Idaho fish and game

B

Bbd06

Guest
Any body else think Idaho fish and game doesnt manage our mule deer herds and our elk herds worth a crap...
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-08-09 AT 06:52PM (MST)[p]To be fair they kinda have their hands tied in some areas. The majority of the state has spoken that they'd rather have the opportunity to hunt every year than every other year killing a good buck. Until the hunters of the state decide that they might be willing to sacrifice a little bit of opportunity in order to get a little better quality deer herds, it will probably continue to be managed for mass 2 point harvests.

"Sacifice a little bit of opportunity" doesn't have to mean that you can't hunt every year. It could just mean short range weapons and no 500 yard rifles. I know it takes a lot of skill to kill something at 500 yards but IMO if you can't get closer than that you need to work on you hunting skills more than shooting skills.

BUT..... They could do a better job in some areas:

-More predator control (however possible just kill more)

-More atv restrictions during the seasons. Let people earn their kills. Open roads back up after the seasons to help people get access to kill more predators.

-limit non-res tags (extra tags). I think the F&G did a good job on that this year by raising the rates. Less people bought those tags this year...Awesome.

That all for now, I'm sure I've said plenty that people will disagree with.
 
I agree with you more atv restrictions.And kill more predators. I would be more than willing to hunt every other year or whatever it needed to be to get the big bucks back in our state. I think fish and game need to change or we are not going to have any deer left in our state in the next ten years..
 
They do not manage Predators well at all. There are plenty of predators that are getting killed every year . Look back at the banner years there were more predators then pluss more numbers. It is getting pretty hard to find tracks in most area that are runnable . I fact I will challenge any local Idaho Falls Pocatello area resident that is they want to " do their part call me and we will go put some miles on and run you a lion.
Fair warning I have done this before and went where the lions were " everywhere"so I was told and after almost 350 miles no tracks .
So any takers and If we go and do not find a track you have to buy my dinner. :)
 
They need the tag sales to stay afloat. The IFG is one of the only game dept in the country that doesn't get any money from state funds. So untill they can get money from some place else too, they need to sale as much as they can. Or every one can start paying twice or three times as much. How many res. does it take to make up for one nonres.?? Can your company make it if the big contracts go somewhere else? NO, you need then to raise the prices on your small contracts, thats business, and thats what they are.
 
Your right they are a business but they need to do there job(MANAGE OUR HERDS). Its scary to think if they keep managing how they are our mule deer witch used to be one of the best in the nation will be gone. If we need to raise the prices on tags so be it. They need to look at our serounding states and follow their programs or Idaho hunting will be done......
 
After reading Grizzly's post in the general forum, I might have to retract my thoughts on limiting non-resident tags.

I did not realize that non-resident dollars account for 70% of the F&G revenue. I guess the drop in non-res tag sales could get rather expensive for use residents.
 
IDF&G Doesn't manage one damn thing right, It ain't just big game.
The bird hunting in this state has got to be the worst of all the western states.
Yesterday i was on a mission to find some new bird hunting spots, As i have done many times in the past. I was up and on the road before sunrise and headed towards Gooding, Bliss and King hill,, I stopped to talk to a few farmers and dairy's about hunting their land.. I'm talking about huge corn fields surrounded by Alfalfa and sage brushy ditches with year round running water. Almost every one of them laughed and said go ahead but i haven't seen more than one or two pheasants in years. Well it looked like great habitat so i think there has to be a few birds around. My Shorthair and i walk miles of field edges ditches and tree lines, Nothing Nada, Not one bird track, no dropping's not a single feather found..But the ol dog did make some fine points on some mice. After 6 hours of that i decide to head down to the river and try and hook up on some Quail and Huns, Years ago this area was full of birds, and not one damn thing as far as habitat has changed there for 20 years.
I busted my ass up and down the river till dark, Same results absolutely zero sign of any game birds.
I have talked to the local F&G Bio. several times and have asked him what has happened to all the birds.
All i get is the same ol song and dance, Loss of habitat,Farmers have changed the way they farm, If it is good habitat the birds will be there..B.S...... I have hunted the same country in the Owyhee's for 30 years, Not one damn thing has changed there, Except that there ain't no birds anymore.
I have one spot that i go to that always coughs up some Quail, Chukar, and an occasional Pheasant and Hun year after year..This place gets fairly heavy hunting pressure, The land owner doesn't want anybody shooting Coyotes or Fox's,, There is just as many Hawks and other birds of prey flying around there.So i know that birds can and will survive in good numbers.
I have heard every excuse in the book on why we can't get birds to survive in Idaho, But i have not heard one single positive word on how we can get the numbers back up.
I have volunteered my time, I have offered the material and time to build guzzlers, I and many others are willing to do what ever it takes to get the job done..
BUT IDAHO FISH AND GAME IS ""NOT"" A CAN DO DEPT. It is much easier to just make up excuses and not get their hands dirty..
I have much more to ##### about but gotta get to work,So i am going to chime in again a little later..
 
i think they need to manage game and quit managing people. they try to hard to make people happy today, when if they would manage for the game everyone would be happy in a few years. $$ might be tight for a few years but once you have the game the $$$ will follow. look at the NR deer tags this year. perfect example. most dont want to come here.

wolves are a problem but not the only problem. we could make it better for sure.

Travis
www.RidgelineOutdoors.com
Blacks-Creek Packs Dealer
 
Wow, talk about beating a dead horse...
I agree with Orion23, they need to stop doing what joe shmoe wants and do whats right for the game.
 
Just think of the money the department could make in a couple years of managing the herds. We have the genetics and habitat to grow great animals. We just need a few years of good management and nonres will be flocking in to have a opportunity at them(and be happy to pay for the high priced tags). Not only that, our kids will have a chance! Do you think colorado had over 3000 deer tags left to offer!! No because they manage there herds!!


ridgeline outdoors prostaff
blacks creek guide gear prostaff
 
Thats funny muley maiden, funny. I agree with Bucksbullsandbroncs, and Orion23 with that they need to do whats best for the game! Thats what the freak they are paid to do, yes Jp Smoe needs to be happy thats part of the buisness, but this is one of the worst ran buisnesses that I know of. One opinion I have which I know is and would be hard to follow is not going up and picking up sheds till a certain date. I know what about the dishonest guys, well if the honest guys turned in the other ones then eventually it would stop them. I think may 1st is too long in most places, but i believe this kills deer every year and think thatwe would be suprised to know how many. Just a thought, i also believe predator control would be a huge one, if we all took out a couple of yotes and a cougar if we could.
 
