License refunds/reissuance

C

ColoradoOak

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On the rulemaking notice for the September Commission meeting:

Chapter W-16 - "Procedural Rules for the Wildlife Commission? 2 CCR 406-16

Open for review of regulations pertaining to refunds and reissuance of big game licenses.

There will likely be no information posted until about a week before the Sept. 10 meeting, but I suspect they may be considering changes to the license return policy. It has been discussed internally in the last year. If you have any interest in the subject, you might want to pay attention to the agenda and supporting documents when they are posted.
 
>I'd like to see them issue
>the tag to somebody!


That's the proposal. All returned licenses will go to the leftover list first come, first served. No preference points used.
 
CPW needs to find a fair way to issue the tags, take pps out of the pool to reduce creep, and keep as much $ as possible. CPW should wind up requiring the # of points a returned license is worth to reissue it. CO has been far too lenient in refunding pps and $ for returned tags, compared to every other state. CPW says it wants to address point creep but failed to do so in the last rule revision. Here is their big chance!

If Bubba decides not to hunt and gives his tag back (hypothetically 10 pps), then either Bubba or the next guy who gets the tag should pony up 10 pps. If there were a drawing or stand-by list for reissue of returned tags, then the top points guy on the list could decide to use his points on the best tag, another tag, or pass. That would take points out of the overall pool, and address point creep somewhat. The proposed plan does nothing to reduce creep, by reissuing tags that should cost x points for 0 points.

Put another way, if I drew a tag this year w 25 pps, over an applicant w 23 PPs, I can return my tag and get all 25 pps restored. The guy w 23 pps can't get the tag b/c they don't reissue. So my 25 and his 24 pps are still out there for next year, and I can draw the same tag next year over the guy who waited another year and accumulated another point. That is the formula for point creep, and is unfair to boot.
 
I like the 30 days change, but don't understand who would have a shot at the tag that was turned in.

For sheep, they call a "waiting list" of people who applied to sell the tag. If you take it, it makes their points go to 0.

Why wouldn't they do the same thing for these tags? Are you saying someone turns back in a tag for a 20 point unit, it will go to first come first served to someone who didn't apply for it and had 0 points?? That would insure it never goes to you or I. Word of mouth within the department would take care of that.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
> Are you saying someone
>turns back in a tag
>for a 20 point unit,
>it will go to first
>come first served to someone
>who didn't apply for it
>and had 0 points??
>That would insure it never
>goes to you or I.

That is what is being proposed.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-09-15 AT 02:20PM (MST)[p]

That part makes no sense. Email sent, for all the good a nonresident input will have...

I asked if I can camp on their doorstep starting 35 days out and be first in line for any turned back in! And they will be deluged with phone calls with people checking as well.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
I believe that is the way NEVADA handles tags returned due to death or medical etc.

Brian
http://i44.tinypic.com/es7x8z.jpg[/IMG]
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-09-15 AT 06:49PM (MST)[p]Do you believe the first come first served on the premo tags will be employed by the state?
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-09-15 AT 08:09PM (MST)[p]Am I reading correctly that they do reissue tags for moose and sheep and some RFW licenses?If true, who the heck is getting these tags?

Second, I would put a 2 point PP penalty for turning in a tag, unless the reason was for deployment or serious medical problem. No refunds

Third, there needs to be a waiting list generated. If they think they need more money for administration fees for generating a list, they can have an extra box to check when you apply for 10 bucks extra to be on the list.


Fourth, I question their numbers. How many tags that are turned in but yet the hunter buy's a tag for another season because that's when his buddies are going and he screwed up the season when applying. I have a friend that turned in his 4th season cow tag and bought a otc bull and a 3rd season cow that was leftover. I hope they are not misleading in actual money or revenue lost.
 
