Iraq Veterans against the War

F

Forthewall

Long Time Member
Messages
3,327
Saw a great Q & A on C-Span today with one of our Iraq veterans Sgt. Bruhn of votevets.org. You can replay it at their website

http://www.votevets.org/

If you honor the fine men and women who have served in Iraq, get their perspectives on the war.
 
Wow FTW, the right wing brain washing must not have left the neocons with the ability to respond to this sort of thing. I've never seen it take them this long to say something even if it's stupid.
 
A few buck$ here, a few buck$ there and you can get almost anyone to say what you want them to!
 
So whats the point of this post?


45f82e4d30de4f30.jpg
 
You don't get it? all the vets aren't in love with this war, it's supposed to have a 100% approval rating according to the neocons.
 
Ismith,

Too many false patriots around here wrapping themselves in the flag boasting their love of our troops. W says he listens to the Generals, that hasn't panned out to well. I think it's time we start listening to the boots on the ground.

If you want a real opinion of a company ask those on the line or in the ditches, don't ask the CEO or the Marketing Division.

Ismith, outside of yourself and H-dude, I can see the low lying fruit have stated their anti-veteran opinions and expressed their true disrespect for our troops. BTW love the cartoon!

TMB, appears to think that 35,000 combat veteran members of votevets.com have been paid-off.

D13er only wants to express his homo-erotic fantasies or talk about the current status of my johnson in his hand.

Predictable as always these yankee doodle dandies will keep speaking patriotically about the war and supporting our troops, while not taking the time to even evaluate the perspective of the men and women who have actually served in combat.
 
FTW, while I've not yet watched this as I just moved into Utah to take over the Marine Recruiting Station in Salt Lake, covering Utah, Idaho, Montana, and parts of Oregon, Neveda and Wyoming, I have expressed my opinion on this war numerous times in the Campfire. I still fully support the war. While there are some issues that are addressed along the way, the biggest problem we face that needs to be solved to get us out is to get the Iraqis to start handling their own security.

I've been on two tours in Iraq. How about you?
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-07 AT 08:11PM (MST)[p]Thanks fx and ismith.

When I was in highschool there were two little boys that lived across the street from us. The oldest was probably 7 or 8 years old at the time. He was recently killed in Iraq by an IED during his 3rd tour. Why in the HELL is this war run so that anyone has to stay more than one tour? Maybe we should take a poll from the boots on the ground, the ones going door to door looking for bad guys and have them all vote to stay or go so we can all shut up about how great the war is. Majority rules, too bad we will never know what the majority wants.
 
Whether we agree or disagree I would like to personally thank you for your service. I would rather discuss it with you after you check the jump. I am extremely interested in your opinion on the views at votevets.org. since these are only fellow combat veterans of the Afghan and Iraq campaigns.

No, I have not served in Iraq. Instead I spent 2003-2005 helping to raise $1.4 million to construct long-term lodging for visitng families of head trauma patients at the VA Miranda in Palo Alto. Although I oppose our actions in Iraq, I have done everything possible to support and comfort our returning injured veterans and their families.

I have 3 kids that I coached in Football and Baseball that have served. One came home and is suffering terribly from PTSD and alcoholism, one is at Walter Reed as I type, and I haven't heard about the third as his parents have moved.

In all fairness I don't want to go any further until you get a chance to check it out.

The topic of Iraqi forces taking over security is prevalent throughout the Q & A.
 
How long does it take to train an Iraqi? I mean are they that dumb? or if they don't care about their country or are afraid to serve because of the ethnic problems what do we do? it's easy to say they need to take control of their own affairs but how do you force them? our obligation to them has to have limits and they're fast reaching it.
 
> How long does it take
>to train an Iraqi?

Why dont you go over there and find out for yourself?
461721c46a8138e3.jpg

ismith
45f82e4d30de4f30.jpg
 
> How long does it take
>to train an Iraqi? I
>mean are they that dumb?
>or if they don't care
>about their country or are
>afraid to serve because of
>the ethnic problems what do
>we do?


Ok Dude you are showing your true colors again. You obviously pay attention only to the bad things we as American Marines and Soldiers do and pay no attention to the good things. to be expected since you only listen to the leftist anti-American media.

How long would it take to train you to defend your country? Probably a good long time knowing your views.
Are they that dumb or don't care?

How long would you do it when you are seeing your friends captured and tortured before being beheaded for being an infidel b/c you were helping to secure your country? How long would you last knowing your wife and daughters would be raped and tortured in front of you?

These guys don't just slap you around and punch you. They use electrical torture, drill holes in you, cut off body parts, you name it they will do it.

Tell us Dude, how long would you last and train to fight for your country?

Much of Iraq has been turned completely over to the Iraqi Security Forces.
 
So tell me is it peachie or bad over there you have all the facts it seems? you say they don't want tortured to death but things are really pretty good, that makes no sense . if they're scared I can understand that but you didn't say how we fix it you just attack me because like all war supporters you have no answers. it's not up to you and the Iraqis are going to have to take control as time is running out, even Bush knows that. by the way as seen in the subject of this thread you don't speak or represent all the vets as you often imply , your opinion does count but it's not the only one out there.
 
