Hunting expo tags......and yelling foul

LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-13 AT 03:25PM (MST)[p]Eastmans' don't think too highly of the hunt expo either according to their email they send out.
I am not trying to start a SFW and hunting expo bash. I just thought it was interesting that others that aren't even in Utah are starting to raise concerns with the expo and the tags.
 
We are concerned because we do not want to see the same thing happen in our states.

In Colorado we just saw 5% of all tags go into the hands of landowners from the public. These tags are sold as vouchers to highest bidders.

You can bet that the outfitters here would love to see the Utah system come into play...
 
I like Eastman's but it was kinda ironic criticism considering Wyoming has the 2nd most auction tags in the US. Granted, the system is not as currupt, but still. Just sayin.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
It is an interesting article but not exactly correct. SFW and MDF have nothing to do with the tags that are put into the 200 tag draw. That is done by the DWR. The auction tags come from the conservation tags and the 200 tags are convention tags set by the DWR.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-13 AT 06:25PM (MST)[p]Birdman-

The conservation groups lobbied the DWR to set aside the 200 convention tags for the Expo. They have also fought to keep those permits. I also find it highly unlikely that the groups had no input regarding the DWR removing some of the the "higher priced" tags from the drawing this past year. Why raffle San Juan and Pahvant elk tags when you can sell those tags for 20 or 30k? Hence, the decision to remove some of the premium tags this year and replace them with turkey, cougar and other less desirable permits. It is all about maximizing the monetary return on those permits.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
No defense intended. Just a clarification. Seen you at the RAC last night Hawkeye. You left a little early. The fact is that the auction tags were divided up amongst the groups back in the summer. Those the tags that go to SFW MDF RMEF Turkey, SCI, FNAWS. The tags that were put into the 200 were picked by the assistant director of the DWR. Had nothing to do with SFW or MDF. If it had been you can bet that the turkey tags would not have been there. I Attended those meetings and seen exactly what happened. True SFW did lobby for those tags but they have had no input as to what tags go into the 200. I believe that there was a San Juan tag in the raffle. I also believe that the three Pahvant tags that were auctioned off were land owner tags.
Hawkeye, I find it highly interesting that a Lawyer would not find out the truth about the situation before spouting off on something that you apparently do not understand.
Topgun, Yes trying to get the truth out. I know that you do not want the truth out because it will not agree with your so called finding. The facts are the facts and not one person on here will take the time to find out. They will just go and do what they can to discredit the Expo.
 
Birdman-

I wish I would have met you in person last night. I have enjoyed our Internet conversations over the past year but it is always good to put a face with a name. You apparently know who I am. Come introduce yourself next time you see me. I promise I don't bite.

Sit down and compare the 200 Expo tags that were made available to the public this year to prior years. What you will see is that there was a reduction in some of the quality tags. Why did that occur? Was there a corresponding reduction in quality permits in the conservation (auction) tags?

Oh, and by the way, I have taken the time to find out plenty of facts about the Expo. I have wasted far too much time sorting through the history of the Expo and convention permits. Sorry for "spouting off" Birdman. I will will exercise more restraint in the future.

Hawkeye

>No defense intended. Just a
>clarification. Seen you at
>the RAC last night Hawkeye.
> You left a little
>early. The fact is
>that the auction tags were
>divided up amongst the
>groups back in the summer.
> Those the tags that
>go to SFW MDF RMEF
>Turkey, SCI, FNAWS.
>The tags that were put
>into the 200 were picked
>by the assistant director of
>the DWR. Had nothing
>to do with SFW or
>MDF. If it had been
>you can bet that the
>turkey tags would not have
>been there. I Attended
>those meetings and seen exactly
>what happened. True SFW
>did lobby for those tags
>but they have had no
>input as to what tags
>go into the 200.
>I believe that there was
>a San Juan tag in
>the raffle. I also
>believe that the three Pahvant
>tags that were auctioned off
>were land owner tags.
> Hawkeye,
> I find it highly
>interesting that a Lawyer would
>not find out the truth
>about the situation before spouting
>off on something that you
>apparently do not understand.
> Topgun,
> Yes trying to get
>the truth out. I
>know that you do not
>want the truth out because
>it will not agree with
>your so called finding.
> The facts are the
>facts and not one person
>on here will take the
>time to find out.
>They will just go and
>do what they can to
>discredit the Expo.


Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Defense, clarification, or whatever yadayadayada! I can't believe you would think anyone would believe this statement of yours: "True SFW did lobby for those tags but they have had no input as to what tags go into the 200". Regardless of what you try to come up with, it was three more premium tags taken from the average Joe pools to be sold to the high rollers!!! Now come back with more baloney to contradict that and please don't tell me that I don't want to know the truth about this or anything else because I certainly do! PS: The post by Hawkeye was more than polite in response to yours and was not spouting off.
 
Still crying screaming and whining about less than %1 of the big game tags in the state. The boat is sinking and yall are fighting over who is going to change the oil in the motor. And the mule deer suffer a little more.
 
That is the problem with you Topgun. Those three tags would have been there even if no conservation tags or 200 tags would have been available. But then you have no idea what goes on here or how it works according to law. All you get is the hate SFW side of things. That is great. I wish you the best in your hunting this fall. You really do not know how things work and what is happening but then again those that hate SFW seem to think they know what is going on. They jump at straws or anything that they can. They complain constantly about things but then never attend a RAC meeting or a Board meeting to find out what is going on or how things work. The rac meetings are in the evening and the Board meetings in the day. They should be able to attend at least one of them. You are a prime example of how people that hate SFW do things. They are in the distance but believe anything that they hear. Enough said.
 
>That is the problem with you
>Topgun. Those three tags
>would have been there even
>if no conservation tags or
>200 tags would have been
>available. But then you
>have no idea what goes
>on here or how it
>works according to law.
>All you get is the
>hate SFW side of things.
> That is great.
> I wish you the
>best in your hunting this
>fall. You really do
>not know how things work
>and what is happening but
>then again those that hate
>SFW seem to think they
>know what is going on.
> They jump at straws
>or anything that they can.
> They complain constantly about
>things but then never attend
>a RAC meeting or a
>Board meeting to find out
>what is going on or
>how things work. The rac
>meetings are in the evening
>and the Board meetings in
>the day. They should
>be able to attend at
>least one of them.
> You are a prime
>example of how people that
>hate SFW do things.
>They are in the distance
>but believe anything that they
>hear. Enough said.

+1!!!
avatar-1.png
 
elks96
I don't understand your complaint.
You say 5% of the tags go to landowners?
So what, don't the landowners have a right to choose who hunts on their land and profit off the wildlife that are using or causing damage to their crops?
I used to guide deer hunts over there in Dove Creek/Cortez area bean fields using landowner vouchers, it was a win win for everyone!
Would you rather the DOW issue those 5% tags on top of the already allotted tag numbers and kill an additional 5% of your deer??
Shouldn't you be more grateful that they are limiting the number of animals harvested each year using both entities?
That 5% of vouchers is saving 5% of public animals, not taking 5% away!!
Ok your right......lets add 5% back to general public and keep 5% to landowners to keep them happy and kill 10% more deer, makes perfect sense! :eek:




avatar-1.png
 
Birdman-

While there may be a few people out there who "simply hate SFW", there are plenty of people who have researched the issues and disagree with SFW and other conservation groups on key issues. That does not mean that those people hate SFW or its leadership. Rather, it means that they have a difference of opinion on certain key issues. It is fairly dismissive to assume that everyone that disagrees with SFW or the other conservation groups is motiovated by hate. I am pleased to say that I agreed with SFW's position regarding the elk permit allocations for the the three units adding late season rifle hunts this year. I went to the RAC meeting on Tuesday to comment on that particular issue but after hearing UBA, SFW, UWC and numerous individuals raise the exact same concern, I decided not to comment. I appreciate SFW's stance on that issue but I recognize that we still disagree on many others, which is perfectly okay.

Hawkeye
Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-18-13 AT 09:04AM (MST)[p]Birdman---Please read closely what Hawkeye stated, as he is on the button in that most of us don't HATE SFW. You are always in the know on everything involving SFW so please answer this one question. How much did those three tags that were placed in the auction go for? You even said you "believe" they were landdowner tags, but believing and knowing for sure are obviously two different things. It will be easier for you to find that out than it will be for me and I have plenty of time to wait for the answer. If they went for a low amount of money that any of us common people could afford, I will offer a full apology. If not, I rest my case wherever they came from!
 
