Knives

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Hiker of the Woods

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I am looking for a great all around hunting knife for big game. Here is a list of knives that I was looking at and was wondering what thoughts or experiences anyone has had with these knives. Thanks for helping me decide on what knife to buy.

A.G. Russell? Cocobolo San Mai Drop Point ($235)

I have been drawing pictures of knives for all of seventy years, but it was not until the late 1960s when Robert W. (Bob) Loveless, the World's premier designer of hunting and combat knives, taught me how he developed a knife design that I began to design instead of just drawing pictures.
This Drop Point Hunter has had more serious thought than I have ever given a hunting knife before. The drop point blade with a core of VG-10 at 59-61 Rc., supported by a softer stainless on each side, is dropped into a forward tilt to make working inside an animal's hide easier, with less possibility for error that might damage the hide. There is a tiny choil that allows the entire edge to be sharpened. The amount of curve (belly) in the forward part of the blade is important, both for skinning and for general cutting. The 4-1/8" blade is long enough to skin any animal that you have the patience to skin.
Both the shape and the design of the handle deserve your attention as well. The hilt (guard) is quite trim, just long enough to protect your hand from the edge, yet not long enough to get in the way when you are doing delicate work. And it is wide enough to be engraved. The butt is there not only for looks but also to bring the balance point back onto the handle about an inch from the blade, putting more weight in your hand. This gives the blade a feather touch so you have total control of the edge and the point. The handle itself is slim at the front, with a swell in the center and a flare at the butt for comfort and control. This knife will fit your hand as no other knife has. The blade measures 1-3/16" wide at the widest point. The knife measures 8-1/2" tip to butt and weighs about 6.5 oz. Made in Japan. Includes a high quality brown leather sheath.

A. G. Russell? San Mai Drop Point Hunter Ebony ($295)

One of the advantages to having our own knife shop is the ability to produce knives with many different handle materials to suit customers taste. We have created the A. G. Russell? San Mai Drop Point Hunter with this program in mind. While there are many different handle materials available, we have chosen three different ones (Ebony, Giraffe Bone and Pink Ivory), each with mosaic pins of stainless and copper to complement the color of the handle scales. The ebony is an exotic wood from Mozambique, the pink ivory is a dense wood from South Africa with a naturally occurring pink color and the Giraffe Bone is in its natural color. It has been stabilized but not dyed.
The 4-1/8" drop point blade with a core of VG-10 at 59-61 Rc., supported by a softer stainless on each side, is designed to skin any animal you have the patience to skin. There is a tiny choil that allows the entire edge to be sharpened. The hilt (guard) is quite trim, just long enough to protect your hand from the edge, yet not long enough to get in the way when you are doing delicate work. The weight of the butt brings the balance point back onto the handle about an inch from the blade, putting more weight in your hand. This gives the blade a feather touch so you have total control of the edge and the point. The handle itself is slim at the front, with a swell in the center and a flare at the butt for comfort and control. Measures 8-1/2" tip to butt and weighs about 6.5 oz. Made in Japan and finished in our shop in Rogers, Arkansas. Includes a high quality handmade brown leather sheath

D. H. Russell Canadian Camp Survival Knife ($90)

In the late 1950s, D. H. Russell, owner of a cutlery store in Toronto, designed the Original Canadian Belt Knife. Demand for this design was so great that he brought an experienced cutler from Czechoslovakia to make the knives. Rudolf Grohmann and his family came to Canada, founded Grohmann Knives, of Pictou, Nova Scotia, and have produced all of the D. H. Russell Belt Knives from the beginning.
The Canadian Survival Knife is a large knife with a 5-1/2" blade of 3/16" high carbon stainless, with Rosewood handles. Measures 10-1/4" overall. Weighs 7.2 oz. Useful for camp chores and as a big game butchering and skinning tool. A favorite among big game hunters the world over. Leather Sheath.

Breeden knives- Not sure what model or prices.

Canal Street Cutlery D'Holder Integral Hunter ($225)

Late in 2007, Canal Street Cutlery introduced an exciting new design by well-known knifemaker D'Alton Holder. The cast integral hilt/bolster and 3-1/2" mirror polished drop point blade is 19C27 Swedish stainless at 60-62 Rc. For this A. G. Russell? Exclusive, the handle scales are our own carefully selected cocobolo with a coined nickel silver Canal Street shield. This is a great knife for the collector or for the hunter with a great edge holding steel that will hold up extremely well in the field. Measures 7-3/8" tip to butt and weighs 5.4 oz. The serial number, 19C27 and U. S. A is marked on the spine of the blade otherwise the blade is unmarked. Includes a brown leather pouch style belt sheath. Made in the U.S.A.

Dozier Buffalo River Hunter Green Micarta ($215)

The Dozier Buffalo River Hunter was introduced late in 2005. It is a drop point hunter that was designed for A. G. Russell customers. At the time it was introduced, Desert Ironwood was plentiful. It is a wonderful handle material, but has become increasingly hard to find forcing Bob to look for other suitable handle material. He has found a source of Cocobolo that has as much striking contrast in grain, perhaps more, as the finest Desert Ironwood. Buffalo Hunters are now available with Cocolobo and Green Linen Micarta?. Like all of Bob's standard hollow ground hunting knives, these are hand ground in Bob's shop on grinders designed and built by him.
The blade shape is one of the best drop point designs I have ever seen. It is long enough to be a general hunting and camping knife with enough belly to make a good skinning knife but enough straight for splitting kindling and making fuzz sticks. There is no such thing as a knife that will do everything, but this one comes as close as you can get in a hunting knife. The blade measures 3-3/4" long and 15/16" wide of D-2 tool steel with Bob's personal fantastic edge holding heat-treat (60-61 Rc.), possibly the sharpest and best edge holding knife in the knife world today. Measures 8-3/16" tip to butt and weighs 4.9 oz. with Micarta? handle and 4.5 oz. with Cocobolo. Includes a Kydex? sheath of Bob's own design and made in his shop. As great a value in a handmade hunting knife as you can find. We attempt to keep Dozier knives that we include in our catalog on our shelves. They are so popular that we often run out.

Dozier Professional Guides Knife - Wilderness Sheath ($270)

Bob Dozier's Professional Guide's Knife was developed for the professional packer or guide who works in remote areas and does not want to carry more than one knife. This knife is large enough to do the whole job on any big game animal as well as camp chores. It will also have a good edge when other knives have become dull. Using his standard D2 at 60+ Rc, which he heat treats in his own shop to assure quality control, Bob has produced a man sized knife. Both the blade and the handle are larger than most of his knives. This knife is perfectly suited to the man with large hands, or regular hands, with big jobs to do.
The 4-3/4" clip point blade of 3/16" D2 hardened to 60-61 Rc. Black Micarta? handle scales and aircraft alloy pins and lanyard hole liner. Measures 9-3/16" tip to butt and weighs 6.9 oz. Available with Bob's Wilderness sheath with a nylon webbing belt loop.

Dozier Yukon Pro Skinner ($215)

The Bob Dozier Yukon Pro Skinner with Black Micarta? handle and horizontal belt sheath is a knife for the serious hunter, the man who makes his living in the woods. Instead of the traditional leather sheath that would over time get limp and rot, Bob builds precisely fitted sheaths of Kydex? for each knife. Without attention, the sheath will last as long as the knife, your lifetime and your son's. The knife itself is made of 1/8" hollow ground D2, hardened by Bob to 60-61Rc. Almost without exception, they are found to measure 60.5 Rc. It is not unusual for one of these knives to keep a usable edge through 6-10 big animals, not field dressing, but breaking briskets and reducing the animal to transportable size. The average hunter could sharpen his knife once a season and do fine. The pro will want to carry a small diamond sharpener or the A. G. Russell Field Sharpener to touch up the blade when many animals are coming into camp.
Better than any production knife and far less expensive than most of the handmade knives you will see. I recommend it highly.
With the 3-1/2" blade and the almost 7-7/8" overall length, this is about the minimum working knife for professionals, any one but Dozier would have to make it bigger. The handle is shaped into the distinctive form that Dozier uses for working knives, (as distinct from good looking knives). This blade and handle merge into a useful tool that could be used hour after hour, functioning efficiently and safely. Weighs 5.7 oz. in sheath.
With the 3-1/2" blade and the almost 7-7/8" overall length, this is about the minimum working knife for professionals, any one but Dozier would have to make it bigger. The handle is shaped into the distinctive form that Dozier uses for working knives, (as distinct from good looking knives). This blade and handle merge into a useful tool that could be used hour after hour, functioning efficiently and safely. Weighs 5.7 oz. in sheath.