Dude I've never claimed that things were going great or peachie. Nice word by the way. I've told it like it is time and time again but you choose to look blindly at my words and the words of others who've been there and support. YOu look with eyes wide open as long as they are against the war like you. Everything I've said has been consistant. I've never implied that all of us support it. I've told you that most, a large majority in fact, believe in what we are doing. Many have problems with the way we have to fight, b/c the cowards we fight hide behind the skirts of women, kind of like you there Dude.

I will never listen to the put downs of a war I believe in from someone who knows nothing of what it's like b/c they didn't serve. Why don't you get off your liberal high horse and travel and learn a little. Hell even that idiot Sean Penn, got out of there b/c he realized how bad it was for the people in Iraq before we came.
 
Ok , better line up some transportation if the 68% of the American population who want the war ended have to go to Iraq . that's the dumbest thing you've said yet, why do I need to go to Iraq if all the others against the war don't? if you'll notice in the subject of this thread many vets feel the same as I do about this war and most of my opinion is based on what I've heard from guys who've actually been over there. if I choose their word over yours that's not an insult to you, I'm sure you did your duty well so don't take it so personal. think about it 68% of Americans want out of Iraq yet you jump on me with personal insults like I'm some far out wacko, you're the one needing to prove your point not me. good luck with that , and post haste time is not on your side.
 
I'm sure that 68% of Americans don't even leave their house long enough to know whether the sky is blue or not. Polls have a way of publicizing the most ignorant and sheltered of us all.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-09-07 AT 03:11AM (MST)[p]FX, Thank you for your service to our country.

Dude, I haven't read all of your posts nor will I. :) But let me see if I got it right. Bush got US involved in Iraq knowing there weren't WMDs? It was to use more petrol and make more $$ personally and for the VP? Get more votes for his re-election? OK, even if this is all true, what the heII do you think is gonna happen when/if we pull out of Iraq?

Although the terrorists hide behind churches, schoolkids, civilians, now at least they are fighting our military. When we pull out, they'll be here, attacking US.

Man I hate to be right on this one but time will prove it so be careful what you wish for. With your thought processes, I'm thinking you live in a big city (Target) huh?

As far as the 68%-69% of Americans opinions taken in polls, this is NOT a Democracy, its a Republic. We elected a Commander-In-Chief and he's not bowing down is he? The average American knows more about American Idol then Iraq and thats sad.
 
"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
President Bill Clinton, February 4, 1998

Two weeks later Bill Clinton said this:

"If Sadam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
Bill Clinton, February 18, 1998

On this same day Bill Clintons Secretary of State said this:

"Iraq is a long way from here, but what happens there means a great deal here. For the risk that the leaders of a rouge state, will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
Madeline Albright, February 18, 1998

That same year a letter from Senators said this to Bill Clinton:

We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end it's weapons of mass destruction program."
Democrat Senators, John Kerry, Tom Daschle, Carl Levin and others in a letter to Bill Clinton October 1998

And again that same year from the Democrat savior was this:

Sadam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process. The responsibility of the United States in this conflict is to eliminate weapons of mass destruction to minimize the danger to our troops and to diminish the suffering of the Iraqi people."
Nancy Pelosi, December 16, 1998
 
Guys we've been through this before, quotes from people years before the war and before the inspectors were in Iraq don't mean anything. with that thinking we could take quotes from the cold war era and justify nuking Russia today.


No I don't think Bush knew for sure there were no WMD's but I think he played with the facts to get what he wanted, why did he want a war with Iraq? I believe he honestly felt it was the right thing to do and the end justified the means. he was wrong and we're paying the price now and for some time to come. since he was wrong he's tried to cover it with crap you guys suck up like a Hoover deluxe. prove any of your theories about why it was still a great idea, you can't so you rant on and attack those who accept the reality of the situation over propaganda.
 
If there has ever been a person on this forum that has been duped by the Dems and their willing accomplices in the media, both of which are vested in DEFEAT it is you Dude.
You Bush haters are always stating, as you did here Dude, that Bush manipulated the information. Well then tell me how in the HELL did he manipulate it before he even got into office!!!!!!! Everyone of these quotes are acurate. So by your logic Bush was manipulating the intel as Govonor of Texas. Get a grip Dude. Your argument no longer stands.
 
I never said he altered the intell before he was in office, those are true quotes but they were years old at the time we went to war. things change, before the inspectors were crawling all over Iraq I'd have agreed with any of those quotes and even Bush. to hold someone to thier words before they had all the information that would come years later is a new low for you.
 
Dude the point is they all had the same intel. They had it then and they had it when all those Dems voted to invade Iraq. Again your argument is null and void!!!
 
First off who said the dems were right? second IF Bush played with the facts then they were lied too . on this subject you stay away from Gen. Powell don't you? what he said and did after his mistake speaks volumes.
 
35,000 members?

Not sure about the total number of combat vets. But If I remember the current number deployed in Iraq is 120,000. How many in Afgan. How many have completed their tour ect.

So how many combat vets do we have in this country?

I would venture to say that these guys are way in the minority.
 
