interesting discussion
- Thread starter NeMont
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T
TFinalshot
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nemont, i think over the past 15 years our economy has started looking more like a ponsie scheme than an economy based on capital. . .
That said, it reminded me of the story that i'm sure you remember me telling in a post two years ago about building fence.
I purchased a load of "t" posts and got them home and found out that they were made over seas. . . I just about chit. I cant figure out how we can import basically raw steel in the form of a stake that we drive in the ground, from overseas cheaper than we could make the posts here in the US. At $3.50 each or whatever they were, it amazed me that we could not produce them here for that price.
Heck, they dont even have their own ore in korea and china, and fuel prices and shipping still made it cheaper for us to import the posts than to make them here. . . amazing. . .
Dont anyone go crying around about import taxes either. . . that wont fly, it's all relative. . .
www.tonybynum.com
"Roadless areas, in general, represent some of the best fish and wildlife habitat on public lands. The bad news is that there is nothing positive about a road where fish and wildlife habitat are concerned -- absolutely nothing." (B&C Professor, Jack Ward Thomas, Fair Chase, Fall 2005, p.10).
That said, it reminded me of the story that i'm sure you remember me telling in a post two years ago about building fence.
I purchased a load of "t" posts and got them home and found out that they were made over seas. . . I just about chit. I cant figure out how we can import basically raw steel in the form of a stake that we drive in the ground, from overseas cheaper than we could make the posts here in the US. At $3.50 each or whatever they were, it amazed me that we could not produce them here for that price.
Heck, they dont even have their own ore in korea and china, and fuel prices and shipping still made it cheaper for us to import the posts than to make them here. . . amazing. . .
Dont anyone go crying around about import taxes either. . . that wont fly, it's all relative. . .
www.tonybynum.com
"Roadless areas, in general, represent some of the best fish and wildlife habitat on public lands. The bad news is that there is nothing positive about a road where fish and wildlife habitat are concerned -- absolutely nothing." (B&C Professor, Jack Ward Thomas, Fair Chase, Fall 2005, p.10).
NeMont
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T,
I remember the story. Why do you think they produce them overseas? Don't tell me that labor costs are the only reason.
Do you agree with Peter Schiff on this? It is interesting listening to the discussion of Capital, which everyone always thinks means money but there is more to Capital then just money.
Have you read any Peter Schiff, Jim Rogers, Mark Faber or Max Keiser?
Nemont
I remember the story. Why do you think they produce them overseas? Don't tell me that labor costs are the only reason.
Do you agree with Peter Schiff on this? It is interesting listening to the discussion of Capital, which everyone always thinks means money but there is more to Capital then just money.
Have you read any Peter Schiff, Jim Rogers, Mark Faber or Max Keiser?
Nemont
he has a lot of good points, but many are exaggerated, like most pointmaker opinions are, the shipping of these "huge heavy swing sets" is not that expensive, huge cargo ships that carry ten thousand semitruck size shipping containers are common, many are powered by cheap bunker fuel, and the markets and deregulation are not the answer to all our problems, important as they are, too much belief in short term profit models, is the reason we have a gas guzzling auto industry, and a ruined banking industry, total deregulation,and competition is not an option to solve the health care mess, and without things like the FDA, cancer alley would be on everybodys block.
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huntindude
Guest
He has some good points, but he misses some.
First off there's lower wages for Americans, then there's the $80 a month it would take to get where we need to be, who here would go for that? then there are some of the regulations, all regulations aren't bad, have you seen China? Nemont would you go for a swing set factory in Ennis paying workers $80 a month and dumping anything they can't sell including lead paint residue into the Madison?
We as Americans have grown to like a higher standard of living than the Chinese, to compete with them we have to live like them. to say we can beat them just because we're smarter is pretty ignorant. we can do better, but we'll never compete and hold onto our standard of living, to say otherwise is just foolish.
First off there's lower wages for Americans, then there's the $80 a month it would take to get where we need to be, who here would go for that? then there are some of the regulations, all regulations aren't bad, have you seen China? Nemont would you go for a swing set factory in Ennis paying workers $80 a month and dumping anything they can't sell including lead paint residue into the Madison?
We as Americans have grown to like a higher standard of living than the Chinese, to compete with them we have to live like them. to say we can beat them just because we're smarter is pretty ignorant. we can do better, but we'll never compete and hold onto our standard of living, to say otherwise is just foolish.
