List of Utah Auction Tags

bowhunt

bowhunt

Long Time Member
Messages
3,199
Here is the list of the Utah Auction Tags, for this upcoming year.
These tags are taken out of the LE draw.

Do not get mad about this!
Without it 5-10 Utah Guides would be out of business.

Without these tags the Deer population in Utah would not be exploding like it is!

Without these tags we would have fewer "Conservation Groups" and Big Game "Consulting" would almost dry up.

Here is the list, WARNING! LONG AND GETTING LONGER!

Manti January 31st
1- Plateau Antelope Any Weapon
2- Central Mtns Manti Premium Elk
3- Central Mountains Manti South Bear

Richfield February 8th
1- Mount Dutton Elk Muzzleloader
2- Paunsaugunt Elk Any Weapon
3- Plateau Fish Lake Thousand Lake Elk Any Weapon
4- Pahvant Elk Hunters Choice (LO)
5- Paunsaugunt Deer Hunter Choice (LO)
6- Plateau Antelope Any Weapon
7- Southwest Desert Antelope Any Weapon
8- Monroe Cougar
9- Plateau-Boulder-Kaiparowitz Bear
10- Central Turkey
11- Northern Turkey

Expo February 13-16
1- Statewide Elk
2- Fillmore Pahvant Premium Elk
3- Monroe Premium Elk
4- Mount Dutton Premium Elk
5- Plateau, Boulder/Kaiparowitz Any Weapon Elk
6- Plateau, Boulder/Kaiparowitz Archery Elk
7- Plateau Fish Lake/Thousand Lake Premium Elk
8- San Juan Premium Elk
9- San Juan Any Weapon Elk
10- San Juan Any Weapon Elk
11- La Sal Premium Elk
12- San Juan Elk Hunters Choice (LO)
13- Pahvant Elk Hunters Choice (LO)
14- Pahvant Elk Hunters Choice (LO)
15- Henry Mountain Deer Season Choice
16- Henry Mountain Deer Hunter Choice (LO)
17- San Juan Muzzleloader Deer
18- Antelope Island Deer
19- Paunsaugunt Deer Hunter Choice (LO)
20- Paunsaugunt Deer Hunter Choice (LO)
21- Paunsaugunt Deer Hunter Choice (LO)
22- Paunsaugunt Deer Hunter Choice (LO)
23- Statewide Desert Bighorn NR (UTFNAWS)
24- New Found Land California Bighorn NR (UTFNAWS)
25- San Juan La Sal Desert Bighorn NR (UTFNAWS)
26- Zion/Pine Valley Desert Sheep Tag (UTFNAWS)
27- Antelope Island California Bighorn
28- Statewide Antelope
29- Nine Mile Anthro Antelope Any Weapon
30- Statewide Bison
31- Henry Mountains Bison Late
32- Henry Mountains Bison Early
33- Statewide Moose
34- Wasatch Mountains Moose
35- Beaver Mountain Goat Late
36- Beaver Mountain Goat Nanny
37- North Slope/South Slope High Uinta's West Mountain Goat
38- Statewide Bear
39- San Juan Bear
40- La Sal Bear
41- San Carlos Apache Tribe's Commissioner Elk Permit
42- San Carlos Apache Tribe's Commissioner Coues Deer Permit
43- San Carlos Apache Tribe's Commissioner Mtn Lion Permit

St George February 22nd
1- Southwest Desert Elk Any Weapon
2- Southwest Desert Elk Muzzleloader
3- Paunsaugunt Deer Hunters Choice (LO)
4- Southwest Desert Antelope Any Weapon
5- Dutton Paunsaugunt Antelope Any Weapon
6- Pine Valley Cougar

Cedar City February 28th
1- Mount Dutton Elk Premium
2- Mount Dutton Paunsaugunt Antelope
3- Paunsaugunt Deer Hunter Choice (LO)
4- Pine Valley Cougar

Davis/Weber March 1st
1- Pahvant Elk Hunters Choice (LO)
2- San Juan Elk Ridge Elk Hunter Choice (LO)
3- Plateau Fish Lake Thousand Lake Elk Archery
4- Morgan South Rich Antelope Any Weapon
5- Ogden, Willard Mountain Goat Late
6- Paunsaugunt Deer Hunters Choice (LO)
7- Chalk Creek/Kamas/North Slope/ Summit Bear
8- Cache North Rich Antelope
9- Uinta's Cougar
10- Northern Turkey (2)

Nephi March 7th (TBD)
1- Central Mountains Nebo Elk Any Weapon
2- Paunsaugunt Deer Hunter Choice (LO)
3- Central Mountains Manti North Bear
4- Central Turkey (2)