There is a groundswell of opposition to the large number of expo / conservation tags in Utah, and the more people that learn the facts the better. It is no surprise that Sportmans decided to take a position, along with Eastman's.

Since the very definition of "lobbying" is to try to influence the decisions of policy makers, is is purposefully deceitful to state that SFW and MDF had nothing to do with this tag allocation when they lobbied for it. No doubt claims were made about the increased revenue these premium tags would generate, and yes, the DWR caved to the money argument. It doesn't make the DWR or even SFW evil, just motivated by more money in their coffers, rather than what is best for most sportsmen.

This is the fundamental flaw in these tag auction / raffle programs. While undoubtedly started with good intentions, the potential for greed and corruption is overwhelming. Our elected officials are as vulnerable as conservation organizations such as SFW and MDF. It takes incredible conviction and adherence to principles to avoid this temptation, and it is obvious some have fallen prey to these vices.

It isn't about hate, or jealousy. It is simply about doing the right thing - A concept that is quickly vanishing across much of our society.
Bill
 
You are right Topgun. Not all are haters. I guess I just take it from those that end with SFW hater. I know that there well never be a complete agreement with all that goes on with wildlife. We all have our own opinions and push our own issue. While it is true that SFW does lobby the state for different things, it is the agreement of the board to go after different issues. It may in some ways benefit SFW but on the other hand, the issues that they go after greatly benefit the general public as well. I have never seen an issue taken up by the board to go against the general public. That is my opinion and as you say, I am entitled to my opinion. No not all agree with my opinion but not all agree with other opinions. One thing is sure that SFW is continuing to grow as is the expo meaning that more people are happy with what is going on.
As for the tags that were auctioned off at the expo for the Pahvant, the three tags were auctioned off during the Friday day auction which I do not have the opportunity to attend. All three of those tags were landowner tags. As for the price I do not know. However on Friday night at that auction there was a conservation tag that was a premium Pahvant tag that sold for $20,000 dollars. If you don't know a premium tag is a tag where the hunter can hunt all three hunts. Muzzle loader, archery, and rifle.
I am sure that none of the tags sold for a cheep amount. Sorry that you have not been successful enough in life to afford some of these tags. The good thing is that the money goes to create more animals for those of us to hunt that can not afford to buy these high priced tags. It looks like a win win situation for all of us.
 
Birdman quote "I have never seen a issue taken up by the board to go against the general public." Hmmm Can you say stream access????
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-29-13 AT 11:53 AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Mar-29-13 AT 11:52 AM (MST)

I for one think it is a crock of something smelly and saw it coming.... i feel they KNEW what they were doing all along...they had sheep counts done in NOV

total of
6 NR only desert tags 5 draw 1 expo RESIDENT 32 draw
5 NR only rocky tags 4 draw 1 expo RESIDENT 36 draw

PLUS
6 desert CONSERVATION
7 rocky CONSERVATION

LBH posted:

"While I wasn't in any meetings to know for sure, I am told our Big Game Coordinator didn't catch the change until late in the game, and then he thought it was no big deal to let it go for a year."

this is unacceptable IMHO, did not notice the change? BS

here are a couple posts i made a few MONTHS ago

are we looking at a bump in sheep tags in UT?

this year they are giving 4 desert and 3 rocky/cali tags in the draw plus the 1 rocky and 1 desert at the expo to NR only....so are we to assume at least 50 desert and 40 cali/rocky tags for residents???

2013 #'s
5 desert and 4 rocky/cali are NR only

last year they only gave 31 rocky/cali tags (29 R and 2NR) and 39 desert total tags (36R and 3NR) residents and non-residents in the draw plus 7 desert tags in auctions and expo draws and 10 rocky/cali in auctions and expo draws...of which 1 NR desert and 1 rocky/cali NR which put the NR pool bigger than 10%


2012 total tag #'s
46 desert (39 draw, 7 other)
41 rocky/cali (31 draw, 10 other)

so roughly 15% of the desert tags were auctioned or expoed
and 25% of the rocky/cali auctioned or expoed

FYI i got these #'s by comparing what tags were given in the general draw and by 2012 harvest figures...


AND


as i read LBH's post i realised that i missed a desert tag
so currenty we have

5 deserts in the MAIN UT DRAW for non-residents
1 desert in the EXPO DRAW for non-residents only

so are to assume 60 desert tags??? i kind of doubt that!!!!

for the sake of my resident sheep hunting friends i hope YOUR tag was not allocated in the NR pool

of course no offense to you NR hunters but i am rooting for the local boys and girls to have a shot at them....


Re
 
Birdman---You have now made another incorrect assumption when you stated you were sorry I wasn't successful enough in life to afford those tags. How do you know what I'm worth? FYI I could buy one of those tags if I wanted to, but no animal is worth that kind of money to me because it's the outdoors and the pursuit where I get my kicks and not from pulling the trigger! Sure, I'd like to shoot a nice buck or maybe a bull, but there is no way I would get satisfaction by buying my way to that animal the way those auction tags do. Finally, you may want to really look at where a good percentage of that tag money is going and if it's doing such great things why are more and more people standing up against them? I have a feeling the way things are building that there may be some drastic changes coming when the Expo contract is up for renewal and open bidding. Time will tell!
 
Topgun, again you are right and I apologize for my mistake. I do not know anything about your financial situation. I am glad that if you wanted to you could buy one of those tags. I agree with you that no tag or animal is worth the money that some of those pay to hunt them. To me and apparently you it is not worth the money. The thing is to others, it is worth the money. They have it to spend and they love to do it. Not everyone is the same. Does that make it wrong for them to do it if you disagree with them?
As for the money that comes from the tags, expo, or anything else you want to bring up, I am satisfied with where the money is going. I feel it is going to great things. Not in peoples pockets but to great things. You can disagree if you want, but that is what I see and feel. As stated before, with the expo growing and membership growing like it is with SFW, I would guess that people must be happy with the way things are going. They sure are putting their money there. I see some that disagree with what goes on. They call me now and again to visit about the situation and what I think. It may be growing some but the fact remains that SFW is growing.
As for the Expo and changes coming when the contract comes up, I am not worried. Isn't it great that groups will be able to compete for the contract if they meet the requirements? Besides it might be good to have another show here in Utah in the spring. I think it would be interesting. I guess we will still have to wait a few more years to find out.
 
I don't believe for a minute that SFW is growing. I've never seen published membership figures for each state, and with the self promotion ability SFW has shown over the years, if the numbers were really that strong they would publish them.

I would expect that only a small percentage of members would sign up at the Expo if they were a strong organization. Or perhaps its membership has learned that by waiting until the Expo they can get extra freebees by renewing on-site. Claiming that memberships were up during the Expo this year is just another smoke screen to hide the true numbers.
I will gladly apologize if the figures are published and I am wrong, but I'm not worried.
Bill
 
llamapacker, You are free to believe what you want. You are right about one thing, Members do renew at the expo for the freebees. The thing I know is that I was the one that put those that signed up at the expo in the computer. Largest amount of first time members signing up than ever before. There is over 13,000 members with at least one in every state. By the way, you can apologize as it is on the SFW website. No one expects you to apologize as I don't think you would. You are also right that if SFW wanted to they could blow smoke but then you and others here on MM are doing a great job of that.
 
>elks96
>I don't understand your complaint.
>You say 5% of the tags
>go to landowners?
>So what, don't the landowners have
>a right to choose who
>hunts on their land and
>profit off the wildlife that
>are using or causing damage
>to their crops?
>I used to guide deer hunts
>over there in Dove Creek/Cortez
>area bean fields using landowner
>vouchers, it was a win
>win for everyone!
>Would you rather the DOW issue
>those 5% tags on top
>of the already allotted tag
>numbers and kill an additional
>5% of your deer??
>Shouldn't you be more grateful that
>they are limiting the number
>of animals harvested each year
>using both entities?
>That 5% of vouchers is saving
>5% of public animals, not
>taking 5% away!!
>Ok your right......lets add 5% back
>to general public and keep
>5% to landowners to keep
>them happy and kill 10%
>more deer, makes perfect sense!
>:eek:
>

That idea is good if that is the way it worked, those landowner tags are valid anywhere in the unit, public or private land so that argument is invalid. I don't have the numbers but would love for them to be shown if available on the percentage of animals that are shot on public land with landowner vouchers.
Those vouchers should only be valid for the private property they are issued for!

