How to get more big bucks in Utah

RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

SS Chad-

"As for the 3 point or better statements. I hunted several of those units prior to the blood bath that took place when they lifted the restriction. To say 3 point or better did not work, is simply not true in my oppinionated little world. It was routine and a daily occurance to hunt herds of bucks of all age classes during the bowhunt. On the Fish lake we would see groups of 10-15 bucks every time out. A lot of 2 points, 3 points and 4 points. Some real dandy's. Our camp killed 6-7 mature bucks each year out. The very next season after the carnage, that area was void of any age class of bucks and has NEVER been the same. The talk of it not working is absurd and you will never convince me other wise. There were plenty of mature bucks to breed the does. Heck, back then, the muzzy hunt was DURING the rut and they still got the does bred."

+1!!!!!!
I have stated this before and stand by it too the bitter end!


And.....If it didn't work and the rifle guys slammed all the older "breeder bucks" out, why the hell was the november muzzle loader season such a sucess for big bucks, weren't they all dead already??











Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

Slam, tards DONT LOOK before they shoot. Too many two pts or left to rot. Sad but true, I like the pt restriction. Russ
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

deerlove-

I can definately see that as a fact and actually saw a buck or two left too rot like you said, but look how many die now!
Coyote's ate the poached one's (if you will) and that saved them from taking a live one....IMHO.

Thanks for the vote though, unfortunately i'm afraid we'll never see it go into place ever again for whatever reason.









48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

Slam a point restriction wont work because to many weekend warriors with a thumb where the sun dont shine want a roadside motl buck that they can blown in half with a rifle out the window. to make them hunt for a specific type of animal would be ludacris?! they might loose some weight get healthier from actually having to hunt! that would just be horrible then they couldnt claim disability for being so obese! then ya throw in the loss of money that would occur from the weekend warriors refusing to buy a tag that doesnt guarantee a kill on a trophy two point. True after a couple of few years they would be killing mature or at least decent animals but who could wait that long?! after all these guys are true sportsman who hunt because its the manly thing to do so they should be allowed an animal every year ;-) kind of like these elk hunters who want a chance at a mature bull every year even though it will kill the whole herd to do so! thats my opinion on the whole bit haha hopefully this doesnt turn to ugly
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

I did...


i will expect it posted on this thread or your apology posted on this thread.
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

Slam,

I am with ya! I guess those big bucks were our imagination huh? Pretty sad thing that year they all died! Too bad we can't go back to a point restriction in a few areas. Yes, a few deer got shot as 2 points. That is poaching, turn them in. Why kill a proven option for management rather than enforcing and education the public. It seems to me we had a huge problem with people shooting branched bulls in spike only units too. Stiff penalties and hard enforcement minimized that into a successful program. All it would take is effort.

Pro,

What are your honest thought on 3 point or better? I have seen them work in Utah. Why are you guy's against them now?
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

>Nochawk,
>
>Give me a week and you
>have a deal!!!
>
>Smelly

Smelly, with all due respect, there aint a legislator in Utah that knows their A$$ from a hole in the ground. Don't believe everything you hear.

Man alive, a few of you most be older than I thought - and few certainly act younger than I thought.

FACT IS - ATV's aint going nowhere. In fact, they are getting more and more prevalent each year. FACT IS - there will never be any road closures during the rifle hunt, or any other hunt, FACT IS - there is a ##### load of non-hunters out in the hills all the time these days. FACT IS - there is always going to be a ##### load of road hunters. Any of you that say you wouldn't stop the old FORD for the right buck are up in the night - I guess its just a matter of what is the "right buck."

SAD FACT IS - every damn person on this website ought to be after the same thing, and that is to keep hunting a privilege we can enjoy. Archers bashing rifle hunters, and vice versa, while a fun read, is really a sad act.

I give many kudos to those who actually THINK through a plan and try to make it work of the better of the sport. There isn't much opportunity in Utah any more absent the general hunt, so if you get to taking that away, it won't be long before there just ain't any opportunity, and then there ain't gonna be any hunters and all you whiners will wonder why each hunt costs $4500.00.
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

As long as we can "throw" ideas in the pot, what about buying point specific tags? You have to choose either a two point or less, three point, or four point or better tag? Make people choose what they want to shoot? Mandantory harvest reporting would be a must. Maybe there would be to much poaching or shooting of the wrong sized deer with this idea? Or do I have too much faith in the decency of humans? I for one belive every hunter carrying a weapon should know EXACTLY what he/she is shooting at.
Habitat is numero uno! Is it possible to get all hunters involved? Could an insentive be given to all those who help with "projects"? I'm all for give and take. I believe there are too many takers, and not enough givers. How do you balance it and still keep high levels of interest?
There are way to many roads in Utah. Access is to great. There should be road closures to hunters using ATVs. As well there should be areas that hunters could still use them.
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

blazingsaddle-

I am ALL for that idea, even as complex as it may sound at first!
I mentioned this same thing in a post about a year ago and it got shot down.
I'd GLADLY purchase a "mature buck only" tag (whatever they'd decide that would be) and my sone, well he could get his "yearling buck" tag or "any buck", whatever....

But there would probably be too many "holes" in the idea....but it IS an idea!!










48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

Yea every tard with his $20 tascos knows what he's shooting at a 500 yards. I like pt restriction if theres a limited amount of hunters.
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

deerlove ya cant slam the optics like that tascos are high quality amazing glass ;-) haha at least until you breathe on them and they start seein double. i agree with ya if there are point restrictions then there must be penalties for violating that because to many "four points" would magically become two points at five hundred yards
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

LAST EDITED ON May-12-08 AT 03:39PM (MST)[p]Buck,

I agree with you on the closure of main trail systems, but over the last few years the forest service has actually closed a lot of minor trails. Unfortunately hunters (and Non hunters) keep knocking over the signs and driving the trails. These are the trails I believe we can make a differnce on. These can be enforced but only if hunters take an active role in taking photo's and following up with the forest service.

As for Bowhunters attacking rifle hunters, you are absolutley right. We should not be attacking each other, but if anyone comes on here lobbing outrageous statistics with either weapon type, they are going to get corrected.