Now we are getting some where Dude. So if all our leaders had the same intel and they were all lied to including Bush. Number one who lied. Cause remember every intel source on the face of the planet said the same thing about Iraq. Number two as President of a country faced with terror threats the likes of which had never been seen before on Planet Earth had intel on a country that said they have WMD's, a known enemy of said country, what is this President supposed to do?.................They are suposed to do exactly what Bush did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
It appears that about 35,000 people have signed up with this organization. That is about 2.5% of the approximately 1.4 millions service members who have deployed. It doesn't matter what the cause there will be a certain percentage who disagree with the it.

They certainily are entitled to their opinions and to their effort to speak out against the war, the vets have earned the right to say what ever they wish.

I think it is not a slam dunk that the "majority" feel the same way the votevets.com members feel. In addition if you ask any troop whether they would be in Iraq or sitting in their garrison , of course they would pick the safer place.

Huntindude,

You are stooping to a new low for you in your line of questioning and thought processes. You are telling HuntFx not to take it personal when you put down everything he has been trying to do, at the request of his country, how else should he take it? You should take a moment to reflect on how you come across to those who serve, especially when you have never in your life put on a uniform. It is insulting the way you put down people who have and are doing some very difficult work.

FTW is respectful and states his opinions which I can read and see where he is coming from. If you don't support the war then fine that is your right. Don't belittle and talk down to troops who have actually been there.


http://www.iava.org

Nemont
 
Dude says this:

"....why do I need to go to Iraq if all the others against the war don't? if you'll notice in the subject of this thread many vets feel the same as I do about this war and most of my opinion is based on what I've heard from guys who've actually been over there."

So dude must've missed the post where Huntfx4 mentioned that he is active military and did two tours in Iraq? Or do you poo-poo his ideas because they don't reflect your own?

As a vet, I can assure that there are more of us that want to see this conflict resolved more than most. But they want it resolved in such a way that it doesn't come across as "another Vietnam" as cut and runners are fond of saying.
 
I don't see where I said anything disrespectful. the uniform doesn't gaurantee the right to say and do whatever you wish without being questioned. just when did we decide to let the troops run the war anyway? you guys sound like we should just turn this thing over to the troopsand let them sort it out, that's a new twist. I know two guys who've been in Iraq and tell a much different story than fx4, no direspect to him but I'llgo with someone I know thank you. this argument is hopeless as we've all chosen our sides, the fate of this war is pretty much sealed and going postal on me or those who think like me won't save it for you.
 
So you base an opinion solely on what two people out of 1.4 million have to say? How many places in Iraq do you think those 2 people have seen? Do they have the "big picture" look or like most enlisted people only see what is in front of them?

You were disrespectfully with your line of question about how stupid Iraqis are, you were disrespectful with your crying about being personally attacked.

Nobody has ever said turn it over to the troops. Unless you can produce a quote. I do think those who have served understand what is happening and what it takes much more then someone who can just sit back on lob in opinions based upon talking to two people.


Nemont
 
Boy do I feel bad now, I hear Iraqis talked about with less respect than dirt on here but I'm " disrespectful " to question if they're up to the task of defending themselves? 6 years isn't enough time? I don't care for any of the rag heads, boy call the mods on that remark. ok tell us the " real story " since the rest of the free world isn't privey to it. even McCain tried to lie for you and got busted, com'on this should be good.
 
I don't have to set the free world straight. Not my job, also you need to lay off the lumping me together with people. You don't like it so don't do it to me.

McCain is a nut case period. His time has come and passed.

If you have passed your rabid anti war position based upon two troops returning from the OIF then you are not as smart as I have given you credit for.

If I wanted to grow mint who would I ask a mint farmer such as your self or an auto worker? If I want to understand what is going on in Iraq should I ask a mint farmer of the couple of hundred veterans I have met and personally spoken to. You may be good at growing mint but not so good in forming intelligent opinions.

Even if you arrived at the same opinion after discussing it with several different service members then at least it would be an informed opinion.

I know that 70% of Americans disapprove of this war. I understand that many think we should set a date and pull out now, regardless of the consquences. I understand people have lost loved ones over there. I don't love this war either, I wish we didn't have to fight it, I wish we would have finished in Afghanistan before we picked another fight, I wish Saddam would have let the inspectors in when he saw all those troops massing in Kuwait. I wish there had been better planning of how to exit Iraq. I wish all those things but as long as my brother, brother in law and my many many active duty brothers are there I won't speak ill of them.

Go ahead if it makes you feel better to say guys are all wrong about it, that is your right. I don't agree with you or anyone else. I have formed my opinion after having served, spent time meeting returning troops at the airports, writing letters daily and helping family members cope.

Nemont
 
DUDE is entitled to his opinion, that is all it is, an opinon. His thought process does not promote debate, he has no idea how to respectfully state his opinion without trashing anyone elses thoughts and opinions.
That being said, why do you guys bother to respond to him, let the young man say his say, ignore his posts, he will go away.
To all of you that have served and will serve again, I thank you and admire you. I too spent a tour there and it really riles me when people like him spew forth their ill thought opinons.
If you want to debate the subject, do it with people that at least respect your opinions and thoughts than with someone that continually brow beats you.
 
