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pioche
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what are the odds with 4 non res. points for deer early kaibab?
azbiggame
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had a N.R. client draw in 2008 with 5 B.P. and took the oldest buck surveyed by Az G&F, at 9 1/2 years on this early hunt in 12 a-w.Apply You won't draw unless You do.Good Luck www.silvergrandoutfitters.com
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HillbillyNnevada
Guest
Elmacho,
How did your hunt on the Kaibab go?
Every year I am tempted to just go for one of the early hunts but I always talk myself out of it.
How did your hunt on the Kaibab go?
Every year I am tempted to just go for one of the early hunts but I always talk myself out of it.
Hillbilly
Before the bonus points for deer existed, I applied once for the early hunt because I grew weary of never drawing a late tag. There was lots of deep snow and deer were down low. At first light I passed on a buck that had a large body, thick neck, heavy gray face and heavy antler bases. I passed on him because I could not see his rack that was hidden in the trees. All I could see were the first 4-5 inches or so. He eventually ran off without giving me a look at his rack. Turns out I should have shot him.
He was the only mature buck that I saw. There were plenty of thin antlered, pencil necked deer. Almost every camp had young bucks hanging in them. Gut piles everywhere and crows kawing.
If you look at the stats, most bucks killed on the early hunts are 2 1/2 years old. But somebody always gets lucky. I saw one heavy non-typical at the Jacob Lake parking lot and another very wide rack protruding above the bed of a pick-up.
In a nutshell, it's mostly a meat deer hunt but a few big ones are taken.
Before the bonus points for deer existed, I applied once for the early hunt because I grew weary of never drawing a late tag. There was lots of deep snow and deer were down low. At first light I passed on a buck that had a large body, thick neck, heavy gray face and heavy antler bases. I passed on him because I could not see his rack that was hidden in the trees. All I could see were the first 4-5 inches or so. He eventually ran off without giving me a look at his rack. Turns out I should have shot him.
He was the only mature buck that I saw. There were plenty of thin antlered, pencil necked deer. Almost every camp had young bucks hanging in them. Gut piles everywhere and crows kawing.
If you look at the stats, most bucks killed on the early hunts are 2 1/2 years old. But somebody always gets lucky. I saw one heavy non-typical at the Jacob Lake parking lot and another very wide rack protruding above the bed of a pick-up.
In a nutshell, it's mostly a meat deer hunt but a few big ones are taken.
DonMartin
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Pioche:
If you're looking for a BIG buck, not the hunt to put in for.
Most of the 4 X 4's taken are 16-22 inches.
While there are a handful of good bucks taken each year, it is done mostly by pure luck.
Send me a pm at [email protected] and I'll show you some bucks that were taken last year on that early westside hunt.
It truly is a glorified meat hunt, but hey you're hunting and there is always the chance...
Don Martin
Arizona Wildlife Outfitters
"Hunting the Kaibab since 1972"
If you're looking for a BIG buck, not the hunt to put in for.
Most of the 4 X 4's taken are 16-22 inches.
While there are a handful of good bucks taken each year, it is done mostly by pure luck.
Send me a pm at [email protected] and I'll show you some bucks that were taken last year on that early westside hunt.
It truly is a glorified meat hunt, but hey you're hunting and there is always the chance...
Don Martin
Arizona Wildlife Outfitters
"Hunting the Kaibab since 1972"
OutdoorWriter
Long Time Member
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If you're looking for a BIG buck, not the hunt to put in for.
Most of the 4 X 4's taken are 16-22 inches.
While there are a handful of good bucks taken each year, it is done mostly by pure luck.
Why is that, Don?
TONY MANDILE
How To Hunt Coues Deer
Most of the 4 X 4's taken are 16-22 inches.
While there are a handful of good bucks taken each year, it is done mostly by pure luck.
Why is that, Don?
TONY MANDILE
How To Hunt Coues Deer
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hunter1
Guest
as outdoor writer said why is that don, i highly disagree with that statement, even on the early hunt a guy can take a giant if he is willing to put in the time we i have hunted that hunt 3 times and all 3 times we have taken bucks over 180, and a freind of mine killed a 220 non typical 2 years ago. big bucks are were big bucks are if you only hunt from the road then expect to kill a little deer, you may have to search many places before you find them but it can be done, the problem is everyone thinks you just drive up there and kill a big buck its not the case hell the strip isnt even that way, you are just putting your self in for an area that has produced the quality of buck you want to harvest then it is up to you to do the home work and foot work to find em. just my two cents worth. good luck and work hard.