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"


Let me guess, you drive a 1 ton with oak trees for smoke stacks, 12" lift kit and 40" tires to pull a single place lawn mower trailer?
 
>Birdman---You have now made another incorrect
>assumption when you stated you
>were sorry I wasn't successful
>enough in life to afford
>those tags. How do
>you know what I'm worth?
> FYI I could buy
>one of those tags if
>I wanted to, but no
>animal is worth that kind
>of money to me because
>it's the outdoors and the
>pursuit where I get my
>kicks and not from pulling
>the trigger! Sure, I'd
>like to shoot a nice
>buck or maybe a bull,
>but there is no way
>I would get satisfaction by
>buying my way to that
>animal the way those auction
>tags do. Finally, you
>may want to really look
>at where a good percentage
>of that tag money is
>going and if it's doing
>such great things why are
>more and more people standing
>up against them? I
>have a feeling the way
>things are building that there
>may be some drastic changes
>coming when the Expo contract
>is up for renewal and
>open bidding. Time will
>tell!


Every time you buy a tag to hunt in any state you are buying your way to an animal. The auction tags are just more expensive than a draw tag. Everytime you get a PP in Wyoming you are buying your way to the front of the line. You are just doing it slower and cheaper than the auciton tag guys. How you get the tag does not determine the satisfaction of the hunt. How you hunt the animal determines the satisfaction of the hunt. I have and will continue to purchase tags whether landowner tag, auctions, raffles or draw and I will enjoy everyone of the those hunts as much as my general wyo elk tag. Because I will hunt how I enjoy hunting not how someone else tells me I should do it.
 
How about a little more fuel. The only 2 people I know on the list of successful applicants are SFW board members. How many SFW board members were successful drawing tags?
 
>How about a little more fuel.
> The only 2 people
>I know on the list
>of successful applicants are SFW
>board members. How many
>SFW board members were successful
>drawing tags?


***Very interesting. You would think that just maybe to at least keep things looking like it's on the up and up that Board Members would either not be allowed to enter or would decide not to just so there would be no accusations of wrongdoing.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-18-13 AT 03:51PM (MST)[p]>Mulecreek, great post. I truly
>believe what you stated is
>spot on.



***Cut it any way you want to with those remarks, but the way average people work their way to draw tags is so dissimilar from buying a tag at auction that it's simply pathetic to say there is really no difference other than how fast you get there! It sure is easy to spot the koolaide drinkers that have been taken in by the Swami hook, line, and sinker!!!
 
Let's face it... At its most basic, we are all waiting in line for a LE hunt... The auction tag allows somebody to walk past us all and kill that trophy animal while simultaneously making us wait just that much longer... In other walks of life, nobody likes anybody to "butt" in line, or even to see someone walk up the line and say "Oh, my friend Don is saving me a spot"... Ya know..??

Does anybody like that..??

Why do we allow it as the general public..?? Well, because every once in a while, the DWR guy walks down the line and pulls some of us out of line and says "congratulations, you only had to wait 5 years..!!" And then marches us up to the front of the line with the auction tag holders...

Frankly, it seems we like gambling. Pay $10 bucks to put in for the LE hunt. Pay $5 to put in at the Expo... And hope you draw... If we weren't content with those aspects of our wildlife program, maybe the rest of us would all raise more of a ruckus about the lobbying and big money stuff that goes on...

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
>LAST EDITED ON Apr-18-13
>AT 03:51?PM (MST)
>
>>Mulecreek, great post. I truly
>>believe what you stated is
>>spot on.
>
>
>
>***Cut it any way you want
>to with those remarks, but
>the way average people work
>their way to draw tags
>is so dissimilar from buying
>a tag at auction that
>it's simply pathetic to say
>there is really no difference
>other than how fast you
>get there! It sure
>is easy to spot the
>koolaide drinkers that have been
>taken in by the Swami
>hook, line, and sinker!!!


TG,

Dude!! I go to baseball practice and come back to find that you think I am a koolaid drinker. So disapointing. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have no use for that organization and will fight them every step of the way as they try to get a hold into Wyoming. Not becasue they auction tags but becasue they are corupt and serve no purpose other than to help themselves.

Now back to the point. I would agree with you if every tag was auctioned off but that isnt even close to the case. Even so the auction is just an extreme version of pricing. I would imagine there are more than a couple people on this site that would find the $2000 Wyoming NR sheep tag as far from their reality as you and I would the Antelope Island deer tag. It is all a matter of degrees.
 
I feel like a lot of people are missing the point. The point that is trying to be driven home, is the fact that hunting is quickly turning into a rich mans sport. When sportsman's warehouse and Eastmans' are speaking up saying whoa we need to stop this trend, I think we all need to take a look at the big picture.
Yes we all pay money every year in hopes that our name gets drawn and we get to go hunt our dream LE hunt. Of course we pay, how else are the DOW officials going to get paid? How are the individual states going to create better habitat and what not, With out us doing our parts and paying the small application fees?
I am not blaming the wealthy people. If I had $300,000 to spend on a hunt, you better believe I would do it. I am pretty sure we all would. They are not the ones that should get the finger pointed at. I don't have a problem with the DWR auctioning some tags off. Let the high dollar guys pay thousands of dollars for a hunt. By them paying the thousands of dollars for these tags it is benefiting each and everyone of us.
The problem is is that every sportsman's group wants numerous tags for their group to auction off. Like I said above, if the DWR wants to auction tags, then so be it. But the DWR is the ones who need to be the ones auctioning the tags. If the DWR wants to have a hunt expo, then the DWR needs to put it on and let all that money generated go into the states wildlife funds. I don't have a problem with RMEF, MDF, WSF or any other foundation to auction only a few tags each year. Again my personal opinion is that a good portion should go back into that states wildlife funds.
I feel a lot of the problem is each year these groups want a few more tags to auction. With this trend that is developing, eventually hunting is going to turn into who is willing to bid the most for a tag.
Like I said each states DWR should auction tags off, or let the foundations auction tags. My opinion is the auction tags just need to be reduced to a lower number, which in return would probably result in those tags selling for a higher amount.
 
Topgun has got to be the biggest DOUCHE on this site anymore. IF anyone disagrees with him, then they are SFW lovers! I REALLY wish there was an IGNORE button so I could just quit reading all his crap!
 
"The thing is to others, it is worth the money. They have it to spend and they love to do it. Not everyone is the same. Does that make it wrong for them to do it if you disagree with them?"

YES, it makes it wrong! Hunting should be for everyone, not just those guys will deep pockets. These tags were taken away from the general public and are now being sold to the guys "that can afford it".

IT IS WRONG!

Those guys with deep pockets need to wait the 18 years just like everybody else.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-19-13 AT 08:24AM (MST)[p]That's a real good one as I don't believe anyone is being forced to read anything on these Forums now are they? These people are cutting each other to pieces and I put up a couple posts figuring one or two guys are drinkers because of statements they made about auction tags. So I may have been wrong. Big deal---Get over it man! Read the other lengthy thread up here near the top started by slamdunk, as there were more than a few DB comments on that one and there's not a single post of mine on it!
 
Birdman,
You claim SFW membership numbers are on their web site. I can't find it, so why don't you post a link? I'm not the first person to ask for this info, and aside from supporters such as yourself posting vague numbers on this site, I haven't seen anything from SFW. Several chapters, such as WY-SFW have publicly refused to post their membership numbers.
Enlighten us all. Show us how membership is rising across SFW. If there is such a positive response as you claim, it is in SFW's best interest to shout it from the roof tops. The silence speaks volumes.
Bill
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-19-13 AT 10:34AM (MST)[p]llamapacker---I just found where they are claiming 13,000 members spread throughout all 50 states on their website. Bob Wharff, Executive Dir. of the Wyoming Chapter, claimed there are 8,000 members in Wyoming that he speaks for during testimony before a Legislative Committee and in a recent PM to me. Draw your own conclusions about the actual numbers, but I find it hard to believe if there are 13,000 that Wyoming has 8,000 of them! Anyway, the 13,000 is there in black and white and if that's their total membership in all the states the number is squat in the total picture. Here is the C/P off the website:

About SFW
SFW is a team of 13,000 members spread throughout all 50 states. We are intensely dedicated to the perpetuation of wildlife, and we're passionate about hunting. Our membership is a collection of sportsmen and women including everything from average hunters and influential celebrities, to wildlife experts, firearm and ammunition manufacturers, taxidermists, guides and outfitters. We all work together to create a future for wildlife and for hunters.
 