I have no doubt the vets know more about what's going on there than I do I never said otherwise. again I'll say not ALL vets agree with you war supporters so are they lying or just stupid? or could it be that's their opinion? again we come back to the fact that pro or anti war vet it makes no difference they are not the ones running it, never have never will. Bush and congress run it and I have the right to voice my opinion as you do. I don't blame the vets for the way things are going but you use that slant so you can bash anyone for their opposition to this conflict. this tactic has been used by this administration since day one and it sucks, it's unfair and un American. " you're with us or you're against us" remember that? well guess what most of us are against you now, guess what that means.
 
I thank all of you on this site who have supported the troops and have backed me up here. I fully support this war and it has nothing to do with backing my commander in chief with blinders. I've seen many different 3rd world countries and how bad they have it compared to the big bad U.S. of A. as Dude and others would have us believe. I've seen many reports of what really went on under Saddam. That is why I support this war regardless of what was said to start it. I believe in trying to help others get a chance at a better life. I've spoken to many Iraqis and all have had a story of family being tortured or murdered by Saddam's thugs and are very happy to have the opportunity to be free.

Dude,
I could talk until I'm blue in the face and show you hard facts and you still would not understand or would just simply not listen to it. You've constantly ignored the good that has been put out there by many that is going on over there. That is where you are separated from most of those that want out of the war.
I've spoken personally to many people opposed to the war. But I have yet to speak to anyone so blinded by his hatred that they could not listen to the good things going on and understand my stance. Other than you that is. Those people I will listen to, for they have many concerns that mirror my own, and they listen and debate without the blindness. I listenI will not listen to those like you. I've never touted that I love this war. I don't wish to fight any war, but I will fight and strongly support a war for a cause I believe in.
Yes, right now the polls list 68-70% disapproval. But I do truly believe that if the leftist media had reported even half of the good things that happen everyday, that number would be much lower.

As for the "two" you know that are anti war, that's their perogative. I can show you hundreds of supporting veterans who believe in this cause, that I know.

Believe it or not, since I've now gotten out here in Utah and running the Marine recruiting station that covers Utah, Idaho, Montana and parts of Neveda, Oregon and Wyoming, I've seen dozens of young adults ready to go and do their part. It's amazing that 17 and 18 year old kids are still coming in and swearing to protect you after all the bad stuff they hear. Great young men and women, all of them.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-07
>AT 08:11?PM (MST)
>
>Thanks fx and ismith.
>
>When I was in highschool there
>were two little boys that
>lived across the street from
>us. The oldest was
>probably 7 or 8 years
>old at the time.
>He was recently killed in
>Iraq by an IED during
>his 3rd tour. Why
>in the HELL is this
>war run so that anyone
>has to stay more than
>one tour? Maybe we
>should take a poll from
>the boots on the ground,
>the ones going door to
>door looking for bad guys
>and have them all vote
>to stay or go so
>we can all shut up
>about how great the war
>is. Majority rules, too
>bad we will never know
>what the majority wants.


Zigga,

All I can say is the US military is severely undermanned. When I joined the Marines in 1985, there were about 250,000 Marines or more. Now we are at 175,000. The Army was at nearly one million at one time. Now they are around 400,000. Thanks to Clinton's severe cutbacks. I'm not saying it was all him, but we went from 230,000 Marines to 174,000 under him.
 
fx4 I'm sure you have some insight on this war I don't , I wouldn't question that. that aside this war is not a slam dunk great project worthy of worship as some believe . if I said one thing in opposition to this war or 1000 things I'd get the same traitor treatment I now enjoy. 99.0 of war supporters have a zero tolerance policy for opposition , under these conditions it's impossible to have a meaningful debate. it's been like this since day one and probably will be until it's over, but it only works on MM but not in the real world. I don't beleive I said anything negative about you or any GI's but if I came across that way it wasn't at all my intention. unlike the nut jobs on this site you seem to accept the fact there is an opposition even though you disagree, I don't know if it's your training or your personality but it's commendable. to you nut jobs, Saddam accepted no desention just like you advocate. if you took the time to get to know him you might have really liked him and his country.
 
Dude- "the uniform doesn't guarentee the right to say and do whatever you wish without being questioned"

You are right about the questioning part but without that uniform, YOU couldn't say and do whatever YOU wish. Show those that have/do wear it some respect.
 
I try to stay out of the war debate but that last sentence if you took the time to get to know him you might have really liked him and his country dude are you serious.
 
Sarcasm. with some truth, you don't think the right wing nut jobs would deal with their opposition as Saddam did given the chance? I can promise you some would.
 
How do you figure? some of you right here on this forum have said you'ld like to kill the flag burning hippies. I'd like to slap them around some but not kill them. you honestly think some of the right wing extremist wouldn't execute anti war demonstrators if they could get away with it? I'll take bet on that. maybe not most of you here, you can read and write so you may not be as radical as some of the most vocal ones.
 
> How do you figure? some
>of you right here on
>this forum have said you'ld
>like to kill the flag
>burning hippies. I'd like to
>slap them around some but
>not kill them. you honestly
>think some of the right
>wing extremist wouldn't execute anti
>war demonstrators if they could
>get away with it? I'll
>take bet on that. maybe
>not most of you here,
>you can read and write
>so you may not be
>as radical as some of
>the most vocal ones.

