Landowner preference (voucher) proposed changes

ColoradoOak

Very Active Member
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I confess to putting this on several hunting boards, so if you have already seen it, I apologize. But I want to make sure as many see it as possible.

A bill will be introduced in the Colorado legislature in the near future which will propose several changes to the Landowner Preference System (landowner vouchers). Ivan James of the Colorado Bowhunter's Association sat on the committee that created the recommendations, and he has created a Powerpoint presentation which outlines those proposed changes. It is posted on the CBA website at the following link. There is both a narrated PPT and one with no narration, the later being a much smaller file to download:

http://www.coloradobowhunting.org/

After reviewing the presentation, I have several concerns with the proposal. Obviously the greatest concern is that landowner vouchers will increase 33% in the western half of the state and 66% in the eastern half. But more importantly, it seems that there was flawed logic used to justify the increases west of I-25.

Below are some notes I wrote down after watching the presentation. I hope that Colorado hunters stay engaged on this issue. When the bill is introduced, things will likely move very quickly. The bill has the full support of and is being pushed by Rick Cables, the Director of CPW. It will take an outstanding effort by sportsmen to have much chance of changing the course of this bill.

**

Proposed changes west of I-25 include increasing landowner vouchers by 33% and then making half of all vouchers PLO. I am curious how allocation of unit-wide versus PLO voucher will occur. Will there be two separate hunt codes for each hunt? If so, it would seem likely that the vast majority of applications in the initial draw will be for unit-wide vouchers, and the PLO vouchers will be drawn in the leftover draw.

Under ?Other proposed changes,? it says that landowners will now be limited to 3x the leftover applications in the leftover draw as they qualify for in the regular draw. I don't understand why they are allowed any more applications than in the initial draw? It seems to me that if a landowner qualifies for X amount of vouchers in the initial draw, then they should not be allowed to apply for and draw more than that number of vouchers. If there are more vouchers available than there are landowners with qualifying properties applying, then those voucher licenses should be returned to the regular leftover draw. This is also a strong argument against increasing the percentage of vouchers from 15% to 20%.

Another proposal says that ?a landowner organization? will set up a voucher website to help landowners market their vouchers. If marketing has been such an issue in the past, I'm not sure why this hasn't already been done. I am curious who will be footing the bill for developing and maintaining the website? It certainly should not be CPW with sportsman?s dollars.

Under ?Other considerations,? it is noted that vouchers help to increase landowner tolerance for big game populations, and that it would take only a 6% increase in tolerance to offset the ?cost? to sportsmen of increasing the voucher percentage. This idea is misleading at best. The greatest ?tolerance? issues are with elk and pronghorn, but the vouchers are largely a DEER issue. The vast majority of elk units in the state are OTC, and therefore have no vouchers. The limited entry elk units are largely public land, where tolerance is not an issue or a limiting factor. Pronghorn are simply not a money-maker for landowners, because pronghorn are cheap and easily available in Wyoming, where quality is also better.

Deer, on the other hand, are where the money is at for landowners, because deer tags are limited statewide. Unfortunately, tolerance is largely not the issue when it comes to deer populations. The Powerpoint presentation even excludes deer in the ?anticipated outcomes? section, saying ?possible larger elk and pronghorn herds.? The sad fact is that the issues plaguing our deer herds in Colorado are not going to be solved by increasing the tolerance of landowners to the presence of deer. Between 2006 and 2011, CPW has decreased the mule deer herd OBJECTIVE west of I-25 from 583,870 to 511,300.

Deer tags issued west of I-25 have decreased from 99,296 in 2007 to 49,334 in 2012. Although there are a couple of isolated examples of tolerance being cited by CPW as a contributing factor to reduced objectives, the primary reasons are loss and fragmentation of habitat due to energy development and housing/urban development, and decreased quality of remaining habitat. Landowner tolerance is generally an issue created by poor habitat conditions on public land. Increasing vouchers to appease landowners is like putting a can of Fix-a-flat in a tire. It might work in the short term, but it doesn't address the real issues. Remember that the 50% reduction in deer tags between 2007 and 2012 has also reduced vouchers by 50%. It's no wonder landowners want a bigger slice of the pie.

