Inheritance of bonus points

[JMO]

I've been reading about Wyoming HB124 that deals with the transfer of bonus points to a intermediate family member. I do not agree with that particular bill, but it does remind me of the 15 elk points my father inlaw left behind after his recent death. A lot of time, effort , money, and heartache was involved to acquire his bonus points. We were planning to put him in for a unit that he would have drawn that year for sure. He died unexpectedly or a brain aneurism before he could apply that year.

My question is what is your opinion on being able to transfer those points to a youth hunter that is a intermediate family member. I believe Arizona already has this in place.

 

[Zeke]

I'm against it...for many reasons and on many levels!

Words are bantered around like "fair" and "equitable" and a points transfer system would be neither fair nor equitable.

The new applicants, who have no one to gift them points, are counting on a certain amount of attrition and without it the whole thing would get really messed up.

Zeke

 

[littlebighorn]

I would start putting in all my old relatives so they could "gift" me their points when gone. It doesn't sound the least bit fair to everyone who has been playing the point game. Just another loop hole to jump to the front of the line. I hate it when someone does that!

 

[Hawkeye]

Justin-

I am sorry to hear about the passing of you father-in-law. The same thing happened to my wife's father a few years back-before he was able to burn his elk points. It is a sad situation but I would still oppose any transfer of such bonus points. In my mind, it raises too many potential problems and I would rather not go down that road.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD

 

[JMO]

Thanks for your input guys. I really haven't put alot of thought into the loop holes that it might create. I was talking with a friend that mentioned Arizona's transfer of points program. I liked the thought of one of my nephews having the chance to draw 10 years earlier. I would hate to read about some kid knocking of Grandpa in order to get his points. It makes me wonder what kind of problems Arizona has run into since its inception. You all bring up very valid points.

 

[coyoteslayer]

I really like az rule. A father or grandfather can give a tag they have drawn to a son or grandson that is a teenager. They don't get their points, just the tag that they have drawn. I will be giving my 10 year old son a 12aw early deer tag this year. It will mean more to me, to watch my son kill his first buck, then for me to shoot one.

 

[Zeke]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-21-13 AT 03:05PM (MST)[p]>I really like az rule. A
>father or grandfather can give
>a tag they have drawn
>to a son or grandson
>that is a teenager. They
>don't get their points, just
>the tag that they have
>drawn. I will be giving
>my 10 year old son
>a 12aw early deer tag
>this year. It will
>mean more to me, to
>watch my son kill his
>first buck, then for me
>to shoot one.

That's a whole different (better) kettle of fish than points transfering.

In your case the tag was/will be drawn by you with your points and you are simply gifting the hunt to someone else (your son or daughter etc).

Too many shenanigans would happen with any kind of points transfer program!

Zeke

 

[dz]

Oregon has a mentored hunt that is similar. Any youth can shoot your animal if signed up for the program. It also gives them an extra point in the draw system. It helps get the youngsters out in it. Oregon's starts at age 9. I'm all for these kind of system but completely against the ability to transfer points to another person. It is like lane closed ahead and everyone gets over. But there is always the one that goes by everyone and gets in. Always makes me mad. Point transfer is the same.

DZ

 

[rmanwill]

Plus one to Zeke's second reply. Give a drawn tag to a youth is great, but points acquired no. I put my father in for moose and elk for years, hoping to get him two good hunts for all he did and thought me!!! He pasted away early, due to medical conditions/cancer and should have been around long enough to draw a good tag for both. His almost max points went away. I hated to see it, but would sure hate to see the oppisite every time something like this or worst, someone bys points for several years to mess with the point system. This is coming from a guy with 19 points for himself and his wife, boththings happen and I may never get to use the points, but if points were allowed tobe acquired it would be even worst!! Just my thoughts.

 

[JMO]

I think most understand that my question is about points going to a youth hunter. Youth meaning 17 and under. I agree that in no way should points be transferred to a adult. I'm not sure I see the difference in allowing your child or grandchild to obtain the tag you drew, and using the tag you would have drawn by inheriting your points after your death. You are still letting them jump in front of the line sort of speak. I like the idea of being able to transfer the tag to your child or grandchild. I have no problem with that idea. I want you to think about giving one last gift to a child if you personally passed away with points in hand.
I agree that if it couldn't be monitored to stop abuse it would not work. Unfortunately some would definitely try and exploit the idea. These are just my thoughts I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong.

 

[tooele]

Just so everyone is clear. Arizona does not and has not ever transferred points to anyone youth or non-youth. As stated above in Arizona if a parent or grandparent actually draws a tag, then the tag can be transferred to a youth hunter. The parent or grandparent is technicaly supposed to be in camp hunting with the youth as well.