I don't recall anyone stating they would like to kill people who burn the flag? There are people on the extreme left that waxed poetic that they wish Cheney was blown up in Afghanistan, others blogged endlessly that they wished Tony Snow would die a slow death from his reoccurance of cancer. There Extremist on both sides, not just the right.

The comment that "right wing nuts" would liked Saddam's tactics was pretty stupid. Just as you have your rights to protest I have a right to my own ideas and can state them. For sticking up for my ideas I get called stupid, a "nut" job, ignorant etc. Don't hide behind the left or right because neither side has a lock on virtue.

Nemont
 
It's more like WWF around here than a debate so I can't imagine why I'd think some of you harbor ill will against those who opposed you. I'm not saying all or any of you here would take part in a lynch mob but there is that element out there and the whitehouse has fed it from the begining. think about it have you been called a traitor or weak for your stance on this? if you'ld have been right and taking out Saddam was the only way then and there we wouldn't be having this debate because I'd have to admit I was wrong and shut up, that's not the case at all. I'll admit it I'm still sore from the traitor crap I took when this war began and I even had freinds who almost wouldn't talk to me over it, now they agree with me and most of them are opposed to the war today. I think after 5 years of this you do cop an attitude and that's what keeps me around here, I think until you've been called an America hating traitor by people who mean it it's hard to understand what it's like. maybe it's like a black person being called the " N " word I don't know but it sticks with you if you love your country.I don't think the dems are free from this mentality either, but enviro hippies and that type are not as hatful as their right wing counterparts have been as a rule.
 
huntindude-
Just curious how old you are?
Seems you hide your profile on MM for what reason other than being a troll or someone who likes to stir the pot while eating a popsicle.
I have been known to voice my opinions popular or not but I do not hide my identity. If I am wrong with something I have had an opinion on I have been man enough to admit it.
I would guess even if you knew you were wrong you would hold onto that popsicle, sniffle a little bit and throw a tantrum....

Your insane remarks only paint the portrait of this hidden child like figure you have become.
Let us in on what your really made of because for now here is the impression we have of you.

huntindude-(Specs)
5'0 but taller in high heels
Favorite color is yellow
Age:7 but I use spell check on everything I type to look older
Location: Behind mama's dress but occasionally peak out at the real world.
Favorite Food: That's an easy one CROW.
Hobbies: I play with Clinton dolls and my sisters easy bake oven.

I could go on and on but what's the point really?
Your always gonna be a troll so I guess your gonna have to live with this perception or find another place to play.
Like an adult now I have put you in time out and choose to ignore you from now on.
Best,
Jerry

44f4e09309b4a917.jpg
 
knacksack you are a first class moron , did you read any of that? are you too dumb to understand or are you so self centered you don't care about why anyone acts as they do?

You seem to be interested in who and what I am but I have to be up front with you I'm not gay so don't waste your time.

I'm a 44 year old, 3 rd generation Oregon farmer/rancher, 6'2" 235 lb half breed.
 
Huntindude,

I guess we all have our cross to bear. Have you been called a Nazi, a blood thirsty pig, warmonger, and much worse. I love this country as well, wore the uniform, pay my taxes, raise my family etc. I have just as much right to support my family that is serving as you have to protest the war.

Now you are saying you got your feeling hurt and the whole time I have posted back and forth with you, you said you didn't care what people say. Interesting.

Love of this country can come from either side of the aisle. I think that you don't really understand the impact of your words and actions upon those called upon to serve. It is your right to question policy etc. You can do as you please and shouldn't muzzle you opposition however don't pretend that it doesn't hurt those who are serving in Iraq.

You didn't like being called a traitor, imagine reading some of things you have posted here while serving in Iraq. Many, many of the men and women serving support the mission in Iraq, do you think they like hearing many of the things you post? It isn't just a one street. If being called a traitor hurts you think of the impact of your words upons others.

Nemont
 
You have a point, but until recent times you've also been in control. the one holding the hammer always takes less abuse. if my feelings were hurt that easy I wouldn't hang around here. I tried to give some perspective which I should have known would be used against me, that's fine . I find it hard to beleive those in the military are so thin skinned that a political debate at home would knock them out, if they can't handle that they most likely shouldn't be there. did it ever occur to you those in opposition to the war would really rather they didn't get killed or scared for life? you sound as if dying serves them better. one last point is we don't have a draft, other than those who were in before this conflict began they had a choice. while I think it's commendable they choose to serve thier country the knew what they were signing up for and how many Americans felt about this war, to assume any less would be to doubt their intelligence.
 
So basically nobody should call you an American Hating traitor but it is perfectly acceptable for you to call others nut job, freedom hating right wingers? In addition only your feelings matter because someone called you names but the troops should just toughen up and understand it is just politics?

You really need to take a reading comprehension class or something. Tell me where I have said our troops dying serves them better? You won't be able to find it.

I think I have been pretty clear that you have a right to say and believe as you wish, isn't it a great country we live in. It seems you can't stand anybody that doesn't fall in line with your beliefs. Same thing you accuse the right of.