AZStickman
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LAST EDITED ON Mar-06-09 AT 10:35AM (MST)[p]That's is a very interesting clip. The comments about capitol hit home. Not only are the Chinese gaining capitol but in many cases they are getting it for pennies on the dollar from failed American businesses. Case in point; I made a living for 28 years manufacturing circuit boards. Between 2000 and 2005 80% of the circuit board shops in this country shut down. I would get flyers for auctions at least twice a week and when we would attend the auctions who do you think wound up buying most of the equipment. If you guessed the Chinese you get a cupee doll. Not only are the jobs that we held here being filled by Chinese workers but the capitol used to produce those products have been discounted and shipped out with with it.
The pendulum will eventually swing as China's lack of environmental and safety regulations and the inevitable desire of the people to share the wealth will begin to drive wages up, but there such a huge gap we will never see it in our lifetime by just sitting back and letting things run their course.
I'm all for leveling the field with tariffs on imports and heavy decentives for American companies manufacturing offshore and shipping their products back into the US.
Environmental and Safety regulations should not be an option,they should be mandatory no matter what country is producing the products and if they can't bring their regulations up to world class standards they should be penalized in import taxes to the tune of a 2x factor for the financial benefit they gained.....Terry
The pendulum will eventually swing as China's lack of environmental and safety regulations and the inevitable desire of the people to share the wealth will begin to drive wages up, but there such a huge gap we will never see it in our lifetime by just sitting back and letting things run their course.
I'm all for leveling the field with tariffs on imports and heavy decentives for American companies manufacturing offshore and shipping their products back into the US.
Environmental and Safety regulations should not be an option,they should be mandatory no matter what country is producing the products and if they can't bring their regulations up to world class standards they should be penalized in import taxes to the tune of a 2x factor for the financial benefit they gained.....Terry
H
huntindude
Guest
For once we agree on something.
Even our own navy was caught contracting their new uniforms out to a Chinese company, I mean com'on now.
Even our own navy was caught contracting their new uniforms out to a Chinese company, I mean com'on now.
NeMont
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HD,
Our life style is set to decline because it is unsustainable. The costs of labor will come down in this country regardless of how much money the government prints or how many trillions are spent propping up failed businesses.
We will never stand up China in the coming years because they control our economic future. In a single day China could reduce the value of our dollars by over 50%. Don't give me this crap that they are as dependent on us as we are on them?
That we have became used to a certain lifestyle is true the problem is that it is almost all on borrowed money and the government solutions is to borrow and spend more.
In the long run the only way it is going to end is with a massive reduction in our quality and style of living.
It is not just labor costs that make us uncompetitive, our government is anti capitalist. The Chinese are the best capitalist in the world right now. That is why the money is there because captital will always find the most friendly enviroment in which to grow. Our country is not friendly to capital, capital comes here and it is taxed and regulated to death.
Nemont
Our life style is set to decline because it is unsustainable. The costs of labor will come down in this country regardless of how much money the government prints or how many trillions are spent propping up failed businesses.
We will never stand up China in the coming years because they control our economic future. In a single day China could reduce the value of our dollars by over 50%. Don't give me this crap that they are as dependent on us as we are on them?
That we have became used to a certain lifestyle is true the problem is that it is almost all on borrowed money and the government solutions is to borrow and spend more.
In the long run the only way it is going to end is with a massive reduction in our quality and style of living.
It is not just labor costs that make us uncompetitive, our government is anti capitalist. The Chinese are the best capitalist in the world right now. That is why the money is there because captital will always find the most friendly enviroment in which to grow. Our country is not friendly to capital, capital comes here and it is taxed and regulated to death.
Nemont
H
huntindude
Guest
When did I ever say China needed us?
So since China is the ultimate capitolist we should strive to be and live like them? you go ahead , I'll ride this horse into the ground before I'll accept that. China is a 3rd world dump with little human rights, we may get there but I'm not going to ever advocate for it.
So since China is the ultimate capitolist we should strive to be and live like them? you go ahead , I'll ride this horse into the ground before I'll accept that. China is a 3rd world dump with little human rights, we may get there but I'm not going to ever advocate for it.