 

[JMO]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-13 AT 05:00PM (MST)[p]>Just so everyone is clear.
>Arizona does not and has
>not ever transferred points to
>anyone youth or non-youth.
>As stated above in Arizona
>if a parent or grandparent
>actually draws a tag, then
>the tag can be transferred
>to a youth hunter.
>The parent or grandparent is
>technicaly supposed to be in
>camp hunting with the youth
>as well.


Thank you. I'm not sure if I misunderstood what I was told, or if my friend misunderstood the law. Either way thanks for the clarification. I still think I like the idea of a youth inheriting the points of a intermediate family member who has passed away.

 

[dz]

I can't speak for your state on youth tags but here in Oregon they are very competitive. I don't see any reason to give one youth an advantage over another for any reason. It all sets up for people putting grandma in when she is 90 for points so JR can have them when she dies so he can jump to the front of the line. It just doesn't feel right to me.

DZ

 

[grizzly]

No point transfer, but tag transfer is okay.

I don't want tag transfer legal either though. I don't want to finally draw an elk tag and tell my kid he can't have it. It would be a lot easier to say, "I wish I could give it to you. But I can't. Too bad."

 

[JMO]

>No point transfer, but tag transfer
>is okay.
>
>I don't want tag transfer legal
>either though. I don't
>want to finally draw an
>elk tag and tell my
>kid he can't have it.
> It would be a
>lot easier to say, "I
>wish I could give it
>to you. But I
>can't. Too bad."
>


That's funny. My Dad drew a Henry mountain rifle tag this year, that my two nephews would have loved to get a hold of. I'm sure grandpa would have told them too bad My kids are too young to hunt now, but more than likely he won't draw another deer or elk tag in his life. I think he could aquire some more elk points to pass on though. I would just like to inherit his luck he has now drawn San Juan early elk with 7 points, and Henry's deer with 6.

 

[ElkManDan]

Utah isn't very interested in getting new hunters out there on trophy animals. Youth can't even put in for LE hunts the first 2 years they are eligible to hunt. I don't ever see anything like this happening, nor would I support it. As stated above it would just increase the amount of elderly putting in for the draw and make it even more difficult to get a good tag.

 

[Nebsy]

I would like to see our Wildlife Board address this issue. The problem is that they have created a value in points. A hunter may 'invest' for many years acquiring points only to have those points die with him/her. I personally think of my bonus/preference points as an long term investment that I purchase each and every year. What if I were to become disabled/paralyzed or in some way unable to utilize that investment? I think that we CAN come up with a way to transfer points to a child/grandchild in a way that is appropriate. We can also do it in a way that is difficult to abuse.
Ideas:
1- A (substantial?) fee is charged for the transfer of points.
2- An 'heir' must be established prior to death or points go through probate.
3- Recipient of the deceased points must wait a minimum number of years before they can be used.

There are definitely laws that would need to be written. i.e. If I died today and left my points for my 7 year old daughter, under current law those points would evaporate before she is even old enough to hunt.
I personally think that Utah lawmakers have a responsibility to address this issue. The bonus point system works but it also creates incredible value that can be protected for posterity.

 

[tracker12]

Use them or loose them. It's your choice to hold out for a better unti. Most point systems are clogged up enough with the current systems. Add transferring points and who knows where that would go. I personally would do away with all point systems and make it a random draw with 5 year ban on some tags if you draw and once in a lifetime on others.

 

[Zeke]

No matter how well intended a points transfer program would be, there would always be unintended consequences.

It would vault some way ahead of others which would defeat the purpose of the points system in the first place.

Points were established to reward those who make consistent application. IT SHOULD NOT REWARD THOSE WHO MAKE APPLICATION FOR THE ELDERLY HOPING THEY WILL DIE, LEAVING HEIRS TO FIGHT OVER THE POINTS!!!!

My vote EVERY time would be NO.

Too many people would "work" the system which would be far from fair albeit well intended in it's origin.

Zeke

 

[Zeke]

One more thing.
Wyoming was looking at a system by which you could transfer points to a child. Personally my kids would benefit but it would launch my son and one of my daughters, for sheep, WAY ahead of the guy who has been applying for more than 1 1/2 decades!

My kids would draw next year whereas YOU would continue to wait years and years MORE because of the now-flawed program!

Too many worms in this can to every allow it to be open!

Zeke

 

[280remington]

I guess I am missing something here but where is the.. "A lot of time, effort , money, and heartache was involved to acquire his bonus points."