Under ?Anticipated outcomes,? the presentation lists ?may be additional point creep.? I'm not sure where the uncertainty comes with this statement. There will undoubtedly be additional point creep if you take a greater percentage of tags from the public draw and give them to landowners, with no provision for losing preference points when a voucher is used.

These are just a handful of thoughts that came to mind after watching the presentation. I hope that all of you give it some serious thought and make your feelings known. The bill to change the landowner preference system will be introduced soon, and hunters need to engage the process early and often if you don't like the proposal.
 
An interesting thing happens when you do the math on tag allocations in the very best elk units in the state under the proposed changes. For 5 of the premium units non-residents would lose zero tags, while residents would lose a total of 8 tags.

And yes, in 2012, 15 of 24 landowner vouchers for unit 76 archery were drawn in the landowner leftover draw. Those tags take residents 6 points to guarantee, and non-residents 11 points to guarantee, in the regular draw. And yet, we see fit to give landowners another 8 of those tags under the proposed changes.

Proposedtagallocation_zpseb1b82fa.jpg
 
As you are already aware I have been rather vocal about this issue here on MM and with our State spokesmen. I have sent letters to the CPW and our legislatures voicing these simlar concerns. Seems what needs to happen is a push from sportsperson to put an end to this "For Profit" BS with our public owned animals while the general applicant takes it in the butt AGAIN! I am not a big fan of making compromizes with this issue but if this change is to happen then we need to try and interject a mode to where if you purchase a vouchor or get a PLO tag then all preference points are gone. Addtionally I think putting any left over LO tags back into the general pool for the left over drawing.

I'll draft anouther letter up and send it on but all sportsmen need to get proactive or they will loose hunting opprotunities and make hunting on Colorado more difficult than it already is today.

It all boils down to a landowner and outfitter money grab and being coddled to more by the state. They grumble and get their wish.

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway."
 
I fully agree. I am working on my letters and information right now. For me this is not acceptible. It means those of us who have dedicated nearly 15 years to draw a tag and now getting screwed again and will be waiting that much longer. In the meantime the wealthy is not hurt at all.

Colorado Oak, mind if I use your data in a meeting on Tuesday? This is one of many issues I plan on addressing in the meeting.
 
Also what does it do to archery and muzzy tags in 2,10, 201, etc. I would think they would loose a tag or 2 as well...
 
Anyone who is willing to be involved in fighting this proposal, please email me your contact information at the following email address (even if you have my regular address...want to keep everything together). Name and phone number would be great. Thanks.

voucher (dot) proposal at gmail (dot) com

I am very busy today, but I will address the questions above tomorrow. The short answer is that the 5% change likely has little effect on hunts with less than 10 tags. I will do the math and get back to you.
 
Maybe I am missing something but it appears to me that the landowner allocation for unit wide tags is actually decreased from 15%-10% except for deer.

The mountains, not the hills.
 
The landowner allocation for deer, elk and pronghorn will be increased from 15% to 20%. Ten percent of those will be PLO and 10% will be unit wide. But ultimately, an additional 5% of limited licenses will go to landowners.
 
>Anyone who is willing to be
>involved in fighting this proposal,
>please email me your contact
>information at the following email
>address (even if you have
>my regular address...want to keep
>everything together). Name and
>phone number would be great.
> Thanks.
>
>voucher (dot) proposal at gmail (dot)
>com
>
>I am very busy today, but
>I will address the questions
>above tomorrow. The short
>answer is that the 5%
>change likely has little effect
>on hunts with less than
>10 tags. I will
>do the math and get
>back to you.

My time and resources are limited, but I'll help where I can.
Email inbound!
 
What percent of those 15% are PLO now? If zero, then we might be losing 5% of the tags, but in a unit like 76 archery, those voucher hunters won't be hunting the public. I don't like the idea of vouchers much and really wish you would lose your points every time you used one.
 
I would certainly agree that those that draw/purchase landowner tags be required to loose their points...or at least not gain pref pts the year they purchase landowner tags! It doesn't make sense that those that purchase landowner tags accumulate rather than burn their pref pts. This may help alleviate point creep somewhat in the long term.
 
I believe a lot of this problem of not being able to draw tags is self inflicted.

Everyone wanted to hunt more mature animals,to increase the size of trophy animals, to do so meant limiting the amount of tags drawn in certain areas.