It would also be nice to know what a member is? Is an 18 year old kid on a family membership purchased at a banquet table a "member". Are employees of small companies with corporate memberships purchased as tax deductible donations considered members? Is a guy that stops to verify his license at the expo and gets a free guncase a "member". Is someone that accidently signs up for an email blast website like BGF considered a member since it is tied to the parent org?

Would be nice to know if membership requires something beyond just a general disregard for public draw hunters and a love for banquets. Maybe they should cover banquets in hunter education. Which fork do I use again? The last banquet I enjoyed was in high school and it was called a "prom". I would rather be hunting.
 
TOPGUN,

Sorry but you are once again proving that you are either incompetent or simply a LIAR! Go back and re-read the pm's sent back and forth between the two of us. You know the one where you told me to kiss your a$$ and see what I told you.

My guess is that the 13,000 is more a count from the magazine circulation rather than an actual membership count. WY SFW has family members which receive only one magazine per household; others, some families are larger than others and may have two magazines per household. It all depends on how you count them.

One reason you don't throw a number out there is because of (insert your choice of expletives here) like bottomrung will ultimately attempt to use them against you as seen demonstrated here.

The important point to all of this is that WY SFW has never spoken for anyone other than its members, period. WY SFW has never claimed to represent anything other than our members.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-19-13 AT 12:40PM (MST)[p]TOPGUN,
>
>Sorry but you are once again
>proving that you are either
>incompetent or simply a LIAR!
> Go back and re-read
>the pm's sent back and
>forth between the two of
>us. You know the
>one where you told me
>to kiss your a$$ and
>see what I told you.
>
>
>My guess is that the 13,000
>is more a count from
>the magazine circulation rather than
>an actual membership count.
>WY SFW has family members
>which receive only one magazine
>per household; others, some families
>are larger than others and
>may have two magazines per
>household. It all depends
>on how you count them.
>
>
>One reason you don't throw a
>number out there is because
>of (insert your choice of
>expletives here) like bottomrung will
>ultimately attempt to use them
>against you as seen demonstrated
>here.
>
>The important point to all of
>this is that WY SFW
>has never spoken for anyone
>other than its members, period.
> WY SFW has never
>claimed to represent anything other
>than our members.


***So now you're calling names again and telling me that the PM you sent me where you told me that the 8000 number you gave in that testimony that one member stated were contacts were actual database members off your computer wasn't sent?! Be careful if you come back and remember it was sent to me and is in black and white right in my inbox and I may just have shared that message with several other members!!! Oh, what the heck! I'll come right out and say it after you come on here and attack me with that nonsense. You are a ******* LIAR!!! We are not asking for guesses like you're giving regarding a UTSFW statement that is right out on the website in black and white for us to read saying they have 13,000 MEMBERS!!! Also, remember that you are always the one who says each state is independent of the others. Nope, you come on here spouting more BS with more twists and turns than a friggin gymnast!!! You have really stooped to an all time low to now come on in your capacity and try to BS your way out of another one that you got caught in. Why the he** would I say you had that number if you hadn't stated it out in public and to me in black and white? I'm really awaiting how you'll twist and turn that one, LOL! Remember that your statement to the Legislator is still right out on the thread in the Wyoming Forum too and if you recall in your PM you even told me who the Legislator was that asked you that question on member numbers. Incidentally, you should have kept your mouth shut here again because if what you say is true then that means SFW doesn't even have 13,000 members in the entire country, LOL!!! (Shot yourself in the foot again there booby!) Just to refresh your memory:

jm77
Mar-18-13, 09:49 AM (MST)
20. "RE: SFW"
When asked by a legislator this past session how many Wyoming members he represented, Mr Bob said "I have 8000 contacts". Too bad the legislator didn't make him really answer the question.
 
javahammer, It is interesting that a guy that stops to verify his license at the expo gets a free gun case. Never heard or seen that. I will have to look harder next time. A person is a member when he signs his name and the money is paid. Not until. If a person at a banquet table decides to become a member then he fills out the card at the banquet. If he does not want to, he does not have to. Yes if there is multiple members in a family, one magazine is sent to the address. There am people all the time that attend banquets that do not sign up for a membership. I did not know that a membership requires a general disregard for public draw hunters and the love of banquets. Sounds to me like you are very miss informed and really do not care about the truth. There will always be people that appose things.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-19-13 AT 01:07PM (MST)[p]Birdman---Nice response to javahammer! How about a true response on numbers instead of that crap that Bob just posted! I believe you stated in the last several days that you were the one who inputted the new members into the database after the Expo was held. Do you not have the working knowledge to make a good guess on the total numbers, or do you know if the 13,000 posted on the website is a true, factual member base count?
 
Smokestick,

I will say this, out of all the SFW guys that post on this board, you've been the most honest and most willing to participate. Not an easy thing to do and no question you catch grief from both ends regarding WYSFW.

That said, I believe there are times that SFW, WYSFW, and YOU...all cast a pretty wide loop regarding who you "represent" with your stances.

I have a good memory and it took me about 2 minutes to recall what you posted in the Wyoming section just a couple weeks ago in regard to the license fee increases:

WY SFW stood up for ALL hunters as we want to see the G&F Department review their budget.

How can you stand up for "ALL hunters" when I believe you scarcely know what your own dues paying members want? How often is your general membership asked about all the things you testify on and push at the Commission meetings, Legislature, and G&F meetings? I do believe that you do ask your executive board what they think, but thats very different from what the general membership believes/wants. This is true of many orgs. and the trap of "group think"...

I can assure you that 95%+ of "ALL hunters" in Wyoming could give a chit less one way or the other what WYSFW thinks...yet you feel compelled to stand up for them?

Doesnt add up, and I know at least one hunter who doesnt need WYSFW's representation.

IME, and IMO, the truth regarding things that you know to be facts are never a bad thing to share. That includes the active and up-to-date numbers on how many members SFW, and WYSFW have.

By mis-stating or trying to bolster your membership by saying chit like, "I have 8000 email contacts"...it does you and WYSFW a huge amount of damage. While I believe that you do have 8,000 email contacts, I know there arent 8,000 dues paying WYSFW members in Wyoming.

Deceitful answers are never a good thing...

Carry on.
 
thanks Birdman...yep uninformed.

Let me introduce you to the term "barrier to entry"

- The code surrounding convention permits presents a BARRIER TO ENTRY for challenging convention orgs because a history of performance is required. It is a hurdle for new players....see section R657-55-1

http://www.rules.utah.gov/publicat/code/r657/r657-055.htm

- The Utah system of CMWU, dedicated hunter, LE tags,lifetime license holders, convention, auction, onsite license validation, raffles...the list goes on. All of these schemes have their own entry requirements and present a BARRIER TO ENTRY to most general draw hunters. Since all of these tags come from the same overall PUBLIC WILDLIFE tag pool, opportunity is expanded for the game players and reduced for general draw applicants. General draw applicants have invested TIME and MONEY toward drawing these tags and if the value of that time was recognized there would be very few tags auctioned or raffled that would be worth auctioning for the public (especially if you adjust for the time value of money). The group you work for has generally supported many of these tag distribution schemes. In my opinion this suggests a general disregard for public draw hunters. I find it interesting that even the dedicated hunter hours can be purchased.

- I have also spent considerable time looking at the participants and details of prior EXPOS. In a nutshell, I found the claims around local economic impacts to be overstated based on the people and businesses that participated. The fact that those that wish to obtain a raffle tag must validate their license onsite creates a BARRIER TO ENTRY for non-locals. Especially if some of these tags came from the non-resident portion of the tag pool.

- I also find it curious that members of this group seem to be overwhelming proponents of reducing tags. The logic often changes but the rally cry is always the same. From my perspective this is simply a ploy to reduce supply and increase demand. The tag reductions are usually on the public side and present a BARRIER TO ENTRY and opportunity for the public. In return the wealthy game players get a marginally better hunting experience and the autioneers, outfitters and landowners make more money.

I have a novel idea. If your group wants to truly represent the interests of the hunting public and assure the future of hunting. Why dont you fight to put the tags back in the public drawing and return to a time when hunting skill and trophy quality were correleated. Leave the expos and banquets for the ball gown crowd. A group that profits from finding and pushing for increasing BARRIERS TO ENTRY is not acting in the best interests of the public. I find it hard to believe their are 13,000 people that support climbing over the bodies of fellow hunters to acquire more bone for their wall. It would be sad if it were actually true.
 