Have a nice day. Hope your crops are growing and you can find peace with the war because even the dems are going to fund it for the forseeable future.

Nemont
 
I never said I couldn't take it, you're saying they can't. you didn't say dying is better but you are saying sending them to war is better, for some of them that's the same thing. this all boils down to is this war worth the cost or not? meaning in lives and dollars. if you can't prove it is then you've lost the debate, to sustain a war forever it takes a real reason not a theory. yes they will fund it for a while longer they have no choice. as you sit back and enjoy that short lived victory remember who ever the next president is be they republican or dem they will end it. Bush defying the American voters will not help the slim chance the republicans have in '08, the republicans will be held accountable for his mistakes in the next election as they were in the last one. no I don't think that's a good thing, I would have liked a chance to have an anti war republican like Hagel in the running with an actual chance at winning. you're handing it to the dems now wraped in a ribbon.
 
"this all boils down to is this war worth the cost or not?"

It is worth every life and every penny Dude. If the Dems got on board and backed the Republicans and the President there would be no stopping the brave young men and women in our military.

Do you believe Dude that we can't win in Iraq and Afganastan? We are the US of A for Christ sake. The only enemy on planet earth that can defeat us is us, from with in, from folks like you and the media and the Dems. If we all came together we could stomp some ass and be out in a year. But with the constant barrage from the media and the Dems of how bad it is they have been able to dupe a bunch of folks into thinking this is a lost cause and I am tell ya it aint.

The same political bull crap that defeated us in Nam is raising it's ugly head.

Why do you supose the media never reports on anything posative in Iraq Dude? Why do you supose all we ever hear every single friggin day is how many Americas killed or wounded but never hear how many enemy we killed or wounded? Why do you think all we ever hear about is how bad a job Bush is doing and never ever hear of how well he is doing on so many other levels i.e. the economy ect ect...? Why Dude why do you think that is?!!!
 
I don't know why I feel like responding but here goes. I don't frame anything in "I win, you lose". I would like to be out of Iraq. IF the Democrats would back off from a date certain, ie a firm date that allows every Muslim that can get to Iraq time to prepare to shoot at every convoy as it packs up and leaves Iraq then that would be a positive.

I also am not going to argue the next presidential election. If the democrats win then that is the way it is. A new commander in chief will get to make all the easy decisions since leading this country is so simple, as you imply.

I am not a died in the woo support Republicans at any cost American. I am a realist in most of my dealing and I tend to think that our country is still great and still has alot to offer the world.

So don't make stuff up as you go along. I never mentioned 2/3 of the crap you referenced.

Here is the difference if a Democrat holds the office of President I will still respect the office, I don't have to like the office holder. You are blinded by your hate of the office holder.

Enjoy and hope you harvest is plentiful.

Nemont
 
Maybe we're getting somewhere I don't know, I would think right or wrong you must admit no matter who becomes the next president they will be against the war or they won't get elected. if that's the case why not try to scale back and phase out rather make Americans so discusted they want troops out the day the pres elect is sworn in? it's going to end on or before Jan. '08 the only question is how fast and in what fashion.

202 a few towns are somewhat peaceful I'll give you that, but the country as a whole is still in chaos. to blame the media is an excuse that's wearing thin and is being ignored for the most part. if things are so sweet over there why did McCain have to fake it and lie to put a positive spin on his shopping trip? why didn't he just go for a ride in a '65 Vette with the top down and the wind in his hair ? I mean com'on even pro war polititions have to lie to keep this alive? now the Pope says we aren't helping matters by staying in Iraq, you're religious don't you even care what he says? shouldn't he have contact with someone who knows a little more than you and I?
 
Well you are going to be HUGELY Disappointed because in January of 08 GWB will still have a whole year as the Pres. Even dems have said we will have 40,000 troops in Iraq even after we "leave".

I don't see GWB or the democratically controlled congress pulling the plug by January of 2008. There will be money approved to continue the war until the next election in Nov. 08. There is no way the Dems will give the "Liberals abandoned the troops" hammer to beat them with prior to the election.

I bet that there will be a fairly big redeployment planned just prior to the Nov. 2008 elections.

Nemont
 
Holy Moly,

You guys have been busy!!! I take off to go skiing for a couple of days and just look at all these threads.

Where to begin? HuntFX4 did you get a chance to see Sgt. Bruhn?

Buttshot is a vet? No kidding, where did you serve Buttshot and what did you do Buttshot? Do you have buddies still there that you talk to? What did you think of Bruhn's Q & A?

I saw a couple of articles this morning that kind of gave a Good, Bad, and Ugly report.

The Good: 13 neighboring nations met to discuss their roles in stabilizing the area. The british handed over their base in Basra to Iraqi security forces. The 2nd base to be handed over so far. Al Queda Iraq may have screwed the pooch by using chlorine in a highly sunni area, which apparently has pissed the sunni's off.

The Bad: Although violence has somewhat quieted down around the green zone, american deaths are still averaging 2.8 per day, the same as before the surge. While sectarian deaths have slightly risen on a daily basis.

The Ugly: Al Sadr who has been protected by Al Maliki has called for civil uprising and to kill Americans and anyone that might help them. He told them to fly Iraqi flags and apparently the people hit the streets, flags in hand.