Some of you that wanted that to happen, now are reaping the consequence of the
Added attraction to those trophy units, also forgetting or just don't care that the heavy increase in numbers of animals have to winter somewhere. The ranchers and farmers,contrary to popular beliefs, can't afford to provide the extra forage they require.

Instead of taking money for reimbursement, they use vouchers for such.

That said,

There are problems with distribution of vouchers,

Since they are worth more money, people that have enough acres to get vouchers even though they have no problem with the elk,because they have no fields or crops to get destroyed in the first place, are keeping the vouchers from those that need them.

There are other places that get hammered by the elk,but don't have enough acres to qualify for vouchers.

There are others who have split up large holdings so that they are getting more of the guaranteed tags.

The problem with a lot of the smaller ranches getting PLO. tags is there are no animals on their places until the hunting seasons are done.

This is my opinion on what they should work on. But what do I know, I actually own
some of the land in question.

Working with us gets better results,than blaming us.


Dominguez
 
Domingguez - My main issue is the landowners selling tags thru a 3rd party vendor, not losing preference points when you buy a buck/bull landowner tag, not giving landowners tags that provide habitat for wintering/fawning/calving areas which are under 160 acres, and entirely limiting landowner tags to private land only (no public land hunting).

I completely agree that landowners and family should be allowed to hunt animals on their property through a secondary drawing system or sell individual tags to willing hunters directly. It seems that 1 buck or 1 bull tag if you own 160 acres or more is not much, especially like in unit 61 where the odds of getting a tag are every few years in the landowner draw. I agree that we need to come together to work on a solution. From the little research I have done I think some of the frustration is some of the CPW commissioners and landowner voucher committee might be a little distant from the average resident or non-resident hunter. Is there term limits for commissioners and committee members? Preston Nelson
 
Leonard,

I could understand limiting landowner tags to PLO if the animals were there during the hunting season. Most of the game damages happen after the seasons are closed and we understand that building high fences might slow them down some, but it goes against our grain to watch animals starve to death when there are better options.

It also stops migrations and travel into and out of the units.

As far as third party guys selling the tags. They know and talk to more people than your average farmer cares to. Example, my grandparents are eighty years old, they still do everything possible to keep the ranch going, the elk eat nearly everything they raise,not to mention knocking down the fences, building wallows in the middle of their alfalfa fields,and pawing their springs full of mud.

The Dow allows them a bull tag and a buck tag only when they can draw them.
People will bug them and call them all the time trying to work a bargain.
It drives them crazy. If someone has the connections and can get them some of their losses reimbursed. Why not?
 
Funny part is, i have yet to hear of a landowner that is claiming damages and will also let you hunt their ranch. This is about money period. What landowner wouldn't love to make a few extra thousand dollars a year tax free?
 
Here we go again. A landowner is blaming sportsmen for wanting more age diversity and sound wildlife management in our herds for the problems that the voucher system has created? Get Real! First of all if anyone is to blame for these problems, it is the CPW. They are a top heavy, self serving quasi government entity. Instead of fighting for sportsmen they cave in. They let the Wildlife Commission (80% agriculture or outfitter) push them around. What happened to the good old days when a "Legitimate Game Damage Claim" was filed on a case by case basis by the landowner. The voucher system now is akin to welfare, you know, food stamps for ranchers. They are looking for every hand out they can get their lazy, shameless hands on. Is there not an assumption when you purchase, or in most cases inherit,large acreages, that there will be wildlife on that land? Who needs to be compensated for the wildlife that have ALWAYS been on these lands? NO ONE. This is the most corrupt program in the history of Colorado wildlife management: Large landowners privatizing OUR wildlife and getting rich in the process,while smaller landowners like myself gladly being good stewards to our land and the wildlife and an elite class of voucher hunters who never were much good until they "bought" their way into a limited hunt in exclusive gmu's and the average hunter who is only rewarded a chance at an exclusive unit after many years of point building!.
 
I don't know what to take the most offence at,being called lazy and shameless or rich.

Talk to the cpw and tell them to send money instead of vouchers for their wildlife damages and we will see how fast licence fees rise.

They have the best gig anywhere, they hand out paper slips, instead of actually paying damages. Smart?