Maybe they should give an extra general season deer tag to anyone that proves and kills 15 coyotes. J/K.

There should be a bounty on these tho. even if its only a few dollars a paw. helps with the fuel.

Travis
www.RidgelineOutdoors.com
Blacks-Creek Packs Dealer
 
I believe the dept. is in for a major shake down. With the loss of revenue from non resident and resident hunters, job positions are going to be on the chopping block. No more new trucks and equipment. Maybe if they get rid of the over schooled idiots, and get a normal person to take the place of four, then maybe things will get back on track. my2cents
 
I agree Idaho fish and game is the worst ran businesses I know of. If these idiots would just run their program like one of our surounding states the herds would bounce back and their money would follow. I cant believe these clowns running fish and game are the future of Idaho hunting. WHAT CAN WE DO AS HUNTERS TO STOP THESE GUYS..
 
I don't know exactly what to do but we need to show them that we are not happy, Hold meetings and discuss things,most of all we need to kill coyotes and cats, do our own part to show them we care. We need to write letters to state reps and Fish and game. Just some thoughts but I'm beggining to think that the IDFG is being ran like our current national government, just out for the money and there own comfort.Not really listening to the people they work for or managing what they are put in charge of. My 2 cents
 
If you guys are really serious about making a difference, the first thing I would suggest you do is go down to the local library and read a book on wildlife management. When you are finished with that one, try some ecology, political science, socialogy, and economics. By then you might know what the heck you are talking about.
Volunteer some time and money to make a difference. There are organizations all over the country including your own G and F Department that are understaffed and underfunded that could use your help. Building better wildlife populations isn't free and complaining about it on some internet chat forum isn't part of the solution.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-14-09 AT 06:05PM (MST)[p]>If you guys are really serious
>about making a difference, the
>first thing I would suggest
>you do is go down
>to the local library and
>read a book on wildlife
>management. When you are
>finished with that one, try
>some ecology, political science, socialogy,
>and economics. By then
>you might know what the
>heck you are talking about.
>
>Volunteer some time and money to
>make a difference. There
>are organizations all over the
>country including your own G
>and F Department that are
>understaffed and underfunded that could
>use your help. Building
>better wildlife populations isn't free
>and complaining about it on
>some internet chat forum isn't
>part of the solution.

gee, thanks, that clears things up! i swore all i needed to do is complain right here and all my problems would be solved. I owe you 1.


Travis
www.RidgelineOutdoors.com
Blacks-Creek Packs Dealer
 
Well your way with all the collage education has been tried and as far as the PAYING public is concerned they don't like it.
Why can't we be looked at as customers? If we were looked at as customers shouldn't the customer be right?
To be honest everything you are talking about could be done by everyone in this forum and it would still not change the fact that we have poor game numbers across the board and people are not buying tags. Reading books about biology and the rest will not sell hunting licenses and tags. The number of GAME ANIMALS is what sells licenses and tags.

At a store if you complain that the store doesn't have something you and EVERY one else that comes in the door wants, do you think that the store would make sure to stock that item? Do you think that the store would put less effort into items that are not selling and focus on the items that people really want.
At the store should you have to pay first and then look on the shelf to see if the item you want is in stock?
Yes a lot of us are complaining but in a lot of business the first thing that starts a change in the right direction is a complaint. With so many tags going unsold I would say that is a complaint or a million of them. People will speak with their dollars. The ?store? with the best VALUE, and the best ITEMS will get the money from the PAYING public.
Don?t look down on us for a lack of education. We are the ones that pay your wages. Belittling us won't help sell tags. Ron



>If you guys are really serious
>about making a difference, the
>first thing I would suggest
>you do is go down
>to the local library and
>read a book on wildlife
>management. When you are
>finished with that one, try
>some ecology, political science, socialogy,
>and economics. By then
>you might know what the
>heck you are talking about.
>
>Volunteer some time and money to
>make a difference. There
>are organizations all over the
>country including your own G
>and F Department that are
>understaffed and underfunded that could
>use your help. Building
>better wildlife populations isn't free
>and complaining about it on
>some internet chat forum isn't
>part of the solution.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-14-09 AT 07:55PM (MST)[p]Fishbio you might be right that being a little more educated could help, but we chose other paths in life. I'm assuming that you chose to be an F&G officer or something close to it. (correct me if I am wrong) But you chose to put up with us and right now job numbers will be cut soon because of lack of game so I don't think that repremanding us will help. Second this is a way of brainstorming like it or not, I have learned a lot on here from people and not so much from others. I think more people would be willing to help, but don't know where to start and I don't see the Fish and game asking for it any where really, they may offer it but when do they say hey we need help on this date who can help?
On another note...
By the way thanks for the reply, any books in particular that you recommend? I have read a few articles on the internet done by fish and game officers across the west, wrote non profit proposal to a large corporation which rewarded that state in the area wich they mined with two water guzzlers and thousands of bitterbrush seedlings to be planted on wintering grounds. I am trying to help where I can. I want to help more where I can, I believe I stated that I do not know everything or what needs to be done, just that what is being done now is not working as well as planned, at least at what i have seen. Where are you from I have taken all but two of the classes you reccommended and wil complete on this winter. Curious where socialogy comes into play? I would like to learn more, Pm me if you wish. Thanks
 
...yeah, something close to it, but I assure you I don't work for IDFG.
I am accused of belittling you, read the first 20 posts.
I'm off to ND to hunt pheasants for a week, have fun brainstorming.
 
Well Mr fishbio I am a native to this state and am watching it go to .... with people who have read all those great books that I have read myself. What fish and game is doing is wrong they are not managing our herds and if somthing does not change Idahos hunting for trophy animls will be gone . So dont tell us people who care about Idaho's future in big game that we dont know what we are talking about. Or I guess we can sit back and watch it go...
 