Nemont, where did you get that 1.4 million number from? I haven't been able to track down just how many have served in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. Even the DoD site doesn't have specifics.

It looks like Ismith, H-Dude, and Nemont may have been the only ones out of 50+ threads that saw the Q & A.

Dude, what happened? You volunteered to dog the canyon and it looks like everyone was standing on the saddle throwing rocks down the canyon at you. :)

Y'all need to stop hammering on H-Dude, if this operation had been better planned from the beginning with a clear objective and a clear entrance and exit strategy, he like most of us tax paying (50% to defense or offense) Americans could hold more faith in those that amassed this whole fiasco.

If W has listened to Zinni and Shinseki instead of Rummy we might have just pulled off another 100 hour war without all this lingering bloodshed and confusion. Afterall W says he listens to the Generals, but the Generals like Abizaid say their request and concerns repeatedly fell on deaf ears. I like the candor of Gates, so hopefully that will improve.

Soldiers are trained to not question orders or the mission. Even if the premise of the mission evolves into something else, our brave men and women have to accept the hand their dealt with. Not to glamourize war movies but the phrase FUBAR comes to mind.

I thought Sgt. Bruhn did have a valid point, which was verified by HuntFX4 to a certain extent. The need to hand over security to the Iraqi people needs to be expedited. Sgt. Bruhn's noted that the withdrawal will lead to full blown civil war whether we leave now, 5 years, or even 20 years from now.

I have more to type, but I got baseball practice.

Be civil to H-Dude, like myself at times..he receives alot of mud-slinging at a 20 v 1 ratio and doesn't run away or contradict himself. I happen to have alot of respect for my half-breed cousin. You may not agree with his or my views, and I or we may not agree with yours but that is why we all fight the good fight and at the end of the day consider ourselves brothers and fellow Americans. Isn't it?

Type to you later
 
FTW,

It took some doing but I finally was able to watch the whole thing. I disagree with this guy on most of what he said.

The only thing I agree with, is it is hard to trust the Security Forces. The insurgency has infiltrated in some areas and those guys in there eventually get found out and taken out of the arena.

He claims the media had nothing to do with the negative thoughts on this war. "THey report violence b/c there is violence." Well they ONLY report violence. They don't report on the schools built or redone and reopened. It was very difficult to get a good education there before the war, now they have opportunity. They don't report ANY of the good.

He said no weapons of mass destruction were found. One of my friends was contaminated by an artillery round that was a chemical round filled with Sarin Gas, that was set up as an IED. Thank God it didn't blow, as it probably would have killed dozens of Marines. That is a WMD. There were others just like it found, but not in huge quantities. This is the same gas that Saddam used on his own people.

My personal opinion of this guy is he is buying directly into the hubbub put out by the democratic party and believing EVERY word they say. Yet he believes everything GWB said was a lie or was wrong in regards to this war.

As far as leaving Dude alone for the reasons you state. Dude may not change his tune, but he has yet to listen to reason which many on this site have put out there. Not only that he has taken many out of context, in a way to fit his own agenda of putting down us "war mongers". His last reply to my last post is the best post I had seen from him. I actually thought he was starting to pick up on what we supporters feel.
Then he had to turn around and mess that up by saying we should have gotten to know Saddam better, and that many of us would rather kill Dems than listen to them.
 
"to blame the media is an excuse that's wearing thin and is being ignored for the most part."
But can you answer my questions Dude?
 
I did, McCain has staked his campaign on this war and he had to use Hollywood script and flat out lie to give us something positive. do you want the media to hire Tom Sellek or Harrison Ford to act out happy stories in Iraq for you? the media is supposed to show the story as it is, you have Fox and friends for god's sake and they can't even sugar coat it good enough for you. if things are so good why do we need a troop surge? none of you media critics have ever fielded that one, to listen to you all we need is a few boy scouts to wrap this thing up and we're done over there.


Again don't tie Afganistan to Iraq, you'll get no argument out of me about Afganistan and the hunt for Bin laden.
 
You still did not answer why we never hear of how many enemy we have killed on a daily basis. The American dead number is paraded around by the Dems and the leftist media constantly. Why do we never hear of the good like new schools, masques, streets, water treatment plant ect. ect. I mean if your media are to report on the truth as you say then why do they not report it all. I mean if they are going to remind me at a minimum 6 to 7 times a day just how many Americans have given their lives why can they not do the same for the good news.
 
202 with your thinking 9/11 was no big deal, it only effected a few buildings on the east coast. heck the rest of the nation was just fine why not look at that? so how many bombers and murderers have to roam around that new school or masque before it really doesn't matter because you're affraid to use it? you can look at the good points for a while but reality has to take precedence. now just call Fox and freinds and tell them you want some good news , if they can't find or fabricate it for you then it truly doesn't exist.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-11-07 AT 03:37PM (MST)[p]The Iraq Study Group actually stated that the media was under-reporting the violence in Iraq. I guess they were wrong too. As for the Media reporting the truth, do you mean like Pat Tillman truth or John McCain truth? Last throws truth? Which part of the juicy truthiness do you mean? Perhaps the democratic election where candidates were announced the day before election truth.