When my family came to the area,there were no elk,few deer and loads of predators
There were no fields or irrigation systems.

We invite hunters to hunt these places to push the wildlife back, but nobody can get tags.

I am not blaming the " sportsmen" in fact I support many of their ideas and goals,
I am simply stating the other side of view.

We can work on the real problems that we all face, or we can be totally ignorant and stand here calling each other names and accomplish nothing.
 
I would gladly pay double for a tag if it meant no more landowner vouchers. Again, the DOW could simply state that they will not pay out damage claims without open access to hunters. Hell, it had to be penned into law just so landowners would let the tag buyer step foot on the property it originated from!
 
Domgineuz - I see your point about your family and the issue of trying to sell the tags without getting bugged by hunters. I don't see why the CPW wouldn't allow increase harvest of cows and does outside of the season if they are doing damage. Normally once they get shot at they change areas. I looked at the draw statistics for 61 and 40 and landowners outside of the priority program are greatly reduced in drawing tags. Also agree that fighting between landowners and hunters will not benefit either party or the animals/land.
 
Landowner voucher system is currently a joke. I get tired of hearing how hard landowners have it blah, blah, blah...

It has been the same crap forever in this state. If you want a landowner voucher then the voucher is only available to be used on your land. It you choose to farm and ranch where there are wild animals, then that is your choice, you have to deal with mother nature.

Why do we sportsmen have to front the cost of your decision? No matter where you go, farmers and ranchers all face different issues and the public should not be forced to pick up the bill because you are poor at running a business. I could go into to greater detail about how American agriculture is a joke and if we really wanted to do something to help the poor farmers out it would be to take away all government subsidies and make the system a true free market, but of course that would mean these landowners and ranchers getting off the tit of the US government and function independent of subsidies, price guarantees, price limits etc. The down side would be an increase in in agriculture produced products, but really as a country we spend less of our disposable income on food than any other country in the world.

If they get a tag they must: 1. Be the only person to make a profit from the tag. 2. The tag is good only for private land. 3. If they want damages paid then they must allow public access the following season to any hunter wishing to hunt their land.

Off course that will piss the landowners off as they are of the mindset that everyone owes me something.
 
And I cannot even believe someone would think there are enough mulies left to cause damages worth needing compensation for. They give out landowner tags in 44 for example, and the herd is only at 50% of CDW objectives! Yet somehow these deer are causing enough damage that the ranchers in 44 need a tag that has sold for up to $9000?!
 
The bill has been introduced in the Senate (SB13-188) and is assigned to the Senate Agriculture, Natural Resources and Energy Committee. It is on their schedule for tomorrow afternoon. You can find the bill at this link:

http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/cl...0B8B123187257AEE00571B65?Open&file=188_01.pdf

The table shows what is at stake...about 8,425 limited licenses for deer, elk and pronghorn. You will never get them back if you let them go now. I have heard from some non-residents who think this is a good thing for them, because they purchase vouchers every year. Those people should keep in mind that the cost of a unit-wide voucher will likely increase, given that the number of unit-wide vouchers will be cut by 1/3.

Voucherallocation_zpsd353fc45.jpg


Below is the contact information for the Senate committee members, as well as the other sponsors of the bill.

Sen. Gail Schwartz (co-sponsor)
Phone: 303-866-4871
[email protected]

Sen. Greg Brophy
Phone: 303-866-6360
[email protected]

Sen. Angela Giron
Phone: 303-866-4878
[email protected]

Sen. Ted Harvey
Phone: 303-866-4881
[email protected]

Sen. Matt Jones
Phone: 303-866-5291
[email protected]

Bill sponsors not on the committee:

Sen. Lois Tochtrop
Phone: 303-866-4863
[email protected]

Rep. Ed Vigil
Phone: 303-866-2916
[email protected]
 
Do we know what time public comments will be heard? I am in Denver tomorrow for a conference and would like to attend in person if possible.
 
Keep sticking it to the common man, and eventually he will revolt. Legislation like this is just going to breed outlaws. Why wait in line for a decade to hunt your home unit, when someone with money from out of state gets to hunt it every year?
 
Colorado oak,

Thanks for posting the bill.
For the most part it looks like it addresses the issues that are being taken advantage of.