Fishbio. hmmmm. fish biologist? fish ...........and you dont work for f&g? If things had been managed from the beggining, you could hunt pheasants here in ID. Do you treat big game hunting the same way? What state? not ours. And to do our part, I pay a donation every year as do many others. Does that go to pay some high dollar biologists wage, or to aid in restoring habitat
 
>Does that go
>to pay some high dollar
>biologists wage, or to aid
>in restoring habitat


Really? Check the starting salary down at ID F&G lately? Most of 'em probably qualify for food stamps.

Don't know about the rest of the state, but in central Idaho, the wolves will put ID F&G out of business. Keep in mind, the feds are shoving that down everyone's throat with the wolf lovers behind them.

F&G depts are in the business of selling tags & licenses. When wolves eliminate the need for hunters, there will be no more business of selling tags.
 
Fish and game is in the business of regulating our herds! THAT is what they are supposed to be doing. yes, revenue partly does come from tag sales, but without game you cant sell tags. i understand that the wolf thing is out of their hands but there are other things they can do to help the herds become stronger.

Travis
www.RidgelineOutdoors.com
Blacks-Creek Packs Dealer
 
your right fullcurl. I got caught up in the moment and was a poor selection of words.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-17-09 AT 02:36PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-17-09 AT 02:33?PM (MST)

idahoan said: "I think more people would be willing to help, but don't know where to start and I don't see the Fish and game asking for it any where really, they may offer it but when do they say hey we need help on this date who can help?"

Visit http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/about/volunteer/ and take a look at the project list for your region. Call IDFG and ask to be put on the volunteer list, or fill out and mail the form on the page linked above. Contact names and numbers for each region are on the projects list pages.

I signed up years ago and get frequent updates via phone and email when projects are coming up. There are a lot of great projects and I have been able to do a lot of things most people never do.

Sagebrush seed collection season is starting in the SW region, if you want to help with that for habitat restoration efforts, the SW volunteer office is 327-7099.
 
You guys are a bunch of typcial WHINERS!

I have a very good friend who is a F&G Regional CO and I can tell you these guys focus on making things better for hunters in Idaho. You all make is sound like they have an agenda against you. Tell me what their motivation is to do that? They don't get paid on commission. What they are is extremely limited by a lack of resources. Because this state doesn't cater solely to the NR, which keeps their funds limited, they can't afford to buy their own helicopters and planes like Colorado. They have to rely on volunteers like myself and my son to help trap and tag deer for studies.

You all Bi#*ch about wanting to be treated like customers. but being selfish, what you don't consider is that you are NOT the only customers. The F&G goes out of their way to listen to the public and contrary to what you think, the GENERAL concensus and MAJORITY opinion among the hunting public is they want OPPORTUNITY first. Most Idaho hunters don't want to give up their ability to hunt for a buck every year. No matter what you say here I know you all wouldn't be willing to sit at home for 5 years to get the opportunity to shoot an older deer. The fact is you have an opportunity to kill a big buck EVERY year here.

I agree that since the huge winter kill in the early 90's the deer herds here have not recovered. No one seems ot know the answer. What I think based on my experience is that: 1) We have never let up enough through general hunting to let the age class of the deer get back up. 2) The amount of development on crucial wintering grounds has grown exponentially in the past 15 years 3) Competition from "GROWING" elk herds

Think about that last point. You can all whine all you want about our "disappearing" game, but you are freakin crazy if you want to argue that the elk herds have been decimated in the last 20 years, as they are no where near as low as they where then. Even with the dreaded wolf, that has only leveled their numbers statewide the past 5 or so years. Yes the wolves have had a major impact in certain areas and Yes the wolves need to be controlled as all predators do, but they have NOT reduced overall statewide elk numbers. I believe a lot of the complaints about missing elk is answered by the fact that due to the wolves the elk aren't found in open country any more and most aren't willing to head to the heavy timber pockets to find them.

DO NOT blame F&G for the states predator problems. As concerned sportsment you have all the tools you need at your disposal. The seasons on predators are as liberal here as in any other state. Why should fish and game pay to hire professionals to kill predators. Would you be willing to pay a few extra hundred bucks a year so F&G can better handle the predator problem or go kill some yourself. Hell, spin it any way you want, but IDAHO has successfully managed to get a WOlf season, something most whiners like yourselves said would never happen with all your SSS rhetoric. Wyoming F&G didn't manage this did they. Montana only has half the quota we do, though apparently their hunters are a lot better than ours as they have almost met theirs and we haven't even hit 50%, IN OUR FIRST YEAR WHEN THE WOLVES AREN"T EVEN AFRAID OF US YET. Yet I don't hear you WHINERS applauding the fact that F&G is going to extend that season so we can try and make a dent in the population.

Look, I get pissed at hearing all the whiners when I know how hard the men and ladies at fish and game work to try and make it better. If you asked most of the CO's and big game folks, they want to get the quality back up. If they weren't following the wants of the masses I think they would like to limit the take to try and get the age class older and the bucks bigger. That is the bottom line, if we let the bucks get older before we kill them they will be MUCH bigger. I, personally, am in favor of that as much as it would pain me not to have the opportunity every year to hunt AT ALL. You can't have it both ways as the numbers just don't work. Unless you think it is FAIR to have the minority opinion that Quality should come before Opportunity supercede the majority opinion that contradicts it, then the Fish and Games hands are tied as they are listening to their customers.

I apologize for the rant, I feel your pain in terms of wanting more quality myself, but I think you have to really think about what the day to day field workers at fish and game are doing. Go kill some predators as that is OUR job. Get on the volunteer list and come help wrestle some deer and elk this winter why the biologist do their studies. Lastly, and I mean this with all sincerity.......Quit WHining!
 