DonMartin
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Guys:
I am well aware that there are some really good bucks up there on the early hunt--they have to be--we get them on the late hunt so they don't just "appear" during that later time frame.
What I'm saying is that the "average" buck taken there on the early is probably 2 1/2 years old and is a three or four point that will sport antlers from 16-22 inches wide.
That's my statement and that comes from hunting there since 1972. I'll bet that G&F data will back that up to.
That hunt by design is to remove what they consider "excess" bucks from the population. It is not a "trophy" hunt.
Oh yes, a few bigger bucks are always taken on this hunt, but from people that I talk to who have taken them, it is usually more of an accident than by purpose.
Case in point. Last year the two best bucks I heard about taken on the early hunt were taken just that way, by pure coincidence, driving down a two track early in the morning.
Hey, I am all for folks going on this hunt and God Bless you if you take big bucks.
I'm talking about the average hunter, with little to no scout time, who is there for three to four days.
Those that are willing to take the time to scout, walk in to the quiet areas should do better, but lets face it, you think the "Average" hunter is going to do that?
Nope, not going to happen.
I will respectively disagree with anyone (Just my opinion) who thinks or says the early hunt is anywhere close to being as good as the late hunt.
Don Martin
I am well aware that there are some really good bucks up there on the early hunt--they have to be--we get them on the late hunt so they don't just "appear" during that later time frame.
What I'm saying is that the "average" buck taken there on the early is probably 2 1/2 years old and is a three or four point that will sport antlers from 16-22 inches wide.
That's my statement and that comes from hunting there since 1972. I'll bet that G&F data will back that up to.
That hunt by design is to remove what they consider "excess" bucks from the population. It is not a "trophy" hunt.
Oh yes, a few bigger bucks are always taken on this hunt, but from people that I talk to who have taken them, it is usually more of an accident than by purpose.
Case in point. Last year the two best bucks I heard about taken on the early hunt were taken just that way, by pure coincidence, driving down a two track early in the morning.
Hey, I am all for folks going on this hunt and God Bless you if you take big bucks.
I'm talking about the average hunter, with little to no scout time, who is there for three to four days.
Those that are willing to take the time to scout, walk in to the quiet areas should do better, but lets face it, you think the "Average" hunter is going to do that?
Nope, not going to happen.
I will respectively disagree with anyone (Just my opinion) who thinks or says the early hunt is anywhere close to being as good as the late hunt.
Don Martin
OutdoorWriter
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But you still haven't explained WHY you think this happens.
P.S. -- Actually, I do have the numbers as compiled by G&F. I'm up against a deadline right now but will post them later today.
TONY MANDILE
How To Hunt Coues Deer
P.S. -- Actually, I do have the numbers as compiled by G&F. I'm up against a deadline right now but will post them later today.
TONY MANDILE
How To Hunt Coues Deer
Your question is not meant for me but I have an opinion why.
In the early hunt there are nearly a thousand tags issued and that creates alot of comotion up there. Trucks and quads scouting the roads, campfires and voices/laughter, doors slamming, tent stakes hammered into the ground, etc, etc.
The big boys hear, see and smell whats coming and they find some nasty hell hole and become nocturnal. The little ones are stupid and end up on the meat pole.
The late hunt is at or near the rut, usually gets weather to send them lower AND there's only a small handful of tags issued.
The forest is quiet.
In the early hunt there are nearly a thousand tags issued and that creates alot of comotion up there. Trucks and quads scouting the roads, campfires and voices/laughter, doors slamming, tent stakes hammered into the ground, etc, etc.
The big boys hear, see and smell whats coming and they find some nasty hell hole and become nocturnal. The little ones are stupid and end up on the meat pole.
The late hunt is at or near the rut, usually gets weather to send them lower AND there's only a small handful of tags issued.
The forest is quiet.
FELLAS......THE BAB IS NOT THE HUNT IT USED TO BE......FACE THE MUSIC......WAY TOO MANY DEER TAGS ISSUED THERE AMONG OTHER PROBLEMS W/ THE DEER HERD.
