Interesting Wolf Facts

slamdunk

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I know this topic is about as old as Obamacare and equally worthless to try and discuss it's negative impacts, but it's still fun.

Elk Populations in the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd :

Year Elk Population*

1994 19,045 (year before wolf reintroduction)

1995 16,791 (reintroduction began)

1996 no count taken

1997 no count taken

1998 11,742

1999 14,538 (prior to late season elk hunt)

2000 13, 400 (prior to late season elk hunt)

2001 11,969

2002-03 9,215

2004 8,335

2005 9,545

2006 6,588

2007 6,738

2008 6,279

2009 6,070

2010 4,635

2011 4,174

2012 3,915

(*via U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service)

Pretty scary numbers, especially considering they didn't even show numbers of estimated calf loss percentages that would dramatically impact the overall numbers.

"Smoke A Pack A Day"









avatar-1.png
 
Now let's do a Utah Deer Count!

An Accurate Count!

Not an Over-Guesstimation by the DWR!













I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
 
According to some idiots they blame the numbers on drought and we been having some really good moisture.

Im all for wolf tags but shooting some here and there is not going to cut it. I think taking out a whole pack would save more elk......

So if a pack needs 2-4 elk a week to eat. Times 52 weeks in a year. WOW that's a lot of elk for one pack. Times how many packs in Wyoming??????????? OF course no one knows how many packs since they cant seem to count right.


Like I said the Game and fish is out to manage people not wildlife.......
 
Hey Bessy, up here on the Cache we are doing a deer count the end of the month.

We are counting bucks, does, yearlings and fawns.

Just a little pressure from one of the local hunting groups got it done. Course, we'll see what they do with the info we get them.

I don't think it'll take too long to count the whole unit, we've got a lot of volunteers, and not very many deer.
 
Lets not forget the experts just spent millions determining the root cause of the drop in Yellowstone's elk numbers is directly associated with the lower numbers of cutthroat trout in Yellowstone lake... What a "F---'N" JOKE!!!

Oh, and they can not explain why some of the old grizzlies are not going into hibernation??? "It's because those bears eat damn good following the carnage left behind by the packs"

The sad part is a bunch of good people tried to stop this wolf debacle in it's tracks...But people like Buzz H said the elk herd was unnatural and bloated we needed some predation. "You should be so proud Buzz"!!!!

I wonder what experts like Buzz will say in another ten years??? "I'm sure it will be a habitat problem or something"...SMOKE AND MIRRORS

All I can say is in my backyard... the wolves will NOT destroy my hunting heritage or my kids hunting future. One wolf at a time or one pack at a time!!! Thank God Wyoming held to their guns on the "Predator Zone"!!!
 
Pretty sad. All I can see is all the money that big game hunters brought to the state going down the tube. Don't see much $$$ that the wolfs are putting into the communities. Just my two cents. Right or wrong.
 
It's a stark fact that things will never be the same.
19000 down to 3900? That's pretty sad!

And to think, we actually biotch about the only organized group who are trying hard to fix the problem and people delight in speculating their demise.

We are a weird bunch of disorganized people.

Zeke
 
Looks to me that they already know Wolves kill allot of Elk, They even claim that Wolves are leaving the park to hunt ELK and are getting smoked doing so. This info and story are old news but if they knew it then, and continue to study it now, my question is why? are they looking for a different outcome or do they just want to keep getting the Fed's money so they can have their camping trip in the park and all the neat toys payed for.
http://news.sciencemag.org/people-e...radio-collared-yellowstone-national-park-wolf
 
At that rate they will have to feed the wolves before long. It's not that far fetched.


I don't make the soup, I just stir it.
 
>At that rate they will have
>to feed the wolves before
>long. It's not that far
>fetched.
>

That's the #1 job of Fish&Game Departments, RELF, and all the other organizations that support elk, deer, moose, etc. now. Any game left over is for hunters.

Eel
 
I am so sick of this crap. Wolves are an essential part of the eco-system. I am all for hunting them, but regulating them is what should be done, not just all out extermination.

You hunters are so pissed that the elk that used to be in one area for years are now no longer there, you have to blame something, blame the wolf for killing them all. How about the elk moved because of the wolves. Elk used to be long migration animals, years when there were no wolves they adapted to being more of a homebody type of animal. Stay around the same area. Now that the wolves are back, they are getting back to what they used to be.

Its a cycle. The elk will make a comeback, but only if they stop free grazing cattle all over and building houses in prime elk territory. Oh... and some of you so called hunters should really look at the tracks of so called Wolves. A few years ago some sheep were killed in the Pinedale area. Wolves were blamed, what do you think was the real culprit. Coyotes killed some and a pack of dogs killed them. So quick to judge the wolf as a ruthless killer. They are not.
 
CV Camera Hunter,

Some of us are equally sick of the crap that many eco-elites spew. They repeat what they read on wolf lover websites. How about some independent investigation and thought on your part. Any fool can regurgitate what they read on some pro wolf website. Those websites put forth lies to raise money for the cause and those that administer it. Have you talked to any biologists from Montana Game and Fish or Wyoming Game and Fish? They know what is going on with elk populations in and around YNP. That would be a good starting point. Ask them why about every elk unit around YNP has gone to limited quota hunting in the last years.

The decline in the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd has been continuous since 1995. The key number is the cow/calf ratio for that herd. When it drops below a certain level, the elk population is no longer sustainable. That means more elk are dying each year than can be replaced through reproduction and survival. When the population is no longer sustainable, there cannot be a comeback. Look into it and you might learn something.

Wolves can be ruthless killers. They do not always eat what they kill. They do not always just kill the weak and infirm. I live and recreate in wolf country in NW Wyoming. I have witnessed the change in the elk herds for the last 14 years. I know what I have seen from my own observations and not from the agendas of those that exploit the situation for financial gain.

just sayin... mh
 
CV_Camera

Your living in a concrete dream world... To think a Canadian Timber wolf is an essential part of the eco-system in the western united states. They, meaning the "wolf" is the ruthless killer you speak of. I have followed these animals for weeks witnessing their carnage first hand. One pack killed enough in those weeks to feed other predators (lions or bears) for months...

The elk that were in yellowstone did not simply migrate out and stay. Those elk are dead! Go to the lookout below Mt Washburn and take a spotting scope, I used to go there and see 50-100 bull elk. Today you can see the racks and bone piles of 20 or more dead bulls. Those are just the one you can see...

Bringing the Canadian Timber wolf to Yellowstone to replace the wolf that once roamed the area is like brining Canadian Thistle to a meadow that use to be inhabited with the local Elk Thistle... If you have ever spent any time around Canadian Thistle you would realize you just introduced an invasive non native WEED! OUT of CONTROL WEED!!

So look at us not as ruthless killers, we are just restoring balance and killing the weeds...
 
CV CAMERA.......YOU REALLY NEED TO "THINK" WITH YOUR HEAD, AND NOT WITH YOUR HEART!!! WE KNOW THE WOLVES ARE OUT OF CONTROL, AND ARE THE 24/7 KILLING CULPRITS. .............YD.
 
>
> BOUGHT MY LAST
>ELK TAG IN WYOMING 10
>YEARS AGO, .........YD.


That's a shame because you are missing out on some fantastic elk hunting.
 