Even with the dreaded wolf, that has only leveled their numbers statewide the past 5 or so years.

where are you getting your numbers. Yes we have elk in the fields next to the highways. and yes there are elk in the steep breaks. But not in the numbers that we should have. Look at colorados numbers verses ours and we have more public land. yes the wolves have made a severe impact, as tag numbers, as too many seasons, as...........
The winters are mild, the grass is knee deep, so what is the culprit.
further more. we are not blameing the lower end of the totem pole at the F&G. This goes to the hand full of ppl at the top. The smaller ppl are not going to jeopardize their job for the sake of our wants or wishes. IMHO.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-22-09 AT 10:10AM (MST)[p]BPKhunter- Im not whining, im voicing IMO to the post. That is what forums do.

Also, i agree that F&G are doing their best to control the wolves with what they have to work with.

Also, you only helped prove my point more with what you said earlier which i think gives me the right to complain.

you said:

"the GENERAL concensus and MAJORITY opinion among the hunting public is they want OPPORTUNITY first. Most Idaho hunters don't want to give up their ability to hunt for a buck every year. No matter what you say here I know you all wouldn't be willing to sit at home for 5 years to get the opportunity to shoot an older deer. The fact is you have an opportunity to kill a big buck EVERY year here."

and this is my point exactly, that they manage people and not herds. If all we need to do is put out a survey to figure out the seasons they may as well lay off employees. someone needs to step up and say, "sorry, the deer herds and elk herds (currently) are not good. We have to make changes for the HERDS and some of you may be dissapointed, but in the very near future thing should be restored and we think you will all be much happier" that is what should be said.

Why are we letting people make the decisions through questionairs? i can see getting opinions, but come one. Number one, the herds need to be good, then number two, meet the peoples needs.

I think this is a far cry from really complaining, but even if it is .... so be it!


Travis
www.RidgelineOutdoors.com
Blacks-Creek Packs Dealer
 
Voicing an opinion is not whining it is an opinion. It is taken as whining only when the opinion given does not agree with the person listening to the opinion.

As to the ?growing? elk population. Do you really believe that there is a growing elk population in the state of Idaho?
You said that ? you are freakin crazy if you want to argue that the elk herds have been decimated in the last 20 years, as they are no where near as low as they where then.?

Well lets look at this should we. In 1989 there were a total of 14,665 controlled elk permits. In 2009 there was a total of 16,381 elk permits. How can this be? Well all a person has to look at is the number of OPEN elk hunts in 1989 to see where the ?extra? permits come from we have today. Also units like 54, 47, 55 have came on strong because of Nevada elk moving into the southern units.
Back in 1989 we had open any bull hunts. Like unit 51 ,58, 59, 59A,60, 61, 62A, was an open any bull hunt, now they is a permit. Unit 45 had an OPEN elk hunt for archery it is now a permit. Unit 61 was an either sex open elk hunt, and now it is a 200 permit controlled hunt!
But lets dissect this a little bit just to see what the permit numbers are in lets just take one unit how about unit 43. In 1989 unit 43 had 500 bull tags. It had 400 cow tags. The total for the unit was 900 permits. 2009 is a different story. There are now 104 bull tags, and 0 cow tags for a total in unit 43 of 104 permits total.
Unit 43 went from 900 total permits in 1989 to 104 permits in 2009? How did that happen in a era of growing elk populations?
I can't get data from 1989 to see harvest data 20 years ago but I can go back to 2000. Unit 43 had if I am not mistaken and someone please check this number. unit 43 had 1201 permits!!!! It also only had an estimated harvest of only 202 elk, and remember that was a estimate.
Lets look at year 2008 in unit 43. From what I can find there were a total of 144 tags in unit 43 in 2008. If you look at hunter harvest for unit 43 in 2008 you will find a total of 33 elk killed. From 2008 to 2009 the tags were slashed by 40 permits!! Does that yell expanding elk populations?
Now that is a look at only one unit. I know some of the southern units have elk, and hunts that were not around 20 years ago but they don't offer opportunity to a large scale.
How can you say that the current management practice is for opportunity? As I see it opportunity in unit 43 has been SLASHED!!!!!! From a total of 1200 tags in 2000 to 104 in 2009 I would say that is not an opportunity increase is it?
And to end this I am going to say I am a volunteer, and I do my part shooting predators. You might think this is whining, I think you have your head in the sand if you think everything is rosy, and hunting in this state is great. Populations of all huntable game in this state is a sorry state of affairs. Can it come back? In some cases yes but it will take time and sacrifices. For other animals the fat lady is about to finish the song. Ron