NeMont
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LAST EDITED ON Mar-06-09 AT 12:23PM (MST)[p]
Don't put words in my mouth, I said it is inevitable that our standard of living is going to go down. Simple as that, also I didn't say the Chinese were the "Ultimate capitalist", I said they are better capitalist then we are currently.
Why is all the capital flowing to them?
Throughout history capital has flowed to where ever it can get the best returns, irregardless of government manipulation, decrees or outright laws banning the flow of capital. It always goes to where it can be most efficiently harnessed and used.
We are the largest debtor nation in history, we have pi$$ed away our advantages and therefore our capital is leaving to find a higher rate of return. When capital, even human capital, is utilized in the U.S. it is either taxed or regulated far more then in China.
I am an American first but I cannot deny facts, you have to look at facts. The Chinese are better capitalist then we are. Bury your head in the sand but they are going to be over here stripping assets at even greater rates.
Throughout history capital has always flowed to where it is most welcomed, I cannot change that.
Nemont
Don't put words in my mouth, I said it is inevitable that our standard of living is going to go down. Simple as that, also I didn't say the Chinese were the "Ultimate capitalist", I said they are better capitalist then we are currently.
Why is all the capital flowing to them?
Throughout history capital has flowed to where ever it can get the best returns, irregardless of government manipulation, decrees or outright laws banning the flow of capital. It always goes to where it can be most efficiently harnessed and used.
We are the largest debtor nation in history, we have pi$$ed away our advantages and therefore our capital is leaving to find a higher rate of return. When capital, even human capital, is utilized in the U.S. it is either taxed or regulated far more then in China.
I am an American first but I cannot deny facts, you have to look at facts. The Chinese are better capitalist then we are. Bury your head in the sand but they are going to be over here stripping assets at even greater rates.
Throughout history capital has always flowed to where it is most welcomed, I cannot change that.
Nemont
H
huntindude
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I'm not arguing they are better capitolist, they are. how do you propose we compete with them? this isn't a card game it's our way of life.
I'm saying if we're going to have a no rules game with them we're going to lose, you say the same thing, I'm saying we better not do that and you're saying we have no choice. if it isn't alrerady too late it soon will be, are you willing to level the playing feild or not? if your answer is no then your predictions are 100% correct. I'm not really ok with that but it seems you are.
I'm saying if we're going to have a no rules game with them we're going to lose, you say the same thing, I'm saying we better not do that and you're saying we have no choice. if it isn't alrerady too late it soon will be, are you willing to level the playing feild or not? if your answer is no then your predictions are 100% correct. I'm not really ok with that but it seems you are.
NeMont
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LAST EDITED ON Mar-06-09 AT 12:24PM (MST)[p]HD,
Explain what leveling the playing field looks like and how that is going to stem the flow of capital the the Chinese or to any country who is more friendly to capital then we are?
If leveling the playing field means you are going to slap tariffs on everything made in China, I say fine but understand what that means for our economy. There is not a single politician, except perhaps Ron Paul, that will allow the pain that such actions would entail.
I wish the world would stop lending us the money and we endure the pain of what that will entail. Our phony economy needs a huge correction so that we can again produce in this country.
I want our country to succeed, I want America to be a great nation forever. It is difficult to be a great nation when we are broke.
I cannot deny the facts and what my head tells me. Our standard of living is going to go down because we have lived beyond our means for so long. There is a price to pay for all the borrowed money and that bill is coming due.
I don't want our country to fail but that doesn't mean I should blindly believe the rhetoric that, "We are best country in the world". We don't act like the best country in the world all the time.
Nemont
Explain what leveling the playing field looks like and how that is going to stem the flow of capital the the Chinese or to any country who is more friendly to capital then we are?
If leveling the playing field means you are going to slap tariffs on everything made in China, I say fine but understand what that means for our economy. There is not a single politician, except perhaps Ron Paul, that will allow the pain that such actions would entail.
I wish the world would stop lending us the money and we endure the pain of what that will entail. Our phony economy needs a huge correction so that we can again produce in this country.
I want our country to succeed, I want America to be a great nation forever. It is difficult to be a great nation when we are broke.
I cannot deny the facts and what my head tells me. Our standard of living is going to go down because we have lived beyond our means for so long. There is a price to pay for all the borrowed money and that bill is coming due.
I don't want our country to fail but that doesn't mean I should blindly believe the rhetoric that, "We are best country in the world". We don't act like the best country in the world all the time.