Dozier Straight Personal Coral Rucarta? ($195)

To most of the people reading this Bob Dozier's knives speak for themselves. The D2 high-carbon, high-chrome tool steel, hardened to 60-62 Rockwell, really holds an edge and the Dozier Kydex? sheaths that are molded to each knife hold the knife until the owner removes it with the magic release that Bob has designed into it. The flawless fitting of the handle material, in this case a Coral Rucarta?, and the no frills finish that allows a handmade knife to be sold at prices that might grace many of today's production knives, make this a very attractive knife from many points of view. These knives can be ordered with left handed sheaths.
Bob's concept of a personal knife is a knife that can be carried day in and day out; a knife that is never in the way but is always instantly available. 2-7/8" blade, 6-3/4" overall length. Horizontal black Kydex? sheath. Weighs 4.4 oz.

Dozier White River Skinner ($205)

This White River Skinner, named for the White River National Forest in Colorado, is as suitable for skinning Beaver as it is for skinning Grizzly or Moose.
Once again, Bob Dozier has taken the complex and made it look simple. The subtle relationship between the cutting edge, the skinning belly, and the angle and shape of the handle, result in a knife that looks as if anyone could have designed it. Only when it is in the hand can you begin to appreciate how this knife will function in the field.
Using his favorite knife steel, D2, a high-carbon, high-chrome die steel, hardened to 60-61 Rc, Bob delivers a knife that will hold an edge better than any other in his price class. This model is handled in a black linen Micarta?. (Previously available only in Brown Linen Micarta?.)
The horizontal Kydex sheath is Bob's design, and utilizes his own break-out latch. You only have to put your thumb on top of the belt loop when you grip the handle and the knife comes easily from the sheath. This is as solid and safe a sheath as you can find. 3-1/2" skinning blade of 1/8" D2 stock. Overall length is 7-3/4". Weighs 6.2 oz. with sheath.

Dozier Slim Outdoorsman - Natural Rucarta Handle ($215)

Bob Dozier has been one of America's foremost makers of handmade knives since about 1968. He makes some of the finest and most practical handmade knives you'll find. For many years, Bob made highly finished knives for sale to the public while making reasonably priced knives for his fellow iron-workers. When he returned to full time knifemaking about 1988, it only took him a year of making highly finished knives to decide that what he really wanted to do was make the kind of knives he makes today. A Dozier knife will work all day, and still have a better edge than most knives you can buy. Each Dozier fixed blade knife includes the finest Kydex? sheath in the world, fitted to your knife.

Dozier Professional Guides Knife ($235)

The knife for the professional packer or guide who works in remote areas and does not want to carry more than one knife. This knife is large enough to do the whole job on any big game animal as well as camp chores. It will also have a good edge when other knives have become dull. Using his standard D2 at 60+ Rc, Bob produces a man sized knife with both the blade and the handle larger than most of his knives. This knife is perfectly suited to the man with large hands, or regular hands, but big jobs to do. 4-3/4" clip point blade made of D2 hardened to 60-61 Rc, total length 9-3/16". Made of 3/16" blade stock. Black Micarta? handle scales, pins and lanyard hole liner of aircraft alloy. Weighs 6.9 oz. Each knife is individually fitted with a Dozier Vertical Kydex? sheath.

Dozier Professional Skinner ($235)

The Dozier Professional Skinner is shaped to perform the maximum skinning job while allowing its use for most other camp chores. This is the knife for the man who wants the very best professional tool available. There will be no knife in the camp that will out perform it at skinning. 7-1/2" overall length with approximately 3-1/2" blade of D2 at 60-61 Rc. (the blade will sometimes vary since they are handmade knives). Horizontal Kydex belt sheath. Weighs 5.3 oz.

Dozier Master Skinner - Black Rucarta? ($235)

This is the drop point blade carried to its ultimate conclusion. A knife suited to the skinning of any animal on this or any other continent. The 3-1/2" by 1-1/8" blade of D2 at 60-61 Rc. will flay everything from a small whitetail to a 20 foot salt water crock with the same ease, and will hold an edge beyond your experience. Bob Dozier's personal heat-treat of D2 is fast becoming legendary among knife aficionados (those of us who love knives and great edge holding). This blade has a great skinning curve beneath the classic drop point and a satin finish well suited to the use the knife can expect. The handle has the ergonomic, "shaped for use" contours you would expect from Bob Dozier. It is not intended for those with small hands, this is truly "Man Sized". We are happy to offer either Black Rucarta handles or handles of our own Golden Maple Burl. The knife measures 8" overall and has a vertical sheath of Kydex? which allows it to be carried safely in front of the hip. Bob has put a lot of thought into this knife, designed exclusively for the A. G. Russell catalog. Knife weighs 6.4 oz.
 
Here is another knife I am interested in hearing what people have to say.

Cutco Drop Point Hunting Knife w/Double-D Edge

I would get a Havalon Paranta knife with the Cutco; since they both would be less money than some of the other knives.
 
I found this posted on another hunting forum.

Quote:


"Author: Joe Talmadge


Table of Contents:


I. What makes a steel perform?
A. Introduction
B. Sharpen for performance
C. Design for performance
D. Properties of performance steels
E. What's the "best steel"?

II. Elements of Steel

III. Steels
A. Non-stainless Steels
B. Stainless Steels
C. Damascus Steel
C. Non-steel used for cutlery

IV. Selected URLs for steel information

V. Bibliography

I. What Makes A Steel Perform?

A. Introduction
Steel is the heart of the blade. The search for higher-performance steels has to a number of wonderful materials in recent years. Steel by itself isn't the sole determiner of knife performance, of course. Heat treatment, blade geometry, handle geometry and materials all effect how a knife performs for a particular job. However, those other qualities can be difficult to measure. You can't tell by looking at it how well a blade has been heat-treated, and you can only make educated guesses on how well the blade and handle geometry will work. With steel, however, you can get a full listing of its alloying elements, something measurable and somehow satisfying.

As a result, it's easy to fall into the trap of putting too much emphasis on the steel itself. A knife is more than steel, and it's important not to forget that. In addition, many modern steels perform so well, that knife decisions can often be made based on other factors than marginal increases in steel performance.

The question of "what's the best steel" or "rank the following steels in order from best to worst" often comes up. The resulting replies can never be totally accurate, because depending on the jobs the knife will be used for, the blade geometry, and the quality of the heat treat, what is "best" and what is "worst" can be very fluid. If you want to make an educated decision about steels, try to learn the basics of steel properties, and go from there.

B. Sharpening for performance
That doesn't mean that significant performance advantages can't be had by choosing the right steel for the job. In fact, choosing a steel can significantly impact the performance of a knife. But, to really bring out the performance of a particular steel, you need to take advantage of the better steel in your sharpening plan. If a weak, brittle steel can perform the job when sharpened at 25-degrees-per-side, a strong, tough steel might give you some marginal performance improvements if it, too, is sharpened at 25-degrees-per-side. However, to really bring out the performance of the better steel, trying bringing it down to 20-degrees per side, or less. The advantage of the better steel is that it is strong and tough enough to hold up with a small edge angle -- and smaller edge angles radically out-perform bigger edge angles. It's easy to get a 10-to-1 perform advantage for certain cutting jobs by cutting 5 degrees off your sharpening angle.

This leads to the general rule:

To really see the advantages of a better steel, exploit that steel in your sharpening program. If you're going to sharpen all your knives at the same angle regardless of steel, you might de-emphasize steel choice somewhat.

On the internet, I'll often see someone posting about wanting to upgrade from their ATS-34 folder to one that has S30V, and then in a different post, declare that they sharpen all their knives at 20-degrees-per-side. Why spend all that extra money for S30V, just to get some marginal wear resistance advantages but no other performance advantages? If that same user would take advantage of S30V's superior toughness and drop the edge angle to 15-degrees-per-side, they would see a large leap in cutting performance, along with the extra wear resistance. Because of choosing the right sharpening angle, the more expensive S30V knife now gives an impressive return on investment. *Now* you can see what all the fuss is about!

C. Design for performance
In the section above, we highlighted what the user can do to bring out the best performance in a high-performance steel. But the user is only half the equation; now we will look at what the knifemaker might do with a higher- performance steel. As the knifemaker moves from one steel to another, it is often possible to modify the design of a particular knife to take advantage of the newer steel, and raise performance.