"Why dont you fight to put the tags back in the public drawing and return to a time when hunting skill and trophy quality were correleated."


Dude I want some of what you are smoking. Whats the temperature like in fairy land today?
 
I still don't understand what we need SFW for? When KSL took down there gun site, it took less than a day for gun classified to pop up. Am I to believe that the Utah DWR is so incapable they couldn't have an online auction for these tags and keep all the money? WE give SFW tags, they sell them, then they take the money, and write checks back to the DWR, keeping a cut. WHY??? WHY DO WE NEED SFW? Perhaps in the early 90's the case could be made, but is it really necessary in 2013? I have a cell phone that I can watch tv on, but the DWR can't auction off tags and keep 100% of the money? I don't like what SFW has become, but thats neither here nor there, THERE IS NO NEED FOR SFW AND THEIR EXPO to "raise money for conservation". Lot of smart guys on here, perhaps I am dense, but how does losing a percentage to a third party good for the DWR, hence us?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
"Am I to believe that the Utah DWR is so incapable they couldn't have an online auction for these tags and keep all the money?"


YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

Finaly someone asks a real question and brings the real culprits into the issue.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-19-13 AT 04:07PM (MST)[p]To answer the question from yesterday about the auction prices for Elk. Here's the data from some research I'd done. It includes only the Utah Elk tag selling prices from the '13 Expo:

9-Mile Premium Elk 7,500.00
Pahvant Landowner Elk, Hunter Choice 16,000.00
Pahvant Landowner Elk 16,500.00
Pahvant Landowner Elk 17,500.00
Pahvant Premium Elk 20,000.00
Monroe Premium Elk 18,500.00
San Juan Landowner Elk Hunters Choice 20,000.00
San Juan Landowner Elk Hunters Choice 20,000.00
San Juan Landowner Elk 19,000.00
San Juan Any Weapon Elk 26,000.00
San Juan Any Weapon Elk 23,000.00
San Juan Any Weapon Elk 23,000.00
San Juan Premium Elk 36,000.00
Paunsaugunt Landowner Elk 16,500.00
Paunsaugunt Landowner Elk 20,000.00
Boulder Elk Archery 10,500.00
Mt. Dutton Premium Elk 11,500.00
Fishlake Premium Elk 11,000.00
LaSal Premium Elk 16,000.00
Bookcliff's Bittercreek South Premium Elk 14,500.00
Plateau Boulder Elk 19,500.00
Plateau Boulder/ Kaparowits Premium Elk 26,000.00
Southwest Desert Elk Premium 14,000.00
Utah Statewide Elk 65,000.00
 
Topgun, I will do the best I can to answer your question and then let you rip on me some more. I do not know what Wyoming has for members. I know that of the hundreds of people that signed up at the expo most were non members. There were members there that sign up every year at the expo. Just something that they do so to keep current. There are also those that sign up every year at the banquets. Just the way it works. As for the total population, I do not have an exact number but I personally think that the 13,000 number is low. How much low I do not know.
Javihammer, yep, I do believe you are uninformed. I see what you wrote but I also see that you have no idea how the program works. And yes to put in on the tags, you have to have a license just like you do when you put in for the regular draw. What is the problem with that. Same principle.
hosblur, If you took time to go to the rac's or to the Wildlife Board you would have an answer to your question. Even if you went on the DWR site and red or listened to previous meetings. Lot more to it than just saying lets do it. The cost of doing it for one thing stops them. They would have to hire people to run it, advertising, etc. When it is done the way it is, were people are drawn to these banquets that have deep pockets, they make more money. Think of the RMEF with the members that they have and the drawing power they have. When they auction off one of these conservation tags, they have a big drawing card. Great for Utah.
Thanks stickfinder for coming up with the numbers. I only make the night auctions and some of those tags sold during the day.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-19-13 AT 08:09PM (MST)[p]Birdman--No reason for me to rip on you, although I think it would be fair for me to say that I think 13,000 is high if you can say you think it's low and are just guessing with no facts to back you up just like I am. Fair enough? I truly believe that you're an honest guy that's doing much more than most to help our wildlife, but I also think you are more than naive and gullible in some of your thinking. Be well Bro!
 
"I see what you wrote but I also see that you have no idea how the program works"

Birdman, does a person wishing to apply for the tags at the expo not have to show up in person to validate their license? Which part am I off about?

If the process has changed I will stand corrected. If not, please try to explain this dumb rule. Seems to me it just adds to the illusion of expo interest.

Also, since you are an insider, please explain the tag marketing program if you know it.
 
I've seen the claim of 13,000 members on their website. Nothing about how many last year, or the year before that. So if they are "growing" or shrinking, there is no data to support it. No break down of members of various state chapters, etc.
I know Bob Wharf claimed he had 8,000 "contacts" in his database, but that is far, far different than members.

Hell, there was a time I WAS a member. For all I know they still count me! Despite all of the claims, nowhere on the website does it list members of SFW-AK, SFW-WY, SFW-UT, etc.
Perhaps I've missed it and it is there somewhere. I am willing to be wrong if someone can show us the link.

I'll stand by my statement that if the numbers were truly growing, even with the freebees, SFW would be trumpeting it from the heights. Even if we are to believe the 13K overall number, that is a long way from even representing the interests of UT hunters, let alone those in other western states.
Bill
 
wow same old crap just another day.
The DWR just went thru the RACs aking for permission to kill how many thousands head of cow elk and you guys complain about the conservation tags and expo tags again. you're beating that horse to death and other than give the tags back to the average guy you have no answers for what is going on.
BLM and Forest Service bioligists have said because of the habitat rehabed in the last 15 years Utah can easily support 20,000 more elk. That habitat is a direct result from conservation tags. If you spent as much time writing county commisioners, DWR, Forest Service,BLM,RAC and Board members maybe we could get the herd objectives raised and have MORE tags for everyone. SFW got the objective up 1850 elk last year with no help from any other group, not close to what it should be. If you want to see more elk in Utah you need to change from attacking the best tool to get the habitat for them and start working on the grazers and ranchers thats the biggest roadblock. If you want to really help the"average hunter" would it be better to have 20,000 more elk in the state or the conservation tags back in the draw? We can't have both unless someone finds a way to replace that money. If the habitat work stops there is no way the DWR is going to be able to increase herds and keep them up.
 
30plus


Is SFW against grazers,ranchers,and cattlemen? Are they percieved as a road block by you personally or the org. as a whole? Just curious and not trying to take sides.
 
Topgun, I know we are never going to agree on the numbers. I know what I believe and what I see. That is fine. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Javihammer, You are right that a person has to show up at the expo to put in for the draw. He does not have to pay and go in but must show up at the lobby. That was a state rule put in place to draw people to Salt Lake. True SFW was the one that proposed it but the State set the rules. That being the Legislators. It is to help with the economy. Not sure what you mean by the tag marketing. Are you talking the conservation tags?
llamapacker, I know that it does not break down state by state. I do not see how that matters. If you do not accept it then that is fine. That is just the way it is. The reason I think that there is more because the web has not been updated recently. Banquets are still going on and lots of things to do to get ready for everything. Membership grows with the banquets.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Apr-19-13
>AT 10:34?AM (MST)
>
>llamapacker---I just found where they are
>claiming 13,000 members spread throughout
>all 50 states on their
>website. Bob Wharff,
>Executive Dir. of the Wyoming
>Chapter, claimed there are 8,000
>members in Wyoming that he
>speaks for during testimony before
>a Legislative Committee and in
>a recent PM to me.
> Draw your own
>conclusions about the actual numbers,
>but I find it hard
>to believe if there are
>13,000 that Wyoming has 8,000
>of them! Anyway, the
>13,000 is there in black
>and white and if that's
>their total membership in all
>the states the number is
>squat in the total picture.
> Here is the C/P
>off the website:
>
>About SFW
>SFW is a team of 13,000
>members spread throughout all 50
>states. We are intensely dedicated
>to the perpetuation of wildlife,
>and we're passionate about hunting.
>Our membership is a collection
>of sportsmen and women including
>everything from average hunters and
>influential celebrities, to wildlife experts,
>firearm and ammunition manufacturers, taxidermists,
>guides and outfitters. We all
>work together to create a
>future for wildlife and for
>hunters.

topgun

how many beside you and zim in the sfw hate club ? you get to 100
and i will join! and all you will have to do is show me what you have done for any wildlife !
 