***Edit*** One last thing. I think we need to instill mandatory reporting for all weapon types and all big game species. It is already set up for LE and is on line. I think actual harvest statistics etc. would be a big plus on the side of herd management.

I like the ideas, keep them coming. As long as we are talking mule deer something good is bound to come from it.
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

The only way I can see to increase or stay the same # of tags would be with Primitive weapons. maybe make primitive weapons tags statewide for youth and regional for adults...maybe cap them at??? 30,000 each...
with the units getting smaller next year maybe for rifle have 37,000 tags and the DWR can close areas that need to be closed for a few years.

Make season length 4 weeks for archery, 3 weeks for Muzzleloader, and 2 weeks for rifle, I think people would be happy with that..they could keep the 5 day season in southern UT if they wanted i guess... maybe reverse it and have a 5 day season in the Northern region????lol

This way the DWR would still have there 97,000 deer hunters money.
Maybe expand the DH program so the real hardcore hunters that want to hunt all 3 season could join and with more DH doing hours of work on winter ranges would be helpful cutting down PJ and planting sage brush...ask for donations on a regional basis to buy fencing for highways and make a few underpasses or overpasses for migration corridors...

We need to do something about the domestic sheep/goats intermingling with the wild sheep..

Predator control during the spring calf/fawn times ( maybe have a tournament in the spring for coyote's? $20 entrance fee winner takes 50%???)

This is a pretty complex problem we have in Utah, I dont think there are any simple solutions..my hope is that the Mule deer group that was set up can come up with some workable ideas...

finger's crossed and hoping for the best...
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

+1 for mandatory reporting (how about an extra LE bonus point for returned unfilled GEN tags - coupled with prosecute the he!! out of anyone that cheats the reporting system).

+1 for smaller more manageable GENERAL units.
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

All great ideas! I like the added bonus points for unused tags, but maybe we could make it Prefernce points? Either way I really like the idea of somehow rewarding those who choose to hunt but not harvest an animal.
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

Do you guys think tards will tag their deer if they can be rewarded for unused ones? NOPE neither do I.
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

HEY Pro!!!

YOU HEAR WHAT SMELLBUCK SAID???

75 FRICKEN % WOUND & ROT AVERAGE FOR STICK FLIPPERS!!!

HE GOT HIS INFO THE SAME PLACE YOU GET YOURS!!!

SOMEBODY SAID IT SO IT MUST BE TRUE!!!

I SAY CUT THAT FEATHER FLIPPIN (AKA WOUND & NEVER RECOVER!!!) DEER HUNT TO A 5 DAY HUNT!!!

THAT'LL SAVE SOME DEER!!!

WE SHOULD SEE A NOTICABLE DIFFERENCE WITHIN TWO YEARS!!!

GOOD GAWD Pro!!!

WHY DON'T YOU FIX ALL THE WORLD PROBLEMS ALL AT ONCE???



THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

Deerlove,

You are right, some people would tag their deer with their kids tag etc etc. Do we do nothing and shut down every good idea because someone might abuse the system? Every idea has some down side to it. If it helps the herds is that not a good thing?

Bobcat, your are a funny man!
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

My Solution:

1) Keep permits the same (holy cow I must be nuts!). I do recognize some areas need relief from the orange army and I do support the creation of the 25-30 units, but I strongly believe we can maintain 80-100k deer permit numbers in this state.

2) Reduce motor vehicle access significantly. Remove all illegal and "legal" user created ATV trails that have been made in the last 20 years. By removing them i mean spend some effort to block and destroy the origin of the trail, and nail violators (confiscation of the offending vehicle and many thousands of dollars in additional fines at a minimum). I have posted numerous posts about this, but reducing ATV access significantly (and reducing 4x4 truck access somewhat) is the easiest way to maintain or even increase opportunity and improve quality.

It is too simple, that is why this probably won't happen however. Instead we will cut permits by half or more and maintain the ridiculous motor vehicle access that has been created in the last 20-30 years and we will all get to go hunting every 3rd or 4th year but be able to shoot a 24 inch buck within a half mile of an ATV trail. Not my idea of a solution.

This article is a decent piece on this matter from the Idaho G/F department: http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/hunt/MDI/newsletter_feb07.pdf

This report equally applies to Utah if not more. The best quote in there is "Deer hunter numbers in Idaho haven't changed much in the past 20 years (In Utah they have been cut in half!). What has changed is access. The use of 4x4's, ATV's and motorbikes has allowed us to push into areas that were once remote, secure and hard to get to. THE RESULT HAS OFTEN BEEN FEWER MATURE DEER..."

I am not just relying on articles like this to come to my opinion, I have witnessed the devastating effect of a user created ATV trail numerous times including in the Grey's River of WY (why it is legal to drive an ATV up Corral Creek and down Cottonwood Creek is beyond me) to Monroe Mtn Utah (pretty much the entire unit).

If I was given the task of solving the lack of mature deer numbers in Utah problem without significantly reducing opportunity, and given all of the power I needed to accomplish this, I would immediately prohibit ATV's from all public lands, year round. I do however realize this cannot happen, so as a compromise we need to end the creation of new user created trails and remove all the one's already here through massive fines to violators.

-RPinenut
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

SS!!!

NO!!!

I'M NOT VERY FUNNY!!!

IT'S TIME FOR CHANGE BOYS!!!

LETS GIT-R-DONE!!!

I'M JUST HOPING Pro HASN'T BIT OFF MORE THAN HE CAN CHEW???

HE'S FIXING BOTH THE ELK AND DEER HERDS ALL IN ONE YEAR!!!