Maybe it was the KBR getting paid but not building schools truth?

Perhaps it is escalating the threat level color before the DNC conventions type of truth.

When you get the truth but don't like it, you greet it by discrediting it and discounting the sources.

When the administration gets the truth, do they tell us the truth? Which truth is acceptable for you to hear 202.

By the way this is what Barbara Walters meant about Peter Jennings. Simply reporting the news without real journalistic research lends to reporting a perceived truth.

When the Tillman story ran all the Fox News anchors, Limbaugh, The Weekly Standard and their fellow biased liberal jewish colleagues in the media reported the truth. That is, it was true according to the DOD, until the real truth came out.

According to Scotty McClellan Libby and Rove were telling the truth. But in the end we found out that maybe the weren't telling the real truth.

Who are the enemies Al Queda in Iraq, Sunni's, Shiite, could you redefine the enemy or is the enemy everyone outside of ourselves?

The truth and this particular war don't seem to go hand in hand.

I know one thing I sure would like to know the truth, I'm just not sure I would recognize it or believe it anymore.
 
FTW, How long have you been reading stuff on this site? I tried to send you a PM but when looking at your profile there is no info on you. What or why do you hide? If you have been here for more than just a couple of years, you would know where I served and for how long. Let me clear it up for you, my unit was notified of deployment 8 days before my 20 year anniversary, we shipped out on the 1st of February 2003, spent a year in theater running a utilities team, construction for you that don't know. I watched the build up of forces, watched the 3rd ID cross the border heaading into Iraq, ran to the bunkers for 3 days without a break from the missiles being launched, and then for the next 2 weeks whenever Saddam decided to give us some exercise we ran to the bunkers some more. After 6 months of deployment, we had our tour extended for 3 more months, and then again for 3 more months. No , I don't got nothing to ##### about except that the Army took a year of my life away 8 days before retirement. I listen to the crap about how wrong we were then and even now, don't really say much, but when I have heard enough, I speak my mind and assholes like Huntidude tell me how backwards I am and that my thoughts and beliefs are out of line regardless. No, don't tell me to take it easy on him, perhaps you should ask him to listen and try to understand someone else's point of view without telling them that they are wrong and out of line.
I came back to the states Feb of 2004, had a couple disks in my back worked on, had a fusion in my lower back and went back to work in 2005 so really the military took almost 3 years of my life away,, ya , I think I have a right to speak my mind and have someone listen, I earned it.
 
Almost forgot, I have had friends over there since I came home, about to send off a couple more pretty quick. I haven't heard a single soldier with any credibility say anything bad about what we are trying to do over there, I do hear stuff about getting stabbed in the back by some of the locals but mostly I hear how the Iraqi's are glad we came to their aid.
If you guy's truly support the troops and not the war, a good way to show it, would to be there for there farewell and return. I don't recall any of the antiwar crowd tell stories about farewells or returns
 
That does give you the right to voice your opinion, and no doubt you have some insight most of us don't. it doesn't give you the right to be a jerk and unless you rank pretty high like commander in chief , it doesn't put you in control of the war. serving is a commenable act that is and should be appreciated by all Americans, but it doesn't give you the right to call others names and dismiss their opinion in favor of your own. others who served beside you have a different take on this, would you call them names and dismiss them as well? our president and VP have done no more time in combat than I have, what makes them worthy in your opinion? yes they were elected and like it or not I accept that but if military experience is required before you can voice your opinion on a war, shouldn't you have it before you can lead one? kind of a double standard wouldn't you say?
 
Hey Buttshot,

Easy big guy I wasn't being smug when I mentioned I did not know you were a vet. As far as my profile I have never even looked at profiles, when we registered our nicks in 99 there was no profile to fill out. I guess I should check into that, I certainly have nothing to hide. I'm still trying to figure out what happened to the Chat room.

Obviously I did not know you served or I would not have asked! I was really hoping to find those that have served for their take on votevets.org. for the reasons I stated in my follow up thread. Till now HuntFX4 was the only person I knew of at the Campfire that had been there.

As far as sending me a pm, you have done it before so I don't know what the problem is there. Just click on the pm icon on any of my threads if you want to chat one on one.

Since alot of the 60+ threads that have gone back and forth didn't address the post directly I didn't read through all of them.

I have nothing but admiration for those that where the uniform so let me extend my deepest gratitude for your service and sacrifice to our nation. Outside of serving I have done what I could do for vets and their families.

It is no secret that I too have been away from the site for extended periods of time. I have mentioned what I was doing between 2003-2005 which comprised much of time after work and on weekends.

If dude hit a raw nerve there isn't much I can say or do about that. As you can see there are alot of times when the post becomes irrelavent and many jump onto a thread for a personal attack or to redirect the subject.

I think you remember our last encounter Buttshot when you hit a raw nerve with me. When I come, I come correct and we exchanged pm's instead airing our laundry on the forum. You should know I do my research, but the media doesn't have candid interviews with boots on the ground.

All of that being said, Did you get a chance to see the Q & A and what was your take on it? I really am interested to hear specifically of those like yourself that have served.
 

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