I HUNTED THE LATE 12A WEST HUNT IN 2008.....WITH SOME WEATHER. I MUST HAVE BEEN IN A GOOD AREA AS A FEW OUTFITTERS WHERE THERE AS WELL. HUNTER ALL OVER THE UNIT ONE DAY SHORT OF THE FULL SEASON........NEVER SAW A BIG BUCK OR ANY HUNTER WITH A BIG BUCK. AFTER A 12 YEAR/POINT WAIT......WE WERE REALLY DISAPOINTED. THERE ARE MANY UNITS IN OTHER STATES I WOULD RATHER HAVE A TAG FOR THAT THE KAIBAB. I WOULD NOT CONSIDER GOING BACK........BUT IT DOES HAVE THE "BIG" NAME. NOW....ELK IN ARIZONA ....THATS A DIFFERENT STORY.....YD.
I HUNTED THE LATE 12A WEST HUNT IN 2008.....WITH SOME WEATHER. I MUST HAVE BEEN IN A GOOD AREA AS A FEW OUTFITTERS WHERE THERE AS WELL. HUNTER ALL OVER THE UNIT ONE DAY SHORT OF THE FULL SEASON........NEVER SAW A BIG BUCK OR ANY HUNTER WITH A BIG BUCK. AFTER A 12 YEAR/POINT WAIT......WE WERE REALLY DISAPOINTED. THERE ARE MANY UNITS IN OTHER STATES I WOULD RATHER HAVE A TAG FOR THAT THE KAIBAB. I WOULD NOT CONSIDER GOING BACK........BUT IT DOES HAVE THE "BIG" NAME. NOW....ELK IN ARIZONA ....THATS A DIFFERENT STORY.....YD.
Tony I'll take a stab at your question why there doesn't seem to be as many big bucks and it all boils down to two words Management and drought. It hasn't been managed as a large deer unit for most of the last decade, but as the departments cash cow, since we've had huge declines in huntable numbers for other species. Couple that with the fact they were overly concerned with overpopulation in drought conditions and killed too many does and small bucks. It's been a downward spiral up there for some time and since they got their increases it's time we get back to sound management again. that's my $.02
DonMartin
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LAST EDITED ON Jun-04-09 AT 04:35PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-04-09 AT 04:34?PM (MST)
Gentlemen:
I just looked at the site and too all--well said!
My comment was just that the early hunt isn't a trophy hunt, plain and simple and probably for the reasons the other guys listed.
The big guys are still there--we know that--but they are fairly adept at staying hid with all the commotion and activity, while the late hunt and the rut no doubt causes them to loose some of their "safety savey".
Some guys on here say they do real well on the early hunt. Good!
I'm not doubting anyone cause I have seen some boomers taken on the early hunt since 1972 when I first hunted up there.
When we speak of that hunt, I think one should realize what the "average" hunter can expect, and if you're going up there with little to no scouting, not much knowledge about the area, and the deer movements at that time, then I say don't expect to see boomers behind every Ponderosa.
Knowing what is normally taken on those hunts (Tony will post that info for us later I assume) should give a person some reasonable expectations.
With over 700 tags per year given out there should be a lot of guys out there that have hunted on this hunt that can give us their insight. I have been there almost every year with a friend or a hunter or two, so I do have a little experience there.
One thing that is certain is that a 2 1/2-year-old buck that gets an arrow in his gizzard or a 165 grain slug in the lungs will NEVER grow up to his full potential.
The Kaibab is a deer factory, plain and simple.
There are those out there (Arizona Deer Association for one) who has been pushing G&F to let the Kaibab produce those big guys.
Many years ago one department biologist told me that if you want big bucks in any area you have to have a buck/doe ratio that is pretty close, and that the total numbers of deer have to be strictly controlled.
He said that was the reason why he felt that does up there needed to be harvested. Course there was always was and probably still is the argument of what is the carrying capacity of the Kaibab deer herd?
Anyway, I've rambled on enough for now.
Sure would like to hear from others (outfitter/guides too!) and their thoughts about the early Kaibab deer hunts.
Don Martin
P.S. Our best early rifle buck to date on the early hunt is a 28 1/4 inch wide super heavy 4 X 4 that scored just over 190. When we got him, he was following a doe with a spike like a dog in heat!
Gentlemen:
I just looked at the site and too all--well said!