>You guys are a bunch of
>typcial WHINERS!
>
>I have a very good friend
>who is a F&G Regional
>CO and I can tell
>you these guys focus on
>making things better for hunters
>in Idaho. You all
>make is sound like they
>have an agenda against you.
> Tell me what their
>motivation is to do that?
> They don't get paid
>on commission. What they
>are is extremely limited by
>a lack of resources.
>Because this state doesn't cater
>solely to the NR, which
>keeps their funds limited, they
>can't afford to buy their
>own helicopters and planes like
>Colorado. They have to
>rely on volunteers like myself
>and my son to help
>trap and tag deer for
>studies.
>
>You all Bi#*ch about wanting to
>be treated like customers.
>but being selfish, what you
>don't consider is that you
>are NOT the only customers.
> The F&G goes out
>of their way to listen
>to the public and contrary
>to what you think, the
>GENERAL concensus and MAJORITY opinion
>among the hunting public is
>they want OPPORTUNITY first.
>Most Idaho hunters don't want
>to give up their ability
>to hunt for a buck
>every year. No matter
>what you say here I
>know you all wouldn't be
>willing to sit at home
>for 5 years to get
>the opportunity to shoot an
>older deer. The fact
>is you have an opportunity
>to kill a big buck
>EVERY year here.
>
>I agree that since the huge
>winter kill in the early
>90's the deer herds here
>have not recovered. No
>one seems ot know the
>answer. What I think
>based on my experience is
>that: 1) We
>have never let up enough
>through general hunting to let
>the age class of the
>deer get back up.
>2) The amount of
>development on crucial wintering grounds
>has grown exponentially in the
>past 15 years 3)
> Competition from "GROWING" elk
>herds
>
>Think about that last point.
>You can all whine all
>you want about our "disappearing"
>game, but you are freakin
>crazy if you want to
>argue that the elk herds
>have been decimated in the
>last 20 years, as they
>are no where near as
>low as they where then.
> Even with the dreaded
>wolf, that has only leveled
>their numbers statewide the past
>5 or so years.
>Yes the wolves have had
>a major impact in certain
>areas and Yes the wolves
>need to be controlled as
>all predators do, but they
>have NOT reduced overall statewide
>elk numbers. I believe
>a lot of the complaints
>about missing elk is answered
>by the fact that due
>to the wolves the elk
>aren't found in open country
>any more and most aren't
>willing to head to the
>heavy timber pockets to find
>them.
>
>DO NOT blame F&G for the
>states predator problems. As
>concerned sportsment you have all
>the tools you need at
>your disposal. The seasons
>on predators are as liberal
>here as in any other
>state. Why should fish
>and game pay to hire
>professionals to kill predators.
>Would you be willing to
>pay a few extra hundred
>bucks a year so F&G
>can better handle the predator
>problem or go kill some
>yourself. Hell, spin it
>any way you want, but
>IDAHO has successfully managed to
>get a WOlf season, something
>most whiners like yourselves said
>would never happen with all
>your SSS rhetoric. Wyoming
>F&G didn't manage this did
>they. Montana only has
>half the quota we do,
>though apparently their hunters are
>a lot better than ours
>as they have almost met
>theirs and we haven't even
>hit 50%, IN OUR FIRST
>YEAR WHEN THE WOLVES AREN"T
>EVEN AFRAID OF US YET.
> Yet I don't hear
>you WHINERS applauding the fact
>that F&G is going to
>extend that season so we
>can try and make a
>dent in the population.
>
>Look, I get pissed at hearing
>all the whiners when I
>know how hard the men
>and ladies at fish and
>game work to try and
>make it better. If
>you asked most of the
>CO's and big game folks,
>they want to get the
>quality back up. If
>they weren't following the wants
>of the masses I think
>they would like to limit
>the take to try and
>get the age class older
>and the bucks bigger.
>That is the bottom line,
>if we let the bucks
>get older before we kill
>them they will be MUCH
>bigger. I, personally, am
>in favor of that as
>much as it would pain
>me not to have the
>opportunity every year to hunt
>AT ALL. You can't
>have it both ways as
>the numbers just don't work.
> Unless you think it
>is FAIR to have the
>minority opinion that Quality should
>come before Opportunity supercede the
>majority opinion that contradicts it,
>then the Fish and Games
>hands are tied as they
>are listening to their customers.
>
>
>I apologize for the rant, I
>feel your pain in terms
>of wanting more quality myself,
>but I think you have
>to really think about what
>the day to day field
>workers at fish and game
>are doing. Go kill
>some predators as that is
>OUR job. Get on
>the volunteer list and come
>help wrestle some deer and
>elk this winter why the
>biologist do their studies.
>Lastly, and I mean this
>with all sincerity.......Quit WHining!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-09 AT 10:31AM (MST)[p]Unit 43 is poor example to use due to the fact a significant percentage of those critters are supplmentally fed (bad decision) and will winter poorly due to total dependance on feeding stations.

I'm not too sure about herd growth although in some areas I'm sure it is. Others not so much. What I do know is that right now today, there are more elk in SOUTHERN Idaho than there were in the eighties. Elk hunting is better right now than it was then as a general statement. But it's declining.........also as a general statement.

Sometime in the early ninties the elk population absolutely EXPLODED down here. Elk hunting was fantastic really throughout that decade and into the early part of this one. Not so much anymore although it's not near as bad as alot of people would have you believe.
So what happened? well, the only change I'm aware of is the introduction of an anti-elk machine called the wolf. Pretty much as their numbers grew, elk numbers shrank (or at least became less visable). Hopefully a balance can be achieved sometime soon but thats pretty much the way I see it cut and dry. anyone with a better explanation I'd be glad to hear it.

North Idaho is the exact opposite. Back in the day it was THE place to hunt elk really throughout the west. But even before the wolves....It began to falter. As the population in the south grew and expanded it dwindled. Add wolves to the mix and now it's barely a shadow of what it used to be. My take on that situation is that restrictions on logging have been as damaging, maybe more so than wolves. Either way it's sad to watch it decline.

Anyway, as has been proven many times now. People in Idaho want to hunt. Always been that way and hopefully always will be that way. Game populations fluxuate naturally and otherwise. As I've said repeatedly on this board, Managment practices should be evaluated on a REGION by REGION basis.......Broad generalizations and sweeping change statewide will be met with resistance from most. Including myself. There are several things I'd like to see happen that would reduce opportunity for some folks, but would benefit the populations and point blank shoud be done (i.e. eliminate the two point owyhee hunt but increase the number of controlled tags for those units).

Overall I believe people should have the opportunity to hunt, as much as possible. Hunting should not become "exclusive" or anymore restrictive for the common man than it already is. It's one of the last "real" things we can participate in and teaches young people more about life and the way things are than just about anything I can think of. It's part of our heritage in this state and i sure as hell hope a balance can be struck to keep it alive for generations to come.
 
There is a lot that has been said and a lot of what BPK Hunter said is true, we do need to predator hunt and control them that way if possible. I would love to volunteer, but personally that is not the answere that I feel that is going to solve the problems, we need the support from them government mostly state. They need to realize the impact that hunters and fisherman, and just people who go for a drive have an impact in their state and community. I dont think the majority of them do, but i think they need to help more, all in all the finger cannot be pointed in one direction as there are four others being pointed somewhere else at othter culprits.
 
I just have to say something about their Idea of opportunity. I am hunting a late season deer bow hunt that has a rifle controlled hunt, as well as Muzzleloader hunt that is concurrent. The only hunt that is restricted is bow hunt which is whitetail only. It is part of group of unit's open who also have late season rifle tags going on as well for Mule deer or whitetail.. I have to say this obviously is not really pratical and makes no sense. I mean primitive weapon's trying to get close to game that has been hammered general season and now a late rifle tag. Same with elk hunt's they will overlap and also have rifle hunt's going on .... It drives me nuts....
And as I have said before having individuals appointed to a commission that oversee's our fish and game and it's decision's who have no vested interest in wildlife Like my home district Senator Jeff Sidoway who is responsible for building a privite high fence hunt on critical migration route and winter range on Sand Creek, As well as being the sponsor for new bighorn bill that allows for wild bighorn's and their interest's to be subverted to the Sheep industry which he is part of. Get sportsmen in there and not a hodge podge of political appointments!! These are my gripes.
 