Looking at the timeline, I am surprised that we have not heard the cry "IT'S BUSH'S FAULT." Maybe if we get Hillary in the next term and Nancy Pelosi as the Secretary of the Department of Ag and Harry Reid in as Secretary of Interior, they can fix this mess that all falls on the shoulders of the Republicans. :)
 
>Go to Yellowstone and try to
>find a Moose.
>
>1984 4300
>Today 128

Mike,
They must have just migrated out of the area (as wolf turds)!
The anti's and wolf lovers are getting their way and we're left sucking hind-tit.
I'm just glad we get to do a little wolf "control" but it's not enough.
Zeke
 
I have done my research. I study both ends of the spectrum. Good and Bad, wolves are an essential part of the ecosystem. You can't tell me that the decline of elk in Utah is because of wolves?? Its not.

Like I have said, I think that WE for so long were so used to ELK being in the same place, then something comes and disrupts that, its all of a sudden they are being killed at an alarming rate, when in fact, they are probably just moving to new areas and going back to the way they used to be.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-15-13 AT 10:21AM (MST)[p]So, the elk are moving to new areas? Has anybody found out where that is? Maybe underground? Up in the forest canopy?

Wolves used to be a vital part of the ecosystem, before humans. So did disease and starvation. Do you really want to go back to that? It's now our responsibility to manage wildlife for our benefit.

Eel
 
If a hunter cant find an elk to shoot in Montana, Idaho, or Wyoming...they arent worth a chit at hunting elk. These are the good old days for elk hunting.

Thats a fact.

Many peoples lack of ambition, dedication, and hunting skill is pawned off on the wolves.

Lame.
 
That may very we'll be true Buzz yet it's hard to deny the fact that the wolves are having a negative impact.
That's a fact too!
Zeke
 
Lots of things impact elk...hunters, cats, bears, vehicles, poachers, development, roads, weeds,...the sky is the gdamn limit.

Funny though that a thread titled "wolf facts" is filled with a bunch of things that are well beyond anything factual.

Each wolf pack kills 2-4 elk per week? Where does that happen? Fantasyland?

"I can glass 20 dead bulls from one spot"...another great piece of mythology.

I'll gladly have a discussion about elk, what impacts them, even strategy to try to solve some of those impacts.

The tinfoil hat crowd that flocks to the wolf threads...they dont want to have that discussion. Largely because they cant bring a single fact to the table, dont understand the issue, and lack common sense.
 
I'm not naive enough to think that elk have no impact from anything but wolves. However you wish to spin the wolf situation, the fact is they are a negative influence on herd numbers. Period.
Your comments about the "tinfoil hat crowd" only shows your distain for other people.
You certainly could add much to a conversation yet you want to poop on people before you even start.
Carry on,
Zeke
 
>If a hunter cant find an
>elk to shoot in Montana,
>Idaho, or Wyoming...they arent worth
>a chit at hunting elk.
>These are the good old
>days for elk hunting.
>
>Thats a fact.
>
>Many peoples lack of ambition, dedication,
>and hunting skill is pawned
>off on the wolves.
>
>Lame.

+1

People are idiots. The people that are never notching tags are the ones always bitching about the wolves.

I didn't shoot an elk this year, although I saw dozens of elk in my OTC unit in the heart of the Sawtooths.

I wish there were no wolves, since these are not the native ones, but bitching about them isn't gonna do #####, so I just keep reaping the rewards of how good the hunting is in Idaho right now and enjoying my time out there.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-15-13 AT 12:31PM (MST)[p]Buzz,
Should we really believe you that wolves are not a problem for our elk herds? That is like Obama saying you can keep your doctor and insurance period...
Were not blind and stupid. Many of us spend a lot of hours in the field.
You might be a better hunter than average, but your not as special as you think you are.

Carry on.
 
I don't think anyone disputes that wolves kill a fair share of elk. However, it is far from wiping out Wyoming's elk herd. Too few want to accept the reality that they are here to stay and deal with it. The wolves are being managed. They are not roaming the state killing off every elk, moose and deer. The new reality is wolves will take elk and the numbers will not be the same as they once were. Find me one state in the country where animal populations are the same as they were in 1995. They change, sometimes more sometimes less, deal with the change and the reality. Stop complaining and go hunt something. You will be much happier. If anyone thinks they are going to SSS their way to getting rid of wolves or thinks that elk hunting is ruined in Wyoming is as blind as Buzz suggests.
 
Zeke,

Point out in any post I've made on wolves where I said they have no impact...

I'll save you the trouble, its not there.

The thing that the tinfoil hat crowd is failing to understand is that they arent going to be able to eliminate wolves. It wont happen...ever.

Since you're smarter than the people that claim they can see 20 dead bulls from one spot, and that wolves eat 2-4 elk per week, where should our time, efforts, and money be spent to mitigate the multitude of things that impact elk populations?

Should we spend time beating the "kill every wolf drum"? How successful are hunters going to be in getting that done?

Do you think its a good strategy?

I can tell you that its a waste of effort, time, money, and not even worthy of consideration. The State of Utah just pi$$ed away 800K that wont save a single elk there or result in one wolf being killed. They'd of been better off fitting calf elk for pajamas with that 800K to keep them warm in the winter.

The only thing worth any effort in regard to wolves is for sportsmen to legally manage them the same way we do with bears and lions. BTW, thats already been done, and with no thanks to the tinfoil hat wearing, kill-every-wolf-on-site crowd. As per always, the lunatic fringe hide in the shadows and cant even pry their arse off the couch to attend a meeting or to get involved.

How about the other issues that keep our elk herds low? Is it worth revisiting Montanas EMP? If we change population objects from the ridiculously low numbers in that document to numbers based on science, carrying capacity, etc. will that help elk numbers?

Changing MT's population objectives found in the EMP will save more elk than wolves will ever kill...and increase the populations more than killing every wolf in the State...FACT.

Personally, I'd rather invest my time in things that I have a chance to change...demanding that every wolf be shot isnt one of them.

Carry on with the fantasy...
 
I didn't see any wolves yet this year. I did see some fresh tracks, while we packed out a elk my friend shot. We also saw a ton of elk this year and last in both OTC and LE areas here in the epicenter of wolf country, central Idaho.

If we keep banging on the wolves the elk will continue to become more plentiful. At least we can now and won't have to worry about becoming another Yellowstone herd. I wonder how the Fed's think about the lack of tourism due to the lack of the one main draw to the park, critters.
 
It is true that we won't be able to kill every wolf and totally eliminate them.

It is true that wolves, have an extremely detrimental effect on an areas ungulate herds. To not recognize this is as silly an idea as thinking we can kill every wolf in the woods.

I personally don't believe that wolves are able to kill as many elk, deer, moose as some believe. For a couple reasons, #1 there aren't as many animals to kill #2, the remaining animals are learning how to avoid wolves. I personally watched 3 deer and 2 moose catch the scent of a pack of 9 wolves, and run immediately in the other direction.

One thing that doesn't get brought up is the stress on the ungulate herds that the wolves do inflict, leading to lower body weights, smaller animals, less fat reserves etc......due to the herds needing to constantly be on the alert instead of feeding freely.

I have spent a lot of time hunting wolves in units 44-43 in Idaho. Was even lucky enough to kill one. But in all the times I've gone after them, I can tell you that wolves are not around every tree, nor on every ridge killing everything they can. They travel huge distances almost daily, searching, a lot of times in small groups of 3, sometimes all alone. I believe they hunt and kill whatever they can, from mice, to rabbits, to elk, to even pulling hibernating black bears from their dens and eating them.