How could bonus points possibly require time or effort??? Isn't it just a matter of turning on the computer and clicking the mouse after entering some credit card info???

 

[JMO]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-09-13 AT 00:53AM (MST)[p]>I guess I am missing something
>here but where is the..
> "A lot of time,
>effort , money, and heartache
>was involved to acquire his
>bonus points."
>
>How could bonus points possibly require
>time or effort??? Isn't it
>just a matter of turning
>on the computer and clicking
>the mouse after entering some
>credit card info???

I read your post numerous times trying not to be offended. It was my words you quoted above. I was speaking of a man I loved dearly. So excuse me for being sensitive , but I must say yes you are missing something.
16 bonus points equals 16 years. In my father in laws case it meant 18 years. Two years money was tight and he felt that supporting his family was more important. So he did not apply. Is 18 years not time ? Perhaps you've been blessed with never going without. Many work hard to take care of their families and can not afford to do much else. The effort isn't put forth when filling out the application. One might say that you can put forth effort in studying what areas you apply to hunt in. I believe it does take time and effort to acquire bonus points.
I only started this thread to see what peoples feelings were towards the idea of inheriting points. I've enjoyed peoples remarks and kind words. I'm not one to try to cheat, or serve my own selfish agenda. I was only thinking of a way to pass on a mans love of hunting to a child. My father in law died before he could ever kill a mature bull. Its too bad there isn't a way to allow the transfer of his points to a grandchild. Could you imagine the experience, and the emotions of being on the mountain just after Grandpas dream of killing a mature bull was fulfilled by a grandchild.

I doubt that the inheritance of points will ever happen due to the possibility of fraud. Dishonest, and selfish people will always find a way to ruin a good thing.

 

[hossblur]

>LAST EDITED ON Jan-21-13
>AT 03:05?PM (MST)
>
>>I really like az rule. A
>>father or grandfather can give
>>a tag they have drawn
>>to a son or grandson
>>that is a teenager. They
>>don't get their points, just
>>the tag that they have
>>drawn. I will be giving
>>my 10 year old son
>>a 12aw early deer tag
>>this year. It will
>>mean more to me, to
>>watch my son kill his
>>first buck, then for me
>>to shoot one.
>
>That's a whole different (better) kettle
>of fish than points transfering.
>
>
>In your case the tag was/will
>be drawn by you with
>your points and you are
>simply gifting the hunt to
>someone else (your son or
>daughter etc).
>
>Too many shenanigans would happen with
>any kind of points transfer
>program!
>
>Zeke

The kid should give up his points too. I would like to hunt an LE twice with just my points.



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[hossblur]

I have twins, how we making that choice? Its called a lottery for a reason, you have not "invested" any more than I did up in Idaho playing powerball. I lost my dad, and his 10 elk points, I never once thought about that when he died. Seems a curious thought, not at all commenting on your loss or grieving, don't take it wrong.

Also, can you imagine being the only grandkid? 4 grandparents and 2 parents putting you in the draw, WOW! Yeah I know I live in Utah so that would never happen, but "what if"?

I find it interesting that we are so worried about our kids hunting, then turning around and supporting the SFW vision and cutting 250,000 tags in the last 20 yrs. How many of those were kids? Seems perhaps we should worry more about getting the kids out hunting more than chasing "trophys" and inches like the old men. My first deer was a 2x3, every animal since then has faded in my memory yet that one is clear as a bell. Sorry guys but we are misplasing our values, we need kids to be out hunting everything, not just 350 bulls and 30" bucks, if that is the mark we are setting for them, they are as good as gone now!!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[JMO]

>I have twins, how we making
>that choice? Its called
>a lottery for a reason,
>you have not "invested" any
>more than I did up
>in Idaho playing powerball.
>I lost my dad, and
>his 10 elk points, I
>never once thought about that
>when he died. Seems
>a curious thought, not at
>all commenting on your loss
>or grieving, don't take it
>wrong.
>
>Also, can you imagine being the
>only grandkid? 4 grandparents
>and 2 parents putting you
>in the draw, WOW!
>Yeah I know I live
>in Utah so that would
>never happen, but "what if"?
>
>
>I find it interesting that we
>are so worried about our
>kids hunting, then turning around
>and supporting the SFW vision
>and cutting 250,000 tags in
>the last 20 yrs.
>How many of those were
>kids? Seems perhaps we
>should worry more about getting
>the kids out hunting more
>than chasing "trophys" and inches
>like the old men.
>My first deer was a
>2x3, every animal since then
>has faded in my memory
>yet that one is clear
>as a bell. Sorry
>guys but we are misplasing
>our values, we need kids
>to be out hunting everything,
>not just 350 bulls and
>30" bucks, if that is
>the mark we are setting
>for them, they are as
>good as gone now!!
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"