Birdman,
Glad to see you admit there are no numbers on the website for each state SFW, or even historical numbers to show trends. That is all I have been saying since the beginning, when you so loudly proclaimed it was all there for anyone to see. Not so.

If you want to proclaim growth, then you have to show old numbers then new numbers. It isn't really very hard. Of course some people will renew at the expo, or at the banquets. You may even get some new members. But if the number failing to renew and dropping out is even greater, then you don't have growth.

For the last time, if there was really all this growth, SFW would be bragging about it with data, not some vague response about getting renewals at the banquets.

I don't fault anyone for wanting to get involved and support wildlife. It is when they find out the real SFW story that members drop like flies. And the result is NOT growth.
Bill
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-20-13 AT 07:35AM (MST)[p]topgun
>
>how many beside you and zim
>in the sfw hate club
>? you get to 100
>
>and i will join! and all
>you will have to do
>is show me what you
>have done for any wildlife

***You're talkin out your azz again dog, as you have no friggin idea how many organizations I belong to throughout the country, how much I donate in $ and man hours, etc. If you don't think there are many thousands that want to send the top dogs in SFW packing, you haven't been paying much attention to what is happening the last couple years. Just the members on this site that don't like the SFW and it's methods easily exceeds 100, but who;s counting, LOL! Tossing their sorry azz out of AZ along with their female lobbist when they tried that tag grab is just one big thing that comes to mind that took many thousands of us working against them and their agenda! There are a number of others that I don't care to waste my time on after reading your BS post, so adios!!!
 
Bird,
And there is a reason the state by state breakdown matters. When a state SFW board member, lets say SFW-ID just as an example, goes to a legislator and says "I represnet hunters in this state, and we currently have 13K members" it sounds impressive. The legislator who really knows nothing about SFW or even wildlife management in the state can be pursuaded to listen.

But the reality is far different. I don't know how many members are in SFW-ID, nobody will tell us, but it is obvious this is one of the small SFW groups. Out of the overall 13K total across the country, it would be very surprising if SFW-ID even had 1,000 members, more likely 500 or so. Try telling the same legislator you represent a few hundred sportsmen and see if you get the same response. This is the real heart of the matter. SFW won't release the numbers, because at least in a number of its state organizations, membership is very low. And as a result, they do NOT represent the views of anywhere near a majority of hunters, and it can fairly be stated they represent the views of a select minority, special interest group of sportsmen in that state. They are trying to willfully deceive legislators and DOW officials by proclaiming this 13K membership number, when those members are really in another state. This is not transparency, or even honesty, but it does make for good politicing until you get caught at it.
Bill
 
You are right llamapacker numbers do matter. I have seen what I have seen and I know that the numbers are going up. More new members and a large retention. You do not have to believe it if you do not want to. I do. I see it. I am not here to prove anything to you. Just tell you what I know. Sorry that you are so bitter about SFW. Lots are not. Wish you luck in your draws and hunting this fall.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-20-13 AT 09:08AM (MST)[p]Birdman---Your last post is a typical example of your poor attempts to placate people on this site that disagree with the principles and philosophy of your group. You come on and dispute what other people say about SFW and yet all you can do is say to trust you because you know we are wrong. You never seem to have even a single fact to win an ongoing discussion and now it's a very simple one on membership numbers. When will you figure out that the comments you post are exactly what is causing your organization a big percentage of it's problems? You want people to believe and trust you with no foundation or facts to back yourself up and now it's even showing in a simple discussion of how many members there are. Can't you see that if they aren't even forthcoming with these numbers that they are really behind the eight ball when they can't answer any of the even more important things like how much money is coming in and where it is all going? Looking at their few tax statements alone shows a number of lines that total over one million dollars each year that is not actually accounted for. I have honestly never seen any type of an organization that is so shady in all it's dealing with the public and to think it's under the 501C(3) umbrella is even more of a travesty IMHO!!!
 
Topgun, I am not trying to prove anything. Just making a statement. You do not have to believe it. Your right. I was raised to understand people. I know the leaders of SFW personally. To me they are as honest as can be. You do not have to believe it. I know you don't. They have become true friends. Now what I see and what I hear I have to decipher for myself. I believe everything is on the up and up. Nothing to prove but trust and my judgment. You keep saying prove this and prove that. I can not prove and have no desire to. It is knowledge in my head. You seem to know how SFW can improve on image. Kind of reminds me of the Democrats telling the Republicans how they can be successful. Do they want Republicans to be successful? SFW is successful. I do not see anything right now or plans in the future that will take them down. Rules are made and they follow them. Nothing to prove, just the knowledge and understanding that I have. No one is wanting you or others to join or believe unless you really want to. Not here to argue. You ask a question and I give you an answer of what I know. What I say I believe to be true. You do not like it fine. Blast away.
 
13,000 members in all states?

There ya go Muley 73. I would love to hear you dance around these numbers now they are out in the open. So let's hear how wrong and uninformed I am after once again stating that I think it's absolutely wrong that SFW can influence wildlife policies in my home state of Utah to such a high degree while only representing under 10% of the the sportsman throughout the entire state? How many times have you asked me how I knew that the masses where not represented by this group? Well there ya go and it's even less than I thought it was.
 
Hey guys what big game conservation organization is the one that everyone is behind? Which one has tens of thousands of members and does represent the majority of the states big game hunters?
 
30 plus I think your on the wrong website, this is monster MULEYS not elk. What have all these conservation tags done for our deer herds?? We need 20K more elk? Well I guess we do, they sale for more dont they??
 
Deerlove---I wondered about that post of his too.

Tri--I would say the RMEF since it has a biggest membership base dealing with big game animals. The only other big national group would be the NWTF and it's main goal is the wild turkey and habitat that favors it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-20-13 AT 07:28PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-20-13 AT 07:27?PM (MST)

>30 plus I think your on
>the wrong website, this is
>monster MULEYS not elk.
>What have all these conservation
>tags done for our deer
>herds?? We need 20K
>more elk? Well I
>guess we do, they sale
>for more dont they??


Really guys last I checked there are forums for about every big game animal in north america on this site. Why is there an elk forum on mm if this site is all about mule deer? The general hunting forum means just that.
 
Okay, so they have a CRAP LOAD of landowner tags. That's fine and dandy. But I feel that they should only be able to hunt those elk on THAT LAND. I can't hunt my LE elk draw tag on their property, so why can they hunt the landowner tag on public?
 
>LAST EDITED ON Apr-20-13
>AT 07:35?AM (MST)
>
>topgun
>>
>>how many beside you and zim
>>in the sfw hate club
>>? you get to 100
>>
>>and i will join! and all
>>you will have to do
>>is show me what you
>>have done for any wildlife
>
>***You're talkin out your azz again
>dog, as you have no
>friggin idea how many organizations
>I belong to throughout the
>country, how much I donate
>in $ and man hours,
>etc. If you don't
>think there are many thousands
>that want to send the
>top dogs in SFW packing,
>you haven't been paying much
>attention to what is happening
>the last couple years.
>Just the members on this
>site that don't like the
>SFW and it's methods easily
>exceeds 100, but who;s counting,
>LOL! Tossing their sorry
>azz out of AZ along
>with their female lobbist when
>they tried that tag grab
>is just one big thing
>that comes to mind that
>took many thousands of us
>working against them and their
>agenda! There are a
>number of others that I
>don't care to waste my
>time on after reading your
>BS post, so adios!!!

top


i really don't care how many orgs you belong to or how much you spend ! you whine and cry about what others have and you don't so i just figured you were just a little welfare baby ! had no idea you were such a big deal. i hope you will accept my sincere apology!if not adios cryguy!
 
I have followed the posts about S.F.W. the last couple of years,and have not really paid that much attention as it seemed to pertain to Utah and Wyoming. But now it seems that this so called " Sportsmans Organization" of the well healed, are trying to make inroads in Idaho. I have a friend who is employed by the IF&G,and was talking to him the other night about last years hunting season, and the topic came up about about this group, and he told me that they were instrumental about getting a lady nominee for the F&G commisson not being approved,and that this lady was qualified,but that she was not in favor of this groups agenda. My friend said these guys are trying to get a foot hold in Idaho,and are lobbying to get a point system,and a auction system like Utah! Sounds like the Idaho hunters need to take this to heart,and be vigilant and pay more attention as to what is going on when these little groups show up and want to have a " FUND RAISER FOR THE GOOD OF WILDLFE"!!
 
brdhuntr---FYI they have also set up camp in Montana and are trying to make the same kind of inroads there too. They are being fought tooth and nail there after everyone has seen how things are going in Utah and then how they tried that tag grab in AZ that everyone got together and put a stop to. They only have a good foothold in Utah right now and it needs to stay that way. It's a shame, but that's the way it is when greed and money take over.
 
