Lead Bullet Debate - Article in Hunting Illustrated

[Founder]

Just picked up the most recent issue on Christensen's Hunting Illustrated....WOW, that bull on the cover is something else! What an incredible year that guy had in 2009.

The magazine is a good read. I like John Mogle's article on long range shooting. It's good to hear him remind folks that shooting game at long range is not easy and takes LOTS of practice. Just as shooting long range with a bow, it takes lots of practice to get good.

But, the article I wanted to bring up here was the one featured on page 22....The Dueling Duo....Should we use non-lead bullets?
What do you guys think? Read it and lets hear your opinion. Before my wifes Paunsaugunt hunt last year, she received a letter asking that she use non-lead bullets. By the time we got the letter, she had already shot, felt good, so we opted to just use the bullets I already had. Did we kill a condor????

What do you guys think? Should sportsmen begin using non-lead ammo.? Or, by doing so are we caving into what the anti-hunters want?

Let's hear your opinions...

 

[BuckSnort]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-10-10 AT 04:13PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-10-10 AT 04:12?PM (MST)

We have debated this in the past...Yes I am sick of caving to the Anti's....

CA (Most of the state)is on its second year now for the lead ban...It's a bunch of BS...

Aside from the causes of the Condor's dying (which they have no proof that it is from lead bullets) why do we spend millions on an overgrown buzzard that is destined for extinction????

I say we round them all up...Sell tags and have a condor shoot...The proceeds can go to something much more important....

Disclaimer:
The poster does not take any responsibility for any hurt or bad feelings. Reading threads poses inherent risks. The poster would like to remind readers to make sure they have a functional sense of humor before they visit any discussion board.

 

[REDDOG]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-10-10 AT 04:18PM (MST)[p]I shoot Barnes by choice..But if a greenie told me to shoot them, I'd switch to lead

oh, and did you hear that the tree huggers are now claiming condors are being killed by copper poisoning? it aint about the condors, they cant adapt..let'em go extinct, these idiots think nothing went extinct before mankind, critters have evolved or went extinct long before we were here...screw the tree huggers, there's no middle ground with them, so why even try?

 

[deadibob]

I shoot Barnes bullets by choice as well. I also cast a lot of bullets from lead for everything from muzzleloaders to handguns and rifles. If they ban lead I'm not going to throw away all my casting gear.

I used to think the best thing for condors was K.C. Masterpiece, but maybe Bullseye is more appropriate.

 

[dwalton]

Junk science. They are manipulating the data to get the results they want.

 

[AyA]

Well Founder,
Don't know if you killed any Condors or not?
But I did see this pic shortly after the 2009 pauns deer hunt,he ain't dead but looks a little sickly,gotta be lead poisoning

nice post/thanks for sharring

 

[ElmerFudd]

Condors do get sick and die if they eat lead. I'm not sure if they aren't just doomed due to other environmental factors anyway...But it really isn't that big of a deal for me to help them have the best chance available. As long as it's voluntary, cool by me. I am using Barnes on my hunts in that area this year (AZ 10 elk and UT southern muzz)...but the Barnes MZ's just seem to shoot best of anything I have tried in my muzz anyway.

Something to think about in your choice, especially if a pregnant lady might be eating your harvest...Lead isn't too good for us either

 

[dillon]

I would say we should use non-leaded ammo. I usually just hunt with a bow but when I rifle hunt I go to southern Utah. When you apply they actually ask you if you are willing to use unleaded ammo, and I believe they will give you a box of it if you ask in Cedar City, but I may be wrong there.

Condors are not the prettiest birds but they are cool to watch fly around because of how big they are.

Are they worth the millions of dollars that have been spent to save them? I am still uncertain what my response to the question.

 

[Striker]

Here's my feelings on the whole ordeal. I'm afraid my ascension to the top of the soap box has come. Lead or no lead? This is not the Question.

I did read the article in Christensen's magazine. I quite enjoy the articles that the dueling duo put together. For the most part I try to remain as neutral as possible and keep an open mind. However, this topic has aroused the beast within on several occasions.

I have never liked being told how to act or what to do. Am I a non conformist? No, I just enjoy my liberties. Do I respect the law and those who enforce it? Absolutely! However I do not believe that the guidelines we choose to accept are always warranted or wise. In the case of the condors, the likelihood of them ever eating a gut pile with a lead bullet in it seems slim to me. Most hunters that I have known usually try to get an animal out whole especially deer with the exception of the gut pile.

Because the Great state of California in its infinite wisdom and all of the bleeding hearts therein have found it necessary to ban lead containing bullets does not mean that we need to. The war on lead has been being fought for a long time. they have gotten it out of gasoline, paint and many other things. So naturally what is next? Bullets of course.

I have great Respect for Barnes Bullets(and others that have made similarly designed bullets) and use their products to hunt with. Is "Lead Free" one of the reasons that I chose their bullets? Yes. However it is not because of its non toxic benefit. The choice was made because of the structural advantages of using a bullet made into one solid mass. The choice is mine and only mine to shoot these bullets.

My fear is that as we choose to "go along." That we will be setting ourselves up for problems down the road. It would seem a natural flow that once people start to use non lead bullets that new regulations will come to make it mandatory because it is happening anyway.

The problems that will come is increased cost of ammunition. It would also seem reasonable to assume that these regulations will spread to other surrounding areas as well.

It is true that in the past bullets were offered to those who were willing to shoot non lead bullets. Who pays for these. Why you and I of course with our tax money. Money that could be used for what it was originally intended. Our wildlife and their habitat. Its a slippery slope that involves much more than a bullet that is used to hunt with.