Do I believe there is room for them in our ecosystem. Not anymore.

Is someone a lazy, worthless hunter because they can't find elk in wolf country? I don't think so. What is appalling is that a fellow hunter would berate another hunter over this issue?

I wonder if at the end of the day, we are our own worst enemies?
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-15-13 AT 05:14PM (MST)[p]so if the wolves don't eat elk then what the hell are they eating????????????

Come up to the spring creek oil field in meetetsee and ONE can witness what a pack of wolves can do for damage.....


Why did JAKE CLARK shut his late season elk camp down???????
{ don't know jake clark, he operates mule days and is on of the biggest donors to the RMEF........


Do wolves have a impact? YES

Are they responsible for 80% decline of elk? YES--- a hell of good chunk of that but not all of that 80%

should we kill them all???????????? That wont happen but I would like to see a couple of packs taken out. instead of shooting one here and one there it would be a bigger benefit to wipe out a pack..






In Wyoming why did they make the sunlight/Crandall areas into LQ tags??????what use to be a general hunt until a high wolf number

Why did area 55 go from general tags to only 50 permits???-ouch-ouch-ouch---ouch


Lets do a test, plant wolves in Nevada, Arizona and New Mexico and lets sit back and watch millions of dollars go away and elk decline.......
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-15-13 AT 05:10PM (MST)[p]One thing that doesn't get brought up is the stress on the ungulate herds that the wolves do inflict, leading to lower body weights, smaller animals, less fat reserves etc......due to the herds needing to constantly be on the alert instead of feeding freely.

Really?

If that were really true, there wouldnt be a single prey species left on the planet.

Did elk, deer, pronghorn, moose, etc. not evolve with predators? How did they survive the stress prior to people "saving" them from predators?

How did deer and elk in Idaho survive the stress put on them by lions? Hunting season? Bears? Coyotes?

WOW!
 
nfh,

You lack the ability to comprehend and your reading skills are suspect.

Nobody is claiming wolves dont kill elk or have an impact...just not to the imaginary extent you claim they do. Provide one piece of peer-reviewed science that says a pack of wolves kills 2-4 elk per week, year after year.

You cant...because you pulled that "fact" straight out of thin air and it just isnt true.

Like I've already said, you want to have a legitimate, reasonable discussion, no problem.

You want to keep talking a bunch of chit...have fun with the dudes in tinfoil hats.

Tag numbers fluctuating and LQ areas should be part of any proper management strategy...herds are dynamic and management decisions should reflect that.

Why did the entire Platte River drainage go to LQ only for mule deer???

Wolves?
 
I cant answer the mule deer question. I don't go to the platte river..

So if you get a pack of 6-10 wolves what are they going to eat???? In an area with out buffalo....... Last I knew they don't eat salads....

Come on buzzy come up to the northwest and sit down and have a visit with the local game-warden on what he gets to see first hand......
 
Buzz one question,as you seem to have all the answers. Why are there less than 4000 Elk and the moose are all but gone in Yellowstone???
 
>I have done my research. I
>study both ends of the
>spectrum. Good and Bad, wolves
>are an essential part of
>the ecosystem. You can't
>tell me that the decline
>of elk in Utah is
>because of wolves?? Its not.
>
>
>Like I have said, I think
>that WE for so long
>were so used to ELK
>being in the same place,
>then something comes and disrupts
>that, its all of a
>sudden they are being killed
>at an alarming rate, when
>in fact, they are probably
>just moving to new areas
>and going back to the
>way they used to be.
>

Weak statement........who is claiming declining numbers of elk due to wolves in Utah? That's hilarious and shows show's how much research you've done......
The research has already been done, I posted it as the topic of this thread! Canadian wolves have never been native here, you may want to re-think your statements and save yourself some embarrassment.

avatar-1.png
 
I'm not too familiar with this BUZZ fella.

But he seems like a real f*****g a*****e.

Anybody else get that impression?
 
nfh,

I've talked with game wardens in the NW corner of Wyoming...just did about 4 days ago. Pointed out a nice 6 point bull and 4 cows to him that I glassed up just prior to running into him. He was going to tell a friend of his about the bull that was hunting in the area.

Thank you for not providing any credible source for your "facts"...on par with what I expected.

brdhuntr,

Lots of reasons for the declines in elk in Yellowstone. Increased cat numbers, increased bear numbers (both griz and black), wolves, plant succession, slow reaction by the MTFWP with late cow tags, the age of the elk herd in Yellowstone about the time of wolf reintroduction, drought, couple bad winters, GY elk herds history of huge population swings, outfitter/hunter pressure, elk distribution, harboring, Montanas EMP, etc. etc. etc.

Moose populations are declining in most all of the West, including areas that dont have significant predator issues. Yellowstone is experiencing many of the same disease and habitat issues as those areas without predation, so of course the problem is compounded there with higher predator numbers.

You do realize that the elk herd in Yellowstone has been lower than it currently is, prior to wolf reintroduction???
 
smitty,

I get that a lot whenever the tough questions are asked...in particular those that the tinfoil hat crowd cant answer.

I see you skipped the questions.
 
Slamdunk,

Have YOU read the link you provided?

Its pretty clear the RMEF is stating the same things I have in this thread.

They arent blaming the decline in elk on wolves only...not by a long shot.

Apparently you missed that part?
 
SMITTY..........POST 40 .....YES !!!! IF WE QUIT FEEDING BUZZ, HE WILL LEAVE. A REAL BAG OF WIND !!!!...............YD.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-15-13 AT 07:41PM (MST)[p]What is there is prove, ummmmmmm elk and moose declines.

Why do we have to base it off some info from some wolf lover that goes out records wolf numbers are low and they need more time to expand? Do a report in your favor you justify your job and keep doing more studies........ I cant stand reading the reports in the paper. ITs horrible info.




Come on Buzz lets put some wolves in your area and see what happens...

Seriously how can you favor large amounts of wolves. You cant put huge numbers of wolves and humans together........
 
So Buzz are you saying that the next 18 years or so will be a number climbing elk herd since it next the bottom now look at 1994 numbers are those numbers even close what they are today or what the land can still carry. 1 and 4 cows now that's a helluva start.
Now they just have to make it until spring and if you get a 100% birth rate you will have a herd of 9.

Never argue with a Bull$hitter(Buzz) he will bury in BS faster then you can shovel.



"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
+1 nfh

You can't introduce wolves back into the wild in this day and age and in the lower 48.

I laugh at the ignorance of wolf lovers when I hear them say "they'll restore the eco-system." By what, wiping out the big game herds we've spent a hundred years building and managing. Someone above said not to use your heart but your head. That is very true, wolf lovers will never listen to facts and statistics. No point in arguing with them, we just keep fighting to get rid of these Canadian wolves.

Since the white man came here and built all over this land, there is no more eco-system with wolves involved. Like eelgrass said, its up to us to manage the wildlife, not a wolf from Canada. I like hunting and want to hunt until I die and want my kids to hunt also.

The only good wolf in the lower 48 is a dead wolf. Keep them up north where they came from.
 
GEEZUS PUNK!

You've STIRRED it this time!

I'm with SMUT!

We are Our Own Worst Enemy/Predator!

The Wolves in TARDville don't/won't stand a Chance!