THATS ONE HELL OF A CHALLENGE,I GUARANTEE IT!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

LAST EDITED ON May-12-08 AT 07:49PM (MST)[p]this is getting out of control.some really good ideas have come out in this post.what needs to happen now is some coordination to put them to work. 1-break the state into smaller more managable units. we all know there are some areas that could use some relief.this cannot be done with the size of units we have now. 20,000 northern tags with 7,000 of them in park valley area no wonder the bucks dont get big. 2-take some of these size restriction ideas and try them in a few of the units(if it works great then we can move the idea into other units,if not than at least we didnt try it on an entire so. region). 3-we have to keep opporutinity for the youth and seniors. 4-mandatory reporting.this shouldnt take that much of the dwr's time and money everyone could do this online.no report no tag next year. 5-although i am not anti-archery i feel utah does more than enough for the archers already; statewide hunts that last 3x the other seasons,areas that are open for months on end.first it was the WF then the Uinta basin and now the elk hunt in san pete.i feel like thats enough.give them a couple years to get the job done and if they cant open it up to the rest and give them some opporutinity. i feel this is the best time for the state to try something new because of all the extra revenue that is being created this year they shouldnt have to worry about a loss.if the herds go to crap the hunting in this state wont be creating any revenue.keep in mind that tag prices were dropped after the mandatory sm. game license,this must mean they do care a little bit.i think the money they are after is the federal money they get for overall tag sales (pitman/robertson act)somebody made the comment that if an area is below objective than cut tags if above obj. than the dwr could raise them i also feel this could be an incentive for them to create more revenue. WTH happened to PRO i thought he was gonna coordinate this.at least that how he always comes acrossed to me. :D maybe if we stop fighting he'll come back somebody must have punctured his kevlar :D
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

LAST EDITED ON May-12-08 AT 09:01PM (MST)[p]We need to take these ideas to our favorite conservation groups. They will be meeting on the committee in June (I think). That is where this will get put to paper. Let them know how you feel. Hopefully some of them will read this thread and some of the others. As Bobcat said it is "time for a change". What that change is, I do not know, but I know we need to try something!

Bessy,

Where did your other thread go? Did the Mods shut ya down? Man, I leave for a few hours and miss out on the fun?
 
Humble Pie Update

Nochawk & fellow MM members,

I might have to eat some crow sooner than later. I e-mailed the DWR today for information. They said they don't track wound rates. I know that is b.s. as I've been asked in their surveys if I lost any game.

I then spoke with the legislator who gave me the 75% figure, he said he couldn't remember exactly who gave him that number but seemed to think he could find out. (Some of you guys saw this number coming. I can only hope he delivers.)

I'm now more interested in finding out what the wound rates are regardless of how correct I am. Does anybody have an idea where this information can be found. Everyone seems certain I am wrong but nobody has a number.

Smelly
 
RE: Humble Pie Update

The only rates I know they track are through the LE harvest survey. I am certain they have that info somwhere. I would think the deer Biologist would be able to pull that up some how. I know there is no doubt a wound rate for all weapon types. To state 75% of any weapon type is absurd. No apology necessary man, I am sure you were told that by somebody and Even if a survey showing that surfaced, I would be very surprised how truly accurate it is. Anyways, have a great night.

Chad
 
RE: Humble Pie Update

The last data I saw or read was 4 years ago on a study done onarchery hunts conducted on military bases,wildlife managment areas (where there was a control enviroment) writen in Bowhunter Magazine where they did surveys of hunters and the animals ( checked for old healed wounds) and walked the areas to count any unrecovered animals. putting the wounded/unrecovered count at 2% or in other words 2 animals out of every 100 arrowed.

BUT..

There was no way to clarify if these deer were never recovered due to tracking difficulty or just what

AND

There were like 6 animals that had healed wounds from broadhead hits and were healthy and fully recovered. (all harvested animals had to be donated to feeding the hunger program so processing was done in a controled enviroment also)

now bullet hits cause more damage and the wounds usualy prove fatal to to tissue damage.

My best guess would put it at 10 - 15%

SMELLYBUCK
lets just forget the whole thing and get on with life..
 
RE: Humble Pie Update

YUP!!!

75%!!!

THERE ARE PEOPLE/SO-CALLED HUNTERS RUNNING A 75% WOUND & LET ROT RATE WITH ARCHERY EQUIPMENT!!!

YA EVER NOTICE IT'S THE SAME DAMN PEOPLE YEAR AFTER FRICKEN YEAR???

WHAT REALLY PISSES ME OFF IS HOW THEY BRAGG ABOUT IT!!!

BUNCH OF JUNK EQUIPMENT & NEVER USING THAT ROUND THANG ATOP THEIR SHOULDERS!!!

THE TRUE ARCHERY HUNTERS DO NOT LOSE MANY ANIMALS!!!

NO DIFFERENT THAN SOME OF THESE JACK-ASSES SHOOTING AT TURKEYS AT 45+ YARDS WITH THEIR SCATTER GUNS!!!

WAFJ!!!

ANYBODY CAN LOSE AN ANIMAL BUT WITH THESE PISS POOR ETHICS THEY DON'T EVEN TO DESERVE TO BE IN THE FIELD!!!

I THINK THIS 75% STUFF HAS SHAKEN Pro A BIT???

SMELLYBUCK,I THINK THAT OLE BOY THAT MENTIONED THE 75% TO YOU IS RIGHT ON CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS,BUT HE'S FOS AND I DON'T CARE IF HE'S A LEGISLATOR OR NOT!!!





THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: Humble Pie Update

"NO DIFFERENT THAN SOME OF THESE JACK-ASSES SHOOTING AT TURKEYS AT 45+ YARDS WITH THEIR SCATTER GUNS!!!

WAFJ!!!"

You come up with some sayings that make me burst out laughing.
I couldn't agree with you more!!!!
 
RE: Humble Pie Update

prooutdoors, you said: "We can either kill fewer bucks, or grow MORE bucks. I'll take the latter."

That statement is an oxymoron. We grow more bucks because we kill fewer bucks. I know SFW, to some degree, has the same mentality. Improve habitat & control predators and we will grow more bucks. Sounds resonable, but is it really working. I sure don't see it.I'm not so concerned about raising a good crop of two points. Utah has proven they can do that. I would like to see sound management practices that allows more of those two points to make it past the 1st two seasons and beyond.

Mike
 
RE: Humble Pie Update

As far as the predator issue, lions in particular-
I have a freind that has been running lion dogs in Utah for several years and he's not tree'd one mature lion in two years, everything they tree up is young.

So....maybe that means we are taking a toll on the older cats finally???

Must be a few breeders kickin around obviously, but all in all he said the numbers are WAY down on big cats.

It seems coyote hunting is gaining popularity again too.