For example, it is possible to make a hard-use tactical/utility knife from ATS-34. To make sure the ATS-34 will take the kind of stresses it might see in this environment, the edge might be left a bit thick (sacrificing cutting performance), or the hardness brought down a touch (sacrificing strength and wear resistance), or both. If the same maker moves to much-tougher S30V, he might be able to thin out the edge, thin out the entire knife, and raise the hardness, bringing up performance as a whole. Moving to differentially-tempered 5160 might allow the maker to re-profile even more for performance. If we're talking about a fighter, moving from 1095 to 3V might allow the maker to make the knife much thinner, lighter, and faster, while significantly increasing cutting performance and maintaining edge integrity.

So to really take advantage of the higher-performance steel, we want the knifemaker to adjust the knife design to the steel, wherever he thinks it's appropriate. If a knifemaker offers the same knife in multiple steels, ask about what the characteristics are in each steel, and the how's and why's of where the design has changed to accommodate each steel offered.

Note that there can be good reasons that a knifemaker might not change the blade profile even though the steel has changed. Maybe he's particularly good at heat-treating one steel or another, so that the differences between disparate steels are minimized. Maybe the higher-performance steel is not available in the next stock thickness down. Maybe instead of higher cutting performance, the maker would rather offer the same cutting performance but in a knife that can take more abuse. Maybe his customers tend to only buy thicker knives regardless of performance.

So work with the maker to understand the choices being made with the different steels being offered. If you understand the kind of performance you need, you'll be able to make a wise choice.

D. Properties of performance steels
What is it we're looking for in a steel, anyway? Well, what we are looking for is strength, toughness, wear resistance, and edge holding. Sometimes, we're also looking for stain resistance.


Wear resistance - : Just like it sounds, wear resistance is the ability to withstand abrasion. Generally speaking, the amount, type, and distribution of carbides within the steel is what determines wear resistance.


Strength: The ability to take a load without permanently deforming. For many types of jobs, strength is extremely important. Any time something hard is being cut, or there's lateral stress put on the edge, strength becomes a critical factor. In steels, strength is directly correlated with hardness -- the harder the steel, the stronger it is. Note that with the Rockwell test used to measure hardness in a steel, it is the hardness of the steel matrix being measured, not the carbides. This, it's possible for a softer, weaker steel (measuring low on the Rockwell scale) to have more wear resistance than a harder steel. S60V, even at 56 Rc, still has more and harder carbides than ATS-34 at 60 Rc, and thus the S60V is more wear resistant, while the ATS-34 would be stronger.


Toughness - : The ability to take an impact without damage, by which we mean, chipping, cracking, etc. Toughness is obviously important in jobs such as chopping, but it's also important any time the blade hits harder impurities in a material being cut (e.g., cardboard, which often has embedded impurities).

The knifemaker will be making a tradeoff of strength versus toughness. Generally speaking, within the hardness range that the steel performs well at, as hardness increases, strength also increases, but toughness decreases. This is not always strictly true, but as a rule of thumb is generally accurate. In addition, it is possible for different heat treat formulas to leave the steel at the same hardness, but with properties such as toughness, wear resistance, and stain resistance significantly differing.


Stain resistance(rust resistance): The ability to withstand rust (oxidation). Obviously, this property can be helpful in corrosive environments, such as salt water. In addition, some types of materials are acidic (e.g., some types of foods), and micro-oxidation can lead to edge loss at the very tip of the edge, over a small amount of time. In "stainless" cutlery steels, stain resistance is most affected by free chromium -- that is, chromium that is not tied up in carbides. So, the more chromium tied up in carbides, the less free chromium there is, which means more wear resistance but less stain resistance.


Edge holding: The ability of a blade to hold an edge. Many people make the mistake of thinking wear resistance and edge holding are the same thing. Most assuredly, it is not; or rather, it usually is not. Edge holding is job-specific. That is, edge holding is a function of wear resistance, strength, and toughness. But different jobs require different properties for edge holding. For example, cutting through cardboard (which often has hard embedded impurities), toughness becomes extremely important, because micro-chipping is often the reason for edge degradation. Whittling very hard wood, strength becomes very important for edge-holding, because the primary reason for edge degradation is edge rolling and impaction. Wear resistance becomes more important for edge holding when very abrasive materials, such as carpet, are being cut.

There are other properties that significantly effect how a steel performs:


Ability to take an edge: Some steels just seem to take a much sharper edge than other steels, even if sharpened the exact same way. Finer-grained steels just seem to get scary sharp much more easily than coarse-grained steels, and this can definitely effect performance. Adding a bit of vanadium is an easy way to get a fine-grained steels. In addition, an objective of the forging process is to end up with a finer-grained steel. So both steel choice, and the way that steel is handled, can effect cutting performance.


Manufacturing process: Cleaner, purer steels perform better than dirtier, impure steels. The cleaner steel will often be stronger and tougher, having less inclusions. High quality processes used to manufacture performance steel include the Argon/Oxygen/Decarburization (AOD) process, and for even purer steel, the Vacuum Induction Melting/Vacuum Arc Remelting (VIM/VAR) process, often referred to as double vacuum melting or vacuum re-melting.


Edge toothiness: Some steels seem to cut aggressively even when razor polished. For these steels, even when they're polished for push-cutting, their carbides form a kind of "micro serrations" and slice aggressively.


E. What's the "best steel".

Understanding these properties will get you started to fundamentally understanding steels and how choice of steel can effect performance. I often see people asking, what's the best steel? Well, the answer depends so much on what the steel is being used for, and how it's heat-treated, that the questioner can never possibly get an accurate answer. For a knife lover, it's worth spending a little time understanding steel properties -- only by doing so well he really understand what the "best steel" might be for his application.

Putting it all together, you can see how these properties might determine your steel choice. To pick on S60V and ATS-34 again, there seems to be a feeling that S60V is "better" in some absolute sense than ATS-34. But S60V is often left very soft, around 55-56 Rc, to make up for a lack of toughness. Even left that soft, an abundance of well-distributed vanadium carbides gives S60V superior wear resistance to ATS-34, at acceptable toughness levels. However, does that mean S60V is "better" than ATS-34? Well, many users will find edge rolling and impaction the primary causes of edge degradation for everyday use. For those users, even though S60V is more wear-resistant, S60V is also so soft and weak that they will actually see better edge retention with ATS-34! The S60V user can leave the edge more obtuse (raise the sharpening angle) to put more metal behind the edge to make it more robust, but now the S60V will suffer serious cutting performance disadvantages versus the thinner ATS-34 edge.

So, the next general rule:

Knowing the uses you'll put your knife to, and exactly how those uses cause edge degradation, will allow you to make a much better choice of steel, if you generally understand steel properties.

The properties of different steels will be laid out below. But in your search for the knife with the "best steel" for your uses, I always suggest you ask the makers of the knives you're considering which steels they would use. The knifemaker will usually know which steels he can make perform the best. And as pointed out above, heat treat is absolutely critical to bringing out the best in a steel. A maker who has really mastered one particular steel (e.g., Dozier and D-2) might be able to make that steel work well for many different uses. So never go just by charts and properties; make sure you also consider what the knifemaker can do with the steel.

III. ELEMENTS OF STEEL
At its most simple, steel is iron with carbon in it. Other alloys are added to make the steel perform differently. Here are the important steel alloys in alphabetical order, and some sample steels that contain those alloys:



Carbon: Present in all steels, it is the most important hardening element. Also increases the strength of the steel but, added in isolation, decreases toughness. We usually want knife-grade steel to have >.5% carbon, which makes it "high-carbon" steel.


Chromium: Added for wear resistance, hardenability, and (most importantly) for corrosion resistance. A steel with at least 13% chromium is typically deemed "stainless" steel, though another definition says the steel must have at least 11.5% *free* chromium (as opposed to being tied up in carbides) to be considered "stainless". Despite the name, all steel can rust if not maintained properly. Adding chromium in high amounts decreases toughness. Chromium is a carbide-former, which is why it increases wear resistance.


Manganese: An important element, manganese aids the grain structure, and contributes to hardenability. Also strength & wear resistance. Improves the steel (e.g., deoxidizes) during the steel's manufacturing (hot working and rolling). Present in most cutlery steel except for A-2, L-6, and CPM 420V.