They'd have to beat the DWR to the Game Herds!

Ain't gonna Happen!










I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
 
Buzz,

You need to go to the pullout below Mt Washburn with your spotter before you open your big mouth. There is even a bull laying in the open that is clearly over the 360 B&C mark. I'm sure he was one of the weak and sick of the herd... If you have trouble seeing them I would be glad to meet you there and point them out. My hunting and spotting skills might just be a little more acute than yours....

Your wrong about the number of kills per week, again. I followed a small pack for two weeks, those particular wolves killed 2 moose and 13 elk. They killed 4 cow elk in one night. Another night they killed 2 six point bulls side by side. Most of the time the wolves ate less then ten pounds of meat, off each animal. Sometimes they only killed and ate nothing. So don't for a second tell me their are no facts being talked about when it comes to kills per week. I realize you over educated types would not be able to keep the pace and keep up with a pack of wolves... Hence the lack of your peer reviewed science to look at. But don't worry that packs killing days are only history now.

Buzz, more and more people are waking up to you OBAMA TYPES...IT's LIE'S with SMOKE MIRRORS!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-15-13 AT 09:33PM (MST)[p]gator...can you get someone to translate your post into English?

nfh, you're just babbling now, bringing not one fact to any table.

Also to answer your remark:Come on Buzz lets put some wolves in your area and see what happens...

Heres what happens, Western Montana, wolf central. One day of hunting after an 11 hour drive...ran into 3 6 points and 2 rags in the same herd.

IMG_3291.JPG


Repeated the same the following year...had only 2 days to hunt and saw 22 brow-tine bulls in those 2 days.

Yep, the wolves ate all the elk.


wolfhunter,

I'll gladly meet you and have you show me the 20 dead bulls you can see from one spot. I'll even volunteer to hike up the hill and pack out that dead 360 bull. Name the time...I'll be there.

Feel free to keep that imagination fired up...its all you got.
 
You shot an elk in Montana, cool.
Not sure what that has to do with elk numbers and wolf impact on the herd.
Elk and moose decline in Idaho and Yellowstone is directly related to out of control wolf numbers.

If we do not fight against the expansion of wolves we are in trouble.
We do not need them.
I am glad we are hunting them now...but it is far too little.

Buzz you complain and attack people about facts...wake up.
 
me and Honey Pie took a drive around the park a couple weeks ago...we saw 4 elk, it was nice :)

seen plenty of bison, and bowhunt we seen a couple (literally!) of mooses


3991img_5203.jpg


little bull was buggin the crap out of her, and she wanted nothing to do with him...this was not in jellystone, but just north of Jackson at the north end of the refuge

The wolves appear to have made a significant impact on the elk from an "ignorant" outside perspective, regardless of what our dear ol Buzz chooses to pontificate about the situation
 
Buzz,

Mt Washburn is inside Yellowstone park (maybe you missed that in your reading comprehension), I realize you elitists run by a different set of rules and picking up the heads does not apply to you guys. That is the only reason the racks are in full view still to this day.... So I would love the chance to prove you wrong again, at your own game. Should we say June? Next spring?? We could at least hike out a photograph the big bull. That is if your not scared to hike in grizz country. Then we could drive around together and count the elk, you can show me first hand how Yellowstone is a better place now that over 16,000 elk are gone. I will bring my kid's you can explain to them how the wolf has improved the habitat and natural balance in an unnatural man made ecosystem. You can explain to them why seeing almost no animals in Yellowstone is better than it was before...
 
wolfhunter,

You should have let Buzz H pick up the dead head. I would have paid money to watch some drone from the NPS service arrest another drone from the USFS. LOL

I knew that Buzz would post at least one grip and grin photo of himself in this post. Anyone that doesn't agree with him wears a "tinfoil" hat, is full of "chit" or is a lousy hunter. His shtick is old but always predictable. He wants everyone to look at him. He craves the attention. He sees himself as the only smart person in the room. I would love to know who he claims to talk to at the Wyoming Game & Fish in NW Wyoming. The wardens I know are not happy with the wolf proliferation.

There are lots of good points raised by everyone on this issue. Buzz H is right about the fact that the wolves are likely here to stay. Most hunters are not happy about that but it is a fact. There are too many federal employees and eco-elite groups who have a financial stake in the proliferation of the wolf. There are also too many people floating around with some romantic notion about the wolf. If the wolf were to disappear in YNP, Doug Smith (the wolf expert)would have to go back to locating and counting beaver. We wouldn't want that to happen.

It will be interesting to see what the head count for 2013 will be in the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd. This last season was great for moisture. There was lots of feed in the backcountry. The stats should be out by February or March of 2014. Maybe the upswing in the elk population, that the wishful thinker's predict, will finally occur. I won't hold my breath unless the counters have been authorized to count dead heads for 2013.

The battle will continue to rage on for many years. just sayin...mh
 
To all you wolf lovers out there, we're not as stupid as you say. We know that lots of factors influence elk mortality. Same with humans, but that doesn't mean we're going to stop looking for a cure for cancer just because you like it. It certainly doesn't mean we'll stop complaining, so get over it.

Just like I'll turn in a poacher every chance I get, I'll turn in a wolf too. You don't have to like it.

Eel
 
I WOULD LOVE TO BUY BUZZ FOR WHAT HE'S WORTH, AND SELL HIM FOR WHAT HE THINKS HE'S WORTH !!!! CAN YOU SAY "PROFIT" ?????? .....................YD.
 
BUZZ.....where did I say all the decline was blamed solely on the wolves? I simply copied and pasted some facts of REAL biologists. Of course there are other factors that come into play, doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. We also have an explosion of grizzly bears, so much so that they are being delisted and hunted. If you do a little research, you'll quickly learn that the explosion of grizzly bears in YNP is being connected to the many left rotting and elk and buffalo carcasses left by the wasteful wolves. The bears are eating much better, conserving and storing WAY more calories from having to hunt themselves and are having triple cubs. "Free Handouts"!! The point of the article and my post was the FACT that since the reintroduction of the Canadian wolves into YNP, the elk numbers have dropped from 20,000 to 4000.
It certainly isn't from the introduction of noxious weeds!!



avatar-1.png
 
lets see proof with pictures.... also: how big was the pack? U do realize that they have to eat as well.
 
Wolfhunter,

I dont waste my time in YNP, game farms, or petting zoos... I wrongly assumed you'd actually be looking at a huntable population of elk. Should have known better.

Maybe thats why those that blame wolves for their lack of elk hunting success fail so miserably?

Scared of grizzly bears??? Not at all...shot these photos with a cheap 35mm with no zoom. This bear was in easy bow range, and not in YNP. One of 32 different grizzlies we saw in 3 days.

griz1.JPG


griz2.JPG


They die no differntly than elk...if you know how to kill elk.

tomsgriz..JPG




mightyhunter, the Warden I talked with last week was Benge Brown. He seemed like a pretty reasonable guy and we didnt discuss wolves, too busy looking at elk and swapping elk hunting stories...you know things that hunters usually talk about. Sorry that hunting pictures on a hunting site offend you. Perhaps do a google search of knitting sites...you wont have to look at those pesky hunting photos any longer.

BTW, the "wolf war" is only alive and well in your mind, and perhaps the minds of Ryan Benson and Don Peay. You cry about the "eco-elites" profiteering from the wolf issue, but remain silent about SFW bilking Utah taxpayers out of 800K. Havent read about the "eco-elites" ripping 800K from the State of Utah...you?