Cache March 15th
1- Cache Meadow Elk Any Weapon
2- Cache North Elk Any Weapon
3- Cache South Elk Premium
4- Cache North Elk Muzzleloader
5- Crawford Mountain Deer Muzzleloader
6- Paunsaugunt Deer Hunter Choice (LO)
7- Cache North Rich Antelope
8- Cache Cougar
9- Northern Turkey (2)
10- Cache Antlerless Elk

San Juan March 21st
1- San Juan Elk Ridge Elk Hunter Choice (LO)
2- La Sal Mountains Elk Any Weapon
3- San Juan Elk Ridge Deer Hunter Choice of Season
4- Monroe Cougar
5- La Sal Bear
6- San Juan Bear
7- Southeast Turkey (2)

Orem March 22nd
1- Cache South Elk Tag Any Weapon
2- Wasatch Mountains Elk Premium
3- Paunsaugunt Deer Hunter Choice (LO)
4- Pahvant Elk Hunters Choice (LO)
5- Plateau Antelope Any Weapon
6- Wasatch Mountains Moose
7- Wasatch Mountains West Bear
8- Northern Turkey
9- South East Turkey
10- Wasatch/Manti Cougar

Delta March 28th
1- West Desert Deep Creek Premium Elk
2- Pahvant Elk Hunters Choice (LO)
3- Paunsaugunt Deer Hunter Choice (LO)
4- South West Desert Antelope Any Weapon
5- West Desert Vernon Deer Muzzleloader
6- Nine Mile/Anthro/Range Creek Bear

Beaver March 29th
1- Beaver Elk Any Weapon
2- Paunsaugunt Deer Hunter Choice (LO)
3- South West Desert Antelope
4- Beaver Antelope Any Weapon
5- Beaver Bear
6- Monroe Cougar

Garfield Kane County April 4th
1- Paunsaugunt Elk Tag Premium
2- Paunsaugunt Archery Deer
3- Paunsaugunt Deer Hunter Choice (LO)
4- Paunsaugunt Deer Management (LO)
5- Mount Dutton Paunsaugunt Antelope (Landowner Rubys Inn)
6- Monroe Cougar

Uinta Basin April 12th
1- South Slope Diamond Mountain Premium Elk
2- Book Cliffs Little Creek Roadless Premium Elk
3- South Slope Antlerless Elk
4- South Slope Diamond Mountain Archery Elk
5- South Slope Diamond Mountain Archery Deer
6- Book Cliffs Deer Season Muzzleloader Deer
7- North Slope/ West Daggett/Three Corners Antelope (2)
8- North Slope/South Slope High Uinta's West Mountain Goat
9- Book Cliffs Bitter Creek South Bear
10- San Juan Elk Hunters Choice (LO)
11- North Slope/West Daggett/Three Corners Bear
12- Book Cliffs Bitter Creek South Premium Elk
13- Book Cliffs Little Creek Roadless Any Weapon Elk
14- Book Cliffs Deer Season Choice
15- Northeast Turkey (2)

SLC April 25th (TBD)
1- San Juan Elk Hunters Choice (LO)
2- Paunsaugunt Deer Hunter Choice (LO)
3- Oquirrh/Stansbury Cougar

Price April 26th
1- Book Cliffs Little Creek Elk Any Weapon (Roadless)
2- Book Cliffs Bitter Creek South Creek Elk Any Weapon
3- Book Cliffs South Antelope Any Weapon
5- Nine Mile Anthro Premium Elk
6- Nine Mile Anthro Antelope
7- Plateau Antelope Any Weapon
8- Paunsaugunt Deer Hunter Choice (LO)

Tooele May 2nd (TBD)
1- Paunsaugunt Any Weapon Elk
2- West Desert Vernon Deer Any Weapon
3- Paunsaugunt Deer Hunter Choice (LO)
4- Southwest Desert Antelope Any Weapon

Heber/Kamas May 10th (TBD)
1- South Slope Diamond Mountain Elk Any Weapon
2- Wasatch Mountain Elk Any Weapon
3- Paunsaugunt Deer Hunter Choice (LO)
4- South Slope Diamond Mountain Deer Season Choice