1. Giving vouchers to them that actually need them.

2. Allowing the hunters access to the private.

3.limiting licences to those that have split up large areas in order to get more vouchers.

4. Turning back unused tags back to the general hunter.

Having more PLO. Tags will no doubt help the land owners, that have a thousand plus acres. I don't think the smaller owners will benefit from them.

The CPW would not have to take vouchers out of the general percent, if they could
make sure that the owners receiving them, meet the set standards.

It has been taken advantage of, no doubt. But is a system that when used like it was intended is good.

Colorado, you keep a good watch on the state doings, have you seen anywhere that the division has increased tag numbers where their objective numbers have been met? Or do they just keep expanding their numbers?
 
Just a correction to what was posted above. The calendar for the Senate Ag, NR and Energy Committee has been changed, and this bill is scheduled for NEXT week, March 7th at 1:30pm in Senate Committee Room 353. Public testimony will be heard. Keep an eye on the calendar to make sure it does not change again, if you are interested in testifying. Also, if you think you might go to testify, it might be good to coordinate. Please email me if you think you will be going (voucher.proposal at gmail.com). It would be really great to have a good turnout.

Dominguez, I keep up on the tag allocations and herd objectives fairly well. I'd be happy to answer you, but I'm not sure I understand the question. In general, if CPW is trying to reduce a herd, tag numbers are increased, and then decreased as the herd nears their objective. If they are trying to increase the herd, tag numbers are decreased, and then increased as the population climbs and nears the objective.
 
Oak, your response is only have true in reality. Buck/doe ratios are still held as gospel instead of herd numbers. Look at unit 44, they still shoot does even though our herd is only at 50% of objective! Ask why and they will rattle off some BS about ratios. Ratios are a falicy to begin with. When a herd is decimated to the point of only having one buck and one doe left, I guess the "experts" will claim victory since it is now 50/50.
 
Colorado,

Twenty odd years ago, when the objective was too have and maintain a herd of 9500 elk in units 61 and 62.
Dow at that time cut tag numbers and restricted 61 to a limited draw area.
Five years ago they had a count of nearly 14000.
Instead of offering more tags they decided their objective had been too low,their new objective is 16500.
They have since reached and almost surpassed that number.

Then the worst drought in the last hundred years happened and yet tag numbers have not increased.

My question is,have you seen or heard anything about herd reductions anywhere?

What would it take to get a increase in tags?

It should not only be cows and calves, but a increase in total numbers of elk numbers managed for the amount of habitat on their winter range.

The summer months are easy for them as there is plenty for all. Seems funny to think that the deer were ever a problem.
 
There have been all sorts of cuts in the NW. We have seen tags roll from list B to A and licenses have been cut. Unit 11 deer tags have decreased by over 400 in unit, 11. Unit 22 saw a 155 reduction. Etc. The number of late season cow tags offered in unit 3, 301, 11,211, 22, 21, have all decreased. Tags in unit 42 have decreased. They have begun limiting the units late season youth hunt can hunt etc.

Sounds like your real issue is the objective number has changed. That happens at times and should be addressed in a separate process of the Voucher issue!
 
Just an FYI. The numbers I posted above are slightly incorrect, but I can't edit my post now. Who knew there was more than one way to get to 20%? It would be really nice if they provided a fact sheet about the bill that showed the public and the legislators exactly what they were voting to do. I will try to get a new table up later today.

Dominguez,
I took a look on the CPW website and was surprised to see that there is no herd management plan for that DAU. The first step would be to go to the GJ office and convince them to create a management plan for the unit. During that process, you would have the opportunity to provide input.

In the meantime, I took a look at the 61 and 62 statistics for the last 9 years, which is all I have. I don't see anything that supports the 16,500 objective you mentioned. It looks like they raised the objective from 8,500 to 9,500 in 2006, and they have been managing for about 1,000 more than that. The most recent count is not available yet, so it will be interesting to see where the herd is at now.

DAU-20_zpsdc8fee8c.jpg
 
Got my information from the officer in the unit. The count differs depending on the movement from unit 40 and 61 and 62. Also said at that time bull to cow ratio on 40 was coming up one to one.
 