Finally, the States of WY, MT, WI, ID, etc. all have state control of wolves. If you and the do-nothing gang arent smart enough, or connected enough, to influence State wolf Management now...I dont know what to tell you. If you arent out hunting or trapping wolves, you're part of the problem.

I know how to make policy, how to enhance policy, and how to change policy. Been an active participant in that for a long time.
 
Slamdunk,

Why did you wait until post 59-60 to admit that other factors are negatively impacting the NY elk herd?

BTW, whats your plan to help address the multiple issues that are causing the elk decline in the NYEH?

You going to donate more money to the Peay/Benson sheep hunting fund?...excuse me, I meant wolf war fund.
 
>Slamdunk,
>
>Why did you wait until post
>59-60 to admit that other
>factors are negatively impacting the
>NY elk herd?
>
>BTW, whats your plan to help
>address the multiple issues that
>are causing the elk decline
>in the NYEH?
>
>You going to donate more money
>to the Peay/Benson sheep hunting
>fund?...excuse me, I meant wolf
>war fund.

It's simple......because I have more important things to do than sit here and monitor my thread.

As far as MY plans to help out? Well sir, there's not much I alone can do, nor do I have endless money to throw at high dollar organizations like the ones you mentioned. But I do what I can and support groups like the RMEF through basic memberships. I reside in Idaho and I WILL hunt wolves this winter and do my part in "conservation" if given the opportunity.
avatar-1.png
 
"Finally, the States of WY, MT, WI, ID, etc. all have state control of wolves. If you and the do-nothing gang arent smart enough, or connected enough, to influence State wolf Management now...I dont know what to tell you. If you arent out hunting or trapping wolves, you're part of the problem."

Nicely said, and spot on.......






avatar-1.png
 
What enough spin on it for you to understand.

ARE THE NUMBERS OF ELK TODAY CLIMBING BACK TOWARD THE 1994 NUMBERS.
Toss some more BS around I'm sure that some with stick somewhere.
Tell us all again how the wolf is helping are elk herds.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Gator, said,

What enough spin on it for you to understand

Translator...anyone?

ARE THE NUMBERS OF ELK TODAY CLIMBING BACK TOWARD THE 1994 NUMBERS.

Over-all elk numbers are higher today than in 1994 in most all the Western States. They'd have to decline in most areas of MT, ID, WY, CO, NM, AZ, etc. to "get back toward the 1994 numbers".

Toss some more BS around I'm sure that some with stick somewhere.

Translator...anyone? Maybe hooked on phonics?

Tell us all again how the wolf is helping are elk herds.

I never said wolves were helping "are" elk herds to start with so why would I want to tell you "again" something I never said once?

I do, however, understand your confusion with the written English Language...if only obviously.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-16-13 AT 12:05PM (MST)[p]>I have done my research. I
>study both ends of the
>spectrum. Good and Bad, wolves
>are an essential part of
>the ecosystem. You can't
>tell me that the decline
>of elk in Utah is
>because of wolves?? Its not.
>
>
>


except that the UT elk herd is at an all time high....?
 
Buzz,

I think I remember you from grade school! You were the kid always bragging about yourself to try to get friends. I see it turned out well for you. The pic of the bull you posted...that could be utah for all we know....

Sorry man this is the internet, a place where arguing is pointless.....
 
Bloodtracker,

When was the last time you found Western Larch in Utah?

You may be a blood tracker, but your ability to read sign is suspect.
 
BUZZ.....or anyone else interested, here are some FACTS on wolves impacting Idaho's elk herds and their own rapid expansions throughout the state.
It clearly states that the back country remote area elk herds are being decimated where hunter access to wolves are minimized. Would you call it irony that the remote areas that see less elk hunting pressure from Humans have declining elk numbers while the pack numbers are clearly and rapidly expanding??

http://wdfw.wa.gov/conservation/gray_wolf/july182013_presentations/idaho.pdf






avatar-1.png
 
Here's a GUARAN-F-N-TEE I will make You!

Wolves will not survive in TARDville!

Tell a TARD Not to Shoot Wolves & them Wolves are in BIG TROUBLE!

Anywhere from 5 to 7 Months worth of Big Game Hunts in TARDville each Year,them Wolves don't/won't stand a Chance!

I don't know 2 Hunters in the State that won't Swear on the Book of Mormon that they Thought it was a Big Coyote!:D:D:D













I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
 
Buzz H is shredding you rednecks to high heaven and back. No bias here, never met him.

Literally, none of you guys have responded with any educated, well written, cited facts. Seriously, go back and read your own posts, most of you are bringing knives to a gun fight.
 
Years ago I had the opportunity to write a paper on Wolves and the impact on game herds.

Since there were few in the US at the time....I evaluated Russia, particularly the Verkhoyansk region.

I was lucky enough to speak with many Russian Hunters, and Wildlife Employees.

I am not going to post all of the information, but here are some FACTS that I will share:

-Wolf populations at their peak became very aggressive, and would kill for fun. They even began hunting people. (go read about that)

-In Russia they increased and decreased with game populations, the country had NO game stability because of this. Huge spikes in Moose and Elk, followed by almost total extinction of the game animals. Wolves followed the same trend.

-All other factors for herd numbers were insignificant compared to the impact of predation, particularly wolf predation.

-They HATE Wolves!!! They do not create balance they create huge swings of population.

We have to continue the fight and keep them managed and in check. We already have way to many.

The original plan called for 250 in Idaho. We are now at ~2000 in Idaho and increasing.
If we do not fight that number will be 4000 shortly.

Shoot em, educate people, and keep at it!!!
 
Comparing wolves in remote regions of Russia with the Western United States????

Laffin'...
 
There is NOT One Place in Utah you could turn the Wolves Loose & Not have a Big Conflict!

BookCliffs was the Place they kinda decided to put them when it Rolls around!

GEEZUS!

Like the Game Herds Ain't already being Over Hunted in the Book Cliffs?

JFP!!!

I want a Big Coyote on My Wall!

I want a Big Coyote on My Wall!

I want a Big Coyote on My Wall!













I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
 










I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
 
>Buzz H is shredding you rednecks
>to high heaven and back.
>No bias here, never met
>him.
>
>Literally, none of you guys have
>responded with any educated, well
>written, cited facts. Seriously, go
>back and read your own
>posts, most of you are
>bringing knives to a gun
>fight.

"Shredding us"??
I have done nothing but post real facts from real biologists and game management, what FACTS has he shown?
He's calling me out on what MY plans are to help, what are HIS?
avatar-1.png
 
Buzz H,

I am not offended by hunting photos on a hunting website. What offends me is that you post grip and grin photos of yourself solely in an attempt to draw attention to yourself. The photos you post have little to do with hunting and the animals you harvest and more to do with your need for attention. You feed on it. You think the photos give you and your views credibility. I think hunting is a di** measuring contest for you. That is really kind of pathetic.

By the way I have never heard of Benge Brown before. I do know the local wardens in Cody (Birkenstock Boy)and Sunlight Crandall (Queen). Were you closer to Meeteetse or even further south?

I will google knitting sites if you agree to google narcissism and read what it says about you.