Central Mountains Nebo Premium Bull Elk Permit 2/2/2013 5:00:00 PM MT Nebo / Nephi
Wasatch Mountains Premium Bull Elk Permit 2/23/2013 5:00:00 PM Provo Chapter
West Desert Snake Valley Pronghorn Permit 2/23/2013 5:00:00 PM Provo Chapter
Central Turkey Permit 2/23/2013 5:00:00 PM Provo Chapter
Wasatch (Whole Unit) Antlerless Elk Permit 2/23/2013 5:00:00 PM Provo Chapter
Plateau, Fish Lake, Thousand Lake any Weapon Bull Elk Permit 3/9/2013 5:00:00 PM Richfield Chapter
Plateau, Boulder, Kairparowitz Any Weapon Bull Elk Permit 3/9/2013 5:00:00 PM Richfield Chapter
Manti Antlerless Elk Permit 3/9/2013 5:00:00 PM Richfield Chapter
Wasatch Mountains Muzzleloader Bull Elk Permit 3/16/2013 5:00:00 PM Park City
West Desert Riverbed Pronghorn Permit 3/16/2013 5:00:00 PM Park City
Wasatch (whole unit) Antlerless Elk Permit 3/16/2013 5:00:00 PM Park City
Central Mountains Manti Any Weapon Bull Elk Permit 3/23/2013 5:00:00 PM Manti-Richfield Chapter
Pangquitch Lake Any Weapon Bull Elk Permit 3/23/2013 5:00:00 PM St George Chapter
Book Cliffs, Bitter Creek South Any Weapon Bull Elk Permit 3/30/2013 5:00:00 PM Vernal Chapter
Northeast Turkey 3/30/2013 5:00:00 PM Vernal Chapter
West Desert Veron (Season Choice) Deer Permit 4/6/2013 5:00:00 PM Tooele Chapter
West Desert Rush Valley Pronghorn Permit 4/6/2013 5:00:00 PM Tooele Chapter
Cache South Any Weapon Bull Elk Permit 4/13/2013 5:00:00 PM Logan Chapter
Cache Antlerless Elk Permit 4/13/2013 5:00:00 PM Logan Chapter
Statewide Rocky Mountain Bighorn (SOLD) 4/20/2013 5:00:00 PM Salt Lake Chapter
Nine Mile Rocky Mountain Bighorn (SOLD) 4/20/2013 5:00:00 PM Salt Lake Chapter
Panguitch Lake Premium Bull Elk Permit 4/20/2013 5:00:00 PM Cedar City Chapter
Book Cliffs, Bitter Creek South Any Weapon Bull Elk Permit 5/18/2013 5:00:00 PM Moab Chapter
La Sal Antlerless Elk Permit 5/18/2013 5:00:00 PM Moab Chapter
Manti Antlerless Elk Permit 2/2/2013 5:00:00 PM MT Nebo / Nephi