Molybdenum: A carbide former, prevents brittleness & maintains the steel's strength at high temperatures. Present in many steels, and air-hardening steels (e.g., A-2, ATS-34) always have 1% or more molybdenum -- molybdenum is what gives those steels the ability to harden in air.


Nickel: Adds toughness. Present in L-6 and AUS-6 and AUS-8. Nickel is widely believed to play a role in corrosion resistance as well, but this is probably incorrect.


Phosphorus: Present in small amounts in most steels, phosphorus is a essentially a contaminant which reduces toughness.


Silicon: Contributes to strength. Like manganese, it makes the steel more sound while it's being manufactured.


Sulfur: Typically not desirable in cutlery steel, sulfur increases machinability but decreases toughness.


Tungsten: A carbide former, it increases wear resistance. When combined properly with chromium or molybdenum, tungsten will make the steel to be a high-speed steel. The high-speed steel M-2 has a high amount of tungsten. The strongest carbide former behind vanadium.


Vanadium: Contributes to wear resistance and hardenability, and as a carbide former (in fact, vanadium carbides are the hardest carbides) it contribute to wear resistance. It also refines the grain of the steel, which contributes to toughness and allows the blade to take a very sharp edge. A number of steels have vanadium, but M-2, Vascowear, and CPM T440V and 420V (in order of increasing amounts) have high amounts of vanadium. BG-42's biggest difference with ATS-34 is the addition of vanadium.


IV. STEELS

A. Non-stainless Steels (carbon, alloy, and tool steels):

These steels are the steels most often forged. Stainless steels can be forged (guys like Sean McWilliams do forge stainless), but it is very difficult. In addition, carbon steels can be differentially tempered, to give a hard edge-holding edge and a tough springy back. Stainless steels are not differentially tempered. Of course, carbon steels will rust faster than stainless steels, to varying degrees. Carbon steels are also often a little bit less of a crap shoot than stainless steels -- I believe all the steels named below are fine performers when heat treated properly.

In the AISI steel designation system, 10xx is carbon steel, any other steels are alloy steels. For example, the 50xx series are chromium steels.

In the SAE designation system, steels with letter designations (e.g., W-2, A-2) are tool steels.

There is an ASM classification system as well, but it isn't seen often in the discussion of cutlery steels, so I'll ignore it for now. Often, the last numbers in the name of a steel are fairly close to the steel's carbon content. So 1095 is ~.95% carbon. 52100 is ~1.0% carbon. 5160 is ~.60% carbon.


D-2
D-2 is sometimes called a "semi-stainless". It has a fairly high chrome content (12%), but not high enough to classify it as stainless. It is more stain resistant than the carbon steels mentioned above, however. It has excellent wear resistance. D-2 is much tougher than the premium stainless steels like ATS-34, but not as tough as many of the other non-stainless steels mentioned here. The combination of great wear resistance, almost-stainlessness, and good toughness make it a great choice for a number of knife styles. Bob Dozier is one maker who uses D-2. Benchmade has begun using D-2 in its Axis AFCK.


M-2
A "high-speed steel", it can hold its temper even at very high temperatures, and as such is used in industry for high-heat cutting jobs. It is slightly tougher, and is slightly more wear resistant, than D-2. However, M-2 rusts easily. Benchmade has started using M-2 in one of their AFCK 710 variations.


A-2
An excellent air-hardening tool steel, it is tougher than D-2 and M-2, with less wear resistance . As an air-hardening steel, don't expect it to be differentially tempered. Its good toughness makes it a frequent choice for combat knives. Chris Reeve and Phil Hartsfield both use A-2.


O-1
This is a steel very popular with forgers, as it has the reputation for being "forgiving". It is an excellent steel, that takes and holds an edge superbly, and is tough (although not as tough as, say, 5160). It rusts easily, however. Randall Knives uses O-1, so does Mad Dog Knives.


W-2
Reasonably tough and holds an edge well, due to its .2% vanadium content. Most files are made from W-1, which is the same as W-2 except for the vanadium content (W-1 has no vanadium).


The 10-series
1095 (and 1084, 1070, 1060, 1050, etc.) Many of the 10-series steels for cutlery, though 1095 is the most popular for knives. When you go in order from 1095-1050, you generally go from more carbon to less, from more wear resistance to less wear resistance, and tough to tougher to toughest. As such, you'll see 1060 and 1050, used often for swords. For knives, 1095 is sort of the "standard" carbon steel, not too expensive and performs well. It is reasonably tough and holds an edge well, and is easy to sharpen. It rusts easily. This is a simple steel, which contains only two alloying elements: .95% carbon and .4% manganese. The various Kabars are usually 1095 with a black coating.


Carbon V
Carbon V is a trademarked term by Cold Steel, and as such is not necessarily one particular kind of steel; rather, it describes whatever steel Cold Steel happens to be using, and there is an indication they do change steels from time to time. Carbon V performs roughly between 1095-ish and O-1-ish, in my opinion, and rusts like O-1 as well. I've heard rumors that Carbon V is O-1 (which I think is unlikely) or 1095. Numerous industry insiders insist it is 0170-6. Some spark tests done by a rec.knives reader seem to point the finger at 50100-B. Since 50100-B and 0170-6 are the same steel (see below), this is likely the current Carbon V.


0170-6 - 50100-B
These are different designations for the same steel: 0170-6 is the steel makers classification, 50100-B is the AISI designation. A good chrome-vanadium steel that is somewhat similar to O-1, but much less expensive. The now-defunct Blackjack made several knives from O170-6, and Carbon V may be 0170-6. 50100 is basically 52100 with about 1/3 the chromium of 52100, and the B in 50100-B indicates that the steel has been modified with vanadium, making this a chrome-vanadium steel.


L-6
A band saw steel that is very tough and holds an edge well, but rusts easily. It is, like O-1, a forgiving steel for the forger. If you're willing to put up with the maintenance, this may be one of the very best steels available for cutlery, especially where toughness is desired. In a poll on the knifemakers email list back in the 1990s, when asked what the makers would use for their personal knife, L-6 emerged as the top choice.


5160
A steel popular with forgers, it is popular now for a variety of knife styles, but usually bigger blades that need more toughness. It is essentially a simple spring steel with chromium added for hardenability. It has good wear resistance, but is known especially for its outstanding toughness. This steel performs well over a wide range of hardnesses, showing great toughness when hardened in the low 50s Rc for swords, and hardened up near the 60s for knives needing more edge holding.


52100
Formerly a ball-bearing steel, and as such previously only used by forgers, it's available in bar stock now. It is similar to 5160 (though it has around 1% carbon vs. 5160 ~.60%), but holds an edge better. It is less tough than 5160. It is used often for hunting knives and other knives where the user is willing to trade off a little of 5160's toughness for better wear resistance. However, with the continued improvement of 52100 heat treat, this steel is starting to show up in larger knives and showing excellent toughness. A modified 52100 is being used by Jerry Busse in his lower-cost production line, and such high-performance knife luminaries as Ed Fowler strongly favor 52100.


CPM 10V
Crucible's somewhat-stain-resistant 10V provides incredible wear resistance with D-2-class toughness. It is an outstanding choice when maximum wear resistance is desired, but not super toughness.


CPM 3V
CPM's incredibly tough 3V gives excellent wear resistance and good stain resistance as well, although when it does stain, it is said to pit rather than surface rust. When maximum toughness is desired, with very good wear resistance, 3V is a great choice.


INFI
INFI is currently only used by Jerry Busse. In place of some of the carbon (INFI contains .5% carbon), INFI has nitrogen. The result is a non-stainless steel that is nevertheless extremely stain resistant (informally reported at close to D-2, or even better), incredibly tough for a high-alloy ingot steel, and with extremely good wear resistance.


Vascowear
A very hard-to-find steel, with a high vanadium content. It is extremely difficult to work and very wear-resistant. It is out of production.

B. Stainless Steels
Remember that all steels can rust. But the following steels, by virtue of their > 13% chromium, have much more rust resistance than the above steels. I should point out that there doesn't appear to be consensus on what percent of chromium is needed for a steel to be considered stainless. In the cutlery industry, the de-facto standard is 13%, but the ASM Metals Handbooks says "greater than 10%", and other books cite other numbers. It probably makes more sense to measure stainlessness by the amount of free chromium (chromium not tied up in carbides), because free chromium is what forms the chromium oxide on the blade surface that offers stain resistance. The alloying elements have a strong influence on the amount of chromium needed; lower chromium with the right alloying elements can still have "stainless" performance.

