products; and
>>livestock grazing.
>>
>>
>>Nemont
>
>You don't say how much revenue
>is generated by all these
>activities and resource utilization activities.
>Do they combine to generate
>more than the cost of
>these government agencies? Were they
>prior to shutting down the
>timber industry?

Go look for yourself what is generated on public lands. Don't take my word for it. 80% of there budget now goes to fighting fires. How do the states propose to fund that little chore? Landowners and cabin owners will be highly unsatisfied with when the States let it burn.

Nemont
 
Anyone with over a 2nd grade education who supports Ted Cruz and his public land give back isn't much of hunter or fisherman and isn't serious about passing on our hunting heritage.

There isn't a business in this country that starts stripping itself of assets to be given away to another entity that is taken seriously. Neither should taxpayers.

Nemont
 
>Anyone with over a 2nd grade
>education who supports Ted Cruz
>and his public land give
>back isn't much of hunter
>or fisherman and isn't serious
>about passing on our hunting
>heritage.
>
>There isn't a business in this
>country that starts stripping itself
>of assets to be given
>away to another entity that
>is taken seriously. Neither
>should taxpayers.
>
>Nemont


So you couldn't find the cruz plan that says he wants to give all the federal lands back to the states?
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-16
>AT 04:50?PM (MST)
>
>>Down the rabbit hole we go.
>>Hunters and fisherman self support
>>game and fish dept's who
>>are the stewards of the
>>resource they utilize in their
>>activity.
>
>Are hunter and fisherman paying their
>way on Federal lands, No
>they are paying for the
>State Departments of F&G.
>They don't pay for the
>management of federal lands with
>their license fees.
>
>

Hunters and fishermen don't harvest the trees or the minerals or the water. They fund the government agency who are the stewards of the resources they utilize.


>
>>Fish and game dept's.
>
>Do a quick check on whether
>any F&G dept any where
>in the west is fully
>staffed and having enough.
>
>>

It'll never be enough, it never is.



>>>We have cut back both the
>>>FS budget and the BLM
>>>budget and the Parks Budget
>>>and then demand they do
>>>more. Then guys
>>>like you claim the problem
>>>is that they spend too
>>>much. Be specific, what
>>>are they spending too much
>>>on.
>>>
>>
>>Not sure I've ever seen a
>>10yr old fs, blm, or
>>parks vehicle. Let's start there.
>
>Really, you think vehicles are the
>biggest expense. Why should
>they drive old depreciating vehicles?
> There isn't fleet manager
>in the world who is
>a responsible adult who let
>their fleet depreciate to the
>point of being worthless.
>That right there shows you
>are simply not serious about
>the issue.
>
>

I said it's a starting point. I didn't say it was the cure all.



>>
>>>The FS budget is $4.9 Billion
>>>which is $130 million less
>>>then the year prior.
>>>The estimated economic activity from
>>>FS Activity is $36 Billion
>>>per year.
>>>
>>>The various activities on the NFS
>>>contributed over $36 billion to
>>>America?s gross domestic product and
>>>supported nearly 450,000 jobs.1
>>>Over 68 percent of the
>>>contribution to the economy was
>>>associated with direct use of
>>>National Forest System lands and
>>>
>>>resources, including land use fees from
>>>privately provided recreation services ?
>>>ski areas, outfitting and guiding,
>>>campground concessions; expenditures related to
>>>skiing, hiking, hunting, fishing, and
>>>other forms of outdoor recreation;
>>>the generation of energy, minerals,
>>>and traditional forest products; and
>>>livestock grazing.
>>>
>>>
>>>Nemont
>>
>>You don't say how much revenue
>>is generated by all these
>>activities and resource utilization activities.
>>Do they combine to generate
>>more than the cost of
>>these government agencies? Were they
>>prior to shutting down the
>>timber industry?
>
>Go look for yourself what is
>generated on public lands.
> Don't take my word
>for it. 80%
>of there budget now goes
>to fighting fires. How
>do the states propose to
>fund that little chore?
> Landowners and cabin owners
>will be highly unsatisfied with
>when the States let it
>burn.
>
>Nemont
>

If we harvested timber and created separation the firefighting budget wouldn't need to be so big plus we would be generating revenue from the harvesting of a renewable resource. That's what's called a win-win.
 
elkassassin asked:

Question for NeMont?