Mule Deer Foundation
2013 Utah Conservation Permits
Convention, SLC
February 21-24, 2013
Species
Unit
Condition
Banquet
Deer
Henry Mountains
Season Choice
Convention
Deer
Antelope Island
Convention
Deer
Statewide
Statewide
Convention
Rocky Mtn. Bighorn
Antelope Island
Convention
Elk
Plateau, Boulder/Kaparowits
Premium
Convention
Rocky Mountain Goat
Statewide
Convention
Elk
Southwest Desert
Premium
Convention
Rocky Mtn. Goat
Beaver (Early)
Early
Convention
Bear
South Slope, Yellowstone
Convention
Turkey
Northeast
Convention
Cougar
Statewide
Convention
Bear River
Saturday, February 16, 13
Species
Unit
Condition
Banquet
Elk
Cache, North
Premium
Bear River
Elk
Cache, South
Premium
Bear River
Antlerless Elk
Cache
Bear River
Elk
Cache, Meadowville
Premium
Bear River
Pronghorn
Cache, N. Rich
Any-weapon
Bear River
San Pete
Friday, March 1, 13
Species
Unit
Condition
Banquet
Elk
Central Mtns., Manti
Premium
San Pete
Elk
Central Mtns., Manti
Archery
San Pete
Elk
Central Mtns., Manti
Muzzleloader
San Pete
Cougar
Wasatch-Manti
San Pete
Antlerless Elk
Manti
San Pete
Mule Deer Foundation
2013 Utah Conservation Permits
Utah County
Saturday, March 2, 13
Species
Unit
Condition
Banquet
Deer
Paunsaugunt
Archery
Utah County
Deer
San Juan, Elk Ridge
Season Choice
Utah County
Elk
Central Mtns., Nebo
Muzzleloader
Utah County
Elk
Central Mtns., Nebo
Archery
Utah County
Turkey
Central
Utah County
Weber/Davis
Saturday, March 9, 13
Species
Unit
Condition
Banquet
Deer
Paunsaugunt
Season Choice
Weber/Davis
Elk
Cache, South
Any-Weapon
Weber Davis
Elk
Fillmore, Pahvant
Any-Weapon
Weber/Davis
Elk
San Juan
Archery
Weber/Davis
Pronghorn
Cache, North Rich
Any-Weapon
Weber/Davis
Rocky Mtn Goat
Ogden, Willard (Billy) Early
Weber/Davis
Rocky Mtn Goat
Ogden, Willard (Nanny)
Weber/Davis
Antlerless Elk
Cache
Weber/Davis
Cougar
Cache
Weber/Davis
Salt Lake County
Saturday, March 23, 13
Species
Unit
Condition
Banquet
Elk
Beaver
Premium
Salt Lake
Elk
Central Mountains, Manti
Any-Weapon
Salt Lake
Elk
Mt. Dutton
Any-Weapon
Salt Lake
Elk
Plateau, Fish Lake, Thousand Lake
Premium
Salt Lake
Deer
Paunaugunt
Season Choice
Salt Lake
Rocky Mtn Goat
Ogden, Willard (Female)
Any-weapon
Salt Lake
Cougar
Wasatch-Manti
Salt Lake
Bear
Wasatch Mtns., West
Salt Lake
Mule Deer Foundation
2013 Utah Conservation Permits
Richfield
Friday, April 5, 13
Species
Unit
Condition
Banquet
Deer
Paunsaugunt
Muzzleloader
Richfield
Elk
Monroe
Any-weapon
Richfield
Elk
Fillmore, Pahvant
Archery
Richfield
Elk
Mt. Dutton
Any-weapon
Richfield
Antlerless Elk
La Sal
Richfield
Pronghorn
San Rafael, North
Any-weapon
Richfield
San Jose, CA
Saturday, April 13, 13
Species
Unit
Condition
Banquet
Elk
Fillmore, Pahvant
Any-weapon
San Jose
Deer
Paunsaugunt
Muzzleloader
San Jose
Cedar City
Saturday, April 13, 13
Species
Unit
Condition
Banquet
Deer
La Sal, Dolores
Season Choice
Cedar City
Elk
Southwest Desert
Any-weapon
Cedar City
Elk
Mt. Dutton
Archery
Cedar City
Antlerless Elk
La Sal
Cedar City
Cougar
San Juan
Cedar City
St. George
Saturday, April 20, 13
Species
Unit
Condition
Banquet
Elk
S.W. Desert
Archery
St. George
Pronghorn
San Rafael, North
Any-Weapon
St. George
Mule Deer Foundation
2013 Utah Conservation Permits
Uintah Basin
Saturday, April 27, 13
Species
Unit
Condition
Banquet
Deer
Book Cliffs
Season Choice
Uintah Basin
Deer
Book Cliffs
Muzzleloader
Uintah Basin
Elk
Book Cliffs, Bitter Creek - South
Premium
Uintah Basin
Elk
South Slope, Diamond Mountain
Any-weapon
Uintah Basin
Antlerless Elk
South Slope
Uintah Basin
Antlerless Elk
South Slope
Uintah Basin
Antlerless Elk
South Slope
Uintah Basin
Pronghorn
Book Cliffs, Bitter Creek
Any-weapon
Uintah Basin
Bear
S. Slope, Vernal/Diamond/Bonanza
Uintah Basin
Bear
Book Cliffs, Bitter Creek, South
Uintah Basin
Box Elder
Friday, May 3, 13
Species
Unit
Condition
Banquet
Deer
S. Slope, Diamond Mtn.
Muzzleloader
Box Elder
Elk
Cache, North
Any-Weapon
Box Elder
Elk
Cache, South
Muzzleloader
Box Elder
Elk
Cache, North
Archery
Box Elder
Pronghorn
Cache, North Rich
Any-weapon
Box Elder
Tooele County
Saturday, May 11, 13
Species
Unit
Condition
Banquet
Deer
West Desert, Vernon
Archery
To o e l e
Deer
West Desert, Vernon
Muzzleloader
To o e l e
Deer
West Desert, Vernon
Any-weapon
To o e l e
Elk
Oquirrh-Stansbury
Premium
To o e l e
Elk
Plateau, Fish Lake, Thousand Lake
Muzzleloader
To o e l e
Cougar
Oquirrh-Stansbury
To o e l e
 
my popcorn is just finishing and think I will even get a beer for this one. Its been a few days since a something controversial has come up here... LOL


My opinion, that is WAY too many tags...

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"


Let me guess, you drive a 1 ton with oak trees for smoke stacks, 12" lift kit and 40" tires to pull a single place lawn mower trailer?
 
So?

You're sayin My 18 GAWD-DAMNED Elk Points Ain't worth the Paper they're wrote on?












I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
 
>
>So?
>
>You're sayin My 18 GAWD-DAMNED Elk
>Points Ain't worth the Paper
>they're wrote on?



***And I thought I'd come on this thread and read you saying JUDAS!!! Boy was I wrong. 18PPs ought to get you a real nice Piscutter though, LOL!!!
 
So im seeing that there is a ant island deer at the expo and another under mdf, so is there 2 this year being auctioned off?


Skull Designs: Quality European Mounts at affordable prices
 
I have been vocal in that past and do support the sell of some of these tags. I have also been vocal in that fact that I believe they give too many.

However, if you are going to put out a list and clearly state at the begining that all of these tags are being taken out of the LE draw then only list the tags that are actually taken out of the draw. I believe all of the tags that say LO are actually Landowner tags and are not take out of the LE tags. Like I stated before I believe the number is a little high on these tags. Dont inflate the list by adding in the LO tags.
 