48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
RE: Humble Pie Update

>prooutdoors, you said: "We can either
>kill fewer bucks, or grow
>MORE bucks. I'll take the
>latter."
>
>That statement is an oxymoron. We
>grow more bucks because we
>kill fewer bucks. I know
>SFW, to some degree, has
>the same mentality. Improve habitat
>& control predators and we
>will grow more bucks. Sounds
>resonable, but is it really
>working. I sure don't see
>it.

It is NOT an oxymoron, it is FACT! Killing fewer bucks does NOT "grow more bucks", it just would make the buck:doe ratio higher, while also LIMITING the overall herd numbers since bucks do NOT give birth to fawns. Think about it for a minute or two, it will catch on once you allow the thinking part of your noggin to kick into action. ;-)

You only need a ratio of 7:100 to breed all the does, anything over that is for hunters, not for biology. If you carry 'excess' bucks to have 'more' older bucks in the herd, you are LIMITING the number of does that can be in the herd, which in turn means FEWER fawns born each year, which DECREASES the number of bucks recruited into the herd each year.

Habitat projects ARE indeed working, and the deer herd is rebounding, both in quantity AND quality. Simple math says if you double the number of deer on a given unit while maintaining the same buck:doe ratios and same number of tags issued, the number of overall bucks will INCREASE and so will the quality. This is NOT rocket science, thankfully or I would be SOL, it is all about numbers. If you reduce tags, therefore reducing bucks killed, you have NOT solved the root cause of the 'problem', you have merely COMPOUNDED it. Now herd numbers will suffer MORE because the 'excess' bucks are eating feed that does/fawns could/should be eating thus LIMITING the number of deer on the unit(s), while also DECREASING opportunity. Thus, you would be making poor hunting conditions WORSE, not better.

If you increased a herd from 1000 to 1500 deer while keeping the SAME buck:doe ratio of 17:100 with a fawn:doe ratio of 40:100 you would INCREASE the number of bucks from 109 to 164 bucks in the same area, meaning there would be 55 MORE bucks to see/hunt in the unit. You would have to reduce 660 tags yearly from the general public to accomplish the same INCREASE in number of bucks. Which option is really the best one?

PRO


Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
RE: Humble Pie Update

pro,

You confuse the hell out of me. You say archers kill less and is a great management tool, then you say kill more bucks to recruit more fawns? Then you say the current plan is working, yet most people think it sucks?

Here is an idea and I am serious. You keep the 97k number and make 45k archery tags, 35k muzz tags, and 17k rifle tags. Make 25 units, adjust tags up or down yearly as needed and go for it? Deal? Those who want to flip sticks can. The rifle hunters can make the sacrifice for better quality since we kill them all anyway? I am not being a smart ass. I am serious. You got one vote already!
 
RE: Humble Pie Update

Pro,
doesn't your above thesis come with the assumption that the range is at carrying capacity?
Is it your opinion that Utah's habitat is at carrying capacity?
By saying carrying over excess bucks you are limiting the number of does, you are making that assumption, No?
 
RE: Humble Pie Update

NVdrhntr, no I am NOT assuming the range is at carrying capacity on all units, but more does means MORE fawns, more bucks does NOT mean more fawns.

ktc, I would like to see something like that, but I also am realistic enough to know it will NEVER get implemented, way to many anti-archery folks in Utah. Find a way to get people on board and I'll gladly help in any way I can.

On areas that are struggling, the BEST/QUICKEST way to increase deer numbers is through habitat recovery and MORE does to produce MORE fawns. Increasing the percentage of bucks in the herd from where they are now will NOT help overall deer numbers.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
RE: Humble Pie Update

"You confuse the hell out of me. You say archers kill less and is a great management tool, then you say kill more bucks to recruit more fawns? Then you say the current plan is working, yet most people think it sucks?"

Hell, I confuss myself daily. I am saying on units/regions that have seen severe winter kill, the best/quickest way to get the herd back is through fawn recruitment for 2-5 years, that means maximizing the number of does in the affected areas.

In areas that are at/near capacity where 'quality' is desired, arhcers can/are a great management tool, as a lot of tags can be issued with little impact to quality.

I think the current plan IS working as far as getting MORE deer while also keeping buck:doe ratios at/above objectives. That is why I deem the current system 'working'.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
RE: Humble Pie Update

I don't think the herds are at carrying capacity either.
So you can have more bucks AND more does until such capacity
is reached.
And I feel it's a long way from being there.
though I'm not a biologist, just an observer over the last 40 years, I don't see such a degradation in habitat from the late 60's till now (overall, I realize some areas have gone downhill)
to explain why deer numbers are half what they were then.
Utah has the habitat to support more deer.
I'm all for more habitat projects for sure, but theres more to lower deer numbers than just habitat don't you think?
 
RE: Humble Pie Update

Habitat HAS degraded significantly since the 60's. Loss of critical habitat has been HUGE, from expansion of homes/cities, to increased pinon juniper growth, old/dead sage brush, cheat grass, roads, atv trails through fawning grounds, to a few harsh winters and drought years.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
RE: Humble Pie Update

well, you probably know the state of Utah better than I do
So, I won't argue your point.
All I know is the hunting grounds where my family has been hunting since the 50's in Southern utah, and all surrounding it,
still looks just as great as it did back then.
But, the deer numbers aren't anywhere near the same.
 
RE: Humble Pie Update

Dont you think there's always been harsh winters?
Why to listen to my dad talk, growing up in Southern Utah in the 40's and 50's he walked to school in neck deep snow uphill both ways. haha
but there were sure alot of deer back then.
 
RE: Humble Pie Update

WELL!!!

BY THE FALL OF 2008 Pro SHOULD HAVE EVERYTHING FIXED & I DO EXPECT TO SEE SOME 30"+ BUCKS EVEN HERE IN THE COVETED REGION!!!

TELL YOU WHAT Pro!!!

AFTER I FINISH THE ANNUAL 2008 PISSCUTTER HUNT I'M GONNA TIP YOU ACCORDING TO HOW I FEEL YOU HAVE HELPED THE REGION!!!

I EXPECT BIG CHANGES BY FALL!!!

BIG CHANGES!!!

YOU'LL PROBABLY HAVE TO GET THE MAGIC LAMP OUT TO GET THINGS DONE AS FAST AS I EXPECT THEM!!!

I WANT BIG BUCKS & I WANT THEM QUICK!!!