My comment was just that the early hunt isn't a trophy hunt, plain and simple and probably for the reasons the other guys listed.
The big guys are still there--we know that--but they are fairly adept at staying hid with all the commotion and activity, while the late hunt and the rut no doubt causes them to loose some of their "safety savey".
Some guys on here say they do real well on the early hunt. Good!
I'm not doubting anyone cause I have seen some boomers taken on the early hunt since 1972 when I first hunted up there.
When we speak of that hunt, I think one should realize what the "average" hunter can expect, and if you're going up there with little to no scouting, not much knowledge about the area, and the deer movements at that time, then I say don't expect to see boomers behind every Ponderosa.
Knowing what is normally taken on those hunts (Tony will post that info for us later I assume) should give a person some reasonable expectations.
With over 700 tags per year given out there should be a lot of guys out there that have hunted on this hunt that can give us their insight. I have been there almost every year with a friend or a hunter or two, so I do have a little experience there.
One thing that is certain is that a 2 1/2-year-old buck that gets an arrow in his gizzard or a 165 grain slug in the lungs will NEVER grow up to his full potential.
The Kaibab is a deer factory, plain and simple.
There are those out there (Arizona Deer Association for one) who has been pushing G&F to let the Kaibab produce those big guys.
Many years ago one department biologist told me that if you want big bucks in any area you have to have a buck/doe ratio that is pretty close, and that the total numbers of deer have to be strictly controlled.
He said that was the reason why he felt that does up there needed to be harvested. Course there was always was and probably still is the argument of what is the carrying capacity of the Kaibab deer herd?
Anyway, I've rambled on enough for now.
Sure would like to hear from others (outfitter/guides too!) and their thoughts about the early Kaibab deer hunts.
Don Martin
P.S. Our best early rifle buck to date on the early hunt is a 28 1/4 inch wide super heavy 4 X 4 that scored just over 190. When we got him, he was following a doe with a spike like a dog in heat!
I've lived in AZ all my life and last year was the first time I've ever hunted the Kaibab. My wife drew the early east side hunt. I must say it was certainly an experience.
After spending 5 days up there for her hunt and learning a little about the area it seems as though most people don't expect to shoot a monster up there. If that were the case, then why do many of the camps already have small 3 and 4 points hanging the first day?
We hunted 5 days and we did see some pretty good deer. Nothing at 200" but 2 that were probably 180".
I personally will be applying for the early hunt up there after I draw a late tag.
"I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money.
You can keep the "change"!"
After spending 5 days up there for her hunt and learning a little about the area it seems as though most people don't expect to shoot a monster up there. If that were the case, then why do many of the camps already have small 3 and 4 points hanging the first day?
We hunted 5 days and we did see some pretty good deer. Nothing at 200" but 2 that were probably 180".
I personally will be applying for the early hunt up there after I draw a late tag.
"I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money.
You can keep the "change"!"
azbiggame
Very Active Member
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Have We gotten off the Original ???.I think we/you have.Pioche asked,"What are the odds with 4 bonus points for deer, to draw the early Kaibab hunt"?
The first few answers were on topic,then went a little off.Nobody should think that the Early hunt compares to the Late hunt for Quality,but as stated there is always the chance at a "Big Boy".The early hunts in 12a-w and 12a-e are average deer hunts,but with a little help from "Mother Nature" can turn into a Good deer hunt.
a first time hunter to the "Kaibab Plateau" or a novice Mule Deer hunter odds will increase with Local or Pro Help,this is for sure on the Early deer hunt.
The N.R. rifle hunter without "Max" bonus points doesn't have a lot of options in Az under the current draw system and wanting to hunt the "Best" units North of the Big Ditch.Apply and see some Beautiful country and go on a Good Az Mule deer hunt and just MAYBE --- Good Luck this Fall
The first few answers were on topic,then went a little off.Nobody should think that the Early hunt compares to the Late hunt for Quality,but as stated there is always the chance at a "Big Boy".The early hunts in 12a-w and 12a-e are average deer hunts,but with a little help from "Mother Nature" can turn into a Good deer hunt.
a first time hunter to the "Kaibab Plateau" or a novice Mule Deer hunter odds will increase with Local or Pro Help,this is for sure on the Early deer hunt.