Nemont
H
huntindude
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I wrote Ron Paul in.
Yes we should impose any trade restrictions that benifit us. yes it will cause a mess and we'd have to make major adjustments.
The one thing we do seem to agree on is we're screwed, but your way offers no chance.
Yes we should impose any trade restrictions that benifit us. yes it will cause a mess and we'd have to make major adjustments.
The one thing we do seem to agree on is we're screwed, but your way offers no chance.
NeMont
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LAST EDITED ON Mar-06-09 AT 12:26PM (MST)[p]and yours has zero hope of ever passing because our Politicians will not ever do a thing to antogonize China. They have been bought and paid for by Trillions of dollars. Watch what happens when we hold a bond auction and nobody shows up to buy them.
Nemont
Nemont
H
huntindude
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I said I agree with you we're screwed, I'd just like to go down kicking.
The deeper in debt we become to these nations the harder it will be to break free, I agree it may be too late but there will never be a better time to try it. what do we have to lose? if we run in fear of anyone loaning us money to the point even saying buy American is taboo we're already sunk.
Have it your way I can't change it, and I'll survive fine. I'm just glad I'm not a kid looking for the American dream today, they've been screwed over and I feel even worse knowing we're going to just roll over. I feel very fortunate to have been been given this nation behind the greatest generation, and not ours.
The deeper in debt we become to these nations the harder it will be to break free, I agree it may be too late but there will never be a better time to try it. what do we have to lose? if we run in fear of anyone loaning us money to the point even saying buy American is taboo we're already sunk.
Have it your way I can't change it, and I'll survive fine. I'm just glad I'm not a kid looking for the American dream today, they've been screwed over and I feel even worse knowing we're going to just roll over. I feel very fortunate to have been been given this nation behind the greatest generation, and not ours.
NeMont
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LAST EDITED ON Mar-06-09 AT 04:30PM (MST)[p]I don't want it "my way". I am not the ones running to China to borrow Trillions more on the backs of my kids and grand kids. It is the politicians in Washington DC who are doing this to me. I have to deal in facts and reality, I have been poor and don't want to be poor again. Therefore what I am seeing with my own eye and understanding with my own heads tells me that I must preserve my money, capital and wealth by moving most of it offshore somewhere. Canada has been getting more of my money lately. My heart says America is still great and will remain great, my eyes and head are telling me something completely different.
The world's capital: Money, machinery and human capital is leaving our country because we are unfriendly to that capital. We make it more difficult to do business here then in Asia.
I would agree tomorrow to stop borrowing money from abroad, concentrate all our countries energies on producing what we need right here in this country and if we can't produce it then we procure via mutaully beneficial trade or go without it.
I know there is not a single leader in Washington who could allow this to happen because they are afraid of seeing the civil unrest it would cause. Nearly every move by the current administration has been wrong and is making the problems of our country worse. GWB got the ball rolling and Obama is going to finish it off.
I have three kids, don't you think I want them to prosper and succeed, I simply cannot deny facts and I have no power to get ahold of Geithner and cry, "Save me, save me, save me". He and Obama don't care about saving me. To be saved by this administration you have have spent more then you make, be upside down in your house or be to big to fail. It was no different during the Bush years either.
So don't think I am just rolling over and saying to the Chinese come take America, the Politicians in Washington have already sold America to them. The Chinese are just coming to occupy or take what they already own. I wish it wasn't that way but it is.
I will survive also because no matter how bad it gets I will work to take care of my family.
Do this, Name a single person elected to a leadership position that would dare antagonize China. Hillary has already made a trip over there beggin the Chinese to keep buying our debt. The Obama administration is going to borrow Trillions more then the Bushies ever thought of borrowing. So live in your fantasy world where Captain America will come in and save the day and fight for truth, justice and the American way. I am going to control the things I can control, continue to believe what my eyes and head are telling me and keep my heart warm for the good old days.
Nemont
The world's capital: Money, machinery and human capital is leaving our country because we are unfriendly to that capital. We make it more difficult to do business here then in Asia.
I would agree tomorrow to stop borrowing money from abroad, concentrate all our countries energies on producing what we need right here in this country and if we can't produce it then we procure via mutaully beneficial trade or go without it.