Tworivers. I hear you, but if you look at the other side of that argument "gripes". My understadning is that the vast majority of people want to have the opportunity to hunt deer and elk at that same time. That is going to make for a few screwy seasons. I can't say that I aggree with it either, but it seems pretty consistant in surveys.
Having "sportsman" only on the commision could cause problems as well. (not likey the ones with the sheep and bighorn). However you get a few "trophy hunters" on a commision and we would have Utah elk hunting pretty quick. ya, ya, ya... big bulls for every body. More like you get to hunt for a mature bulls once in your life, and you get to shoot spikes the rest of the time. Imagine the junk show with high powered guides and access to privete property, land owner tags, governer tags on and on.
I am ceratainly not puting down you ideas or gripes, just saying be careful what we ask for and look out for the unintended consequences.
I am all for reducing rifle opportuity, and increasing short range hunts. Mostly because it is a two to one opportunity increase, especially on a LE hunt. (for every rifle tag you remove you could increase two short range tags due to success rates). However, that is just my little biased "gripe" since I bow hunt way more than gun hunt. Not sure how fun it would be to have two-three times as many bow hunters out there.....
 
I think 43 is a good example of direction that the population is going. Fact is those elk are gone and the units beside it are also seeing reductions in elk. Tag numbers in most of this region are falling fast as they should. The lower the animal numbers get the less tags can be sold. When hunters from region 4 can no longer hunt elk here they will go to another region. And the snowball will roll. Ron



>LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-09
>AT 10:31?AM (MST)
>
>Unit 43 is poor example to
>use due to the fact
>a significant percentage of those
>critters are supplmentally fed (bad
>decision) and will winter poorly
>due to total dependance on
>feeding stations.
>
 
BPKhunter. You have some good points about killing more predators,and how the fish and game are limited on funds. I am a native to Idaho and have seen a major decline in mule deer in my years and I hope fish and game can come up with a good plan to bring them back and I will back them 100%. And as for the elk they were thriving in the 90s but now there is a for sure decline in the herds, Im not sure if increased hunting in Idaho or wolfs have caused it but it should be looked at. I think the very best thing to do is stop killing so many doe and cows, And as much as I hate to say it they need to reduce the late rut hunts and let them do their thing..
 
>...yeah, something close to it, but
>I assure you I don't
>work for IDFG.
>I am accused of belittling you,
>read the first 20 posts.
>
>I'm off to ND to hunt
>pheasants for a week, have
>fun brainstorming.


Gee, why aren't you hunting pheasants in Idaho?
 
Bear, I am talking about having deer hunts, with a rifle hunt , a muzzleloader hunt, and a bow hunt all at same time for same deer In same Unit. A bow or muzzleloader is not gonna be getting close. That being said... I have had whitetails within muzzy range just not bow on this hunt. I use whatever I have too I am not an advocate for one or another.

I know that the 5 day war for elk goes along with deer hunt. It has been this way for a long time.

Nowhere in my verbage did I say put "sportman" only on commission. I said individuals who have a vested interest in wildlife, I.E they will do what is best for game. We have had some great commissioner's, and we have had some questionable ones.
 
Well I've been off the forum for a while and coming back to this post it is nice to see more debate and less "bitching". Sorry, I do agree that you all have your right to your opinion, but I think the criticism of the folks at Fish and Game are simply misplaced MOST of the time. Some good points where made about conflicts of interest. The crux of the issue most of us have is the difference between Quantity vs. Quality. Since my long response here my son killed a 188 Gross buck on a late hunt. That buck spent all year in a general hunt, so obviously there are some out there still.

I hate to say it but if we wanted to get better quality, we would pretty much have to stop killing bucks for 2 years and then limit take on an annual basis relative to the conditions, as even the winter 2 years ago had a dramatic effect on the bucks, and would probably have warranted less tags.

You all make good points, and I agree that elk hunting is worse today than some points more recently, but I think this is as much the fluctuations that all game herds go through and the demise of the Clearwater herd has more to do with the changes to the habitat up there. Remember the health of the deer and elk herds are not mutually exclusive, as the increase of the elk herds have something to do with the decline in Mule deer, at least in some areas. I know of a rancher in unit 51 whose family has ranched there for many generations who said the decline of deer there are directly proportional to the increase in elk.

So, in conclusion..I'll give up buck hunting for a few years if you will! We all agree that more predators need to be killed, and so why don't we all kill 5 coyotes this year more than we did last. Let's talk more about how to kill the wolves we have alloted to us. Lastly, if we want bigger bucks let's be very vocal to fish and game about it, as I guarantee you the guys I know there want the same thing but until they feel there is compelling evidence that is the highest priority of the tax paying public they can't change there management practices to focus on Quality as priority number 1.
 
BPK you make some good points, especially the one point about deer numbers going down where elk numbers went up. I've noticed over the years that as the elk numbers went up, the available food sources in the mahoganies and other browse went up higher off the ground in the winter ranges.
While it's great to be able to kill a big buck, it seems like most of the people on this forum think they should be able to kill a big buck every year. In reality if the state were managed for killing big bucks only, a hunter might get the chance to hunt a big buck about once every ten years, or something like that, and the resident hunter population won't go for that and I don't blame them. Then if they did that they would have to substantially raise the price of tags to make up the loss in revenue's and the general resident hunting population would raise hell over that.
I've got my grips with the IDFG and I vote with my dollars. I did not buy a res-nonres elk tag this year, which I usually do. I will not buy a deer tag next year unless I get drawn on a controlled deer hunt, and etc.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-09 AT 03:47PM (MST)[p] It would help alot in otc units if IDFG would get rid of all late (from nov. on)hunts for bucks and bulls. If an older buck is smart enough to make it through a general season he should be allowed to breed and not be shot when his guard is down. This way there would always be an older class of buck to breed and you may get to see him during the season the next year. Who cares if some of these bucks die of old age! I will garantee that you will sell more licences to residents and non-residents alike with just being able to see a huge buck. The only predator we need to control other than wolves is the two legged kind! It would also be nice to scatter hunters out by making them pick their weapons, no more hunting for 4 months,we should be willing to give-up something to make it better!
 