I share the same opinion that you do of SFW and BGF. Lots of folks are lining their pocket with money over the issue of wolf proliferation. It is a real cash cow for both sides of the issue.

just sayin...mh
 
And MightyHunter, makes the post of the week!

Great post, I agree with all parts of it.

Narcissist = Yes
SFW, BGF after our money = Yes
Buzz a doofuf = Yes (I added that one)
 
Buzz,

I think mightyhunter has you clearly pegged!! I agree with the d!ck measuring part, it's obvious you are attempting to prove something to yourself...Really Laughing HARD!!


twsnow18,

Of coarse Buzz is what you call "shredding" us regular folks or "rednecks", the USFS has wasted millions training him to eloquently lie and deceive the general public for 25 years. He certainly is good at what he does for a living. He has mastered his profession of peer reviewed smoksreen!! I am sure you two will have so much to talk about at your next Obama fund raiser together. You both have such a common thought processes with YOUR commander and chief... I could hit You, Buzz and Obama on the head with facts and it would not change your agenda's.

Facts are, a lot of good people are waking up to lie's your kind are spiting out regardless of how eloquently you sling them!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-16-13 AT 10:33PM (MST)[p]+1, 000, 000

Buzz loves to puff up his chest and say" hey look at me". His way is the only way B.S. makes me want to puke. Hey Buzz, quit sucking Obama's dic.k in the oral office!!! You make Monica Lewinsky look like a saint with your coc.k sucking sperm a grin lips! You are a jackass!
 
mightyhunter,

When you google those knitting sites...see what google comes up with when you type in hypocrit...or you can simply look in the mirror. You decide which.

I'll not apologize for my knowledge about the wolf issue, been dealing with it for a long time.

Good luck with your wolf war...you've already done so much to help and you're really having an impact on the eco-elites.
 
>Buzz H,
>
>Kind of a weak comeback.
>
>just sayin... mh

Not really. You are just offended that he did not buy into your immature bull chit and didn't care to take the time to respond to uneducated posts.

He never once said he loves wolves. I'm sure he would rather not have them on our landscape either. Can any of you rednecks provide a quote as to where he said he liked wolves?

What's funny is that the only people that have it out for the wolves and have the extremist attitude are the lazy that are never notching togs. They typically also spend more time bitchin' and sitting on the internet TRYING to offend fellow hunters.

The reason why he provided the grip and grin's was to show you that the hunting is still good and that you should be thankful for the opportunities you still have. Ya, the hunting might not be as good in some areas like the old days, but in some areas it's probably better.

Are most of you that are battling buzz even from Idaho, Wyoming or Montana? You can't be, because if you were, you would that know you could drive up to Garden Valley or Lowman with a spotting scope right now and pick out 100 elk in a morning in the HEART of wolf country. Not more than 25 miles from the original wolf release in 1996 where it all started!

I love how you guys have enough time in your days to make threads and pictures to try and offend him. Rather mature, the douche bags of Monster Muley's live on. Spend that time wolf hunting (so you would realize wolves are not behind every tree, I won't hold my breath for your wolf kill pic) or doing something productive with conservation groups, rather than sounding like white trash complaining on the internet and doing nothing for the herds.
 
twsnow18,

I am going to bet your not from Idaho, or at least you have no idea of the magnitude of loss Idaho has taken from the wolf. You are obviously drinking the koolaid from the pro wolf machine. The 100 elk left in Garden Valley Idaho are probably down by the houses for you to see because that is the safest place for them to live. Or the only place.

I spend a lot of time doing what I can to help pass on hunting to the next generation. I have donated money, time and lots of effort for the cause. I just believe to my core the biggest threat to my children being able to hunt like I have been blessed to is the liberal wolf machine. Not only the wolf, but the politics behind the wolf as well. I will fight to the bitter end to protect our hunting heritage. I will hunt wolves at every opportunity. I would be hunting wolves this weekend but our local pack is already been taken care of. I thought about going to Montana to complete my western wolf slam. Soon enough more wolves will move in here again.

As far as fighting with Buzz I have said this before; He could bring hunters together with his knowledge but instead he drives wedges between them. The confusing part with Buzz is loving elk like he claims and standing up for wolves, the only thing that makes sense to me is he must be getting paid by the wolf machine. Or I guess he might have been raise by wolves. But it's great to see people standing up for what they believe is right, even standing up with a little irreverence is good these days!!

We are just right about wolves and Buzz is wrong!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-18-13 AT 01:35PM (MST)[p]Born and raised in Idaho. In fact, I live there now and have never lived anywhere else.

I purchased the Sawtooth "B" rifle tag this year for elk. I'm not an expert hunter by any means and am still fairly green to the sport compared of some of you on the back 9 that grew up hunting.

All I know is that I drove up and hunted around Garden Valley, Lowman and Grandjean 4 separate times, each only 1 day trips. I saw elk every single time, and no, not just in town. No, there wasn't a 6 point behind every tree in every draw, but I saw plenty of huntable elk not on private land.

Now I'm not saying that the herds couldn't be in better shape, as there is definitely room to improve. But complaining about it enough to have an extremist attitude and cut down fellow hunters is not the way to fix things. Channel your negativity towards hunting wolves and then you fellas would have less to complain about.
 
WOW!!!

Buzz - Your a real piece of work. All of that rambling and not one piece of evidence or proof provided, other than a couple of pics and stories of what an amazing hunter you are. We will never be as manly and intelligent as you are. However, your responses are so eloquent I can't help but believe everything you type (sarcasm intended)! I think I actually puke in my mouth just a little each time I read one of your posts. Solution? Stop reading them. Done!

tsnow - If Buzz isn't driving a wedge between hunters with his elitist and holier than though attitude then I don't know what is! By the way, you really should go back and re-read your post (#86). A few words come to mind, such as: Hypocrite


"The problem with quotes on Internet Forums is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
 
By
>the way, you really should
>go back and re-read your
>post (#86). A few
>words come to mind, such
>as: Hypocrite

??

Ok, I just went back and re-read it, why am I a hypocrite??
 
OK - I will spell it out

"He never once said he loves wolves. I'm sure he would rather not have them on our landscape either. Can any of you rednecks provide a quote as to where he said he liked wolves?"

Can you provide one where he said he didn't? You are a redneck calling the rest of us rednecks.

"What's funny is that the only people that have it out for the wolves and have the extremist attitude are the lazy that are never notching togs. They typically also spend more time bitchin' and sitting on the internet TRYING to offend fellow hunters."

Kinda like you are in this post?

"Are most of you that are battling buzz even from Idaho, Wyoming or Montana? You can't be, because if you were, you would that know you could drive up to Garden Valley or Lowman with a spotting scope right now and pick out 100 elk in a morning in the HEART of wolf country. Not more than 25 miles from the original wolf release in 1996 where it all started!"

And this is proof of what?

"I love how you guys have enough time in your days to make threads and pictures to try and offend him. Rather mature, the douche bags of Monster Muley's live on. Spend that time wolf hunting (so you would realize wolves are not behind every tree, I won't hold my breath for your wolf kill pic) or doing something productive with conservation groups, rather than sounding like white trash complaining on the internet and doing nothing for the herds."

Do I have to explain this one, as you sit here typing posts sounding like white trash doing nothing to save our herds? I mean, if what you say is true then if your not out hunting wolves right now then you are part of the problem, right? Give me a break!

Just cause some guys show passion about a topic on a forum doesn't mean they are not neck deep in activities and actions supporting what they believe in.