I know there is not a single leader in Washington who could allow this to happen because they are afraid of seeing the civil unrest it would cause. Nearly every move by the current administration has been wrong and is making the problems of our country worse. GWB got the ball rolling and Obama is going to finish it off.
I have three kids, don't you think I want them to prosper and succeed, I simply cannot deny facts and I have no power to get ahold of Geithner and cry, "Save me, save me, save me". He and Obama don't care about saving me. To be saved by this administration you have have spent more then you make, be upside down in your house or be to big to fail. It was no different during the Bush years either.
So don't think I am just rolling over and saying to the Chinese come take America, the Politicians in Washington have already sold America to them. The Chinese are just coming to occupy or take what they already own. I wish it wasn't that way but it is.
I will survive also because no matter how bad it gets I will work to take care of my family.
Do this, Name a single person elected to a leadership position that would dare antagonize China. Hillary has already made a trip over there beggin the Chinese to keep buying our debt. The Obama administration is going to borrow Trillions more then the Bushies ever thought of borrowing. So live in your fantasy world where Captain America will come in and save the day and fight for truth, justice and the American way. I am going to control the things I can control, continue to believe what my eyes and head are telling me and keep my heart warm for the good old days.
Nemont
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huntindude
Guest
I don't expect anyone to save the day, but if we ( the US ) become more self sufficient MAYBE we can save ourselves.
We've been way too depenant on China for way too long, I doubt any politian will step on their toes, this goes for any idiot that thinks we'll cross China on the issue with Iran as well.
I realize my protectionism and buy home grown idea of Americans turning to American made products isn't going to happen. still it's as good of idea as I've heard and I think it could work, the reality is not enough Americans care and even if they did they'd slip off to Wall Mart after dark and buy Chinese crap when nobody was looking, save that 2 cents at any cost. check out how Japan operates, they place huge import duties on imports and use that money to subsidize domestic production, keep that money at home and in circulation. US rice growers would crap their pants if they could get the price domestic producers get in Japan, the difference is the japs are smarter and more patriotic than we are, and they'll pick our bones because of it.
We've been way too depenant on China for way too long, I doubt any politian will step on their toes, this goes for any idiot that thinks we'll cross China on the issue with Iran as well.
I realize my protectionism and buy home grown idea of Americans turning to American made products isn't going to happen. still it's as good of idea as I've heard and I think it could work, the reality is not enough Americans care and even if they did they'd slip off to Wall Mart after dark and buy Chinese crap when nobody was looking, save that 2 cents at any cost. check out how Japan operates, they place huge import duties on imports and use that money to subsidize domestic production, keep that money at home and in circulation. US rice growers would crap their pants if they could get the price domestic producers get in Japan, the difference is the japs are smarter and more patriotic than we are, and they'll pick our bones because of it.
NeMont
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LAST EDITED ON Mar-07-09 AT 08:31AM (MST)[p]If you think Japan has this thing figured out you aren't paying attention.
What does it cost Japanese consumers for their government to basically embargo rice?
Why has Japans economic growth been stifled since the 1990's and the lost decade is turning into two lost decades?
What happened in the U.S. with the passage of the Smoot-Hawley Act?
The Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act (sometimes known as the (Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act)[1] was an act signed into law on June 17, 1930, that raised U.S. tariffs on over 20,000 imported goods to record levels. In the United States 1,028 economists signed a petition against this legislation, and after it was passed, many countries retaliated with their own increased tariffs on U.S. goods, and American exports and imports plunged by more than half. In the opinion of most economists, the Smoot-Hawley Act was a catalyst for the severe reduction in U.S.-European trade from its high in 1929 to its depressed levels of 1932 that accompanied the start of the Great Depression.
The Japanese model is good for rice farmers but it screws everybody else in the process including more efficient American Rice farmers.
Nope, I don't look to Japan for a solution. The Japanese are not patriotic they are a racist culture treat non Japanese as second class citizens. Kind of a big difference.
Nemont
What does it cost Japanese consumers for their government to basically embargo rice?
Why has Japans economic growth been stifled since the 1990's and the lost decade is turning into two lost decades?
What happened in the U.S. with the passage of the Smoot-Hawley Act?
The Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act (sometimes known as the (Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act)[1] was an act signed into law on June 17, 1930, that raised U.S. tariffs on over 20,000 imported goods to record levels. In the United States 1,028 economists signed a petition against this legislation, and after it was passed, many countries retaliated with their own increased tariffs on U.S. goods, and American exports and imports plunged by more than half. In the opinion of most economists, the Smoot-Hawley Act was a catalyst for the severe reduction in U.S.-European trade from its high in 1929 to its depressed levels of 1932 that accompanied the start of the Great Depression.
The Japanese model is good for rice farmers but it screws everybody else in the process including more efficient American Rice farmers.
Nope, I don't look to Japan for a solution. The Japanese are not patriotic they are a racist culture treat non Japanese as second class citizens. Kind of a big difference.
Nemont
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huntindude
Guest
And we Americans don't think we're better than the rest of the world? Japan has nothing on us.
So Japan has some problems, who doesn't, but would you say we've run our economy and managed our debt better or worse than Japan has? we can take lessons from a drunk sailor, and that started WAY before Obama.
So Japan has some problems, who doesn't, but would you say we've run our economy and managed our debt better or worse than Japan has? we can take lessons from a drunk sailor, and that started WAY before Obama.
T
TFinalshot
Guest
I think that Wall Street, for at least the past 10 years really has been nothing but one big ponsie scheme. . .
AZStickman
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LAST EDITED ON Mar-07-09 AT 04:55PM (MST)[p]"That we have became used to a certain lifestyle is true the problem is that it is almost all on borrowed money and the government solutions is to borrow and spend more.
In the long run the only way it is going to end is with a massive reduction in our quality and style of living."
It is true we have certain standards that raise the cost of doing business in the US. Labor laws that protect our workers,Safety laws that mandate every employee has a right to work in an environment free from hazards, Environmental laws that provide clean air, water and soil for all of us to enjoy, none of this is cheap.
Rather than throwing in the towell, and saying we have to regress, the burden should be put on the third world countries profiting by exploiting the workforce in their countries while destroying the environment in which they live. Anyone who watched the Olympics saw what a joke the air quality is in China. I can assure you their rivers are some of the most polluted in the world and their waste disposal practices are a ticking time bomb.
We have set the bar in this country that should be a model for basic quality of life. This is a new time and age and tariffs can be used as a stimulus to level the playing field. It can be a tiered approach. Tier I tariffs would be the highest level for countries not attempting to achieve basic goals for worker rights, safety and environmental protection. As they achieve a level of progress in these areas they would be placed into tier II, III, IV until they are on par with world class standards.
Just throwing in the towell and saying we have to "regress and deal with it" might be the easiest thing to do but it doesn't address the basic issues of the competitive inequities that are creating favorable conditions for off shoring and importing, over manufacturing products in our own country.
And American countries choosing to take advantage of these weaker labor, Safety and Environmental laws should have a seperate stiffer decentive applied to them and the products the manufacture off shore and ship back in.There's no excuse for what they are doing.....Terry
In the long run the only way it is going to end is with a massive reduction in our quality and style of living."
It is true we have certain standards that raise the cost of doing business in the US. Labor laws that protect our workers,Safety laws that mandate every employee has a right to work in an environment free from hazards, Environmental laws that provide clean air, water and soil for all of us to enjoy, none of this is cheap.
Rather than throwing in the towell, and saying we have to regress, the burden should be put on the third world countries profiting by exploiting the workforce in their countries while destroying the environment in which they live. Anyone who watched the Olympics saw what a joke the air quality is in China. I can assure you their rivers are some of the most polluted in the world and their waste disposal practices are a ticking time bomb.
We have set the bar in this country that should be a model for basic quality of life. This is a new time and age and tariffs can be used as a stimulus to level the playing field. It can be a tiered approach. Tier I tariffs would be the highest level for countries not attempting to achieve basic goals for worker rights, safety and environmental protection. As they achieve a level of progress in these areas they would be placed into tier II, III, IV until they are on par with world class standards.
Just throwing in the towell and saying we have to "regress and deal with it" might be the easiest thing to do but it doesn't address the basic issues of the competitive inequities that are creating favorable conditions for off shoring and importing, over manufacturing products in our own country.
And American countries choosing to take advantage of these weaker labor, Safety and Environmental laws should have a seperate stiffer decentive applied to them and the products the manufacture off shore and ship back in.There's no excuse for what they are doing.....Terry
AZStickman
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hdude wrote:
"For once we agree on something"
Actually you and I have agreed on this more than once....