The N.R. rifle hunter without "Max" bonus points doesn't have a lot of options in Az under the current draw system and wanting to hunt the "Best" units North of the Big Ditch.Apply and see some Beautiful country and go on a Good Az Mule deer hunt and just MAYBE --- Good Luck this Fall
OutdoorWriter
Long Time Member
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Since it appears this is destined to become another "let's bash G&F's mismanagement," thread. I'll gracefully bow out.
You guys have fun.
TONY MANDILE
How To Hunt Coues Deer
You guys have fun.
TONY MANDILE
How To Hunt Coues Deer
LAST EDITED ON Jun-04-09 AT 06:47PM (MST)[p]Gee Tony financial hardships and cash flow causes all federal and state agencies to manage things differently. You do what you have to do to keep things running. Sticking our heads in the sand isn't going to make anything better either. They have the monies they now need to approach the situation differently. Don't you think that having 40,000++ fewer deer tags statewide as well as fewer antelope and elk tags and decreased license sales forced them to manage Kaibab differently. If you honestly can't believe that they knew what potential that plateau has to bounce back then you're looking thru a jaded lens. I didn't bash them but the facts are the facts and taking more deer up there because they had to was a fiscal certainty. Couple that with the drought and that's why were at where we're at today. It's cause and effect in it's purest form and you and I both know that they could have very easily left more deer in that herd and would have if things may have been different and I doubt that the department is totally responsible for what happened since they take a lot of direction from the commission. There's a major difference between management and mismanagement and sometimes taking aggressive steps is part of management especially when you have funds being swept away that effect your operational revenues and you need to take a hard line to keep the business running. You think our parks would be in the shape they're in if they didn't have some of the same issues?
DonMartin
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Come on Tony, not like you to bow out of a discussion..
I think this is a good discussion on the values of applying--especially as a NR under the current draw system--for an early Kaibab deer tag and if you do, what you should expect.
I'd like to see the data you have on the age of the bucks taken on those hunts, am I wrong in stating that the vast majority are in the 2 1/2 year old range?
Cause that is what I've been told and for sure what you see hanging in most camps on those early hunts.
I got 10 bonus points and am putting in just for the Strip, but I guarantee you that after I draw that tag, the its the 12B muzzleloader and the 12A west (early) tags I'll be after.
And as Bruce correctly stated, with our current draw system for NR's, if they got less than max bonus points, then the only way they'll draw a tag north of the "ditch" is to apply for the early hunts (either east or west).
Fact or fiction?
Since we have a new "sheriff" in town and a G&F Commission that is willing to take a look at some different ideas up there, I think it is important that sportsmen stay engaged in this discussion about the management strategy on the Kaibab.
Not Dept. or Commission bashing that I see here, just commenting on the value of these early hunts and trying to give those that are still undecided about whether to apply for these tags a true sense of what they will see and experience, should they draw the tag.
Don Martin
I think this is a good discussion on the values of applying--especially as a NR under the current draw system--for an early Kaibab deer tag and if you do, what you should expect.
I'd like to see the data you have on the age of the bucks taken on those hunts, am I wrong in stating that the vast majority are in the 2 1/2 year old range?
Cause that is what I've been told and for sure what you see hanging in most camps on those early hunts.
I got 10 bonus points and am putting in just for the Strip, but I guarantee you that after I draw that tag, the its the 12B muzzleloader and the 12A west (early) tags I'll be after.
And as Bruce correctly stated, with our current draw system for NR's, if they got less than max bonus points, then the only way they'll draw a tag north of the "ditch" is to apply for the early hunts (either east or west).
Fact or fiction?
Since we have a new "sheriff" in town and a G&F Commission that is willing to take a look at some different ideas up there, I think it is important that sportsmen stay engaged in this discussion about the management strategy on the Kaibab.
Not Dept. or Commission bashing that I see here, just commenting on the value of these early hunts and trying to give those that are still undecided about whether to apply for these tags a true sense of what they will see and experience, should they draw the tag.
Don Martin
Don or Tony,
From reading past discussions it seems as though the G&F did not know, or at least say they did not know, that the 20% pass would only allow those with max points to draw certain tags.
Now that it has come to light the past couple years do they have any plans on changing it so every NR has a chance at any tag? Or is this something that will stay? It doesn't really matter to me because I am a resident, just curious.
"I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money.
You can keep the "change"!"