Let me start by stating I am a very strong supporter of SFW. This thread has nothing to do with them. I do not know you but have read many of your posts. You've made it perfectly clear you do not agree with SFW. The vision of SFW is not to eliminate hunters but to conserve our wildlife, so that future generations may be able to have animals to hunt. Its too bad you waste your time making up lies about a group dedicated to ensuring our hunting heritage for future generations. It sounds like if you had your way we would hunt our herds into extinction. Do you believe that our deer heard could support now the same number of hunters it did 20 years ago. SFW and its supporters are doing more now then ever to help the states mule deer recovery. I know you're aware of the efforts being made. I too am a father of twins and I am working to ensure them the opportunity to hunt in the future. What are you doing ?

 

[280remington]

JMO, a bonus point costs $10.... I am still having a very difficult time understanding how $10 per year could be a financial strain on anybody!!!!!!

 

[JMO]

>JMO, a bonus point costs $10....
>I am still having a
>very difficult time understanding how
>$10 per year could be
>a financial strain on anybody!!!!!!
>

I'm done explaining things to you. I've already wasted enough time and effort on you. Go start an argument with someone else.

 

[Zeke]

Planning, plotting, dreaming with a deep desire to chase a trophy bull/buck/ram etc is something much deeper than 10 dollars and a computer click!

I disagree with JMO on transfering points but I'm certainly in his corner on the true value of points. A dozen points hold much more value than a hundred and twenty bucks!

Zeke

 

[Nebsy]

The argument keeps repeating that any inheritance program would be selfish/self-serving/cheating/fraudulent/etc. etc. etc.

Honestly, I can't think of anything less selfish. To have spent decades applying, hoping, waiting...... and die. Am I the only one that'll be rolling in there grave 'thinking' of all those bonus points being for not?
The same arguments that y'all make regarding points might as well be applied to monetary wealth. I.E. A home should not be inherited because the 'real' value would be for a young person to have to sacrifice and build there own. I recognize that value but I think we all agree that preventing personal wealth from being transferred to heirs is crazy.
Why would we have a double standard? Do your points hold no value? If you could purchase additional points for 100$.... would you? We all know the answer. I'll guess the open market value would be closer to 1,000$ Would you give up your OIL points for 1,000$ each?
For those of you who believe that points should not be transferred to your posterity.... are you giving all of your assets to charity upon your death? If not, then I say you are holding a double standard.
Hunting is tradition... and most often it is a family tradition. The hard reality is that my 7 year old daughter, or my 20 year old twins..... will likely NEVER draw a desert bighorn tag in this state. EVER. If they apply every year that they are eligible until they are senior citizens the odds will never be in their favor. Is it not reasonable for my children to benefit from my commitment to Utah's wildlife? Or should that value die with me?
In an hour I could write the laws and create the documents that would make the system nearly cheat-proof.
If your father/mother applied for a permit in Utah for 20 years and died or became impaired before he could fulfill that dream.... Yes I do believe that HE should have had the opportunity to pass that value onto his heirs. Not because they deserve it..... but because he did.

 

[Zeke]

>The argument keeps repeating that any
>inheritance program would be selfish/self-serving/cheating/fraudulent/etc.
>etc. etc.
>
>Honestly, I can't think of anything
>less selfish. To have
>spent decades applying, hoping, waiting......
> and die. Am
>I the only one that'll
>be rolling in there grave
>'thinking' of all those bonus
>points being for not?
>The same arguments that y'all make
>regarding points might as well
>be applied to monetary wealth.
> I.E. A home
>should not be inherited because
>the 'real' value would be
>for a young person to
>have to sacrifice and build
>there own. I recognize
>that value but I think
>we all agree that preventing
>personal wealth from being transferred
>to heirs is crazy.
>Why would we have a double
>standard? Do your points
>hold no value? If
>you could purchase additional points
>for 100$.... would you?
> We all know
>the answer. I'll guess
>the open market value would
>be closer to 1,000$
>Would you give up your
>OIL points for 1,000$ each?
>
>For those of you who believe
>that points should not be
>transferred to your posterity....
>are you giving all of
>your assets to charity upon
>your death? If not,
>then I say you are
>holding a double standard.
>Hunting is tradition... and
>most often it is a
>family tradition. The hard
>reality is that my 7
>year old daughter, or my
>20 year old twins.....
>will likely NEVER draw a
>desert bighorn tag in this
>state. EVER. If
>they apply every year that
>they are eligible until they
>are senior citizens the odds
>will never be in their
>favor. Is it not
>reasonable for my children to
>benefit from my commitment to
>Utah's wildlife? Or should
>that value die with me?
>
>In an hour I could write
>the laws and create the
>documents that would make the
>system nearly cheat-proof.
>If your father/mother applied for a
>permit in Utah for 20
>years and died or became
>impaired before he could fulfill
>that dream.... Yes I
>do believe that HE should
>have had the opportunity to
>pass that value onto his
>heirs. Not because they
>deserve it..... but because
>he did.