And why do you care so much about this Buzz character anyway? Are you related or something? Do you know him or are you just infatuated with him cause of how intelligent he sounds?


"The problem with quotes on Internet Forums is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-18-13 AT 09:31PM (MST)[p]O_S_O_K...et al.

Just to clear up a few things.

I've been involved with the wolf issue for a long, long time. I've also talked at length with and met with many of the key players in the wolf issue. I lived in the epicenter of where the wolf issue started.

I'm not forced to guess about whats happened with this issue, unlike the Toby Bridges types who are posting on this thread. I lived it.

While many are still hung up on the "need" for the wolf reintroduction...theres really only 2 facts that matter in that whole debate:

1. It happened and it cant be reversed.

2. It simply sped up the inevitable, and undeniable fact, that wolves were going to repopulate the lower-48 with or without reintroduction.

Prior to wolf reintroduction...by at least a decade, there were already established packs in the South Fork and North Forks of the Flathead, the Rocky Mountain Front, and Ninemile areas of Montana. Those wolves were under full federal protection of the ESA. They were expanding, and there were very management options for anyone, including the Feds.

When wolf reintroduction was in its early stages, there were more scoping meetings and comments received on it than any NEPA document in history. Nationally comments in favor of reintroduction were 90%, in Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming comments received were 70% in favor.

My comments on the DEIS, and FEIS are part of the public record as I took the time to comment on both. Apparently, as is per always the case, issues like these that impact hunters the most were poorly attended by the hunting public. Again, I know, because I was THERE attending the meetings.

After the reintroduction, it was in vogue to listen to hunters pi$$ and moan that wolves were "shoved down our throats". Sorry, thats not true. Complacency and hand-wringing after the fact is not the USFWS shoving wolves down your throat. In particular when 70-90% of the comments receieved were in favor...you reap what you sow...or dont sow, in this case.

The EIS process worked in a couple ways.

1. It identified the reintroduced population as non-essential. For those with 2 firing brain cells, thats a HUGE deal. It gave State and Federal Managers a lot of Management options while the population made its way to delisting. That included lethal actions by the State and Federal wildlife services as well as the immediate issuing of kill permits to private landowners. Again, because I was there, I personaly saw kill permits issued as early as 1998 to private landowners.

Without reintroduction, and the language of the FEIS, when the established packs in Montana expanded, neither the agencies nor the private citizens would have been left with management options. Those wolves would have stayed on the ESL and would, for 100% fact, still be enjoying full federal protection.

2. The EIS also identified and ensured that the States would take control of wolves once the requirements of delisting happened.

Almost immediately after the FEIS and preferred alternative were accepted, MT, ID, and WY all began drafting state management plans. Again, the citizens of all those states were asked for input into those plans. Once again, as per always (still), meetings and comments were pitiful within the hunting community. But, thanks to the efforts of a handful of hunters, ranchers, etc. State Plans were drafted and adopted. Within those plans was the ability for the State to allow hunting, trapping, etc.

Throughout the process, nobody that I knew that was involved believed that this process was going to be perfect. Nobody denied that wolves would have an impact on livestock and big-game. It was stated, in crystal clear language, that there would be livestock predation and that big-game numbers would be impacted.

The process wasnt perfect. It was inevitable that the wolfhuggers were going to file some lawsuits. What nobody could have guessed is that Wyomings "plan" would hold up delisting for at least 3-5 years. Plenty of other bumps along the way as well.

The reason that threads like this are so ridiculous is that 99% of those commenting NOW...didnt do chit THEN. When the rubber was hitting the road, they werent even in the car...hell, they didnt even know there was a road...or a car! You had your chance to make changes, influence decisions...at least 4 times in the process...and you didnt do it. Tough chit now...and quit crying about it.

When the SSS crowd and those making ridiculous claims like a pack of wolves eat 2-4 elk per week, I cant find an elk to kill because the wolves at them all, the reintroduced wolves are canadian timber wolves etc. start in...its just ignorant ranting. Ignorant ranting that makes all hunters look like uniformed idiots. You can claim it drives wedges between hunters...but I WONT be lumped in with "hunters" of the type that blame wolves for every woe in game management. Wont do it.

I also wont allow the uninformed to make outlandish claims that simply arent true. The fools that make those claims can only harm the credibility of those that fought the hardest, and did all the heavy lifting, to get Wolf Management into the hands of the States.

Its now up to us how we proceed. Manage wolves the same way we manage elk, deer, pronghorn, sheep, bears, lions, we can continue to control the populations and have the biggest seat at the table. Kill wolves down to less than the minimum requirements with SSS bullchit...we're FRANKED. The wolves go back on the ESL and we never have control again...ever. That fact you take to the fuggin' bank.

Time to stop the Toby Bridges, Don Peay, Ryan Bensons, and mightyhunters of the world from continuing to cash in on the "wolf wars"... who do so both figuratively and literally. Time to stop the SSS redneck bullchit. Jump into reality, buy a wolf tag, and continue down the path of proper game management. Use your time, effort, and money on things that you can change...dont live in the past trying to change things you cant.

Act like sportsmen.
 
Thanks Buzz for the mostly informative response. I am actually glad there are guys like you out there that are involved, but I don't understand why someone like you, who seems to be very involved and informed, would go about bashing the guys that are making comments they think they know to be fact. Why wouldn't you use your energy and efforts to educate others while providing facts yourself without calling names and acting all high and mighty? It seems to me you have a lot to offer on this issue, but as far as I'm concerned your credibility goes out the door the minute you start acting all high and mighty.

In fact, in my opinion, you are more a part of the problem than those who are passionate about the issue but may not be as well informed.

If you would, I have just a couple of questions for you.

"Prior to wolf reintroduction...by at least a decade, there were already established packs in the South Fork and North Forks of the Flathead, the Rocky Mountain Front, and Ninemile areas of Montana. Those wolves were under full federal protection of the ESA. They were expanding, and there were very management options for anyone, including the Feds."

"Without reintroduction, and the language of the FEIS, when the established packs in Montana expanded, neither the agencies nor the private citizens would have been left with management options. Those wolves would have stayed on the ESL and would, for 100% fact, still be enjoying full federal protection. "

"2. The EIS also identified and ensured that the States would take control of wolves once the requirements of delisting happened. "

So are you really trying to say that the re-introduction was a good thing because without it we wouldn't have had the right to manage them state by state? Are you saying it was better to re-introduce them than to let them grow naturally until they reached a manageable size? There had to be a better way to go about this.

"The process wasnt perfect. It was inevitable that the wolfhuggers were going to file some lawsuits. What nobody could have guessed is that Wyomings "plan" would hold up delisting for at least 3-5 years. Plenty of other bumps along the way as well. "

Again, no other way to manage this? Really?

"When the SSS crowd and those making ridiculous claims like a pack of wolves eat 2-4 elk per week, I cant find an elk to kill because the wolves at them all, the reintroduced wolves are Canadian timber wolves etc. start in...its just ignorant ranting. Ignorant ranting that makes all hunters look like uniformed idiots. You can claim it drives wedges between hunters...but I WONT be lumped in with "hunters" of the type that blame wolves for every woe in game management. Wont do it.

So I will show my ignorance here Buzz. I am one who believes the wrong species of wolf was re-introduced. This is not the case? Please educate me further. I have read multiple articles that make this claim. What am I missing?