AND I'M NOT TALKING THE SAME BIG BUCKS THE DWR THINKS OF!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: Humble Pie Update

HEY wiley???

WHAT???

"SCREW IT"???

MAY I ASK WHAT KIND OF A COMMENT THAT IS???

LET ME KNOW ww???

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: Humble Pie Update

BESSY..... Ya know how much I value your opinion.
Even though we are on different sides of the fence on the quality vs opportunity issue. I e mailed ya to get your take on this in private but never heard back, I guess the cans were piled up and needed to be "harvested" or something.

We as hunters are going to have to live with what comes out of these next few months for a long long time. Not just us but our kids as well. I would hope that FOR ONE FRICKEN TIME the horn porners, stick flippers, conservation tag interests, and those that like to hear things go bang, would get over themselves and do WHAT IS RIGHT FOR MULE DEER.

I will be part of this, I ain't in in for what is best for bowhunters, or what is best for the horn porners I am in it for what is best for mule deer and the future of mule deer. If the others that are part of this can't get with that then I ain't going to be a very popular dude.
 
RE: Humble Pie Update

Pro,

I am really slow and somewhat mentally challenged. If you don't believe me ask my wife.

Anyway, I am still a little confused on the Buck to Doe ratio.
Killing more bucks will allow more bucks to be born???? I think I understand this.

However, once there are more fawns being born, will these first year bucks be 4 points??? Please explain to this to me, the less gifted conservationist.
 
RE: Humble Pie Update

wiley!!!

I'M GONNA GO THROUGH MY E-MAILS HERE AS SOON AS I POST THIS!!!

MAYBE I MISSED IT???

MAYBE ITS ONE OF THESE E-MAILS THAT I DON'T GET TILL WEEKS AFTER THE SENDER SENDS THEM???

ANYTHING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION WILL BE FINE BY ME wiley!!!

DO YOU REALIZE HOW MANY YEARS I'VE BEEN HUNTING GENERAL UNITS FOR THAT ONE BUCK BIG ENOUGH TO PUT ON THE WALL???

AS YOU KNOW I ALWAYS ANSWER YOUR E-MAILS,MAYBE I MISSED IT,BEEN BUSY TURKEY HUNTING WITH MY BOY!!!

AND OUR INTERNET SERVICE ALSO HAS A QUARANTINE MESSAGE CENTER,I'LL CHECK THAT ALSO!!!!

YOU KNOW I DON'T IGNORE YOU wiley!!!

WHAT ELSE YOU BEEN UP TO???





THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: Humble Pie Update

I got to hand it to you Pro, you really have the lingo down. Hell I think you'd make a great politician, instead of arguing your ratio theory, which by the way sounds ludacrist, kill more bucks so more bucks can be born?????? I'm not even going to try to counter that. You see blue and I see green.

Here is what I propose.
1. Reduce overall tag numbers statewide.
2. Develop 12-15 new LE units for the trophy guys.
3. Divide the state into 20-25 general units. (micro-manage)
4. Create permanent winter feed stations.
5. Mandatory harvest report, no report no tag.
6. More Dedicated Hunters, we can kill only 2 bucks in 3 years, plus donate time for projects.
7. Develop the existing winter grounds to sustain critters during the harsh winters. Plant brush and plants they can get to.
8. Massive ATV road closures, statewide. Confiscation of ATV and severe fine for breaking the law. Rewards paid for turning people in as well.
9. Mandatory $5 fee for every tag issued dedicated to habitat improvement.
10. Hire more wardens. (I have never been checked in 30 years in Utah for any license)

What do you think? Any of these sound OK to you????
 
HEY ww!!!

CHECK YOUR E-MAIL wiley,I FOUND IT!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: Humble Pie Update

DIY
I aint PRO but here is my take

#1 Maybe
#2 Not in a million years
#3 OK
#4 As Needed
#5 ABSOLUTELY
#6 Probably not
#7 ABSOLUTELY
#8 In the works
#9 Only if 99% of the conservation tags are returned to the public
#10 100% agree
 
RE: Pro you are a joke!

1)No
2)I could go for 4-5 new LE units at the most.
3)I like.
4)Like ww said, only as/where needed.
5)I agree.
6)Hunter success for general season hunters is around 30%, which equates to ONE deer every three years, I thought you guys were for killing FEWER bucks, this idea would encouarge hunters to kill MORE bucks
7)Should be top proirity.
8)Sounds good, but is not likely to happen anytime soon, and be careful what you ask for without researching ALL the ramifications of closures across the state. There is a committee that is looking for ways to educate/enforce/deter ATV illegal activities, ww sits on that committee as do I.
9)Not as effective as the current conservation tag program.
10)I agree on hiring more waredens, but how do you suggest funding it?

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
RE: Pro you are a joke!

Another great discussion, for the most part.

Some points to ponder:

Pro is right that you only need 7-10 bucks per 100 does to impregnate virtually all of the does. Unfortunately, there is increasing data that shows that pregnancy rates don't equal higher doe/fawn ratios. On my favorite unit in Oregon, pregnancy rates are estimated to be 120/100 does. By December of their first year, ratios are below 50/100, meaning something happened to 60% of the fawns between conception and the start of the winter.

One of the most interesting things to come out of the elk breeding studies done in Oregon is that during the first estrus cycle, spikes and young bulls were trying to breed, but were rejected by the cows. This was observed time after time. I believe the same thing happens with mule deer. All of us have seen smaller bucks with their noses up some doe's rearend, and she wants nothing to do with him.

In my opinion, the way we evaluate the health of a big game herd, buck/doe ratios and fawn/doe ratios, has been a disaster for those populations. I recently attended one of the big game meetings in Oregon where the biologist was justifying the number of tags offerred because the buck/doe ratio was at management objective. A local rancher piped up that ODF&W would issue 900 tags for a deer herd that had a population of 100, as long as there were 15 bucks, which is the magament objective for most of Oregon. This is how we should be doing it, in my view. Develop a management population objective in real numbers, 3,000 does, 500 bucks, 1,500 fawns, for a total of 5,000.00. Based on those numbers, you issue 1,000 buck tags and 1,000 antlerless tags. Do your counts. Convert the counts into real numbers, let's say it comes out to 2,000 does, 400 bucks, and 1,000 fawns. Your buck ratio actually went up from your management objective of 17/100 to 20/100. This happens every year in Oregon and probably other states. Since ratios are up, tags stay the same or are increased, even though the actual number of bucks in the population decreased. The truth is we hunt animals, not ratios, and there needs to be sufficent numbers of animals in the population to sustain the harvest, regardless of what the ratios might be.