From reading past discussions it seems as though the G&F did not know, or at least say they did not know, that the 20% pass would only allow those with max points to draw certain tags.
Now that it has come to light the past couple years do they have any plans on changing it so every NR has a chance at any tag? Or is this something that will stay? It doesn't really matter to me because I am a resident, just curious.
"I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money.
You can keep the "change"!"
muleymaddness
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It seems that Dept is on the track to actually lose money under the current plan in the long run. I applied this year for a point for elk and deer, but mainly because elk. Next year, I'll be thinking very hard about whether or not to enter AZ just knowing that fact that w/out max points, I won't ever draw a premium tag in my life. You take away that chance (as it is currently) and I probably won't be purchasing a license to get a point going forward. Personally, from the research I've gathered, it's not worth it to the non resident to be buying the license to build points if it's mule deer that is the main species they're after. Elk is different, but spending the $150 for a point to possibly draw an early tag on the Kaibab isn't worth it to me. That's what'll cost the dept money - when more people (nonresidents) start having this same attitude and quit applying for AZ.
P
pioche
Guest
hey guys started this topic to see if i had a shot at kaibab. 2008 had maximum points drew a 12b late, second choice. Wish would of held out for 13b but hey its over. Drove through the kaibab liked the country, would love to hunt it again. Hey Don Martin me and my wife hunted with you in 05, unit 10 archery bull with Erik. Tammy killed big bull. Do you think they will open up better odds for nonresident? Thanks for the great response.
Mike.
Mike.
Open up better odds? What do you all think will happen to the odds if they clean the slate of bonus points and everyone has an equal shot. Just asking? I'll tell you what I think will happen. In my opinion, the 2% shot at a Strip or late Kaibab tag will go to 1%. You have a ton of people putting in now gathering points, hoping to get drawn but knowing they probably won't. Every year they inch a little closer to the max pool and they are fine with their Strip or bust or Kaibab or bust applications. There is also alot of people that don't get in the game because they haven't accumulated the necessary points to have much of a shot. Just a guess but I believe if they wipe the slate clean, an impossible hunt to draw will get further away, not closer. Although not perfect they probably have the system that works best.
muleymaddness
Very Active Member
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LAST EDITED ON Jun-05-09 AT 07:28AM (MST)[p]Wetmule - how do you figure 2% odds will go to 1% odds? The way I see it, withouth max points, a late tag has 0% odds for the nonresident. If I was looking right, all late tags went to max point holders which gives me a chance of 0% drawing without max points. Anything they did to the system would increase my odds the way I see it.
R
redrabbit
Guest
RE: Kaibab points
Tagsoup,
I believe some people like Carter have/are trying to get the 10% NR cap split like you said so those NR without max points have at least some chance in the draw. I think it would be a fair change. I have not heard where this measure stands with AZG&F.
Doug~RR
Tagsoup,
I believe some people like Carter have/are trying to get the 10% NR cap split like you said so those NR without max points have at least some chance in the draw. I think it would be a fair change. I have not heard where this measure stands with AZG&F.
Doug~RR
DonMartin
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Wow!
Got to love the discussion here!
Mike & Tammy, good to hear from you, bet when you posted you never thought this discussion would occur!
Hey, I remember you burned all your deer bonus points (you had max if I recall) in 12B, how was that hunt? Never did hear.
Anyway, some of the posts are correct when it comes to NR's being able to draw a premium tag above the ditch.
AS many of you know, I purchase the list of successful applicants from G&F each year, and there is no doubt that only those with MAX bonus points are the ones with the PREMIUM tags (13B,12A West Late)for example.
Yes, NR's with less than max points can and do draw the 12A west (early) and the 12A east(early) tags.
But as we know, these are not generally known as PREMIUM tags.
And that is it in a nutshell.
Still a good hunt, but as it has been pointed out, some would question if it is worth over $150 per year for a deer bonus point or application for that particular hunt if you are a non-resident. That's up to you to decide.
That being said, it is better than MOST of the general hunts south of the ditch, with a few notable exceptions, in my opinion.
I have brought up the "fairness" issue to G&F in the past concerning those NR without max points being locked out of the draws for premium hunts and the response was lets just say, would be viewed as less than favorable as far as NR are concerned.
I suspect that until the dept. sees an economic impact from large numbers of NR's shying away from Arizona due to the this practice, nothing will change.