I feel everybody's pain however there is a truck load of coin that these tags bring that does benefit all of us sportsman. (I'm no dummy I know there's plenty of that coin that doesn't) Everybody cries when they hear of another tag going up for auction but damn it there is good that comes from it. Also, you better believe I'll be bidding too!

"I'll see you all this coming fall in the Big Rock Candy Mountains!"

 
The list that you copied from SFW's website are for this coming year (2014) but RMEF and Mule Deer that you copied are the tags from this year (2013) not the upcoming year. Hopefully they will not get as many :)

WW0801
 
I just pulled the lists off each web page.

Other States seem to be managing their game herds just fine without 500+ "conservation permits"
 
Put every last tag on eBay and let the Kings enjoy the pursuit of big game. Okay, keep back one tag for the peons. Get on board. And buy your chance for a bull elephant on Antelope Island where is best to wear full safari gear and stare into the camera with a slight frown to show how much dang fun it is to pop a penned animal.
 
The only time that pear shaped loser Douchstate opens his piehole to spew his mindless drivel is in post about SFW or auction tags, yet he claims to not be a member or supporter. Weird.

Douchstate, isn't there some gay TexASS bait, high fence deer forum you can go play on where, other like minded D-bags like yourself might actually care what you have to say? And if there is, let me know about it because I'd like to check it out. Thanks in advance.
 
Not surprising and actually I think there's room for more tag allocations. Taking a few more tags from the LE units would do more good than keeping them in the regular draw. Only get a few bucks from a regular LE tag drawing where they could at least get 10 times that amount during the shows. Good for Utah!! cough cough...

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway."
 
If that's the list of tags up for auction, that's a freakin pile no matter how you look at it. Not ONE sweet ath northern general deer either. What a croc.
 
I still think the absolute best thing these guys could do is get the state to give them ALL the tags in the absolute worst zone in the entire state. Now they can do whatever they want with those tags. Sell as many as they want or flush as many as they want. At the same time %100 of any moneys raised by those tags can only be spent in that specific zone for conservation projects. I bet in ten years they would be killing deer like the Henry's and yall would all be tittybaby crying for those tags. If in ten years the zone still sucks then yall get all the satisfaction that little kids get by watching other people fail. You can't lose.
 
No, in ten years $fw would put out an URGENT membership drive for that unit "needing to save the mule deer". And trollstate will come on here to tell us how valuable $fw is to the hunters of the state. Just look at the facts, Doyles clients have "donated" so much to conservation of elk, even he doesn't think the money is worth it for the sportsmans tag. If all that coin Denny pumped into elk in utah was so valuable, wouldn't there be more elk "worth" the sportsmans tag? $fw has created so much valuable "conservation" that we have 50,000 less deer now than when they started. What has happened is there has been an explosion of "conservation tags" to support wildlife. Of course we lost about 150,000 hunters since $fw started helping, along with the roughly $5million they paid in licenses, meaning the state "needs" to sell "conservation" tags. Perhaps we can get rid of another 20k hunters, then we will "need" even more "saving" from $fw and their ilk. We have all benefited so much from the conservation and expo welfare, we better double down on even more. Only in Utah does something fail miserably, become despised by the majority, and screw everyone, yet it is continued and increased year after year.



>I still think the absolute best
>thing these guys could do
>is get the state to
>give them ALL the tags
>in the absolute worst zone
>in the entire state.
>Now they can do whatever
>they want with those tags.
> Sell as many as
>they want or flush as
>many as they want.
>At the same time %100
>of any moneys raised by
>those tags can only be
>spent in that specific zone
>for conservation projects. I
>bet in ten years they
>would be killing deer like
>the Henry's and yall would
>all be tittybaby crying for
>those tags. If in
>ten years the zone still
>sucks then yall get all
>the satisfaction that little kids
>get by watching other people
>fail. You can't lose.
>


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-22-13 AT 03:37PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-22-13 AT 03:34?PM (MST)

hoss,
Lost 150,000 hunters since SFW? You guys are always screaming about facts and numbers. The truth is most of the hunters had dropped before SFW every came along. Why? Because we lost most of our deer herd. Without losing the deer the SFW would have had a VERY VERY hard time getting started. The SFW is not responsible for lost hunting oppurtunity they are a result of the resource being lost to begin with.

That is fine to not support the SFW or the Auction tags but to constantly blame the SFW for lost oppurtunity is just not factual. The loss of resource is what caused a drop in oppurtunity not some organization. Take SFW away this very second. Put things back they way they were and guess what. The state is not any better. The hunting is not any better and the wildlife is not more plentiful. Take all those tags back and put them in the draw and tell me how much it helps. Tell me how it gives "150,000" more hunters an oppurtunity. Its hunters using them now, they just pay a helluva lot more for the tags than the state would get from the draw system. So in reality they do not add in even one single hunter into the system if they draw for them rather than sell them. Those tags are available to anyone to purchase, ANYONE!!! They cause ZERO lost oppurtunity.