Uh, because if you inherit a house it does diminish the value of other's homes.

If you get 10 points from your old man then there will be lots of guys out there who should have drawn. Sometimes people die with unfinished business... like.... everyone who dies!

Sorry man but your "house" analogy is just plain dumb.

Zeke

 

[dz]

Why should I pay the price of not having anyone to give me their points because all of my ancestors have died. There is no good reason why anyone should get someone else?s points. They all point to moving to the front of the line. At least right now I know where the front of the line is. Just say no to changing the rules in the middle of the game. Also I don't think there is enough Sheep for everyone to take one. So somebody has to leave this life without doing it.

DZ

 

[JMO]

>Why should I pay the price
>of not having anyone to
>give me their points because
>all of my ancestors have
>died. There is no
>good reason why anyone should
>get someone else?s points.
>They all point to moving
>to the front of the
>line. At least right
>now I know where the
>front of the line is.
> Just say no to
>changing the rules in the
>middle of the game.
>Also I don't think there
>is enough Sheep for everyone
>to take one. So
>somebody has to leave this
>life without doing it.
>
>DZ

Why don't I get to inherit a billion dollars and Donald Trumps kids will ?
I don't think that is fair either.

 

[Nebsy]

JMO
You're exactly right.
So why do we accept that an individual can transfer his financial wealth to an heir while we restrict hunters from transferring their points?
That's exactly the point I am trying to make. We hold ourselves to a double standard. Accepting inheritance of financial assets but not allowing it with valuable points.
I'm not dead set on seeing this happen. I just think it would be interesting to explore the idea of it.

 

[dz]

Does anyone receiving money from grandpa affect me. No not in the least. Not even close to a double standard. The points that I have, have a calculation with them that tell me when I should be in the drawing for that hunt. If the game changes along the way and Johnny gets his grandpa's points he goes to the front of the line. That does affect me, and all those that have points and would have a good idea when they can cash in those points. Bad idea.

DZ

 

[Zeke]

>So why do we accept that
>an individual can transfer his
>financial wealth to an heir
>while we restrict hunters from
>transferring their points?


I think the confusion arises when you fail to differentiate between wealth with value.

Points have a value, to the holder only, but they are not a wealth asset to be distributed, sold, traded or handed down.

As soon as points can be sold, traded, passed down etc they will take on some form of wealth asset status and the system would be begging for corruption!

If and when these points are managed in the same way as wealth assets, you'll see lots of gaming for points. It will cheapen their "value" while increasing their "price"..... and increase the points logjam!

Zeke

 

[JMO]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-13-13 AT 00:39AM (MST)[p]>
>>So why do we accept that
>>an individual can transfer his
>>financial wealth to an heir
>>while we restrict hunters from
>>transferring their points?
>
>
>I think the confusion arises when
>you fail to differentiate between
>wealth with value.
>
>Points have a value, to the
>holder only, but they are
>not a wealth asset to
>be distributed, sold, traded or
>handed down.
>
>As soon as points can be
>sold, traded, passed down etc
>they will take on some
>form of wealth asset status
>and the system would be
>begging for corruption!
>
>If and when these points are
>managed in the same way
>as wealth assets, you'll see
>lots of gaming for points.
>It will cheapen their "value"
>while increasing their "price"..... and
>increase the points logjam!
>
>Zeke


Very well put Zeke. I have followed this site for years and have only recently chimed in. I have always liked your comments.
Its just too bad that in years to come many will die with unused points. I'm sure as of now it hasn't been a big issue, but as those who are standing in line now for tags grow older I foresee many passing before they draw. My intent of this thread was to address this issue. "The logjam" may clear sooner than we think. I've lost two friends recently, who left this life without drawing a LE tag. One was 70, the other 30. My thoughts were not that a youth would jump in front of the line but stand in their place.
Thank you for your input.