Scoutdog
 
RE: Pro you are a joke!

JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

HERE WE ARE BACK TO BUCK TO DOE RATIOS!!!

GOOD GAWD A MIGHTY!!!

WHAT I'D LIKE TO SEE IS A FEW MATURE BUCKS WITH GOOD GENETICS IN THAT COUNT!!!

IT AIN'T HAPPENING AS WE SPEAK HERE IN THE NE REGION FOR THE MOST PART!!!

MOTL BREEDING HIS MOM KINDA BULL$HIT DON'T CUT IT!!!

IN THEM BUCK TO DOE RATIO'S Pro???

HOW MANY OF THEM BUCKS WERE NOT JUNK BUCKS???

YOU DON'T SEE RANCHERS,ELK RANCHERS BUYING PISSCUTTERS TO DO THE BREEDING,DO YOU???


THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: Pro you are a joke!

LAST EDITED ON May-14-08 AT 08:24AM (MST)[p]Sure is alot of words typed on this thread when all you(UTAH) have to do is cut back tags and start killing fewer younger bucks. It would be nice to have a magic wand and have your cake and eat it too. Cant be done with the current population levels....OBVIOUSLY!

Delusion is a comprehensive ill.
 
RE: Pro you are a joke!

Just to stir the pot a little more.
Will lower tag numbers result in fewer young bucks being killed?
Or will the hunter success rate just go up.
Think about it, most 2 points are killed the first day or two of the hunt.
Could it be unsuccessful hunters, not counting trophy hunters, are not getting opportunity to shoot a young buck because if theydon'tshootone the first day there's not any left to see.
With fewer hunters fewer young bucks killed opening day but that doesn't mean they won't be killed later in the hunt.
Higher hunter success rate by percentage.
same amount of bucks being killed.
just a thought.
 
RE: Pro you are a joke!

I think you are on to something there NV, It is usually the same guy's who get their deer every year. I beleive that the harvest numbers would not vary much unless tags were cut substantially. That does not mean we should not cut numbers, I am just not sure it would help much. Cutting tags would mean the guy's who love to hunt would really try to get their tags, and those who "socially" hunt, would just drop away.
 
RE: Pro you are a joke!

"Cutting tags would mean the guy's who love to hunt would really try to get their tags, and those who "socially" hunt, would just drop away."

And that is EXACTLY why we should avoid cutting tags. We already have seen HUGE decline in hunter recruitment, now some of you are advocating adding to the problem by seeing hunter retention decline. That does NOT help the situation in the short term or the long term.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
RE: Pro you are a joke!

Pro:

Please explain the negatives up a massive "clean-up" of illegal and de facto legal ATV trails in this state (or any Western state). This would solve so many problems, explain how this could hurt the deer or deer hunting, I do not understand.

Without this any mule deer initiative in Utah will fail unless permits are reduced tremendously or most rifle tags are switched to archery. The only way to maintain similar opportunity and increase quality substantially is to significantly reduce motor vehicle access on public lands. I am concerned that you do not agree considering your position on the ATV board you have mentioned. Please support massive closures, not fight them.

-RPinenut
 
RE: Pro you are NOT a joke!

Pro,

I do not support overall cuts of tags. I am an opportunist as labelled by some of my friends here on the site! However in years of severe winter kill, I see NO problem with a short term cut in tags. The Habitat can support more deer already, IMO We do not need to further reduce deer herds to make way for fawns. Those new fawns can take the place of the hundreds of deer we lost over the winter.

The negative side to cutting any tags is we seem to have a very hard time in Utah getting those tags back once they are gone. Tough call. Can we continue to unleash the hordes of hunters on a decimated Northern region and expect the herd to flourish? I do not know, but I personally doubt. At a minimum we need to cut doe tags in areas decimated. To continue doe permits in these areas is crazy.

Also, I am not sure what you mean about the ATV trail closures. Most of the suggestions are in regards to the little off shoot "trails" that do not belong but have carved an easy access into prime habitat. We cannot and never will close structured legal trails. There are hundreds if not thousands of Illegal off shoot trails. These are the trails we need to shut down. They are already illegal, we simply need to help enforce there closure.
 
Grow More Deer!

Pinenut, when/where did I ever say that "cleaning up the illegal use of ATV's" would hurt hunting? I did NOT say/assert any such thing. I am saying that we won't ever see closures of ALL the trails out there. There is way too much money generated to the local economies for that to ever happen. I personally wouold love to see 90% closure of trails during hunting season, I am just saying I don't foresee it happening. I am NOT opposed to atv trail closures, but the committee myself and ww are on is NOT looking at closures at this point. We are looking at ways to educate riders/non-riders on what the current rules/laws are, how to enforce the current laws, and how to make the penalties stifer for those who break the laws. To make a bunch of changes just for the sake of change is akin to massive gun laws just because people are still dying from guns. We need to use reason and purpose, not emotion, to make improvements. ATV's have a place in out woods, and I do NOT see them being taken out of the picture during my lifetime, and that has NOTHING to do with my view of atv's, but is based purely on FACTS. The atv crowd has lots of money and lots of political support.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
more bucks