Because any particular stainless steel is often heat treated to around the same hardness (i.e., 440C is usually around 57 Rc, ATS-34 is 59-61 Rc, S60V is getting consensus at around 56 Rc, etc.) even by different manufacturers, it's a bit easier to give a general feeling of the performance you'll get from different classes of stainless steels, without introducing too many inaccuracies. Please note, though, that the act of grouping differing steels in classes definitely does oversimplify, and some of these steels might more properly fit between the class it's in, and the following (or previous) one. In addition, better heat treat can move a steel up in performance significantly. Last disclaimer: not everyone will agree with the groupings I have here. Whew, all that said, here is a general categorization of stainless steels:


420and 420Jrepresent the low end of stainless steels. They are very stain resistant, and are tough due to being very soft. However, they are also very weak, and not very wear resistant. Generally speaking, expect these steels to lose their edge quickly through abrasion and impaction. They are used in less-expensive knives due to their ease of machining.


440Aand its relative peers, 425M, 420HC, 12C27, and 6Aare the next group. They can be hardened more than the previous group, for better strength, and they are more wear resistant, though wear resistance is just getting to the point of acceptability. 440A and 12C27 are the leaders of this group, with solid heat treat both perform okay. 12C27 is said to be particularly pure and can perform very well when heat treated properly. 6A trails those two steels, though with its vanadium content, can take a razor edge. 425M and 420HC trail the rest.


Gin-1, ATS-55, 8A, and 440Ccomprise the next group. These steels will usually be stronger than the previous group, and more wear-resistant. Generally speaking, they retain excellent stain resistance properties, though ATS-55 sticks out here as not particularly stain resistant. 8A is also worth a mention, with some vanadium content, it can take an extremely sharp edge very easily, but is also the weakest and least wear-resistant of this group.


ATS-34/154CM, VG-10, and S60Vare the next group up. It's difficult to make generalizations about ATS-34 and 154-CM -- they are in such widespread use that heat treat varies widely. These steels provide a high-end performance benchmark for stainless steels, and hold an edge well, and are tough enough for many uses (though not on par with good non-stainlesses). They aren't very stain resistant, however. VG-10 can be thought of as being like ATS-34 and 154-CM, but doing just about everything a hair better. It's a little more stain resistant, tougher, holds an edge a little better. And VG-10 has vanadium in it, it's fine-grained and takes the best edge of this group. S60V has by far the best wear resistance of the group, though consensus is becoming that it should be left around the same hardness as 440C (56ish Rc), which means it will be relatively weak compared to ATS-34, 154-CM, and VG-10, and so it will indent and lose its edge quickly when strength is required. S60V is the winner here when pure abrasion resistance is much more important than edge strength.


BG-42, S90V, and S30Vconstitute the next group. BG-42 has better wear resistance than all the previous steels except for S60V. It is tougher than ATS-34, and more stain resistant. It is wear resistant to the point where it can be difficult to sharpen. S90V represents the ultimate in wear resistance in the steels discussed so far. Also tougher than ATS-34, and more stain resistant. It can be very difficult to put an edge on. It is difficult enough to machine than it is used almost exclusively in custom knives, not production knives. In your buying decisions, you might want to take into account the difficulty of sharpening these steels. S30V backs off on the wear resistance of S90V, but is significantly tougher and easier to sharpen. It is more wear resistant than BG-42. The jury is still out, but it may end up this week's ultimate high-end all-around stainless steel, due to high performance coupled with easier machinability and sharpenability than the other steels in this class.

Okay, on to the steels in more detail:


420
Lower carbon content (<.5%) than the 440 series makes this steel extremely soft, and it doesn't hold an edge well. It is used often for diving knives, as it is extremely stain resistant. Also used often for very inexpensive knives. Outside salt water use, it is too soft to be a good choice for a utility knife.


420HC
420 modified with more carbon, to be roughly comparable to 440A.


440 A - 440 B - 440C
The carbon content (and hardenability) of this stainless steel goes up in order from A (.75%) to B (.9%) to C (1.2%). 440C is an excellent, high-end stainless steel, usually hardened to around 56-58 Rc, very tough and with good edge-holding at that hardness. 440C was the king of stainless cutlery steels in the 1980s, before ATS-34 took the title in the 1990s. All three resist rust well, with 440A being the most rust resistant, and 440C the least. The SOG Seal 2000 is 440A, and Randall uses 440B for their stainless knives. 440C is fairly ubiquitous, and is generally considered a very good general-use stainless, tougher and more stain resistant than ATS-34 but with less edge-holding and weaker. If your knife is marked with just "440", it is probably the less expensive 440A; if a manufacturer had used the more expensive 440C, he'd want to advertise that. The general feeling is that 440A (and similar steels, see below) is just good enough for everyday use, especially with a good heat treat (we've heard good reports on the heat treat of SOG's 440A blades, don't know who does the work for them). 440-B is a very solid performer and 440-C is excellent.


425M- 12C27
Both are very similar to 440A. 425M (.5% carbon) is used by Buck knives. 12C27 (.6% carbon) is a Scandanavian steel used often in Finish puukkos and Norwegian knives. 12C27 is said to perform very well when carefully heat treated, due to its high purity. When done right, it may be a slighter better choice than 440A and its ilk.


AUS-6- AUS-8- AUS-10(aka 6A 8A 10A)
Japanese stainless steels, roughly comparable in carbon content to 440A (AUS-6, .65% carbon) and 440B (AUS-8, .75% carbon) and 440C (AUS-10, 1.1% carbon). AUS-6 is used by Al Mar, and is a competitor to low-end steels like 420J. Cold Steel's use of AUS-8 has made it pretty popular, as heat treated by CS it won't hold an edge like ATS-34, but is a bit softer (and therefore weaker) and tougher. 8A is a competitor of middle-tier steels like ATS-55 and Gin-1. AUS-10 has roughly the same carbon content as 440C but with slightly less chromium, so it should be a bit less rust resistant but perhaps a bit tougher than 440C. It competes with higher-end steels, like ATS-34 and above. All 3 steels have some vanadium added (which the 440 series lacks), which will improve wear resistance and refines the grain for both good toughness, and the ability to sharpen to a very keen edge. Many people have reported that they are able to get knives using steels that include vanadium, like 8A, sharper than they can get non-vanadium steels like ATS-34.


GIN-1aka G-2
A steel with slightly less carbon, slightly more chromium, and much less moly than ATS-34, it used to be used often by Spyderco in their less-expensive knives. Spyderco has since switched to ATS-55 and 8A, but Benchmade is now using Gin-1 in their less-expensive knives. A very good stainless steel, with a bit less wear resistance and strength than ATS-34.


ATS-34- 154-CMATS-34 was the hottest high-end stainless in the 1990s. 154-CM is the original American version, but for a long time was not manufactured to the high quality standards knifemakers expect, so knifemakers switched over to ATS-34. CPM is again making high-quality 154-CM, and some companies seeking to stick with American-made products (like Microtech) are using it. ATS-34 is a Hitachi product that is very, very similar to 154-CM. Normally hardened to around 60 Rc, it holds an edge very well and is tough enough even at that high hardness. Not as rust resistant as the 400 series above. Many custom makers use ATS-34, and Spyderco (in their high-end knives) and Benchmade are among the production companies that use it. Contrary to popular belief, both steels are manufactured through the Argon/Oxygen/Decarburization process (AOD), not vacuum remelted.


ATS-55
Similar to ATS-34, but with the moly removed and some other elements added. This steel is a good cutlery steel but a tier behind ATS-34 and its closest competitors (other steels in ATS-55's class might be Gin-1 and AUS-
clip_image001.gif
. With the molybdenum removed, ATS-55 does not seem to hold an edge quite like ATS-34, and reports are that it's less rust-resistant. My guess is that with the moly gone, more chromium is tied up in carbides -- which means less free chromium for rust resistance, and softer chromium carbides replacing moly carbides for less wear resistance.


VG-10
Another vanadium-containing high-end stainless steel. Due to the vanadium content, VG-10 takes a killer edge, just like other vanadium steels like BG-42 and AUS-8. VG-10 is also tougher and more rust-resistant than ATS-34, and seems to hold an edge better.