Birdman

I who was running the MDF during the convention tag process helped HAND PICK the permits to be given through the hunt expo drawing. I helped make all the rules and regulations for the permits.

We added Turkey and Bear and Lion etc. just to have more permits. They were an afterthought.

Also the acting DWR director at the time who oversaw the process is now the MDF president. Think about that for a minute.

You need to get your facts straight and quit defending stuff you know nothing about.



Tony Abbott
 
Fishon, You are an interesting person. I know about all of that. I also know that the tags that are there now are picked by the DWR and not the organizations. So maybe you need to get the facts straight and quit stating things you know nothing about.
 
"interesting person" and "facts straight"

Those are interesting comments. See unlike you mister birdman I CREATED the hunt expo and the expo tags along with Don and Ray.

You were nowhere around any of those meetings unless you were dressed up like a DWR conservation officer.

I helped write the rule for the expo tags and helped modify it.

I dont speak 3rd or 4th hand info like you do. I speak from being there when it was all dreamed up and created.

I said nothing about tags now I ONLY said how it was created.

See there is a big difference between you and I. I dont need to hear or read or assume about how this expo came about. I was one of 3 that created it.

You and your act are tired. DO not speak to me unless you speak truth and have something to add to the conversation. No one on this site spews more than you do and no one knows less.

You for whatever reason feel like you are a great source of factual info when in reality all you do is say what you have HEARD and believe to be true.

Go fly away Birdman before you get your wings clipped.

Tony Abbott
 
Fishon---The next thing he's going to come on and tell us like he just did in a PM to me is that the group that bit the dust on the AZ tag grab didn't have anything to do with the UTSFW organization. His proof is that they weren't showing on the organizational map as a Chapter! He's a nice guy as I've said before, but he's so gullible and naive it's a real shame. It's really like he's a puppet and DP is pulling his strings every time he posts.
 
>I have followed the posts
>about S.F.W. the last couple
>of years,and have not really
>paid that much attention as
>it seemed to pertain to
>Utah and Wyoming. But now
>it seems that this so
>called " Sportsmans Organization" of
>the well healed, are trying
>to make inroads in Idaho.
>I have a friend who
>is employed by the
>IF&G,and was talking to him
>the other night about last
>years hunting season, and the
>topic came up about about
>this group, and he told
>me that they were instrumental
>about getting a lady nominee
>for the F&G commisson not
>being approved,and that this lady
>was qualified,but that she was
>not in favor of this
>groups agenda. My friend said
>these guys are trying to
>get a foot hold in
>Idaho,and are lobbying to get
>a point system,and a auction
>system like Utah! Sounds like
>the Idaho hunters need to
>take this to heart,and be
>vigilant and pay more attention
>as to what is going
>on when these little groups
>show up and want to
>have a " FUND RAISER
>FOR THE GOOD OF WILDLFE"!!
>
One other thing that might have some bearing as to whether this group gets a toe hold in Idaho, is the lady that they got repealled from a nominee to the F&G COMMISION, was picked by the governor. And there is one thing you don't want to do is piss off old BUTCHY!!
 
brdhuntr---Others may want to know the full scoop on that. Senator Siddoway, a bigshot sheep rancher who owns over 400,000 acres and is also a SFW proponent, led the charge against her appointment. There was apparently a SFW candidate for the position that the Governor overlooked in his pick of Joan Hurlock for the spot. Her name was sent to the legislature with a 5-4 vote to not recommend her for the position and word is that two SFW Idaho Board Members actually spoke against her at the Committee meeting that resulted in that vote. She then lost appointment to the position in the full Senate vote. This is exactly what probably happened a decade ago when SFW was able to get people in key positions in Utah and we now see what has happened there and who controls game management in that state.
 
My friend from F&G said the exact same thing. And it makes since that Siddoway, would stand in the way of her confirmation as he is a very large land owner in the eastern part of the state,and would benefit from evently getting an appointee from SFW.on the board. I will be scrutinizing this to keep it above the radar!
Sounds like Idaho is next in line to be SFW IZED!!
 
You know Fishon, You were there at the organization of the expo and I will not dispute that. I am not speaking as you put it third or forth hand. Things that I know about and are taking place now. Yes I am in those meetings and listen. I guess the way that you set it up originally has been changed. Maybe made better. What I am saying is that it has changed since you created it.
I guess the difference between you and me is that you are speaking about what happened in the past, and I am speaking about the way things are done now. Yes I am speaking first hand and attended the meeting where it all was revealed. Did not see you there. You can hoop and holler all that you want. The past is gone and now is now. Things have changed since you left. I learn things first hand. You can scream all you want. You can say all you want. You once told Troy in this site that you could take down SFW. He told you to do so if you could. You can not. You know you can not.
Topgun, Yes the message I sent you in the pm was the truth. You will not research it for fear you will find you are wrong. But then you are.
 
Birdman, I have no dog in this fight. Guess you could say I am part of the masses watching to see how things end up in this debate. However, I will say this......your comments about 'change' & how things "now" are moving in a positive direction sure sounds like a lot of things coming out of the White House these days.

So tired of all the BS being spewed on this site. So, for all of guys "not in the know" like me, please speak with facts....that goes for boths sides of the debate.

Lastly, lots of guys here saying all these tags currently set aside are needed to help mule deer......the old way of tag management is costing us our herds.

My question to you.....these tags have been around for a "generation" or two of current mule deer herds....just how much have they really done to help?? As someone wanting to hear both sides, please respond with facts (both sides) because I am having a hard time understanding finger pointing.

If you can keep it "black & white", we all may learn some things, now won't we.

Carry on!
 
ASB---If we could ever get any "facts" out of Birdman or the SFW hierarchy, there would be no need for more debates like this on any Forums! It's always "trust us" or "I know" even now when all we asked for is the true count of it's membership. The main site says 13,000 members and yet even an Executive Director of one State chapter says that is not correct and then says we shouldn't have tat information anyway because it could be used against them!!!
 
Please forgive my ignorance but does anyone know the special secret formula for coming up with an accurate and unique fair market value for each of these very special tags? Did these tags have a reserve? I would like to know using sticksenders list as the example. I was under the impression the auctioning organization needed to collect and remit the taxable portion of the fair market value to the IRS.

Common sense would follow that the cost of the tag through the public drawing has nothing to do with the fair market value of a primo hand selected auction tag (it doesnt reflect actual demand and the TIME cost public hunters have surrendered to make that tag available for the auction).

The point of my question is to better understand the value proposition of these tags. If you factor in the big potential tax writeoff for the auction winner (tax writeoff is a loss to the public), the 10% collected by the non-profit auctioning org for "marketing", and any other portion (say 30%)of the funds retained by the auctioning org for pet projects that were "approved by the board".

How much is actually left to benefit publicly owned wildlife? How much should be left in order to justify the absolute fact that some guys will die or be phycically incapable using such a tag in the public draw as each incremental public draw tag moves from the public lottery to the auction stage?

There are many dozens of public draw hunters that have purchased licenses, submitted tag fees, and deferred opportunity over many years for each of these lost public tags (while the value of their small federally matched contributions grow ever larger over time in DWR investment accounts). I can never remember a time when any game department was so flush with money that they handed out cash and drove pristine trucks. The suggestion that it is okay to allow a non-profit group to act as a pawn shop for the DWR to generate cash from high-demand public assets just doesnt hold water. At what point will the DWR have enough money?

There is no way in hell 13,000 hunters anywhere support this, if so, they are "uninformed" as the birdman would say.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-21-13 AT 10:00PM (MST)[p]Let me translate what birdy says so all of you can understand it like I do.