I Know a few places Here Locally where the Sage Grouse Are down in Numbers!(Surely Not Endangered Nor Extinct!)

None of the Governments/TreeHuggers main Excuses/Reasons are effecting these Local Birds!

So What you say NeMont?
-------------------------------------------

First off, why would you ask an insurance salesman?

I haven't paid much attention to the grouse issue but I don't need to. I figured it out a long time ago. It goes like this:

The problem is we need to run evil big oil and ranchers off of public land and get people to believe in man made global warming. (the conclusion). The next step is to send brain washed millennials out in the field to gather evidence that supports our conclusion. Normal science works just the opposite. It's the same peer reviewed scientific studies that Hitler did back in the 30's to prove the Aryan race was superior.

So, elkassassin, the reason your grouse numbers are going down is either ranchers, fossil fuel workers, or global warming. I'm sure your flocks fall under one or more of these reasons.

Who ever came up with the sage grouse crisis was an eco freak genius. It's the mother lode. They can shut down the entire west with one species. No real need to file a thousand lawsuits over a thousand different species.
 
Where do you get that harvesting Timber ever made the forest service money. Do a quick check of below cost Timber sales. They use the same argument that ranchers make

The timber companies got huge subsidies from the taxpayers to cut that timber in almost every sale
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-16 AT 06:24PM (MST)[p]Says the guy who doesn't know bull$hit from low grade peanut butter


DW
Here is the Cruz promise on public lands.



Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-16 AT 09:55PM (MST)[p]some of these quote's were taken in the 60's but as you can see they are very much alive in the minds of the liberals and new world order people today and their plan is working...

--------------------

We must make this an insecure and inhospitable place for capitalists and their projects . . . We must reclaim the roads and plowed land, halt dam construction, tear down existing dams, free shackled rivers and return to wilderness millions of tens of millions of acres of presently settled land." David Foreman, Earth First! This is currently in motion here in Oregon disassembling of dams have begun?Hmmmmm?..

The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." Norman Thomas, former U.S. Socialist Presidential Candidate.

========================================================
"How I Learned to Love the New World Order" Article by Sen. Joseph R. Biden, Jr. in The Wall Street Journal (April 1992)
=========================================================
"What is the Establishment's viewpoint? Through the Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower and Kennedy administrations its ideology is constant: That the best way to fight Communism is by a one world socialist state governed by experts like themselves. The result has been policies which favor the growth of the super-state, gradual surrender of United States sovereignty to the United Nations and a steady retreat in the face of Communist aggression."

Edith Kermit Roosevelt, Granddaughter of President Theodore Roosevelt, article "Elite Clique Holds Power in U.S." in the Indianapolis News (1961)
=========================================================

" progressive reduction of the war-making capability of the nations and the simultaneous strengthening of international institutions to settle disputes and maintain the peace... elimination of all armed forces and armaments except those needed to maintain internal order within states and to furnish the United Nations with peace forces... by the time it would be so strong no nation could challenge it."

The US State Department has been, since the times of the traitorous Roosevelt administration in the 1930s, an active agent of world transformation, of helping to create the Socialist One World Government. Consequently, its CFR inspired strategies have inexorably undermined American sovereignty and compromised the integrity of the USA as a sovereign nation state. An example of this hidden agenda is State Department document #7277, called Freedom From War: The United States' Program for General and Complete Disarmament in a Peaceful World that revealed plans to give the UN control of the US Armed Forces and its nuclear weapons, which on September 1, 1961 was sent by courier to the UN Secretary General.

The document proposed a three-step program:
"The first stage would significantly reduce the capabilities of nations to wage war by reducing the armed forced of the nations ... nuclear capabilities would be reduced by treaties ... and UN peace-keeping powers would be strengthened ... The second stage would provide further substantial reductions in the armed forces and the establishment of a permanent international peace force within the United Nations... The third stage would have the nations retaining only those forces required for maintaining internal order, but the United States would provide manpower for the United Nations Peace Force

State Department document #7277; Freedom From War: The United States' Program for General and Complete Disarmament in a Peaceful World (1961)

=========================================================

The United Nations, he told an audience at Harvard University, 'has not been able --nor can it be able- to shape a new world order which events so compellingly demand.' ... The new world order that will answer economic, military, and political problems, he said, 'urgently requires, I believe, that the United States take the leadership among all free peoples to make the underlying concepts and aspirations of national sovereignty truly meaningful through the federal approach.'"