I don't agree with Piper on much but he and I have identical views on record books and hunting ethics.
Terry
"For once we agree on something"
Actually you and I have agreed on this more than once....
I don't agree with Piper on much but he and I have identical views on record books and hunting ethics.
Terry
LAST EDITED ON Mar-07-09 AT 06:48PM (MST)[p]AZstickman-I agree with you on that, although I don't think people that work hard and make a modest but decent living should have to accept a big loss in their standard of living, we reside in a large country thats full of natural resources, therefore I don't see why average Americans should have a lower standard of living than the majority of people from European countrys, but it does look like after a decade or two of extravagance were going to have to "pay the piper".
NeMont
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AZStickman,
So you are saying that we should have tariffs in order to make sure that our standard of living doesn't fall.
You understand that us telling the rest of the world how to live is not only arrogant it is unworkable. We live the most unsustainable lifestyle in the world. The average size of our homes, the amount of energy, food, clothing you name it we consume it in unsustainable amount.
Perhaps you haven't travled overseas to see how other live. Many times they don't have the luxury of worry about the environment because they are too poor to worry about it. Often it is American companies and almost always the American consumer who is reaping the lion share of the benefits off of third world countries labor force.
Tell you what, take you example to any reputable economist and see what kind of reaction you get.
I am glad there are not many people who think that such a plan would be a good way to work our way out of this. Anytime people start with the, "It is different this time", I know that I can quit reading because I can rest assured it is not different.
Nemont
So you are saying that we should have tariffs in order to make sure that our standard of living doesn't fall.
You understand that us telling the rest of the world how to live is not only arrogant it is unworkable. We live the most unsustainable lifestyle in the world. The average size of our homes, the amount of energy, food, clothing you name it we consume it in unsustainable amount.
Perhaps you haven't travled overseas to see how other live. Many times they don't have the luxury of worry about the environment because they are too poor to worry about it. Often it is American companies and almost always the American consumer who is reaping the lion share of the benefits off of third world countries labor force.
Tell you what, take you example to any reputable economist and see what kind of reaction you get.
I am glad there are not many people who think that such a plan would be a good way to work our way out of this. Anytime people start with the, "It is different this time", I know that I can quit reading because I can rest assured it is not different.
Nemont
AZStickman
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"You understand that us telling the rest of the world how to live is not only arrogant it is unworkable."
It's not arrogant at all. The rest of the world can live however they want but if they want to do business here they had better be prepared to pay or anti up, "Pay to Play". The European union seems to have no problem imposing their standards on us. They have ROHS and REACH legislation and there are international standards for both Safety and Environmental programs ISO 14000 and ISO 18000. I fail to see requiring adherance to those standards as arrogant.
Any monies gained by tariffs to China can be credited back to China to pay off our debt.
I'm glad you hold todays economists in such high esteem. I am having a hard time believing they know their butts from a hole in the ground.... Terry
It's not arrogant at all. The rest of the world can live however they want but if they want to do business here they had better be prepared to pay or anti up, "Pay to Play". The European union seems to have no problem imposing their standards on us. They have ROHS and REACH legislation and there are international standards for both Safety and Environmental programs ISO 14000 and ISO 18000. I fail to see requiring adherance to those standards as arrogant.
Any monies gained by tariffs to China can be credited back to China to pay off our debt.
I'm glad you hold todays economists in such high esteem. I am having a hard time believing they know their butts from a hole in the ground.... Terry
AZStickman
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"Perhaps you haven't travled overseas to see how other live. Many times they don't have the luxury of worry about the environment because they are too poor to worry about it"
Hard to buy this line of thinking wehen we are talking about China who was able to spend billions of Dollars on the last Summer Olympics, has loaned the US trillions of dollars and is now buying up housing in this country using gains from trade inequity. As their largest consumer at what point to we leverage our buying power to create equity??
"Often it is American companies and almost always the American consumer who is reaping the lion share of the benefits off of third world countries labor force."
I agree with you totally on this and have stated American companies profiting oversees should have an even higher level of decentive than the foreign countries importing here without adhering to basic "International" standards.
Terry
Hard to buy this line of thinking wehen we are talking about China who was able to spend billions of Dollars on the last Summer Olympics, has loaned the US trillions of dollars and is now buying up housing in this country using gains from trade inequity. As their largest consumer at what point to we leverage our buying power to create equity??