It would be great if Utah still had 800,000 plus deer. They dont!!! We only have 250,000-300,000 to me the drop in hunters matches the loss in deer. Has nothing to do with any organization or any Auction tags. Money is what builds habitat and helps with solutions. Auction tags create more money. Without adding too much pressure on a struggling and declining resource. It really is pretty simple if you just remove the personal hate or dislike for certain organizations and individuals.

Thats my kool aid rant served with a side of reality. So continue to blast away and scream for transparency while arguing with half truths and misconceptions.
 
hossblur,

Well said!

"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 
If it puts a smile on even one outfitters face, it will all be worth it.
4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
Nobody has ever answered the question of how other western states manage their wildlife without taking hundreds of premium tags out of the draw to sell to the highest bidder? Utah has more conservation permits than all other western states combined yet our hunting is average at best. I, personally, do not think that the average sportsman has seen any significant return on this investment. Is hunting in Utah significantly better than hunting in Wyoming, Arizona, Nevada, Idaho, etc.? We like to talk about the millions of acres that have been rehabilitated but it doesn't seem to be helping out deer herds.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
Holy smokes that's a bunch of tags. I had no idea there was that many. I sure hope that stuff never hits arizona, our herds couldn't handle that kind of give away even for one year. Now i understand why all the utah dudes are so pissed off all the time. I don't know how anyone could agree that all those tags taken out could be justified for any reason. Please keep whoever thought out this scam out of arizona.
 
Hawkeye,
How are other states funded? Are their Wildlife Agencies funded the same as Utah? Are they as dependent as Utah on tag sales or do they get more money out is the general fund than Utah? How do they keep the license costs overall lower than Utah? Lets compare the entire picture and not just one small aspect.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-22-13 AT 07:15PM (MST)[p]Coues,
Guess where the AZ statewide deer tag is auctioned off at. For mule deer and coues. Not all the Utah guys are pissed. Your only seeing a small group of upset individuals that squak on the forums, come on up to Utah for the expo and you'll see how many are actually ok with it. Come up and attend a few banquets. I'll take you for a drive and show you the projects those dollars pay for and then you can make a decision based on more than a few of us Internet clowns fighting. Am serious come on up for the weekend. You'd have a ball. I'll even pay for your ticket to get in.
 
M73,

Maybe you're right about the original intentions of SFW, but somewhere along the way you guys got enamored with exclusive hunts and high fee tags - that is where your treasure and your heart is now. It seems you concluded the general hunt is the foremost problem with the deer population. You stacked the board and the racs and turned the state into le. If you cared about general hunting the discussion would have been overwhelmingly does and fawns - the population generating engine. Instead the discussion was overwhelmingly about tag #'s, dates, and boundary size. General hunters kill less than 15% of the herd. That should be easy to replenish, but you focus on general hunting restrictions like a lazer.

I thank you for the habitat improvement you have done. I understand your preference for mature deer. I resent the ineffective restrictions you have fought for.

Get rid of option 2, focus on does and fawns, and I'll join SFW.
 
Smelly,
Option 2 allows as much focus on does and fawns in each unit as it does for bucks.. My support for option 2 was always to give more individualized focus on each herd and what will help that herd grow. More deer means more opportunity for every one.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Nov-22-13
>AT 07:15?PM (MST)
>
>Coues,
>Guess where the AZ statewide deer
>tag is auctioned off at.
> For mule deer and
>coues. Not all
>the Utah guys are pissed.
> Your only seeing a
>small group of upset individuals
>that squak on the forums,
>come on up to Utah
>for the expo and you'll
>see how many are actually
>ok with it. Come
>up and attend a few
>banquets. I'll take you
>for a drive and show
>you the projects those dollars
>pay for and then you
>can make a decision based
>on more than a few
>of us Internet clowns fighting.
> Am serious come
>on up for the weekend.
> You'd have a ball.
> I'll even pay for
>your ticket to get in.
>
Muley-73, i should give a disclaimer first that i don't have the first clue what the money is used for. I, like most have a very small window of understanding to look thru when it comes to where the funds are allocated. I would love to come up there , and see some of the projects, and get a tour so i'm more informed. I must say though that it was like sticker shock when i read the list. I'm fine with arizona's current allocation of auction tags, but our list has to be less than a fifth of yours. i think that we are all on a slippery slope or at least in the grey area when a list of tags for sale is that long. I'm not the least bit jealous of the guys that buy these tags, heck it gives me something to aspire too, and i too had the money to spend 20,000 on a tag at one time. We in az had to face the issue of having a bunch more auction tags added to our system last year, and the backlash was uniform and massive from most hunters here. What i don't understand is how did the herds across the west do so well on their own without all these tags being available up until recently? why all of a sudden is there such a huge need to sell so many tags to do so many projects? What were we doing as hunters better just 15 years ago , and what are we doing diff now to cause the need for so many new tags to have to be sold? Remember i'm just an average guy who spends at least a 120 days in the field a year. I guess i just don't understand, and i'm ok with that, and i'm not trying to argue with anyone that's for sure!!!
 