Justin

 

[JMO]

>Does anyone receiving money from grandpa
>affect me. No not
>in the least. Not
>even close to a double
>standard. The points that
>I have, have a calculation
>with them that tell me
>when I should be in
>the drawing for that hunt.
> If the game changes
>along the way and Johnny
>gets his grandpa's points he
>goes to the front of
>the line. That does
>affect me, and all those
>that have points and would
>have a good idea when
>they can cash in those
>points. Bad idea.
>
>DZ

The way I see it gramps is already in line. If gramps is in front of you and dies Johnny stands in his place. Yes Johnny is in front of you now but you are still in the same place in line. If there was three people ahead of you before gramps died, there is still three people in front of you after he dies and passes his points to Johnny. Your odds never changed.

I suppose if you look at gramps death as your good fortune, and now there is one less in line. Then I guess it does affect you. It also tells me how selfish someone is.

 

[Nebsy]

>Does anyone receiving money from grandpa
>affect me. No not
>in the least.

You're kidding right? If you do not see how trust fund babies affect you... well..... I just give up.
Every 'Old Money' person... who never had to work for anything, never sacrificed.... that simply 'HAS' because they inherited it.... has a huge impact on the rest of us. Why do you think you can't buy an acre of farmground at a reasonable price.
But that is really not my point. My point is that WE accept it with the rest of society but not here.
Here's a hypothetical... if the purpose of the system is to encourage participation and interest in our biological resources... imagine how much more likely people would be to apply if they knew there points would not die with them. I have 15 OIL bison points. I'll draw soon. But I'm also approaching 40 years old. The statistics are clear that after (assuming) I harvest a bison... I will be DONE with OIL hunts. Statistically I will never draw another OIL permit again.
SO.
.
.
Why apply?
UDWR.......provide the incentive and you'll continue to get my application. Continue to get my support. Continue to get my mighty dollar.
To be honest. I'll play the damned Utah lottery anyway. Because I am desperate like every other damned Utah hunter to try and receive an opportunity that is rare and VALUABLE!

OR..
UDWR could start/continue(in some situations) managing BIOLOGICALLY instead of FINANCIALLY and POLITICALLY and create a sustainable resource that just might meet the demands.

 

[WapitiBob]

If he gets grandpa's points and loses his own, fine. Adding to his pile is absurd.

 

[JMO]

>If he gets grandpa's points and
>loses his own, fine. Adding
>to his pile is absurd.
>


I agree

 

[Zeke]

>If he gets grandpa's points and
>loses his own, fine. Adding
>to his pile is absurd.
>

This would give a whole new meaning to the phrase "I'd kill for a good hunting tag" LOL

Zeke

 

[dz]

Wow did I step on some toes. Does everyone who inherits a dime do bad with it? I thought we were talking about adding gramps points to Johnny's to jump to the front of the line. Even so I still think I'm against the transfer of any points. I've never inherited a dime so I guess I wouldn't know, but I hope you can ask my kids in 30 or 40 years. I hope to buy up a great hunting ranch and have it self sufficient on a trust so it doesn't cost the family a dime. Then they can all come hunt and you guys can be pissed at them. I think it won't be in your great state of Utah so you will have to bash them over the net.

 

[grizzly]

Even though my grandpa is sitting on a lifetime worth of points and I could have them if I wanted, I still do not support point transfer.

The reason that points are so valuable that people consider "point/tag transfer" is because of point creep. If we pass laws like this, point creep will get dramatically worse as there will be no attrition, or old people dying without using their points.

The severity of point creep will increase exponentially. Terrible idea for our youth.

I'd rather see the decimation of points altogether than inheritance of points. I think it would be better in the long run.

 

[klbzdad]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-13 AT 09:51PM (MST)[p]I've read that some of you are comparing the transfer of wealth to the transfer of a public trust (points for tags). Are we to believe that the hard work someone does for a lifetime to amass wealth and property is the same as paying $10.00 a year (which goes to wildlife conservation) for a "CHANCE" to hunt? Something here is off a bit.

 

[sled_guy]

I'd like to see them do something like give seniors a certain number of tags that they are eligible to draw like they do the youth. My neighbor's father died last year before he drew his tag... 1 shy of max points. I look at what he did over all those years, getting 3 sons and a dozen grandsons hooked on hunting, keeping the family tradition of hunting going strong and what that means to hunting's future here in Utah and I think it would have been good if 10% or 20% of the tags had been allocated to over 65 applicants or whatever.

sled_guy

 

[Nebsy]

They all ready give 50% of the tags to the 'OLDER' hunters. 1/2 of the permits go to max points holders. Last time I checked they were not the 12 year old's........
or the 30 year old's for that matter.

 

[Zim]

We need LESS entitlements, not more.