"I also wont allow the uninformed to make outlandish claims that simply arent true. The fools that make those claims can only harm the credibility of those that fought the hardest, and did all the heavy lifting, to get Wolf Management into the hands of the States. "

If you were truly as involved as you say you were then thank you! But if you were, why did we let it get that far to begin with? Why not be more pro-active up front to stop it from happening? Honest question here.


"Time to stop the Toby Bridges, Don Peay, Ryan Bensons, and mighty-hunters of the world from continuing to cash in on the "wolf wars"... who do so both figuratively and literally. Time to stop the SSS redneck bullchit. Jump into reality, buy a wolf tag, and continue down the path of proper game management. Use your time, effort, and money on things that you can change...dont live in the past trying to change things you cant.

Act like sportsmen. "

I agree 100% here, so back to my point. Why not be the guy that can educate folks and help pull those of us together that truly want to do something about it? Are you saying all we can do now is buy a tag and hunt them? That's it?



"The problem with quotes on Internet Forums is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
 
I believe they'll eventually get their way and Try their Hand at Planting Wolves in TARDville!

I also believe their are enough Law-Breakin Tards/Wolf Haters to decimate the Wolves they Plant just as the State/People did with the Red Wolves to the South of us!

So I see No Need to Waste that kinda Money on something that ain't gonna survive anyway!

The Wolves would have to beat the DWR to the Game Herds,the Wolves Best Hurry or they're sure gonna be Hungry!
















I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
 
I have read the last two posts with some interest. Buzz H starts to make sense when he calms down, doesn't post grip and grin photos of himself, tones back the name calling and does not pretend to be the only smart guy in the room. I can forgive him for his silliness in suggesting that I am cashing in on the wolf wars. That is just nonsense, but sometimes Buzz H can't help himself. He is spot on about Ryan Benson and Don Peay. He is absolutely correct when he states that the wolves are here to stay. That surely is a fact that everyone must deal with. I first became aware of the existence of the wolf in the lower 48 when I started to see wolf sign in the Kelly Creek drainage (Idaho)in the 1970's. I was there hiking and fishing. I was not a hunter at that time. The Fish and Game in Idaho was still in denial about the wolf in the 1970's.

This year in NW Wyoming the wolf quotas were reduced significantly. The quotas were filled in October in 2,3 and 4 before the end of that month. The quota of two wolves in Area 1(close to my home)were filled by November 10th. The harvest in Area 2 was actually one over the quota. That may have not been a good thing. The eco-elite groups are claiming that the five wolves killed in Area 2 were all from the same pack that had recently moved out of YNP. It is my understanding, that those wolves were all taken within a day or so of each other. I saw a photo of one of those dead wolves and it was collared. This is the same situation that emerged in Montana last year when the hunt was shutdown briefly because some YNP wolves had been harvested or were seen outside the park in an unprotected area. The eco-elite groups have been recently putting out press releases seeking a "buffer zone" around YNP where wolf hunting is not allowed.I guess that YNP is not a large enough buffer zone for these folks. I believe that the "buffer zone" is the fallback position for these groups to keep the wolf wars afloat.

It is my understanding that there are two lawsuits pending in federal court on the Wyoming wolf plan. Various eco-elite groups are involved in both of those lawsuits. One case was transferred to Wyoming from Colorado after a change of venue was sought. The other lawsuit is pending in federal court in Washington D.C. Yes, that is right in Washington D.C. The judge would not allow a change of venue to Wyoming because the wolf issue was of national importance. We may find ourselves in the same situation we did with the Obamacare lawsuits. You may have two separate decisions from two Federal District Court judges that are in conflict. I have been told by those in the know that this is one of the reasons why the wolf quotas were cut in 2013 in Wyoming. The other being the numbers taken for killing livestock and those taken in the predator zone. The high school in Powell is doing a full body mount on a wolf killed in 2013 for getting into livestock.

This year in NW Wyoming I had a 52/53 LE elk tag. These areas were general elk areas just a few years ago. I also had a general deer tag. Despite a serious health setback this summer, I spent as much time as possible scouting, hiking and looking for elk in my hunt area. I found a few places that held some very small groups of elk (5-8 in total). Two of the groups had a calf each in them. The other groups had no calves. These were resident elk. During the hunt, I found one group with a small 5x5 and a spike. I followed another small group and was able to take a good bull out of it when the rut kicked in. That bull was butchered and packed out by me. While hiking and hunting deer on the North Fork of the Shoshone I saw two small groups of elk. Neither group had a calf in it. This was Area 55. One group had a decent bull in it. The other group had a small raghorn in it. That bull was bugling in November. Not a wise thing to do in that unit.

I have never been a believer in the SSS theory. I have certainly had the opportunity to join this club over the years. I have suspected this has been going on for quite some time in NW Wyoming. I am concerned that it will kick in to overdrive if the wolf hunts are discontinued in Wyoming. The eco-elites are just dumb enough to think they win if the wolf hunts stop.

The wolf wars may continue to wage on but it is my guess that the wolf will be in the rear view mirror once the delisting of the grizzly bear comes on the scene in 2014. That will be the next war. A recent hurdle to the bear delisting (whitebark pine) was resolved recently.

just sayin...mh
 
Although Buzz is familiar with the subject, he is disingenuous at best. In his ever condescending attitude, he blames us peon hunters for not putting up a good enough fight. He knows better.

If every hunter in the US stood up and voiced displeasure with wolf reintroduction, the ESA would have still prevailed, and he knows it. In fact he and his wolf lover friends were banking on it.

Then, when BGF came out with a simple Bill that would have solved the problem, he and his buddies came unglued. Here it is for a reminder:

Here is the specific language of the American Big Game and Livestock Protection Act: S. 249 and H.R. 509

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
Section 4 of the Endangered Species Act of 1973 (16 U.S.C. 1533) is amended by adding at the end the following:
'(j) Exemption of Gray Wolf- This Act shall not apply to any gray wolf (Canis lupus).'.

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You would think that every concerned sportsman would rally behind this effort, but no. It was seen as a direct threat to the long range goals of the eco-freaks. A huge campaign was launched to discredit BGF and any who backed the bill. That in itself should tell you where Buzz and his holier than thou friends stand. He will no doubt say that the bill never stood a chance from the beginning, but wasn't he just on here saying we're at fault because we didn't "get in the car" or some such smoke and mirror?
 
You are so right eelgrass... Buzz, Obama and the wolf machine are all the same. If you present real HARD facts they find some way to discredit you, call you uneducated or sway the conversation. One small example; Buzz will fight tooth and nail to say wolves do not kill more than 2-4 elk per week. Because that is what is written in his wolf lover manual. That is WRONG wrong WRONG!!!! I have followed wolves that have killed way more than 2-4 per week and do so often during the winter months. Simply because I am not in the peer review status, Buzz will tell you I am in a fantasy land. One more huge example of SMOKE AND MIRRORS from the establishment. No wonder the regular hunting crowd doesn't spend much time at the meetings. This is why I do not trust guys like BUZZ!! No matter how eloquently he writes. I will stick with the SSS crowd. And for the record every wolf I have killed was 100 percent LEGAL!! But if wolves return to protected status, I will not stop!! and will employ any means necessary to protect our children's hunting heritage. ANY.... MEANS.... NECESSARY!!!!!!!!!!
 

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