Cody-

Most sportsmen have no clue that the UDWR has taken 500+ tags out of the public draw in the name of conservation. When they see the actual list they generally react just like the posters on this forum--with shock. I would support auctioning off a very limited number of conservation/governor's permits like most western states do but I think the UDWR has gone way overboard. Our hunting in Utah may only be average, but hey, we have some of the most impressive habitat projects in the west. Instead of hunting next year perhaps we should all sign up for the "three hour habitat tour" instead.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
>M73,
>
>Maybe you're right about the original
>intentions of SFW, but somewhere
>along the way you guys
>got enamored with exclusive hunts
>and high fee tags -
>that is where your treasure
>and your heart is now.
> It seems you concluded
>the general hunt is the
>foremost problem with the deer
>population. You stacked the
>board and the racs and
>turned the state into le.
> If you cared about
>general hunting the discussion would
>have been overwhelmingly does and
>fawns - the population generating
>engine. Instead the discussion
>was overwhelmingly about tag #'s,
>dates, and boundary size. General
>hunters kill less than 15%
>of the herd. That
>should be easy to replenish,
>but you focus on general
>hunting restrictions like a lazer.
>
>
>I thank you for the habitat
>improvement you have done. I
>understand your preference for mature
>deer. I resent the
>ineffective restrictions you have fought
>for.
>
>Get rid of option 2, focus
>on does and fawns, and
>I'll join SFW.

AMEN!!! HALLELUJAH!!!!!

+1000


"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 
Cody,

Why must people remind you that option duce had NOTHING to do with biology? Its to manage hunters, not deer.



"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 
Hawkeye,
Like I stated before. I do believe that the total # of tags is more than I personally would like to see. I also pointed out that not every tag on the list is taken out of the draw.

I have had a deer tag and an elk in the state of Utah literally every single year since I was 15 years old. I'm not a life time license holder. I don't buy landowner or auction tags. Yet I seem to be able to hunt every single year. There is plenty is opportunity out there, if you are willing to pay attention. And if you'd like to look at projects then lets do it. I'll bet I have a tag in my pocket when we good look.
 
So we both agree that there are too many conservation permits. I like it when we agree on something. We also both had the privilege of archery hunting elk on LE units this year. Another similarity. While we frequently disagree on issues, I always enjoy the discussion and I appreciate your passion. I am signing off so that I can get up in the a.m. to chase muleys on the extended. That is another example of opportunity that you speak of. But it does not change the fact that many if us are concerned with direction we are heading in with regard to commercial tags.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
The saddest part about this is my kids REALLY like to hunt! at this rate, i wont be able to afford to get them a tag in Utah in the years to come. Its no longer a family tradition, its a money game. Very sad!
 
Couesmagnet,

You aren't kidding about the how that many auction tags would hose Arizona. Some rogues tried to introduce the Utah expo disease to Arizona last year but the Arizona hunters put the smackdown on them. A proposal to premium price certain types of tags in Arizona was proposed earlier this year and Arizona hunters didn't like that one either.

The engine driving the Utah mess is the commercialization of wildlife and how to use public assets to further the interests of hunting related businesses in the SHORT term. The people perpetrating this shell game could care less about LONG term conservation, they are trying to rake it in before the general public realizes what they are really up to and pulls away their welfare fund.

The groups brokering these tags are non-profits, they derive tax protections from that. The people buying the tags through the auctions are making "donations" and also derive tax benefits from that. Even businesses that buy blocks of "sportsman" raffle tags and donate them back can write that off as a donation (and the raffle group can hand the tickets away to drum up business for things like booth rentals and things that the public derives no benefit from). Sweet deal, the public provides the free tags and allows the bidders to write off the tag on their taxes. Sure wish I could do that on my draw tag.

I think conservation is simply a buzzword that allows these entities to exist, there is a presumption that non-profits are giving more to the public than they are taking from them. When you consider all the overhead from deferred tax revenue, lost public hunt opportunity and all the broker transaction costs, you would think that the dollars directed to conservation would be carefully used. Instead, these groups use the money for coyote bounty programs and deer transplants. Both of which are great for marketing but hard to measure from a benefit standpoint. This is by design in my opinion. Some of these groups aren't even groups at all, they are essentially a website with an automated email spammer directed at politicians, they collect data about members and use that data for lobbying.