I certainly hope that everyone will contact the senators and representatives that are involved in this bill. I would encourage everyone to let them know that this piece of crap legislation has absolutely nothing to do with population control and everything to do with money. I views this legislation very similar to the gun control measures at the state and federal levels. Keep taking small increments and pretty soon they will have the entire pie. They will not stop at 20%. It may be a few years, but the landowner lobby will be back looking for another 5% and then another 5% and so on. It won't be long until the average joe will not be able to hunt.
This BS is not a product of thee DOW, it is straight from the landowner top heavy wildlife commission. There are too many foxes guarding the hen house on this commission. I don't know how they ccan abide by their own conflict of interest rules andd still sit on the commission. We have so many people worried about point creep, this will only make things worse one small bite at a time.
Encourage everyone you know to defeat this legislation. It will not increase wildlife populations and will not benefit the majority of the hunting communities access to private land.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-13 AT 09:20AM (MST)[p]Well put Peanut. These tags have turned into easy cash for landowners and they will continue to push for more. I fear that the deck is stacked against us though, given the make up of the commission and the power of the ranching lobby.

I'd like someone to give me a good explanation for why this legislation is necessary. Is there something wrong with the current system? Absolutely not, this is a money grab plain and simple.
 
Here are corrected proposed voucher numbers, based on 2012 tag allocations.

Pronghorn vouchers go from 5,313 to 5,547. (Pronghorn east of I-25 is currently at 25%)

Deer vouchers go from 11,487 to 15,354.

Elk vouchers go from 4,044 to 5,416.

SB13-188 will be heard by the Senate Agriculture, Natural Resources and Energy Committee on Wednesday, March 6. Once again, contact information for the committee members is below:

Sen. Gail Schwartz (co-sponsor)
Phone: 303-866-4871
[email protected]

Sen. Greg Brophy
Phone: 303-866-6360
[email protected]

Sen. Angela Giron
Phone: 303-866-4878
[email protected]

Sen. Ted Harvey
Phone: 303-866-4881
[email protected]

Sen. Matt Jones
Phone: 303-866-5291
[email protected]

Bill sponsors not on the committee:

Sen. Lois Tochtrop
Phone: 303-866-4863
[email protected]

Rep. Ed Vigil
Phone: 303-866-2916
[email protected]
 
I would be more for breaking down the voucher allotment by habit and keeping vouchers unit wide since this is for migratory animals & what is true for today may not be true for tomorrow on their location. If it is deemed that 5% of a unit is considered privately owned deer habitat then 5% of tags go to LOs, if 25% then 25% goes to LOs & so on.

Of course anyone who already has a tag in hand can pay a trespass fee, so making more tags PLO doesn't make sense...some folks will let you hunt, others won't, that won't change.

This is just something that involves self-interests all the way around and no matter what happens it won't be fair for all involved. I'd hate for proper wildlife management to be the biggest loser in the deal though.
 
Most sportsmen don't understand that the majority of the best winter range and water resources in the state of Colorado were filed on by homesteaders and are now private land. These private ranches are critical to wintering big game animals and also provide valuable feed year round, depending on the ranch location. With the Priority Landowner Program, landowners now see a value to having big game animals eat their feed and ruin their fences. In addition, sportsmen benefit by being able to hunt private ground that they otherwise could not do. It's good for big game animals, it's good for the sportsmen and it's good for landowners.

That being said, there is a problem with some private land having too many big game animals and some private land having very few big game animals, but both landowners presently receive the same allotment. The CPW is now suggesting a balance of half PLO (Private Land Only) and half regular vouchers in an effort to help with this problem. Actually, a lot of landowners will now see fewer vouchers, only 10% instead of 15%, with the new proposed change that gives the split 20% voucher allotment to landowners, as many landowners will not choose the PLO.

Those short sighted and jealous-hearted hunters—who don't own land and cannot afford to buy a landowner voucher—demonize landowners and outfitters and run down the CPW, just like the “Occupy Wall Street” people that demonize the 1% of people who have money (basically the redistribute the wealth mentality; those that are entitled to something for nothing).
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-14 AT 05:47PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-14 AT 05:36?PM (MST)

>How come those that purchase vouchers
>keep their bonus points??


Because Preference Points are gained and lost in the draw. Vouchers are bought out right. The Landowners gain or use's the Preference points on the Vouchers for the Hunters!
 

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