That is the problem. Every special interest group wants to change the sytem to favor them, at the expense of someone else, who then wants an entitlement to fix their problem. So on and so forth. It never ends.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & the SFW Dislike Club

 

[JMO]

>We need LESS entitlements, not more.
>
>
>That is the problem. Every
>special interest group wants to
>change the sytem to favor
>them, at the expense of
>someone else, who then wants
>an entitlement to fix their
>problem. So on and
>so forth. It never
>ends.
>
>***********************************
>Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club,
>NRA, UWC & the SFW
>Dislike Club

 

[JMO]

>We need LESS entitlements, not more.
>
>
>That is the problem. Every
>special interest group wants to
>change the sytem to favor
>them, at the expense of
>someone else, who then wants
>an entitlement to fix their
>problem. So on and
>so forth. It never
>ends.
>
>***********************************
>Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club,
>NRA, UWC & the SFW
>Dislike Club


Who is the special interest group that you are referring to ? The deceased that would be able to give a gift to a youth, or is it the youth that you depise. Come on this has nothing to do with any special interest group. YOU are the one especially interested in one thing and that is yourself. This could be a good thing if thought out properly. The person benefiting is a youth under the age 18 who is a intermediate family member. He is not jumping in front of the line he is standing in a loved ones place that has passed away. He could not combine his points and jump all the way to the front.

 

[elklvr]

This is a bad idea!

How do you determine which one of your kids or grandkids get the points?

The only way a kid or new hunter has a chance to draw a tag is if us old guys die or can not hunt any longer, and get out of their way.

The system is set up to give the older hunters a "better" chance to have a quality hunt before they can no longer hunt. It is not a equity system, that you are buying an investment, and able to pass that investment on to a loved one. Each year, each one of your bonus points give you one more chance to draw. So the older the point the more it has worked for you.

Passing on points, based on, you have purchased them, is not a sound argument. We all purchase items that work for their intended use, but will not have any value once we pass on. We go to movies, sporting events, dinners ect... and we get enjoyment out of that, but we can not pass that to our loved ones.

I have 15 elk points in Colorado, and the only way I will ever see the tag I am applying for is either the herd grows, and more hunters are given tags, or the guys in front of me fall on a hardship, or death. Just think if the 50 guys in front of me gave their points to somebody with fewer points, then I would never see the tag I have been chasing. Sounds selfish, but it is fact. Now lets say I was able to pass those points to my loved ones. How do I say son A, I love you more than Son B. Go on this hunt, and don't worry about your brother, he will understand.

Look at the odds! The only way younger or new hunters will ever draw is, either luck, or guys getting out of the game, with their points and making the way for those behind them.

 

[Zim]

>Who is the special interest group
>that you are referring to
>? The deceased that would
>be able to give a
>gift to a youth, or
>is it the youth
>that you depise. Come on
>this has nothing to do
>with any special interest group.
>YOU are the one especially
>interested in one thing and
>that is yourself. This could
>be a good thing if
>thought out properly. The person
>benefiting is a youth under
>the age 18 who is
>a intermediate family member. He
>is not jumping in front
>of the line he is
>standing in a loved ones
>place that has passed away.
>He could not combine his
>points and jump all the
>way to the front.

I don't despise anyone. I have 3 sons myself, and nearing 20 points in many states. I would stand to benefit a lot by giving my sons my points, but I don't think that is fair at all to the folks behind me who have waited. And I am free to burn my points every year. It is my choice to wait in most of these cases other than sheep. If I pass away before I can use them, I consider my past fees a conservation donation. I knew the rules before I bought in. And the other people with no kids knew the rules before buying in.

We already have:
Outfitter
Youth
Wealthy
Landowner
Terminally Ill
Handicapped
Resident

Why not add poor people and give them tags free when they pick up their gov't cheese?

There are too many entitlements.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & the SFW Dislike Club

 

[Zeke]

I must be low on blood-sugar, or he's making perfect sense, because I'm agreeing with everything Zim is saying!

He's hit the nail on the head. Too many kids feel totally entitled nowadays, as do lots of "special" interest groups. Why push the kids to the head of the line with gramps points? They'll already get there with his money!

I'm one of the older dudes and I'll die with lots of points...as it SHOULD be.

Zeke

PS: there's a real chance (absolute probability) of exploitation of the system with any kind of transfer!

 

[Deerlove]

"get there with his money" lol I wish I could say that!