LAST EDITED ON May-14-08 AT 09:45AM (MST)[p]I've skimmed through most of the comments here. Forgive me if I duplicate other comments or ideas that have been raised, The Mule Deer Committe has just been formed. John Bair wil be the rep. from the Cemtral Region RAC. They will make the recommendations for the Wildlife board to consider and have implemented for the next five years.
Personally, I am very much in favor of creating smaller units- i.e. by using the already established management units. There may need to be some give or take or realignment of region boundries in order to keep habitat types conitigent. I believe that hunters should still be able to hunt the entire region, but, within each region the management units need to have clearly defined borders, so that if that unit has deer problems- good or bad- it can be closed, season shortened, or tags numbers restricted. During my time on the Central RAC, it has become apparent that the ability and or the desire of game managers to address specific areas that are struggling to meet deer objectives are not addressed. The attitude, right or wrong, is more of the overall picture. In other words, is the entire region doing okay, is the buck/doe ratio 15/100, is the population numbers close to objective ? I do not agree with this view of the management of our deer. I strongly believe if there is a problem in certain areas of the region, we need to take appropriate steps to protect and help that specific area. If we have too many deer by Heber and almost no deer by Levan how does it help either area to continue hunting as it is, help to solve either problem? I don't think that most hunters have a problem with protecting areas that are struggling.
The recruitment of young hunters has as much to do with the opportunity for success as it does with just being able to go hunting. Only seeing 15 does and fawns for 3 straight days isn't going to rev up any teen-agers desire to hunt. We certainly must provide opportunity, but what is within that opportunity?
At this point, I believe that we can and should have higher buck doe ratios and should manage to get closer to the herd number objectives. I believe "micro" management is the most plausible and effective solution. Make sure your RAC rep. knows how you feel-- especially if they are on the Deer Committee.
 
RE: more bucks

I used to love to hunt in Utah. Growing up here and hunting deer and elk with my grandpa,dad,family are memories I'll treasure forever. Had some big bucks give me the slip over the years, but have also had the opportunity to harvest some of them too. I personally have not taken a deer on a general season tag since 1996. It's not due to the fact of not having an opportunity. It has alot to do with Utah's sucky management. It's forced me to look into other states to spend most of my hunting time. I've lost the desire to hunt in Utah. Getting a good deer or elk tag is now a once in a lifetime event. A general season tag used to be a great hunt and can be again with proper management. Making it a once in a lifetime event and a shoot like the elk is not the answer for sure. What's the point of having big elk and deer if you can never get a tag to hunt them. And I use the term hunt because we need hunts not shoots like we have currently in our system. I ask,What's wrong with getting a tag and coming home empty handed? Nothing, in my opinion, and that is the way it should be at least 50% or less of the time. High success rate hunts like our elk are not the answer. Turning everyone loose with high powered rifles and scopes, muzzleloaders with scopes, bows with 85% let off, is not the answer. So what is the answer? How can we have opportunity and good animals at the same time? Plain and simple, it all has to do with success rates. The lower the success rates, the more tags that can be issued. It's not rocket science. How do we lower success rates? Season dates, weapons and weapon types used, atv access, scouting techniques such as chuteplanes, spotlighting, and 30/1,etc. etc. I'm sorry to offend those that think because they draw a tag that they have to kill an animal and use whatever means necessary to do it in order to have a great and successful hunt. I'm sorry you can't take your semi automatic bazooka during the rut. It's time for a change to a more restrictive system to lower success rates, keep opportunity, and make it a hunt again with some quality animals to be had too.
 
RE: more bucks

LAST EDITED ON May-14-08 AT 10:38PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-14-08 AT 10:35?PM (MST)

+1 to what 30 inch bucks has said. My dad, 2 brother and myself have all hunted the utah general season for as long as i can remember. we are avid hunters and have all participated in the dedicated hunter program in hopes to increase our chances of harvesting a good trophy buck. Out of the 4 of us, we have only filled one tag over the past 3 years in the Dedicated program. We have seen a few good deer and a rare great deer once a year if we were lucky. This last year our dedicated program expired and we all opted not to renew. In fact, we all opted out of hunting in UT period during the general season. Why? Simple...time and money. I took off a total of 3 weeks last year to hunt the UT and was very frustrated. That is a lot of time off work and money i am not making being gone. We then hunted in CO in november and i was blown away with HOW MANY good deer we saw in a non trophy unit. I was able to connect on my first 180 class buck! After our experience in in CO the decision to NOT hunt in UT and instead spend our time and money in other sates was an easy one. So, as for me, my dad and brothers we will NOT hunt the joke of a dear hunting state until the UTDWR can get their crap together and figure out how manage our fricken deer herds. UT will not be getting my money for a lot of years to come!
 
RE: more bucks

There are no answers, mule deer for the most part cannot take the trophy obsession that the masses and multitudes of utah hunters have, packing the latest 30-378 rifles, laser angle rangefinders, EL binos and spotters,trip cameras, ect ect, inside the latest kifaru tents, LED headlamps shining on magazine articles telling how to get back in the back country and coyote out for the big ones, and people wonder where the trophys are? Its not just utah, the greys river country in WY its shot, the words been out about colorado and its on the way down, Humans are good at loving things to death
 
RE: more bucks

If Utah goes to smaller units in 2009 as has been said,
in essence the whole state will be limited entry.
So, could you not get rid of the limited entry, General designations?
Keep the trophy areas (current Limited entry) with the same tag numbers (low) to keep trophy quality, but include all hunts in the same draw. (like Nevada)
However, you would need to change the draw system to allow a hunter to have more than just his first choice reviewed.
Allow a hunter to choose 3 or 5 units and allow all choices to be possibly drawn before moving to the next hunter in line in the draw.
that way a guy could put the henry's first if no draw get a second choice or third before moving to the next guy.
What do you think?
 
RE: more bucks

I personally am in favor of allowing hunters to continue to hunt an entire region, but, with the limitations I have stated before. Every region has certain areas that are in trouble, the DWR should have to limit or close those areas within the region that are not at least at objective. When they say that the Central Region will be at 15/100 ratio in 2009, it is a best guess. Deer population modeling is far from accurate. The CO's count deer on winter ranges,but their numbers are conveniently put in the garbage can because their not "qualified" according to one big game manager. That just blows me away that they don't consider their own CO's observation numbers. They are out in the field more than anyone and probably have a better feel for deer numbers than the guys that now mainly stay in the office. Public input concerning deer numbers or buck numbers very rarely have any impact on the DWR's recommendations. There are many times that even the DWR's own published data shows the real problem and it coincides with what the public already has observed. But, for some reason, probably financial- recommendations are made that don't seem to fit the problems. The only way that anything gets changed or ammended is convincing the Wildlife Board to change it. They ultimatey have the final say on any changes.
The Central Region RAC voted 4-4 to reduce permit numbers by 1000 for deer for the 2008 general deer hunt. But if that would have happened it would have created more of a financial burden on the DWR. I believe that the state should be willing to kick in additional money so that the number of licenses sold doesn't play such a major role in management decisions. I believe that the DWR would manage things a little different if they didn't have to worry about that so much. They do have the best interest of the animals and the hunters in mind, but they have to deal with political reality as well.
 