 

[mevertsen]

Ok,

Lion hunting gone. Check...

lead bullets banned. Check...

Now they are working on shutting down bear hunting with bears in California... (almost check)

IMO - and from what I have read by statements from the HSUS, ANY victory to make any part of hunting just a little bit more of a PITA is a victory for these guys. The HSUS has said that they want to ban hunting PERIOD, and they will do it one little piece at a time.

Any law that makes anything regarding hunting illegal, or more restrictive than it was before is BAD. That is just one chip off the big block of hunting.

If they can come up with some BS law that gets ONE person to stop hunting, then they have succeeded, because that is one less person than before. And they will keep going until there are no more hunters.

Later,

Marcial

 

[BuckSnort]

>Ok,
>
>Lion hunting gone. Check...
>
>lead bullets banned. Check...
>
>Now they are working on shutting
>down bear hunting with bears
>in California...
>(almost check)
>
>IMO - and from what I
>have read by statements from
>the HSUS, ANY victory to
>make any part of hunting
>just a little bit more
>of a PITA is a
>victory for these guys.
>The HSUS has said that
>they want to ban hunting
>PERIOD, and they will do
>it one little piece at
>a time.
>
>Any law that makes anything regarding
>hunting illegal, or more restrictive
>than it was before is
>BAD. That is just
>one chip off the big
>block of hunting.
>
>If they can come up with
>some BS law that gets
>ONE person to stop hunting,
>then they have succeeded, because
>that is one less person
>than before. And they
>will keep going until there
>are no more hunters.
>
>Later,
>
>Marcial

BINGO !!!! you are 100% correct....I dont understand why other hunters and outdoor folk dont understand this...

Disclaimer:
The poster does not take any responsibility for any hurt or bad feelings. Reading threads poses inherent risks. The poster would like to remind readers to make sure they have a functional sense of humor before they visit any discussion board.

 

[Phantom Hunter]

Lead works, nuff said. We better all protect our right to hunt in all facets or we will not be hunting at all.

Phantom Hunter

 

[FIREHAWK]

I don't know how fast lead would do damage to these ugly critters, but I shoot copper where requested/mandated. I would think there would be a lot of pass throughs so the lead issue would be spotty at best. Not sure how soon lead would pass thru their system and how long it is retained in their bloodstream. They should do tests on more numerous species to test this theory before jumping to conclusions. I could see lead having an effect on adults if induced in sufficient quantity without the ability to excrete it and the meat is so contaminated it is toxic. Are they suggesting burying the entrails, also? I read of this same issue in the Grand Canyon area, Condors affected but I believe it was bird hunting lead shot. I wonder if the 1000% plus percentage increase in the protected RAVEN (winged coyotes) population is robbing their nests like they are doing to all birds in this state and others. They are also heavily impacting desert tortise soft shells when born but they are protected under the migratory bird act for some ignorant reason. They are one of the smartest birds. I have seen them pick up tortise and drop them from elevation to roadway to break open smaller tortise shells, if fall does not work a car does. I'm sure Condors have more than one thing against them. I notice less buzzards also since raven takeover...Oh yea, sorry, it's the lead.

 

[hossblur]

We have spent millions and millions on condors and pandas. WHY?? WHy is it that the lovers love to tell us their is no god, just evolution, then when they see animals that are damned by evolution(pandas don't breed, condors can't procreate) rather than let nature take its course we have to stop the earths rotation to "protect" these animals?? Simply put, evolution is the result of survival of the fittest and condors and pandas are no where near the fittest. I would think that all the uranium in that country would be far more damaging than that lead .22 in a dead rabbit, but WHATEVER, I simply have a degree in biology, I am not nearly as bright as some high school drop out smoking pot all day and saving the world, "MAN"

 

[RELH]

I do not buy the story about lead bullets causing problems with the condors. I read one article where one of the condors raised in captivity also developed high lead content in it's body. This points the finger at another source, possible natural, for the lead problems.
The article stated the researchers kept this fact hush hush. That is not the first time liberal enviros have hushed up facts or planted false evidence to support their agenda.
Also as pointed out above, most shots are a complete pass though and the bullet gets buried in the ground and not left in the carcass or gut pile.

At best, incomplete faulty facts for source of lead comtamination, at worse, plain old B.S. for their real agenda.

RELH

 

[rutnbuck]

Never read the story! 99 and 100% of all documenting evidence supporting anything to do with anything of this nature is so lop sided presented by some anti hunting tree hugger. We all know any statistic is just a number supported by a hypothesis with out substantial objecting statistics indicating otherwise and can be proven wrong with just 1 factor not listed.
For instance I think the lead came from the paint they use to paint #S on their wings. I think they ought to chase them around a little more paint them up some more and put a few more radio transmitters on them. (Leave the condors alone give em space. Water contains lead. However lead along with 10 and 500 other minerals accumulate in the body.
I would bet not one, none or anything has been presented indicating the possibility exists that lead was natural or from some other phenomenal reason.
Of all the articles I have read about this! Not one looks at the indicator species that the Condors survive on. I would like to see one article that supports the fact that the indicator species are thriving in that area with the exception of predators. Ya know deer, birds, gofers, rats and cats. Heck the squaw fish has to pack his own water and a rabbit has to pack a sack lunch if he wants to eat in this barren waste land. Here is a number not included. How many condors go dig up bullets and eat them? It is hog wash.
Rutnbuck