"Often it is American companies and almost always the American consumer who is reaping the lion share of the benefits off of third world countries labor force."
I agree with you totally on this and have stated American companies profiting oversees should have an even higher level of decentive than the foreign countries importing here without adhering to basic "International" standards.
Terry
NeMont
Long Time Member
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There many very smart economist today, the problem is that there are too many stupid Americans and a lot of the dumber ones get elected to office.
I am going to bow out of this thread. There is no sense in my discussing this further. You guys believe as you wish and I will do the same.
We are right now providing security in Afghanistan so that a Chinese company can develop the largest copper deposit around. We are never going to step om China's toes as long as we need them more then they need us.
Good luck and god speed in getting anything approaching what you are advocating. It would ignite a trade war and all we have to fight a trade war is an model 94 30-30 and the Chinese have brand new stae of the art laser guided bombs.
Nemont
I am going to bow out of this thread. There is no sense in my discussing this further. You guys believe as you wish and I will do the same.
We are right now providing security in Afghanistan so that a Chinese company can develop the largest copper deposit around. We are never going to step om China's toes as long as we need them more then they need us.
Good luck and god speed in getting anything approaching what you are advocating. It would ignite a trade war and all we have to fight a trade war is an model 94 30-30 and the Chinese have brand new stae of the art laser guided bombs.
Nemont
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huntindude
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Mar-08-09 AT 10:33AM (MST)[p]Nemont I can't argue that we aren't under China's thumb because we are, but if we don't meake a break for it now when will we?
On this subject, the GI Joes are always saying we should get tough with Iran, or better yet give Israel the money to do it for us, as if that would leave us out of it. do you agree our dependance on China will also impact our ability to dominate world order as we've enjoyed in the past? would China loan us the money to attack Iran? I'm not saying we need to but isn't our national security being compromised by our dependance as well as our economy? China needs Iran more than they need us, the Chinese and Russians are selling Iran the tech they need for a nuclear program, I think we're in sit down and shut up mode unless we can get back on our own two feet.
Stickman and Piper this isn't the place to do it but stickman said something about record books and ethics, is there a thread on that? I'm a B&C O/M and in a large part because of my respect for their ethics and education on ethics. I can't say that for the other organizations but I hope you don't consider B&C anything less than an advocate for the highest degree of ethics.
On this subject, the GI Joes are always saying we should get tough with Iran, or better yet give Israel the money to do it for us, as if that would leave us out of it. do you agree our dependance on China will also impact our ability to dominate world order as we've enjoyed in the past? would China loan us the money to attack Iran? I'm not saying we need to but isn't our national security being compromised by our dependance as well as our economy? China needs Iran more than they need us, the Chinese and Russians are selling Iran the tech they need for a nuclear program, I think we're in sit down and shut up mode unless we can get back on our own two feet.
Stickman and Piper this isn't the place to do it but stickman said something about record books and ethics, is there a thread on that? I'm a B&C O/M and in a large part because of my respect for their ethics and education on ethics. I can't say that for the other organizations but I hope you don't consider B&C anything less than an advocate for the highest degree of ethics.
AZStickman
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Fair enough NE.... hdude.. The thread I referenced was on the campfire quite a while back... Piper and I both agreed the record books had come a long way from where they were started and are a direct link to some of the things we see as distasteful in hunting today like finder fees, posse hunting etc. In the beginning the books promoted fair chase, which they still do and that is a good thing, but they also had an emphasis on honoring the animal and not the hunter. The hunters names were not even listed. It would be good to see it get back to that again and kill this chase for inches that is making hunting a competitive sport that has lost the values I was taught and hold to this day..... Like this discussion what would be good to see probably isn't based on what can or will actually happen and it's a shame... Terry
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huntindude
Guest
I see, I'm a little biased but B&C is the best voice for hunter ethics we have of any organization. SCI, well , like I said I'm biased so I won't go there.
Probably the best truth in this thread is what you said about what can or will happen.
Probably the best truth in this thread is what you said about what can or will happen.
AZStickman
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No debate there.... If it weren't for the Teddy bear story and the commitment of a few dedicated men to conserve our wildlife and protect it from subsistence and commercial hunting, we probably wouldn't be having these debates on a hunting forum today...... Terry