RE: more bucks

Many hunters fail to realize that we initially cut tags numbers so we can raise tag numbers in the future. Once a unit is over objective, tag numbers are raised.

Get rid of the limited entry status and lump all the units into to one draw. If you want to hunt nothing but the henrys or paunsaguant, you will be hunting every 5-15 years. If you want to hunt every year, there will be oppurtunities with less quality or more primitive weapons and everything in between. I'm sure there will be some units a guy could draw as a 2nd choice.

And finally, can you imagine a business owner that owns 3 "different" business' lumping all his accounts into one and managing all 3 as one.You just wouldn't do it! So why the heck do we sit back and let the state of Utah Manage 50-100+ "different" deer herds as FIVE. It makes absolutely no sense. I will never understand that mentality.

Mike
 
RE: Grow More Deer!

Pro,

You are right, you did not say you support the current amount of ATV access. I took your comment regarding being careful what you wish for to mean that you thought there were negative impacts of removing ATV's from deer hunting.

I don't however think it is just "emotion" to support reducing motor vehicle access as a way to improve Utah's deer hunting. I believe there is plenty of reason and a great purpose behind that. It is proven that increased motor vehicle access reduces buck survivability significantly...the problem we are trying to solve. Most of the new vehicle routes created in the last 20 years are ATV only routes, eliminating these seems to be the easiest way to significantly reduce motor vehicle access. This seems plenty reasonable to me.

Another not-so-considered way that ATV's have changed hunting deals with travel on snowy or muddy roads on the later seasons that would have otherwise been impassable. I had the pleasure of working my butt off to be on the face of Timp on the opener in 2004 when there was 18 inches of snow and trucks couldnt get around to the face. There were at least 50 ATV's that were able to get out there legally and it was a slaughter. In 1990 there would have been a significant carryover of bucks in the area due to the early heavy snow, but in 2004 the snow caused much of the older age class to be killed because it didnt slow access much at all and of course the deer were very active because of the storm (as a side note the Timpooneke ATV closure that they began to enfore in 2005 is awesome). This scenario played itself out over much of Northern Utah that year and over much of Colorado every year during the third season. They could give out so many more tags for the 3rd season Colorado deer hunts if ATV's were not allowed as a hunting tool for those hunts. If the F/G can regulate which caliber of gun I can use they surely can regulate which type of motor vehicle a person uses while hunting or traveling to hunting areas.

I think we are on the same team regarding this, but I guess I just suggest that your committee look at ways to close some trails that are "legal" in addition to the other positive actions you mention trying to take. Most of the ATV trails on Monroe Mtn for example were once foot trails then pack trails until the early to mid 1990's, but today they are regularly traveled legal ATV roads. I estimate that legal regularly traveled motor vehicle routes have increased by at least two-fold on Monroe in the last 15 years (with nearly if not 100% of these routes being ATV only routes), and mature deer numbers have suffered tremendously because of this. Preventing further new routes on Monroe stops the bleeding, but to improve the deer hunting on the unit without reducing permits by at least 50%, the routes that were formally pack trails but are now ATV roads that people have gotten used to driving on must be closed. This same scenario exists in pretty much every deer unit in the West.

-RPinenut
 
RE: more bucks

PineNut, the purpose of the committee is NOT to close trails, it is to educate people about the rules and why they are there, enforcement of current rules/laws, and how to deter poeple from breaking the rules/laws. I would LOVE to see a huge amount of ATV trails closed permantly, but that is NOT the role/purpose of this committee. I quit hunting on the mountain I grew up on, the Manti, because of all the ATV trails and riders being on every freakin ridge. I also agree 100% that atv usage has been a major contributor to the decline of deer quantity AND quality in many parts of Utah.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Apology for NoChawk & All

I didn't find any more data. I am sorry for loosely throwing around unsubstantiated facts.

Thank you NoChawk for calling me on this!!! This is a better forum because of you.
 
RE: Apology for NoChawk & All

NEBO:

Your posts are informative and thought out.

Its kinda funny that someone mentions smaller units and everyone automatically (like me) thinks that means smaller hunting units, as opposed to smaller management units.
 
RE: thebuckstopshere

thebuckstopshere- thanks, I truly believe that deer hunting in Utah can be better but it will take a different attitude by some big game managers-- and probably a little more work. Also trusting hunters, who, for the most part really do see the reality of the conditions and numbers of animals in certain areas. A willingness on the part of the big game managers and the Wildlife Board to make changes is the only way changes will be made to improve deer quantity and quality.
 
RE: more bucks

LAST EDITED ON May-22-08 AT 12:14PM (MST)[p] There are many, many factors involved in the decline of Utah deer. Some of us old enough remember when even a 4x4 pickup was rare. Spotting scopes were unheard of. Most didn't have a scope on their rifle. 200 yards was a LONG shot. How many people spent weekends scouting and patterning trophies? There weren't roads on every ridge and even if there were 6" of snow pretty much closed them. There were FAR fewer road kills. There were less than half the population and many families only had one car. Hunters kill fewer deer than nature and cars.
Managing units strictly for trophies can also have its downside long term. Most bucks don't have the genetics to be great bucks. As we become more efficient and picky as trophy hunters we start impacting the top genetics. After a while you have a lot of mature 3 points and 24" bucks doing a lot of breeding. Private ranches have been mentioned. If you look at the biology on those you find that the average age of the monsters gets younger and the management bucks gets older. Some areas may need to become 2-point or smaller or 22" or smaller units or something to give the trophies a chance to breed.
 
RE: Humble Pie Update

1)yes, but based on micromanagement not state wide objective.
2)NO way Jose. Instead, go to 35 units and assimilate all limited entry units into the general draw.
3) 35+ units
4)As needed
5)Yes
6)Yes, I coun't agree more.
7)Yes
8)Absolutely
9) $5 or even more
10)Yes

Your on the right track humblepie

Mike
 

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