ME: Birdy I helped create the expo.
Birdy: BLAH BLAH BLAH
ME: Birdy I was there at the beginning and am privy to all the facts.
Birdy: BLAH BLAH BLAH
ME: Birdy You hear things 3rd and 4th hand
Birdy: BLAH BLAH BLAH
ME: OK Birdy that made perfect sense what you just said, you are all knowing and privy to all things that happen and they would never say one thing yet do another behind closed doors.
Birdy: BLAH BLAH BLAH.
ME: If what I have always said was false and lies your boys would of sued me a long long time ago. Think about that Birdy.
Birdy: BLAH BLAH BLAH.
ME: Birdy I will give you $1,000,000 to admit you have no clue what has happened and happens with Utahs wildlife
Birdy: BLAH BLAH BLAH.
ME: Birdy Have a great day
Birdy: BLAH BLAH BLAH


Tony Abbott
 
ABS, I did not say that things are moving in a positive direction though I think things are going better. I did say that things have changed from when they were originally set up. The change from then to now is suppose to make things better. The change was done by the DWR. How much the tag money has done to help the deer herds is really not known. We know that the deer have gone down hill. Lots of reasons for that. Traffic, so high fences and overpasses have been put in. Signs up along highways. Much more habitat has been established, but the deer herds dropped. According to the DWR the deer herd leveled off this year as Anise said in the central rac and maybe improved a little in numbers. All this with a whole lot more deer killed on the hunt this past year. The coyote situation is being worked on. Any ideas would help but as of right now, it is still a mystery as to what to do to build the deer herd. Try this and try that. I will not say that there is a magical fix but if there is no one has found it yet. Just a matter of keep trying things.
javihammer, The tags have a market value set by the DWR. Each tag varies. When someone buys one of these tags, everything over the value of the tag, the cost you would have if drawing that tag, is tax deductible. If the tag looses money for what the organization bids for the tag, the organization looses that. The organization auctions off the tag, 10% is paid to the organization, Out of that 10% all costs are paid including the auctioneer. 30% goes straight to the DWR. The remaining 60% goes into a fund to be spent on the species the tag was sold for.
Topgun, As of late, I have not put anything on here that I did not know first hand. I told you the numbers that I had and what I thought. People have ask for names of the members so that they could have proof. I gave you what I had and what I knew. You want to blast me then do so but then I do not know why I should answer questions if all I am going to do is get blasted. I have been honest with you. You try being honest with me.
 
"The tags have a market value set by the DWR. Each tag varies. When someone buys one of these tags, everything over the value of the tag, the cost you would have if drawing that tag, is tax deductible."

A question, Does the price at the auction include the tag or do you still have to pay DWR the normal elk tag price?

DZ
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-21-13 AT 11:32PM (MST)[p]

The price paid includes the tag I think. I will have to check to make sure.
 
"The suggestion that it is okay to allow a non-profit group to act as a pawn shop for the DWR to generate cash from high-demand public assets just doesnt hold water. At what point will the DWR have enough money?"


Javihammer,
The DWR will never have enough money. Because while they sell a couple hundred tags for what seem to be over inflated values they sell sell another 80,000 at undervalued rates. It is a recipe for disaster for state wildlife agencies, big game species, AND ALL HUNTERS.
 
Birdman,
In post #25 in this read, you call me out and claim that membership numbers are posted on the SFW website, and demonstrate growth. By post #68 you have acknowledged that these numbers do not exist on the website, and have reverted to the "trust me" line, with no data to support your position.
This is a trend throughout many of your posts. You like to claim insider knowledge and even detailed knowledge, but when pushed for data, numbers, or some factual basis, you always revert to "trust me, I am in the know".

I do NOT know SFW membership numbers. I've seen the claim online of 13,000 members across the US and all chapters. Another SFW booster used to claim over 20,000 members. I do not know if his claim was true or not. If the number has dropped from 20K+ to 13K, well, that isn't growth. If the number went up from 10K last year to 13K this year, I would be impressed by that level of growth. Having been in existence for quite a few years now, it seems hard to believe that SFW is "growing quickly" to 13,000 members. If true, how many did they have in the early years?

This isn't about "hate", or some other diversion you use when you don't have the facts. I also know a couple members of the SFW leadership and personally respect and consider them to be quality people. This doesn't excuse the silence and lack of transparency with the ORGANIZATION, however. I can believe that some of the people involved with SFW (maybe even you???) have nothing but the best of intentions, but this doesn't mean I will give the group a free pass. Groups, companies, churches etc., can be made up of mostly very good, well intentioned people, and sometimes the group still goes off the rails, and sometimes a bad apple steers the group down a path that is unhealthy for the long term viability of the group. It pays to be vigilant. It also is very telling when a group refuses to post seemingly benign data, and continues to hide in the shadows.

Use your influence (?) within SFW and insider knowledge to provide some real data and hard facts. Hiding simple membership data is just the tip of the iceberg.
Bill
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-13 AT 11:21AM (MST)[p]Birdman---Please go back and read your responses to me. You gave no number anywhere. All you said is YOU THINK THIS and YOU THINK THAT. Bob came on and essentially stated that 13,000 was not the correct number and intimated it was high from what I can gather from his post. It appears he is even arguing what he stated the WY numbers are when he said it was 8,000 when asked by a State Legislator at a Committee hearing and what I then stated he sent me in a PM. Can you not see why most of us shake our heads and wonder if we will ever get any truthful answers about anything involving SFW? I wish you would look into the statements you've made about the tag values and being able to declare a full tax deduction on the difference the tag costs and the price paid for it at auction. Are you sure of that, as I'm no tax expert, but I think your answer may be incorrect.
 
Good at twisting things around. What I said Llamapacker was on the web sight there is a number posted for membership. I also said that it is not broken down state by state. I also said that there are banquets going on and until the banquets are done numbers will still be added. I know that membership has continued to grow. I know we have more first time members than ever before. Do not trust me on this if you want. You ask and I told you what I knew. You do not have to believe me. Don't care. Matters not to me. Matters not to SFW. They will continue to grow weather you do or do not.
Topgun, I do not know what Bob says. I don't care. I know what I know. I have told you all along what I know. You on the other hand have blasted me with what other people have said. Most of those people do not know what is going on but assume. Just like you do. Assume all that you want. I really could care less. I know what I am doing and I also TRUST the head of SFW. They are great people and great friends. I really could gave a rats butt what you think when it comes to SFW.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-13 AT 12:35PM (MST)[p]So I choose to use the example of increasing elk and get put down for it.
SFW is working on multiple fronts to increase game from sage grouse to bison and you guys know it. All that habitat that has been done will benefit mule deer more than any other game animal. It's to bad you guys couldn't spend all this time asking our biologists why mule deer are not coming back. SFW has supported the dwr with everything they have tried found them money for studies etc. we are told there are many reasons and no one knows for sure. I myself think we do. The books, henries, and Vernon were all closed because of extremely low deer numbers. Over the next few years predators on all three units were hammered cougars, and coyotes, plus many habitat projects were completed. Those herds responded and grew for many years till they all stopped increasing. The increases all slowed as predators were no longer killed to the same extent. those units are all still strong but none are at objective. The Henries is close and has had two good fawn crops but it has also seen a lot of coyotes and cougar removed the last two years. Do you guys know there was a deal reached to increase San Jaun elk by 1000 about 7-8 years ago? But was shot down because a few thought it gave to much of the public elk to grazers and landowners. How many more tags would we the average hunter had to draw from down there? But alas we can't have anyone who has an interest on the lands benefit from or get reimbursed for saying yes let's have more elk it might hurt my operation so let us sell a few more tags. No lets just ##### and moan and fight over what is left and leave little for the next generation.
 

Similar threads

N
Understanding E-plus
Replies
2
Views
240
toklat
toklat
ACWKS
Kansas Whitetail Archery Hunts
Replies
0
Views
472
ACWKS
ACWKS
Founder
Trophy Whitetail Hunts in Kansas and Indiana
Replies
0
Views
661
Founder
Founder

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos

Member Gallery Photos and Videos!

Mega Bull!!
D70C15F9-FB64-44D7-83BD-D5462AB38B18.png
20210930_180557 (2).jpg
7CA74ED9-4EC6-4208-B033-32FFB56BB74D.jpeg
Big Buck Down
9461F8D3-E7E6-472F-8ADA-0042F8CAB95A.jpeg
IMG_8654.jpeg
IMG_20201017_115024112.jpg
20220415_180350.jpg
632ED05F-BF1E-4BDA-9273-AE2ACDBFA34E.jpeg
IMG_4242.jpeg
IMG_2058.jpeg
Back
Top Bottom