Gov. Nelson Rockefeller of New York, article entitled "Rockefeller Bids Free Lands Unite: Calls at Harvard for Drive to Build New World Order," New York Times (1962)

=========================================================
We are not going to achieve a new world order without paying for it in blood as well as in words and money." Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., in Foreign Affairs (July/August 1995)

=========================================================
"No one will enter the New World Order unless he or she will make a pledge to worship Lucifer. No one will enter the New Age unless he will take a Luciferian Initiation." David Spangler, Director of Planetary Initiative, United Nations
=========================================================
If I were reincarnated, I would wish to be returned to Earth as a killer virus to lower human population levels." Prince Phillip, World Wildlife Fund.
=========================================================
David Rockefeller, American Businessman

?This present window of opportunity, during which a truly peaceful and interdependent world order might be built, will not be open for too long ? We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order.?

?We are grateful to the Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries.

?Everything is in place ? after 500 years ? to build a true ?new world? in the Western Hemisphere? And what happens if we don't pass NAFTA?

I truly don't think that ?criminal? would be too strong a word for rejecting NAFTA.

=========================================================
Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order . Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond , whether real or *promulgated* , that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this *scenario*, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World Government.?

?My country?s history, Mr. President, tells us that it is possible to fashion unity while cherishing diversity, that common action is possible despite the variety of races, interests, and beliefs we see here in this chamber. Progress and peace and justice are attainable. So we say to all peoples and governments: Let us fashion together a new world order.?

?The New World Order cannot happen without U.S. participation, as we are the most significant single component. Yes, there will be a New World Order, and it will force the United States to change it's perceptions.?

?Our nation is uniquely endowed to play a creative and decisive role in the new order which is taking form around us.?

?The United States ? a country which really doesn't understand foreign policy very well in terms of its public, because its public is not all that engaged in the world, nevertheless the United States is in a key position to shape this so that the problem of a Bush presidency will be the emergence of a New International Order??

?The alternative to a new international order is chaos.?

?The extraordinary impact of the President-elect on the imagination of humanity is an important element in shaping a new world order.?

?The role of China in a new world order is crucial.? Henry Kissinger, German born American Political Scientist & Diplomat.
=========================================================
http://www.debtfreeadventure.com/one-world-currency-new-world-order/

"The high office of the president has been used to foment a plot to destroy America's freedom and before I leave this office, I must inform the citizens of their plight."

Twenty years ago, when the architects of these institutions met to design an international banking structure, the economic life of the world was polarized in overwhelming, and even alarming measure, on the United States. So were the world's monetary reserves ... Sixty percent of the gold reserves of the world were here in the United States ... There was a need for redistribution of the financial resources of the world ... All this has come about. It did not come about by chance but by conscious and deliberate and responsible planning ... We are now entering upon a new era of economic and financial interdependence ... Our gold reserves are (now) forty percent of the world's holdings."
President John F. Kennedy, CFR member in an address to the International Monetary Fund on the deliberate pauperization of the American people (1963)

is that what got him killed??????

"Fundamental Bible-believing people do not have the right to indoctrinate their children in their religious beliefs because we, the state, are preparing them for the year 2000, when America will be part of a one-world global society and their children will not fit in." Peter Hoagland Nebraska State Senator. Speaking on radio in 1983
=====================================
David Rockefeller
For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as "internationalists" and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."

We are grateful to the Washington Post, the New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years.

It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries."
Mikhail Gorbachev : The threat of environmental crisis will be the 'international disaster key' that will unlock the New World Order

=========================================================
Yes, there have been differences between America and Europe. No doubt, there will be differences in the future. But the burdens of global citizenship continue to bind us together. A change of leadership in Washington will not lift this burden. In this new century, Americans and Europeans alike will be required to do more ? not less. Partnership and cooperation among nations is not a choice; it is the one way, the only way, to protect our common security and advance our common humanity.?
Barack H Obama, Current US President.
 
>....if there is sagebrush and no
>grouse....it is the insurance industry's
>fault...


Homer,

That makes sense, right?

That kind of reasoning is why fake conservatives will remain losers in the sage brush wars.

Nemont
 

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