BG-42
Bob Loveless announced a while back that he's switching from ATS-34 to this steel. Keep an eye out for it, it's bound to catch on, although the higher cost, limited stock-size availability, and added difficulty of manufacturing are holding BG-42's popularity back. BG-42 is somewhat similar to ATS-34, with two major differences: It has twice as much manganese as ATS-34, and has 1.2% vanadium (ATS-34 has no vanadium), so look for significantly better edge-holding than ATS-34. The addition of vanadium and the clean manufacturing process (VIM/VAR) also gives BG-42 better toughness than ATS-34. Chris Reeve has switched from ATS-34 to BG-42 in his Sebenzas.


S60V(CPM T440V) - S90V(CPM T420V)
Two steels that hold an edge superbly, world class type edge holding, but it can be difficult to get the edge there in the first place. These steels are made with Crucible's particle metallurgy process, and that process allows these steels to be packed with more alloying elements than traditional steel manufacturing methods would allow. Both steels are very high in vanadium, which accounts for their incredible wear resistance. Spyderco offers at least one model in CPM S60V. Spyderco, one major user of S60V, has cut back hardness down to 55-56Rc, in order to keep toughness acceptable, but that sacrifices strength so there is a tradeoff. S90V is CPM's follow-on to 440V, and with less chromium and almost double the vanadium, is more wear-resistant and tougher than S60V -- and, in fact, is probably more wear-resistant than any other stainless steel used in the cutlery industry. As such, S90V is in the running with steels like BG-42 as among the best general-purpose stainless steels; however, S90V is even more expensive and difficult to work than BG-42, so it's strictly in the realm of custom makers currently.


CPM S30V:
The newest stainless steel from Crucible, purpose-designed as a cutlery steel. This steel gives A-2-class toughness and almost-S90V class wear resistance, at reasonable hardness (~59-60 Rc). This mix of attributes is making S30V one of the hottest stainless steels going, with makes such as Chris Reeve switching from BG-42 to S30V. Will this be the new king of general-purpose stainless cutlery steels? We'll know over the next couple of years.


400 Series Stainless
Before Cold Steel switched to AUS-8, many of their stainless products were marketed as being of "400 Series Stainless". Other knife companies are beginning to use the same term. What exactly *is* 400 Series Stainless? I always imagined it was 440-A, but there's nothing to keep a company from using any 4xx steel, like 420 or 425M, and calling it 400 Series Stainless.

C. Damascus Steel-- see www.dfoggknives.com for much more detail

Damascus steels are made by forge-welding two or more different metals (usually steels). The billets are heated and welded; to get an idea of the process, see Don Fogg's URL listed in the bibliography. The Damascus is then acid-etched. The different metals etch at different rates, and depth and color contrast are revealed.

Damascus can be made with performance and/or aesthetic objectives in mind. Aesthetically, the choice of materials is important. One shiny steel and one darker steel etch out to show the most striking pattern. If the maker is going more for beauty than performance, he might even go with nickel, which is bright but does not perform as well as steel for cutlery applications. The other factor affecting beauty is of course the welding pattern. Many patterns of Damascus are available today, from random to star to ladder, and a whole lot more.

The following steels will provide bright lines:
L-6 and 15N20 (the Swedish version of L-6) -- nickel content
O-1 -- chromium content
ASTM 203 E -- nickel content
Nickel
The following steels will provide dark lines:
1095
1084
5160
52100
W-2
D. Non-steels used for cutlery

Talonite- Stellite 6K- Boye Dendritic Cobalt(BDC)
These cobalt alloys have incredible wear resistance, and are practically corrosion resistant. Stellite 6K has been around for years, but was expensive and very difficult to work, and so is only rarely seen. Talonite is easier to work, and as a result has been gaining in popularity, especially among web-based knife buyers. David Boye uses his casting process to manufacture Boye Dendritic Cobalt. This material is tough and has great wear resistance, but is relatively weak.


Titanium
Newer titanium alloys can be hardened near 50 Rc, and at that hardness seem to take something approaching a useful edge. It is extremely rust-resistant, and is non-magnetic. Popular as expensive dive knives these days, because the SEALs use it as their knife when working around magnetic-detonated mines. Mission knives uses titanium. Tygrys makes a knife with a steel edge sandwiched by titanium.


Ceramics
Numerous knives have been offered with ceramic blades. Usually, those blades are very very brittle, and cannot be sharpened by the user; however, they hold an edge well. Boker and Kyocera make knives from this type of ceramic. Kevin McClungcame out with a ceramic composite knife blade that much tougher than the previous ceramics, tough enough to actually be useful as a knife blade for most jobs. It is also user-sharpenable, and holds an edge incredibly well."
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-29-09 AT 11:32AM (MST)[p]You've got some great choices listed there. I'd also throw another name into the hat- Gene Ingram. I've had a few of his knives, and they can't be beat. Google them. If you order straight from Gene, expect a couple of years of wait time. I keep my eye on ebay and I seem to find them there from time to time. Cost will be around $300. I'd vote for one in S30v steel.

Russel, Dozier, Ingram, May- there's a handful that will make you very happy, and are built to last generations. Pick whichever you like the looks of and go for it.

I'd also spend some time on the 24hourcampfire.com knife forum. There's some great pics there and some great reviews.

Check here for some beautiful knives that are ready to go, now.

http://www.michiganknives.com/Handmade-Knives.html
 
So your telling me to get a good knife for hunting I need to spend $150.00 or more??? Boy am I screwed now!! Me and the $25.00 buck knife just can't hang in this sport much longer and we will have to retire from hunting I guess.:-(
 
Blacktail Slayer, That is the same combo I use. I have two Cutco's and a Havalon. The cutco's are awesome. When they get dull(which takes forever) just send them in and get them sharpened. I usually send them back after every season rather they need it or not. They also have a lifetime warranty on them,in fact when you send them in half the time they send you a new knife. You cant go wrong with the price either.
Hope this helps,Elkhuntr
 
Another brand to look at is diamondbladeknives.com they fused the metal.
 
I own an diamond blade knive and love it. I cleaned and skinned a moose with it last year and didn't have to stop to sharpen the blade.
 
>So your telling me to get
>a good knife for hunting
>I need to spend $150.00
>or more??? Boy am I
>screwed now!! Me and the
>$25.00 buck knife just can't
>hang in this sport much
>longer and we will have
>to retire from hunting I
>guess.:-(


If you want za really nice knife that is affordable you can pick up a spyderco bill moran knife. They sell for about $70.00 and come with a nice kydex sheath, and are VG-10 stainless...You can skin and bone out several animals before you need to sharpen and for the money I don't think there is a better choice.
 
I probably have $1500 in custom knives......that have never seen blood.

I use the hooked carpet knife and the replaceable razor blade knife for heavy work. $15 and last several seasons.

The Russel, Boker, Felthoffer and others, are too nice to chance losing in the field.

Dumb....I know.
 
Here are a couple of pictures of the knife that I had made by RELH a MM'er on here. There are a few of us that are proud owners of his workmanship on knives. Overton, D13er and someone else can't remember right now along with myself own his knives. He will send you examples of the different ones by Photo and you pick and choose what and how you want it made.
Brian

4b3aadbd393f7cc8.jpg

4b3aadd439c3652b.jpg
 
I'll third the vote for Diamondblade knives. The friction stir welding or friction forging they do molecularly changes the grain of the steel, making them harder and sharper than any blade I have ever used. I have never used any other steel blade that will hold an edge through multiple animals like a Diamondblade.

Check out their videos of their manufacturing process, very impressive!

www.diamondbladeknives.com/

They are a little pricey, but worth every penny!
Smokepoler63
 
CUTCO with the diamond D edge! I have two and they never get dull. Used one of these knives on 3 Alaskan moose, 1 Utah moose, and a Wyoming mule deer this fall and it is still razor sharp. Lifetime guarantee and factory resharpening for almost free. My friend who killed the Utah moose was so impressed with the knife, he ordered one the day we got back (on sale for $58.00)
 
Thank you all for your input on different hunting knives. I have been doing a ton of research and here are the knives I have it down to. I'm just not sure what length I want the knife and blade to be for elk and deer. I plan on getting a Havalon Paranta and possibly a Cutco(as a backup) as well.