DW, I'm not sure I understand your question. The proposal is to add all returned limited licenses to the leftover list as they are returned, so they would be available to the first person who logs on and purchases them, just like any other leftover. For example, if someone decides to turn in their 4th season unit 44 buck license on October 5, that license could appear on the leftover list the next day and be purchased just the same as someone could purchase a leftover cow license. Given the historically poor record of hunters providing comments to the Commission, I would guess it will be approved at the November meeting.

LoneWati,

Yes, they do reissue those tags mentioned. I hear of a few guys getting reissued sheep and goat tags each year. In fact, I was called as an alternate for a goat tag in 2007, one week before the season.

Regarding your second and third, write an email.

Fourth, their numbers are accurate. Even if a hunter purchases a different license, there is someone out there who wanted the license he turned in. The question is whether they have already purchased a different license or have made other plans, which is possible. But it is lost revenue if they don't end up issuing a limited license for which there was demand. However, you can't predict future customer behavior under the proposed new system, so they may not actually realize that full increase in revenue.
 
Points definitely need to be charged. but my feelings are if you have a buck/bull license then you should lose your points no matter how you get it.
Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-10-15 AT 00:26AM (MST)[p]I am fed up with the commission! On the Big Horn Sheep issue I sent 3 separate emails to all the commission. All three from different email address and all three strongly opposing the idea that the private landowners should get twp to 3 times the number of tags, ultimately I have little or no faith at all they give a crap about anything we have to say. Not one response from a single commission member. None!

That being said, I see an opportunity here for a revenue generation. In the regular draw we should have an option to enter into a separate draw list for $10 or $20 per species. When we enter into that draw we have bought a lottery drawn number that puts us onto a list for the returned tags that take more than 3, 5, etc. Resident points. Similar to how WY did the NR Bison hunts. You pay for a spot then based on your number you might be lucky to sit number one on the lost for a great license, or you might get unlucky and be number 20000. Since this is a lottery and a risk, it would not require your points, but would still require paying the normal tag cost. If your in seat number one you can pass on any tag and hold out or you can take the tag. The only reason why you should not loose your points is because you put up the extra money. Also you could take a decent hunt but it ,sy not be the hunt that you have 20 points already saved for... Revenue would vary, but for a small fee I a, sure many will enter just for the lottery chance.

The person in the number 1 spot would be a very lucky person and could hold out for a great tag, lower on the list will probably take the first tag they get.

All tags that can be drawn for less than a couple points can just go back into the left over list,

While this does nothing to fix point creep I do not think that anything will fix that issue! If I have 16 points for deer and a 10 point tag comes up I sure in hell will not loose those years I spent chasing my tag. Sorry but I do not see how using point will allow the tag to be reissued unless we are only talking about the top 1% of tags. In that case yes, but when your talking about maybe 2 or 3 tags total it really does not change point creep at all,
 
Why not let the license be transferred just like a landowner voucher? Why not let me burn my 14 elk points on a GMU 61 or 76 tag and make $5000 too? Seems fair since landowners can do it
 
I asked the DOW about whether trophy tags would just be put in the "leftover" list and he said NO. Here is his reply:

This proposal is referring to "All returned licenses that are not currently reissued manually would be added to the leftover list for other hunters to select. These licenses would not use preference points to purchase". This means that we already have a system in placed called a hand draw for prized trophy unit licenses which are done manually that are returned. Those licenses that are done manually would not be added to the leftover list for other hunters to purchase on a first come first sever basis. I believe that this proposal is addressing the licenses that are returned and are not currently circulated back into the available licenses (leftover list) that do not require years worth of saved preference points to draw.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
tx, I'm not sure who you spoke with, but the proposal is to reissue all returned limited deer, elk and pronghorn licenses via the leftover list. I left the Commission meeting today after the bighorn sheep issue, so I didn't hear the discussion about this proposal. But I just got off the phone with a CPW staff person that was involved in development of this proposal and he confirmed that as it is currently written, the intent is to reissue deer, elk and pronghorn through the leftover list. Sheep, moose, goat and RFW would continue to be manually reissued.