 

[JMO]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-13 AT 05:12PM (MST)[p]Zim your second post on the subject makes a very good argument. I still like the idea, and think it could work. I worry that the 20 years you have waited may turn into 40 for the next generation. Only time tell. I agree that too many are given things they haven't earned. This world would be a much better place if there was less handouts and more hard work.
I don't see it as a handout but as a opportunity for a youth to go experience a quality hunt once before they are 50 years old.

You did bring up great points though. I also noticed you're no longer a "Hater" you're now a disliker. Maybe someday you'll even become a member

Have a good evening.

 

[Zim]

What would be very good would be an entitlement for guys over 50 with over 15 points, 2 bad knees and a trick back. Maybe double their points or something.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & the SFW Dislike Club

 

[Zeke]

I'll be 60 this hunting season and I can tell you it's not the end of the world if a guy has to wait a few decades for a great permit. There's lots of hunting to do in the mean while
I should be hunting moose this year and possibly a sheep with my son and it didn't happen by chance (or gift). It took lots of time and dedication. The draws are set up to eventually reward those who really want to go and will pay some dues (whatever that means to you).
Call it "stand in his place" or "jump to the front of the line" but it's just another entitlement and will eliminate attrition and open the system up to fraud.
Zeke

 

[Trammer]

I am uncomfortable with the state profiting from the bonus point monstrosity that it has created and that is what happens when people lose their points to forfeiture. I think the state should be required to at least partially reimburse people who forfeit points upon death. The family ought to be able to transfer half of their points to a direct family member heir(s), provided it does not put them in a top tier or maximum point bracket or reimburse the family half the cost of the points including any unused license fees required to obtain the points...people shouldnt be allowed to jump to the head of the line....The overall pool would benefit from a depletion of points....The State shouldnt be allowed to profit from forfeiture...also heirs should be allowed to inherit some value from a loved ones points.... Our kids could use some help getting points because they realistically are not going to draw out on anything until they apply for 30 years in row.

 

[cannonball]

I was told the transfer of bonus point to a youngster or a disabled person was just made into Utah law. Can anyone verify the facts and if so expand on what the law contains.

 

[grizzly]

The bill was passed. Search SB0061 on legislature.utah.gov.

Grizzly

PS. Tristate, please be an adult and respect my wishes that you do not respond to any of my posts. I, in turn, will do you the courtesy of not responding to any of yours. I simply do not wish to converse with you.

 

[Abiggerfish2fry]

I am in the hospital right now watching my father die! And after reading this! I just remembered that I have been buying elk points for him for years and now they are just going to be tossed in a few days! That's wrong!


Don't drink and call your Girlfriend at night!!!!!!

 

[JMO]

>I am in the hospital right
>now watching my father die!
>And after reading this!
>I just remembered that I
>have been buying elk points
>for him for years and
>now they are just going
>to be tossed in a
>few days! That's wrong!
>
>
>Don't drink and call your Girlfriend
>at night!!!!!!


I'm sorry to hear what you are going through. My family went through the same thing, that is why I started this thread. I do believe transferring points to a child, or gandchild under the age of 18 would be a good thing. The points would not be added to ones previous points, they would forfeit them before inheriting.

I believe senate bill 0061 that was passed does not allow the transfer of points after the point holder passes away.

 

[Abiggerfish2fry]

Thanks JMO!


Don't drink and call your Girlfriend at night!!!!!!

 

[cannonball]

The way I read the new law is that the giver is required to be within shouting distance of the givee of the inheritance hunting tag. Is that not correct?

 

[grizzly]

>The way I read the new
>law is that the giver
>is required to be within
>shouting distance of the givee
>of the inheritance hunting tag.
> Is that not correct?
>


That is how I understand it.

Grizzly

PS. Tristate, please be an adult and respect my wishes that you do not respond to any of my posts. I, in turn, will do you the courtesy of not responding to any of yours. I simply do not wish to converse with you.

 

[Zim]

>The bill was passed. Search
>SB0061 on legislature.utah.gov.

If so, wondering who now wears the crown......land of entitlement......New Mexico or Utah?

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club

 

[JMO]

>>The bill was passed. Search
>>SB0061 on legislature.utah.gov.
>
>If so, wondering who now wears
>the crown......land of entitlement......New Mexico
>or Utah?
>
>***********************************
>Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club,
>NRA, UWC & DP Hate
>Club


Did you read SB0061? It is different then what this thread suggests. Transferring a tag due to an ailment is different than transferring bonus points after death. No one is entitled to anything. If the possessor of the tag chooses not to transfer his tag he is not obligated to do so. The bill states that each case will be looked at individually to determine if it meets the criteria stated. If the tag possessor chooses to gift the tag how would that be an entitlement. I don't believe the term entitlement applies to this situation. That is my opinion.