Dozier K-2 General Purpose
Overall Length: 7 7/8"
Blade Length: 3 1/2" at 60-61 Rc.
Blade Thickness: .135

Dozier K-17 White River Skinner
Overall Length: 8"
Blade Length: 3 5/8" at 60-61 Rc.
Blade Thickness: .135 Blade

Dozier K-4 Straight Hunter
Overall Length: 7 7/8"
Blade Length: 3 5/8" at 60-61 Rc.
Blade Thickness: .135 Blade

Dozier Buffalo River Hunter Green Micarta
Blade Length 3-3/4″
Blade Steel D-2
Rockwell 60-61
Handle Cocobolo
Tang Full
Overall Length 8-3/16″
 
Dozier knives has got to be paying for this thread........A knife for hunting has never, ever caused me to think that much.


great post/pic, thanks for sharing

JB
497fc2397b939f19.jpg
 
>Dozier knives has got to be
>paying for this thread........A knife
>for hunting has never, ever
>caused me to think that
>much.
>
>
>great post/pic, thanks for sharing
>
>JB
>
497fc2397b939f19.jpg


Nope I just go crazy like this with all the hunting products I look into and want to buy. I really want to make sure I make the right decision on all my products. I'm more about spending the extra dollars for an investment that will last me several hunting seasons or even my whole lifetime. I'm done with the cheap stuff that only lasts one year with all my abuse.
 
"I'm done with the cheap stuff that lnly lasts one year with all my abuse".

If you really abuse a knife such as using it for a pry bar, banging on the back of the spline with a rock to split a pelvis bone or throwing the knife, you would be better off staying with the cheap knives and throwing them away after a year or two.
I offer a lifetime warrany on my custom knives, as does most custom makers worth their salt. But even the best custom makers will void that waranty for abuse.

Now if you are refering to hard use in field dressing or skinning out animals and want one that will keep it's edge to dressout and skin 2-4 animals, that is a different story. This is where a good custom will shine over the factory knives depending on what steel is used and how well it was heat treated.

RELH
 
>
> Now if you are
>refering to hard use in
>field dressing or skinning out
>animals and want one that
>will keep it's edge to
>dressout and skin 2-4 animals,
>that is a different story.
>This is where a good
>custom will shine over the
>factory knives depending on what
>steel is used and how
>well it was heat treated.

> RELH
>
That's what I'm talking about. Same goes for other products like cheap rain gear and boots that don't even keep you dry. I will spend the extra dollars to make sure my equipment works.
 
So I have heard a lot about people liking the Cutco knives and it seems like a great backup knife to have around. Would you recommend the ?Drop Point Hunting Knife? or the ?Hunting Knife in Gift Box. Item#1769?? I here a lot of talk about the Double-D edge and wonder what your thoughts are on this blade compared to a straight blade for deer and elk.
 
I think that a drop point hunter with a good belly section is about perfect for the all around knife for both field dressing and skinning.

You have a good point for opening the animal and enough curve on the belly to make it a good skinning knife also. A full blown skinner with a large belly is the best for skinning, but sucks on the field dressing part and opening the animal up.

I am not that familar with the cutco knives and I gave up on most factory knives and their cheap steel many years ago and learned to make my own using what I felt were the best materials and paying attention to the fine details to turn that steel into a top hunting knife for the field.

I will admit that over half my knives are setting in a knife collector's display cabinet and will never see the hunting field.

RELH
 
Alaskan knives are top notch. I'm buying some this weekend and have seen them in action. None better!
 
I've had mixed results with my Knives of Alaska. My light hunter went completely dull after the first cut into the hide on the elk I killed last year. The fillet knife set I have is hard to beat though.

I sent my set with the light hunter back to KOA and they reground the blade. So far they've been doing better, but I'm still a little worried I'll have problems when that's the only knife I have with me.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-31-09 AT 12:38PM (MST)[p]
RELH, great looking work. I can see what I'm missing with my $25 Gerber Gator but after 25 or so animals and with the help of a diamond stone it just keeps on cutting. Maybe someday I'll get a pretty knife, but knowing me I'd probably just loose it.
 
Greatbasin;

Custom knives are like custom rifles. Some guys can buy a factory rifle off the rack and never want or need anything better. Other guys must go the extra mile, and spend the extra dollar to have what they consider is the best.
You are smart to carry a diamond stone in the field. I have had numerous customers tell me that they field dress and skin out 2-3 deer & elk before they have to touch up my blades. Guess what, I include a Eze-Lap fine diamond stone with each knife that they can fit in their shirt pocket.

RELH
 
>Greatbasin;
>
>Custom knives are like custom rifles.
>Some guys can buy a
>factory rifle off the rack
>and never want or need
>anything better. Other guys must
>go the extra mile, and
>spend the extra dollar to
>have what they consider is
>the best.
> You are
>smart to carry a diamond
>stone in the field. I
>have had numerous customers tell
>me that they field dress
>and skin out 2-3 deer
>& elk before they have
>to touch up my blades.
>Guess what, I include a
>Eze-Lap fine diamond stone with
>each knife that they can
>fit in their shirt pocket.

>
> RELH

I gotcha. There's a reason I wear a Timex and not a Rolex...LOL.
Keep making those Rolex quality tools...again that one looks awesome.
Those little diamond files are worth their weight in gold and obviously from my choice in a blade, they can put an edge on anything. :)
 
>Greatbasin;
>
>Custom knives are like custom rifles.
>Some guys can buy a
>factory rifle off the rack
>and never want or need
>anything better. Other guys must
>go the extra mile, and
>spend the extra dollar to
>have what they consider is
>the best.
> You are
>smart to carry a diamond
>stone in the field. I
>have had numerous customers tell
>me that they field dress
>and skin out 2-3 deer
>& elk before they have
>to touch up my blades.
>Guess what, I include a
>Eze-Lap fine diamond stone with
>each knife that they can
>fit in their shirt pocket.
>
>
>
>
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> RELH

The knifes your talking about aren't really like custom rifles, your in the upgraded rifle area. I have an SR Johnson, in fact the 3rd SR Johnson he made, yes the 3rd, now this is a custom rifle, and unlike others in this price range, this knife gets used, because otherwise whats the point of having it? But I carry my BUCK 110 everywhere and its fine.
 
Hossblur;

Just what knives do you think I am talking about that you consider them in only the upgraded area. I was talking about full custom knives, not any factory knockoff that are called custom to fool buyers.
I hope your Buck 110 is one of the old ones made over 25 years ago when the old man was the head of the company. They used good steel then and that was what made their reputation.
The newer 110 uses steel that any good custom maker would not put his name on the blade.
Buck knives finally got smart due to decrease sales and bought out a series of knives using S30V steel and bought in Paul Bros to set up their heat treating operation to insure better heat treating. Compare the prices of their S30V steel knives to their other knives and you might guess their is a big difference in quality as is reflected by the prices.
Who is SR Johnson? I am famililar with some top custom rifle makers, but have never heard of him.

RELH
 
I have a Gene Ingram, love it. But I've been using the Havalon for most of my work lately, the Havalon is just to dang convienent.

I like the looks of RELH's knives too, I didnt even know he made knives when I bought my Ingram.
 
I would go with the Dozier Pro Guides knife.
Have you seen the Diamond Edge knives?

Also goo are the Marble Arms fixed blades made between 1998-2001 and the Bark River knives.
 
I always carry more than one knife, hunting or not. When hunting I carry a knife that I have carried for over half my life, an old (wasn't when I got it!) Camillus Marine fighting knife. This knife, like an 06 can do anything but is not the best for anything. The best thing about this knife is it is VERY forgiving. For the majority of the work on big game I use a Remington (Camillus) drop point fixed blade and an Old Timer Sharp Finger. Both made in the USA. Yes even when being careful not to cut hair or hit bone they still need to be touched up with a steel when breaking down an elk but both will do a deer without honing. None of the above can match the edge holding abilities of the high dollar knives with their special steels and tempering, but they have always done the job for me just fine!
Norkal
 
Thanks Kilo, the way the other post was worded, I thought he was talking about a Johnson custom rifle, not knife.
Johnson the knife maker, not rifle maker, has been around for a good many years. He devoted the majority of his style of knives from the old master, Bob Loveless. Every time I have seen one of his hunting knives, I first think it is a loveless.
At the prices he is able to command, you will not see too many of his knives in the field. They end up in the hands of collectors now who buy them for investment purposes.
I have a collector in Gainsville, Georgia who has over 20 of my knives that he has paid $325.00 to $375.00 each and he told me that I am too cheap on my prices. Also told me to hurry up and get famous so he can make a hell of a profit on them also.
I still like him because 4 of the knifes were for field use for himself and family members as he is a avid deer hunter.
I injoy making them on a part time basis, and not have to depend on knife sales to put beans on the table. It would stop being fun if I had to spend 40-60 hours a week in the shop. I am retired and plan to stay that way.
By the way I will be in Clear Lake on Feb. 5-7 again. My partner and I are going to shoot some more pigs for the freezer. Will be staying at the same World Mart resort as last time. If you get a chance, stop by.