It sounds like public input could definitely determine what is approved in November.
 
I emailed him back what you said and this is his reply:


Currently we reissue Sheep, Goat, Moose, and Male/Eithersex Ranching for wildlife licenses to the next up customer. In the proposed system, these licenses would still be reissued in the same way as they currently are. All other licenses that are returned (that are not currently reissued at all) would be eligible to be reissued through the leftover list, without the use of preference points. This could mean that a higher preference point area (that is not one of the above licenses) may be resold through the leftover list without the use of preference points. In the same way that our current process does not have an effect on the draw(not reissuing all other licenses to the next up), this proposal will also not effect the draw."






So I was wrong in stating that we reissue high preference point licenses when they are returned for elk or deer; we do not currently reissue those licenses at all.






If you feel that this proposal should not be passed I recommend attending a Colorado Parks and WIldlife Commission meeting or if you are unable to do that I would suggest writing a formal letter to the Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission at;







Colorado Parks & Wildlife Commission

c/o Public Involvement Unit

Colorado Parks and Wildlife

6060 Broadway, Denver, CO 80216

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Still say this passes, those high pp tags will magically end up in the pockets of state employees.
 
One other point.

If they do charge the points on these tags, then the real question becomes, who the heck will blow their points on a tag with less than 30 days to scout and who the heck is going to be able to get the time off to hunt. Forcing points to be burnt would ensure that the tags went to really low point holders and would not really do anything to address PP creep.

If I have 20 points saved up for a tag, I am not blowing those 20 points on a tag where I have not scouted and where I have not arranged significant time off from work well in advance.

An even worse nightmare scenario. I am watching the list have my easy to get tag in hand, see a hard to get tag pop up. I dump my tag to get the other tag and soon there is a small avalanche started of people sitting on the net watching and waiting for a better tag while dumping their tag.

I really like the fact that the tags are being reissued but think they need a better system for any tags taking X number of points.
 
Create a list of those that applied for those high pp tags and offer it to the next person on the list with the pp's to get it like most other states do. No need to reinvent the wheel.
 
If I have 20 points invested in a unit and am on a waiting list and don't have a clue where to start hunting, I am an idiot.

They won't have any trouble selling the tag to someone on the short list. Currently they call guys for sheep, etc. with only a few days notice and they sell them. And for that, they lose their points

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
I just listened to the audio on this topic from the September Commission meeting. There is no comment from the Commissioners, which means it will likely pass as presented at the November meeting without input from the public right now (emails to the Commission). I am a bit surprised that there is not more discussion about reissuing high demand licenses to the next person in line, rather than randomly on the leftover list. It seems like it would be straightforward to select some criteria for at least issuing high demand licenses to the next in line, like is currently done for sheep, moose, goat and RFW licenses. Perhaps use the same criteria as for determining 80/20 units, except with an updated list annually.
 
This is a golden opportunity for the Commission to take an action that will impact point creep. If they fail to do so as they did w the latest 5 year structure lack-of-revision, it will demonstrate further that they value point creep. When words and actions contradict, believe the actions.
 
>I just listened to the audio
>on this topic from the
>September Commission meeting. There
>is no comment from the
>Commissioners, which means it will
>likely pass as presented at
>the November meeting without input
>from the public right now
>(emails to the Commission).
>I am a bit surprised
>that there is not more
>discussion about reissuing high demand
>licenses to the next person
>in line, rather than randomly
>on the leftover list.
>It seems like it would
>be straightforward to select some
>criteria for at least issuing
>high demand licenses to the
>next in line, like is
>currently done for sheep, moose,
>goat and RFW licenses.
>Perhaps use the same criteria
>as for determining 80/20 units,
>except with an updated list
>annually.

I am not happy that they did not explore that topic further. I do think that they should look at short listing the top units.

Will it have any effect on point creep? Not really, the only way to change point creep is to offer more licenses than people playing the point game.