Another thing I see wrong with these late hunts, at least in Eastern Idaho,there is so many hunts going on at the same time, cow hunts, bull hunts, buck deer hunts and doe hunts that they are not coming down to their winter ranges until very late, some will always get stuck pretty high on the mountain leaving them easy pickins for wolves. It's time to discontinue this program as there is very few trophy quality animals harvested anymore.
I would personally perfer units 58,59,59A,60,60A,61,62 and 62A all be controlled hunts that were very limited, especially for deer, as the human population is getting larger and the access with all the ATV's is down right disgusting. Parts of western and southern Idaho have long been controlled hunts and hold a far better age class of deer, it's about time they stopped dumping all the otc hunters on eastern Idaho.
 
I dont have a dog in this fight but when you try to appear to be smarter than everyone you should be able to spell the classes you are suggesting. Sociology is a class but socialogy might be a new religion or something. When you want to appear to be smart hit the spell check. Obviously some of the guys posting have education in the school of life not books but when you take the smarter than thou route you lose your clout when you spell like the uneducated.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-09 AT 11:58AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-09 AT 11:54?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-09 AT 11:16?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-09 AT 11:09?AM (MST)

>If you guys are really serious
>about making a difference, the
>first thing I would suggest
>you do is go down
>to the local library and
>read a book on wildlife
>management. When you are
>finished with that one, try
>some ecology, political science, socialogy,
>and economics. By then
>you might know what the
>heck you are talking about.
>
>Volunteer some time and money to
>make a difference. There
>are organizations all over the
>country including your own G
>and F Department that are
>understaffed and underfunded that could
>use your help. Building
>better wildlife populations isn't free
>and complaining about it on
>some internet chat forum isn't
>part of the solution.


How about the IDFG stop whining about not having enough money and help and do the the right thing, I believe the money would flow alot more freely. You have to have a product people are willing to buy into,as of now I don't believe we have that. You ARE going to have to cut opportunity in order to get numbers and quality back. The easiest predator to control is ourselves.
You tell me what has gotten us to this point, education or money! It seems to me that education has had ample time to get this fixed. If biologists are so smart, tell me why we are in the spot we are now. How about we do somthing for Widlife instead of the I want to go hunting and shoot something every year crowd!


Hey man where's spell check, then I can quit looking in the dictionary!
 
Last I checked this was a hunting site not a grammar test. Did you understand the message he conveyed or were you just focused on grading the spelling?
 
Please excuse my ignorance in asking a dumb question because I'm not an ID resident, but does Idaho have a county wildlife board process? Utah has their RAC's, Nevada has county game boards, etc.

The reason I ask is that we all get on here and complain about how things could be so much better if we were making the decisions. We give out our expertise down at the local bar, or taxidermy shop, or whatever, but when there's an opportunity for public input, nobody shows up.

In my home state, half the hunters I know complain about how the F&G sucks, or there's no big bucks left, or they can't get a tag, or there's too many hunters, or whatever, but I've NEVER seen more than 5 guys at a county game board meeting where all of the tag & season decisions are made.

Again, I'm not familiar with Idaho's processes, I'm just saying that most states have a public input process that gets very little use.
 
They did a big survey 2 years ago i believe and majority wanted the opportunity to hunt every year bla, bla.

the problem with their survey was the way that they worded most of it. of course everyone wants to hunt every year and shoot mature bucks but what are they willing to give up?

they also have public meeting that people can go to and give their imput. there arent a lot of guys that go.

Travis
www.RidgelineOutdoors.com
Blacks-Creek Packs Dealer
 
Problem with the meetings are, they are few and far between, at least in the areas they effect, and you can talk until the cows come home, but in Idaho it still comes down to tags sold for income and opportunity, even when numbers are in the tank from winter kill or over harvest or predators. I guess if you read some of the posts above there is an over abundance of deer and elk in some parts of Idaho. If I'm the village idiot and they have the PHD's and Masters degrees, I should be able to depend on IDFG to know more about management of wildlife than I. If there's a problem why do we have to have a public meeting to tell them what to do?
Lets be real wolves were brought here to limit hunting opportunity, can we have a public meeting and all agree to get rid of the damn things. It would do about as much good!!!!
 
Lets be
>real wolves were brought here
>to limit hunting opportunity, can
>we have a public meeting
>and all agree to get
>rid of the damn things.
>It would do about as
>much good!!!!


I think this sums up ID's problem - wolves.
 
Hey guys, a dreaded non-resident here. I hunt elk in Idaho, and have for the last 5 years. Last year was about to be our last, but we got lucky, and that will bring us back again this year.

But, like many others, the quality of the hunt along with pricing is trying to force us out. I was one of those non-residents that bucked up (replace the b with an f if needbe) and bought a wolf tag. My focus was never on finding a wolf during my hunt, but after seeing a pack while scouting, I wanted to be better prepared and not waste an opportunity to waste one of them.

So, my question is, if wolves are the main problem in Idaho, and by judging by a lot of the input on this as well as other sites it is, then why has the quota still not been met? I mean, there are just over 200 wolves allocated to be taken, and here we are 4 months after the opening and we still have seasons opened. This might look like I am a wolf advocate, which is most definitely not true. But I am honestly curious how that quota didn't get met much quicker than this. Because I would have expected many to take this golden opportunity to lawfully do their part to erradicate the problem. Is it because many are just like me, have a tag in hand just in case? I know if I was a resident of Idaho, and not subject to the rediculous fee that a non-resident is, I would be out there trying to fill a tag. I mean, after all, they are a huge reason the herds are in bad shape, are they not?

Trust me, I want to get back over there and get out and try to fill a tag. Just not sure I want to deal with the expenses that I would have to right now.