RELH
 
>Thanks Kilo, the way the other
>post was worded, I thought
>he was talking about a
>Johnson custom rifle, not knife.
>
> Johnson the
>knife maker, not rifle maker,
>has been around for a
>good many years. He devoted
>the majority of his style
>of knives from the old
>master, Bob Loveless. Every time
>I have seen one of
>his hunting knives, I first
>think it is a loveless.
>
> At the
>prices he is able to
>command, you will not see
>too many of his knives
>in the field. They end
>up in the hands of
>collectors now who buy them
>for investment purposes.
> I
>have a collector in Gainsville,
>Georgia who has over 20
>of my knives that he
>has paid $325.00 to $375.00
>each and he told me
>that I am too cheap
>on my prices. Also told
>me to hurry up and
>get famous so he can
>make a hell of a
>profit on them also.
> I
>still like him because 4
>of the knifes were for
>field use for himself and
>family members as he is
>a avid deer hunter.
> I
>injoy making them on a
>part time basis, and not
>have to depend on knife
>sales to put beans on
>the table. It would stop
>being fun if I had
>to spend 40-60 hours a
>week in the shop. I
>am retired and plan to
>stay that way.
> By the way
>I will be in Clear
>Lake on Feb. 5-7 again.
>My partner and I are
>going to shoot some more
>pigs for the freezer. Will
>be staying at the same
>World Mart resort as last
>time. If you get a
>chance, stop by.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>RELH
>
The way it came out of my head made sense, I agree with you reading it didn't. I have a pre-loveless SR Johnson. Steven and my dad were friends and in the same scout unit when Gil Hibben taught them how to make knives. Steven made this one for my dad. It doesn't have the Loveless look. I have never had it priced, Mr. Hibben said it would be huge to collectors when I talked to him about it. Dad is dead, he used it for decades, last year Steven cleaned it up and put an edge on it for me. It is my hunting knife, in my opinion a knife(or gun) is useless unless it is being used. That was my point, I have never understood why a guy would spend a ton on a knife(or gun, or car for that matter), then let it set around collecting dust in a display. Art is on canvass or bronze, knives, guns etc. are to be enjoyed and they aren't enjoyable in a display. My .02, good luck on your knife making.
 
Hossblur;

I agree with you 100%. I prefer to see my knives used in the field and I really enjoy getting photos from customers showing me their game animal that they got to use the knife on.
I could never be a collector and allow a fine gun or knife just sit in a display case. but for those guys that do, they will tell you and I that we are crazy to use it and lower it's resale value.
Your dad would be proud to know you are still using it, one day you will pass it down also.

RELH
 
+1 on the knives made by RELH. I just got one of his field grade (no fancy spine work or moaasic pins) models for christmas and I love it. They are excellent knives at a great price, a little less $$$ than than what you are currently looking at. RELH was very easy to work with and very willing to make the customer happy.
 
RELH, do you still have knives on ebay once in awhile? Every time I do a search it comes up empty.

Eel

Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.
 
Eel;

I had two just before Christmas, but none since. I am getting a few custom orders out of the way right now. I will try to put one on ebay this coming Saturday that I am doing with several custom orders.
Will be a drop point with finger grooves and exhibition Circassion walnut, marble cake black streaks in the walnut, and black mircarta bolster. No fancy mosaic pins or file work.
If you bid on it, it will cost you the highest bid and one week in your favorite deer spot near your home next deer season.
I am bound and determine to beat out my cuz, Overton, to your honey hole deer spot.

RELH
 
Steve, we should just money up and ask RELH if he'll give us a break for a 2 knife order. I would want a basic field version of whatever he thought would be best for deer and hogs. Jim
 
Jim, I want one that only skins B&C Mule deer.:)

Eel

Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.
 
RELH,

Shoot me an email or something with a list of the knifes you build and prices if you get a minute. I'd like to get one and I know a couple others who are interested in picking one up.

4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
I have owned a ton of knives over the years, both custom and factory built. I was then turned on to a CUTCO Drop Point Hunter D-Edge a few years ago. AMAZING! All my other knives just sit around now. The thing is a freakin work horse. The first year I owned it, the thing skinned and quartered 7 animals, and was still scary sharp. Elk/Deer hair...So what! Elk/Deer/Pig/Bear hide...who cares, a CUTCO goes through them all like a hot knife through butter. I did send it in the spring to be touched up, even though it did not need it, so to have a fresh edge for that fall. I am far from friendly on my knives. To me they are a tool and not a collectors item. They also eliminate the need to pack a stone, saving time and weight in the field.

If you want a pretty knife to look at then get one of the knives you mentioned. If you want a work horse, get a CUTCO. Every time someone sees mine in action they end up buying one! I will put mine up against any knife any time!

I am not a CUTCO rep, just know a great product when I see one!
 
Of the knives listed, you cannot overstate the excellence of the Dozier line. Professional guide's knife is as good at it gets in my opinion.
 
Hogliver;

Do not take this in the wrong way, Bob Dozier is a great knife maker with a solid reputation. I would love to have his reputation as a knife maker and sell knives in the $900.00 range. He uses D-2 steel to the point he is referred to as "Mr. D-2". I also like his simple and clean smooth lines he has in his knives. No gimicks, just good honest working blades.
D-2 steel is a very good steel for knives and is used alot in making chipper blades. It was first produced just after World War 1 and was considered one of the best steels back then. I prefer it over ATS-34 and 154CM that a lot of knife makers use today. I feel it is superior to those steels. A lot of knife makers prefer not to use D-2 steel as it work hardens during grinding if you overheat it and uses up grinding belts like crazy. 0-1 is considered a beginners steel, and D-2 is considered an "experts" steel to work with.
I used to use D-2, and still will if a customer demands it, but I switched to S30V steel after doing a lot of research on knife steels.
D-2 steel is considered a semi-stainless steel as it only has 12% chrome instead of the 13% required for stainless steel. S30V steel has 14% and is a true stainless steel with more rust resistance then D-2.
But that was not the reason I switched to S30V. S30V steel has 4 times the amount of Vanadium in it then D-2 and other stainless steels. This Vanadium is what gives S30V the ability to hold a edge longer and be more abrasion resistant with added toughness for a fine thin cutting edge.
Both D-2 and S30V are at their best for all around use in edge holding, toughness, and abrasion resistant at 60RC in hardness. There has been test after test done with both and S30V has shown to hold a sharp edge longer in these tests when both knives are heat treated to the same hardness.
As for toughness, S30V can have it's cutting edge ground at a more shallow angle, 17 degrees for a superior cutting edge then D-2 that should have a 20-22 degree edge. This is because of the added Vanadium that makes the S30V edge tougher and less prone to chipping out on hard bone strikes. D-2 is more brittle and will be more prone to chipping if ground to a more shallow angle or heat treated to a higher hardness above 60RC.
R.J. Martin is one of the top knife makers today. He has won many awards for his tactical knives and has conducted many tests on different knife steels. He also has a degree in Material Engineering and he considers S30V steel to be the best stainless steel on the market today and that is what he uses in his top line knives. He will also use D-2 at a customer's request.
There is a bottom line of what makes a good steel into a great knife. That is the heat treating. A lot of factory knives and some custom makers fall short in their heat treating or send their blades out to a commercial heat treater that will not give each individual blade the care it should have during heat treating. They heat treat hundreds of blades at one time and you will find a difference in the hardness from the blades that were on the outside of the rack as opposed to the blades that were in the center of the rack of hundreds of blades.
D-2 and S30V and most other stainless steel blades are air cooled after heating treating, not oil quenched as are high carbon steel blades. The blades on the out side cool faster and usually meet the expected hardness. blades on the inside cool slower and will be one or two degrees softer. they will dull faster due to lower hardness.
One reason I only heat treat two blades at a time to get that consistant result in hardness and test each blade with my Ames hardness tester.
Now if I could afford to buy one of Bob Dozier's top of the line knives, that would be one blade I would display in my show cabinet and consider it money in the bank drawing interest. I would want a R.J. Martin knife right beside it, Then their is Loveless, Moran, and a few others I would love to have.

RELH
 

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