I will send another round of emails expressing my concern.
 
, the
>only way to change point
>creep is to offer more
>licenses than people playing the
>point game.


actually there are plenty of tags to go around to stop point creep. If people were required to use their points for any and all buck/bull tag they receive no matter what choice, raffle, drawing, voucher etc... There would be ZERO point creep and you could draw any tag in the state as a resident for 5 points or under after a couple years when the system flushed out.
But no one wants to do that cause they are to set in their ways, hate change and don't want to use THEIR PRECIOUS points.

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
 
Other than the "brother in law" deal where those left over tags never see a chance for you or I to get one, that makes ZERO sense. If legit, there will be guys camping on their doorstep and checking their computer constantly to try and snare one!

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Make the eligible person have at least 75% of the points of the tag that was returned and make them use their points for the tag. It could go first come first serve, but please do not give a 20-point tag to the first person to get lucky to log into the system, they could have never ever hunted Colorado and now they receive the best tag in the state? That would be absolutely crazy. All those 15 points and up would be eligible in my scenario. If for some reason the tag didn't sell (I expect all would sell, then open it up to 50% of the points after 2 days...and then 25% after 4 days....)

If it were a 0-point unit, everyone is eligible and only use the number of points from the individual that was required to draw the tag in the first place. In this case, the person with 20 points would not use any points to buy a zero point tag.
 
This proposal was just passed by the Commission with no changes and no discussion. If anyone sent emails expressing concern or suggesting changes, they were not brought up at the meeting.
 
I think its great that the CPW will re-issue licenses, but I do think that they should be made available to Residents only for the first 24 hours they go back on the list. Not drawing a tag for a 0 point area this year while seeing nothing but Out of State hunters everywhere really sucked.
 
>I think its great that the
>CPW will re-issue licenses, but
>I do think that they
>should be made available to
>Residents only for the first
>24 hours they go back
>on the list. Not drawing
>a tag for a 0
>point area this year while
>seeing nothing but Out of
>State hunters everywhere really sucked.
>

C'mon COHunter, you're just making that up... ;)
 
Looks to me that the returning of the tags has to happen 30 days before season begins for the license in Question.
 
This is just ripe for all kinds of cheating and corruption. Think of this, guy draws a tag in a 22 point deer unit, decides he does not want to hunt it, tells his rich brother in law about it, they both go down for the turn in, brother in law takes tag once its turned in, burns zero points, turns around and greases the palm of the guy who drew the tag in the back parking lot. How are they going to prevent this, because this is what is going to happen.
 
You do realize that the license won't go to the leftover list the instant it's turned in, right? This would occur days or weeks later, as the turn-ins go through channels and eventually get processed & posted in batches. So the brother-in-law has no advantage over the thousands of other guys watching the leftover list each day, looking for prime tags.
 
>You do realize that the license
>won't go to the leftover
>list the instant it's turned
>in, right? This would occur
>days or weeks later, as
>the turn-ins go through channels
>and eventually get processed &
>posted in batches. So the
>brother-in-law has no advantage over
>the thousands of other guys
>watching the leftover list each
>day, looking for prime tags.
>


I doubt that's the case. I bet it gets turned around quickly. If someone turns the tag in 30 days prior to the hunt and it takes weeks to process, then the whole thing is basically for not.

That said, I dont think anyone knows for certain as it will be a new policy... unless you perhaps work for the department?
 
I think it will be difficult for regular hunters to abuse the new policy. It would be much easier for CPW employees to abuse it.
 
ColoradoOak's example is the troubling issue for me. Joe turns in his 44 3rd season tag and Bob at the State office has a friend who would like that tag. Bob tells him when it becomes available and he gets it as soon as it hits the list.

The fair way to do it would be to hold a list of unsuccessful applicants on a simple spreadsheet and call the next in line when a tag is turned in.

Easiest way to do it would be follow Wyoming's example and not allow tags to be turned in. That is my vote.
 

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