Just curious what everyone else thinks.
 
Wolves being a problem does not mean they're easy to hunt. I live in wolf country and I'm outdoors over 100 days a year. I see scat, tracks and hear calling frequently but only see a wolf about every other year. It's the same as mountain lions - we know they exist but rarely see them.

I carry my wolf tag as a just in case. $11.50 of wolf insurance. I wouldn't buy the tag if I were a non-res.
 
Wolves are still only part of the problem, several friends and I use to go to the wildlife meetings, the only people they seemed to hear were the ones that wanted to hunt for 4 months and hunt with every weapon. While I'm not a biologist, I have actually helped wildlife biologists do classifications and counts (wild deer & elk)on the ranch I guide for in Utah, I call BS on how they get their numbers, they juggle the numbers so it looks like exactly what they want it to. At least it's managed so there is numbers of wildlife. It will be interesting in coming years to see how they deal with the wolf, because tracks don't lie.
We may be losing as many hunters from disinterest, (especially youth), for the lack of game as anything. I would gladly take pick your weapon seasons. I'd take my month or 2 weeks of bow hunting and go home a happy man!
 
IDAHO is one of the worst managed States along with WA and OR. I put in for hunts in over 10 States each year but am dropping ID and OR from my list this year. ID needs to start a bonus point program, manage for more trophy quality, and lower NR fees to be in line with other States. However, the one thing that I do like in ID is that they make you choose to put in for either deer, elk and antelpe or one of the once in a life-time species. This makes ID the easiest State to draw a Moose, Mountain Goat or Bighorn Sheep Tag. ID has plenty of game and with proper managment could be one of the top two or three States for hunting in the West!!
 
A points system will not solve a lack of game, so it might be better, it might not. But just switching to a points system is not magically going to allow less tags that they will give out, and improve game. If they did decide to go to a draw only and allow a lot less tags rather than come one come all kill what you can units then it would help. As well as, with help from some other added annitiatives as well as the support from our local and state government as well as sportsman and the regular Joe as well you could go on and on, maybe we should ask President Obama, he seems to know how everything should work well? Just kidding. Just my two cents.
 
>Hey guys, a dreaded non-resident here.
> I hunt elk in
>Idaho, and have for the
>last 5 years. Last
>year was about to be
>our last, but we got
>lucky, and that will bring
>us back again this year.
>
>
>But, like many others, the quality
>of the hunt along with
>pricing is trying to force
>us out. I was
>one of those non-residents that
>bucked up (replace the b
>with an f if needbe)
>and bought a wolf tag.
> My focus was never
>on finding a wolf during
>my hunt, but after seeing
>a pack while scouting, I
>wanted to be better prepared
>and not waste an opportunity
>to waste one of them.
>
>
>So, my question is, if wolves
>are the main problem in
>Idaho, and by judging by
>a lot of the input
>on this as well as
>other sites it is, then
>why has the quota still
>not been met? I
>mean, there are just over
>200 wolves allocated to be
>taken, and here we are
>4 months after the opening
>and we still have seasons
>opened. This might look
>like I am a wolf
>advocate, which is most definitely
>not true. But I
>am honestly curious how that
>quota didn't get met much
>quicker than this. Because
>I would have expected many
>to take this golden opportunity
>to lawfully do their part
>to erradicate the problem.
>Is it because many are
>just like me, have a
>tag in hand just in
>case? I know if
>I was a resident of
>Idaho, and not subject to
>the rediculous fee that a
>non-resident is, I would be
>out there trying to fill
>a tag. I mean,
>after all, they are a
>huge reason the herds are
>in bad shape, are they
>not?
>
>Trust me, I want to get
>back over there and get
>out and try to fill
>a tag. Just not
>sure I want to deal
>with the expenses that I
>would have to right now.
>
>
>Just curious what everyone else thinks.
>


I would like to think there are a good number of hunters out there just blasting away at the wolves and not reporting them (lets just hope that is what is goiong on) my two cents would be eliminate the skin head hunts or at least drasticaly minimize them and make all of the state four point or better and let the deer grow up.
 
I am a Idaho native. I have hunted hunted deer in the clearwater region since I was 12 in 1987, I have hunted elk since I was 15 in 1989. I have been a successful hunter but the quality of deer and elk in the places I love to hunt has declined since the mid 90's. (Its a fact!) The deer hunting seasons are longer here than ever. Poaching is at an all time high. The bulk of the mature timber has been harvested leaving easy access on all the roads. Atv's are the the vehicle of choice to hunt from. The f&g offers unsold nonresident tags to us residents. Counting depredation tags, resident, and nonresident tags you can harvest up to 3 elk, and 3 deer. The whitetails have been decimated in many low lying agricultural areas by a biting gnat at watering holes throughout the clearwater region. Wolves have pushed our elk on this area to an all time low with no relief in sight. They make false comments on our game quality in mainstream hunting publications trying to sell more tags.

Now tell me of all the extraordinary programs fixing our problems. The fact is that they are lazy, and greedy. They want to ride this out to rock bottom. It looks like they wasted their money on college, because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where the problems are. If you go to a f&g meeting you are met with an attitude of indifference. They need fired, restructured, reeducated, and refocused!



"Winners make commitment, Losers make excuses.
 
Just an observation... How many of us out there have tried to work with fish and game to help out? I'm not saying that everything they do is worthy and just, yet there are oportunities for the general joe to help our wildlife. I know that in SE Idaho, F&G plants native brush every year on teh winter range. I help whenever I can. Its also a good time to talk one on one with the biologists about concerns and ideas. I don't use this as a ##### session... I am not an armchair biologist. I just feel like everyone is saying how the f&G is dropping the ball, and maybe they are in some ways. But I feel that we as hunters are in the same boat if we are not contributing in some way. If we simply sit back and point the finger we are no better.It is healthy for us all to disagree but we can all find ways to contribute in some way... more than simply saying to hell with you 'cuz you won't do what I feel is the only right action so I am not going to help. Just think what the outcome might be if every hunter planted just one bitterbrush seedling every spring. Just an observation.
 

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