And from what I've heard NR applications and license purchases are still slowly going up--not down, so I guess you can figure out where this is all going.
That's one reason why I tell NR to use that $151 license and apply for many, and not just one species.
Arizona has excellent elk, sheep, antelope, Gould's turkey, and javelina hunts, plus some good small game opportunities.
That's what I do in Nevada. I apply for them all to try and stretch my hunting license dollar just a little farther.
So to Mike and Tammy, yes apply for the early Kaibab, as if memory serves me right, the successful NR applicants have NOT hit the 10% cap on those hunts in recent years.
And while there will always be a chance to see a "boomer", just understand what the "average" buck taken there is, and enjoy the outdoor experience!
Don Martin
AWO
Got to love the discussion here!
Mike & Tammy, good to hear from you, bet when you posted you never thought this discussion would occur!
Hey, I remember you burned all your deer bonus points (you had max if I recall) in 12B, how was that hunt? Never did hear.
Anyway, some of the posts are correct when it comes to NR's being able to draw a premium tag above the ditch.
AS many of you know, I purchase the list of successful applicants from G&F each year, and there is no doubt that only those with MAX bonus points are the ones with the PREMIUM tags (13B,12A West Late)for example.
Yes, NR's with less than max points can and do draw the 12A west (early) and the 12A east(early) tags.
But as we know, these are not generally known as PREMIUM tags.
And that is it in a nutshell.
Still a good hunt, but as it has been pointed out, some would question if it is worth over $150 per year for a deer bonus point or application for that particular hunt if you are a non-resident. That's up to you to decide.
That being said, it is better than MOST of the general hunts south of the ditch, with a few notable exceptions, in my opinion.
I have brought up the "fairness" issue to G&F in the past concerning those NR without max points being locked out of the draws for premium hunts and the response was lets just say, would be viewed as less than favorable as far as NR are concerned.
I suspect that until the dept. sees an economic impact from large numbers of NR's shying away from Arizona due to the this practice, nothing will change.
And from what I've heard NR applications and license purchases are still slowly going up--not down, so I guess you can figure out where this is all going.
That's one reason why I tell NR to use that $151 license and apply for many, and not just one species.
Arizona has excellent elk, sheep, antelope, Gould's turkey, and javelina hunts, plus some good small game opportunities.
That's what I do in Nevada. I apply for them all to try and stretch my hunting license dollar just a little farther.
So to Mike and Tammy, yes apply for the early Kaibab, as if memory serves me right, the successful NR applicants have NOT hit the 10% cap on those hunts in recent years.
And while there will always be a chance to see a "boomer", just understand what the "average" buck taken there is, and enjoy the outdoor experience!
Don Martin
AWO
Wow i really have to disagree with most of you here. I had a early 12aw tag in 05 when they issued 1000. I heard it was going to be a tough hunt and I should shoot the first good 4 point I see, I even had a torn acl at the time. Made a few phone calls to some friends and a couple of scouting trips before the hunt. When the hunt started I couldn't believe it, there were people all over the roads shooting at forkies like they were trophies, In fact one day down around sowatts I had glass up 3 good bucks, one well over 30 inches when two guys drove up in a jeep within a 100 yards of the deer. They got out and the deer got on there hands and knees and crawled in a big bush, they shot at a forkie from the road, missed and got back in there jeep and took off and the deer I was watching went back to feeding. After about the seventh day the place was a ghost town and alot of good deer started to show up. I ended up shooting a 179 nontipical with a dropper on the last day, because the 33 inch 190plus buck I was hunting went out three different ways the last three days. I think its a great hunt if your willing to be patient and hunt hard.
AZBuckSnort
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,075
The bottom line, 12AW Early is like any hunt...it is what YOU make of it. Personally, I think it is a grand time of year to be in northern Arizona.
Mike, This is Eric. How have you been? Say hi to Tammy for me. My opinion is that you won't win if you don't play. The early Kiabab hunt aren't known for producing great bucks consistently but they are there. If you get early snow, like a couple of years ago, it can be an amazing hunt! There were some pigs taken early! If the snow doesn't fly you will still have a great hunt. Scout hard, hunt hard, and you will have a sucessful hunt regardless. No matter what happens on the hunt, or what you do or don't kill, it beats sitting at home wishing you could be hunting the Kiabab. Take care and good luck in the draw!!!
P
pioche
Guest
don m
have you updated a website with any new pictures of any game lately. havent seen anything new and was wondering if i needed a new web address. as for 12b late .. i hunted hard got a 170 class 4x5. all in all it was a great hunt, no regrets just want to get on to some more deer huntin'.
ps ill be in touch im goin to get the wife and some other family members down there for the hunters ed class.
mike
have you updated a website with any new pictures of any game lately. havent seen anything new and was wondering if i needed a new web address. as for 12b late .. i hunted hard got a 170 class 4x5. all in all it was a great hunt, no regrets just want to get on to some more deer huntin'.
ps ill be in touch im goin to get the wife and some other family members down there for the hunters ed class.
mike
P
pioche
Guest
eric
nice hearing from you. have you been busy doing your guiding? how is work down in az? did you ever start putting in for any hunts in nevada? if so let me know. still have the picture of you and tammy with the bull as our screensaver to the computer. like i said it was good hearing from you stay in touch.
mike
nice hearing from you. have you been busy doing your guiding? how is work down in az? did you ever start putting in for any hunts in nevada? if so let me know. still have the picture of you and tammy with the bull as our screensaver to the computer. like i said it was good hearing from you stay in touch.
mike
DonMartin
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,077
Mike:
We have changed websites..We are in the process of building a new one. It is www.arizonawildlifeoutfitters.com
I blanked in Nevada this year..didn't even get a turkey tag, oh well some day, right?
The next NR hunter ed class is January 9, 2010 here in Kingman.
Yep, ought to take it, every point does count.
Don Martin
We have changed websites..We are in the process of building a new one. It is www.arizonawildlifeoutfitters.com
I blanked in Nevada this year..didn't even get a turkey tag, oh well some day, right?
The next NR hunter ed class is January 9, 2010 here in Kingman.
Yep, ought to take it, every point does count.
Don Martin
S
SirGlassalot
Guest
There is no place in the world I would rather hunt than the Kaibab. I guess because of the memories I have of the place. But I'm starting to get frustrated. I've hunted 12AW 5 times, starting when I was 15 back in '82 (2 late hunts and 3 early). My Grandpa lived in Az and we would put in with him every year and that seemed to be the trick for getting drawn.
The last time we were drawn was in '94 for a late hunt. Grandpa, my Dad, Brother, and me. We didn't get any 'monsters' but we all tagged out with nice deer. It was the last time we hunted with Grandpa. After that, the 20% NR cap was put in place and I haven't been drawn since. My Grandpa has since passed away but I still have been trying like heck to get a 12AW late tag. I'm the only one out of our family that still applies. My Dad and Brother quit wasting their money. I'm starting to think that was the smart thing to do.
Last year we were buying a house and I just couldn't come up with the money so I skipped Az for the first time since '94. I noticed this year that I had only 9 points and 12 was max (I haven't taken the Az safety course yet). I called AZGF, and the lady told me that I missed out on 2 points in the draw last year because of the loyalty point. Well great. I was not happy, but I figured I still had a shot because only 20% of the tags go to max point holders. Now from what I'm gathering from the posts above, the 10% NR cap tags are included in that 20%??? Is this true?????
The last time we were drawn was in '94 for a late hunt. Grandpa, my Dad, Brother, and me. We didn't get any 'monsters' but we all tagged out with nice deer. It was the last time we hunted with Grandpa. After that, the 20% NR cap was put in place and I haven't been drawn since. My Grandpa has since passed away but I still have been trying like heck to get a 12AW late tag. I'm the only one out of our family that still applies. My Dad and Brother quit wasting their money. I'm starting to think that was the smart thing to do.
Last year we were buying a house and I just couldn't come up with the money so I skipped Az for the first time since '94. I noticed this year that I had only 9 points and 12 was max (I haven't taken the Az safety course yet). I called AZGF, and the lady told me that I missed out on 2 points in the draw last year because of the loyalty point. Well great. I was not happy, but I figured I still had a shot because only 20% of the tags go to max point holders. Now from what I'm gathering from the posts above, the 10% NR cap tags are included in that 20%??? Is this true?????
S
SirGlassalot
Guest
Thanks azbiggame. Looks like I screwed myself by missing last years draw.
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