The hunters in Utah have been beat down little by little every year. They have been conditioned to accept premium pricing, excessive auction and raffle tags and a ludicrous landowner tag split. The most equitable currency to acquire tags is TIME, all of these little side games are created to reduce the TIME for some at the expense of added TIME for others. The general public understands the monetary cost of tags but they have no idea of the value of the TIME cost that is paid by the hunting majority when new "programs" are added to allow a small minority to buy their way to the front of the line.

Here is my prescription for making Utah a better place for MOST hunters...I realize most are easier said than done.

- FIRE the Directors and Wildlife Commissioners that have not protected your interests up to this point

- SIMPLIFY the draw process. Keep species prices the same (raise prices marginally if necessary) and make people pay the difference in TIME. Consolidate all points into a single system. Realize also that "once in a lifetime" tags aren't really that when there are a list of tags that are immune from that in the raffles and auction. Maybe just maybe, this was done on purpose to boost the value of the expo tags.

- REDUCE the number of expo tags. These should be a sliver not a slice. Auction and raffle tags that sell beneath a specific SPECIES dollar threshold should be removed. Jumping ahead of others in line SHOULD be costly and the privilege should be paid with lots of MONEY or LUCK. Five figures minimum.

- DITCH the landowner tags. These tags LOOK like they are providing hunt opportunity but the reality is that they are providing it to the same people every year. Landowners keeping 85-90% of the tags and providing the public draw hunters less favorable hunting terms is a total joke.

- STOP buying products from the companies that provide major sponsorship support to these groups and expos. A while back HOYT provided a venue to announce the coyote bounty program. When the 300 tag expo bill was introduced in Arizona, PSE archery made public comments against it. Guess which one is getting my business. Most expos provide a list of vendors before or after the event, makes it easy to know who to avoid.

- STOP buying sportsman or "raffle" tags taken from the public draw pool. Someone may win this year but everyone loses next year when this is viewed as public acceptance of a questionable program and more draw tags are taken from the public.

-REGULATE game cameras. The propagation of game cameras has made collecting "product" information very easy, a 24 hour a day operation. There is little doubt that knowing where the best horns are located leads to more economical marketing and more pressure to put tags into the hands of the guys willing to pay outfitters with access to the location data.

Keep it simple. Most other states do. There are some great conservation groups but the ones brokering the lions share of these tags are more about growing profits than habitat in my opinion. When you ask them to prove they provided measurable value they say "prove we didn't". That isn't a standard worthy of continuing to keep them on the public dole.

Ryan
 
We can focus on does and fawns without option 2.

I'm not interested in a plan that allows "just as much" focus on does as it does for bucks. We need a plan that can figure out why the does can't replenish a 15% harvest. We need to focus "way more" on does than on bucks.

I haven't given up on you. You're still stuck on enormous antlers and hunter restrictions on the general hunt. It will come with enough prayer and persistence.

Get rid of option 2, shift your focus to antlerless, and I'll join SFW. I'll join for 2 years if you relinquish control of the trophy tags.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-22-13 AT 11:30PM (MST)[p]>Hawkeye,
>How are other states funded?
>Are their Wildlife Agencies funded
>the same as Utah?
>Are they as dependent as
>Utah on tag sales or
>do they get more money
>out is the general fund
>than Utah? How do
>they keep the license costs
>overall lower than Utah?
>Lets compare the entire picture
>and not just one small
>aspect.


colorado only receives money from license sales and lottery contributions.
My opinion, CO's deer herd is light years ahead of UT's...and there isn't hundreds of tags being auctioned off.


Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"


Let me guess, you drive a 1 ton with oak trees for smoke stacks, 12" lift kit and 40" tires to pull a single place lawn mower trailer?
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-13 AT 00:23AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-13 AT 00:21?AM (MST)

Now I'm willing to bet (ironically) that other states will start to sell Auction permits a few years before Utah gets a lottery. Now that's just a guess, but I am willing to bet on it! LMAO!!!!

Mntman,
I'd love it if that's how Utah funded the DWR! And you're absolutely correct that they are light years ahead of Utah. Hell we barely started managing by unit 2 years ago. CO and AZ and many others have been doing this for years. That's my whole point!!!!! Utah needs to manage like those states and without secondary state funding like the Lottery they have to come up with dollars..... Thus enters the conversation tags.
 
Makes you wonder if they cut those auction tags in half, if that wouldn't drive the price up on those tags that are available. It would probably accomplish the same goal. Seems like it's getting a little watered down. The guys that throw all the money at them can still do it. They will just have to throw a little more. Hmmmm..
 
First of all would any of yall like to do the math on what percent of all the big game tags offered in Utah these auction tags account for. I think that would bring yall back down to earth a little bit on how silly all of yall's "shock" really is.


Second Javihammer,

Do you have any education in Wildlife, agriculture, or agronomics? If you do I am completely amazed you would post that un-American commy garbage that you just posted. All your ideas would lead to an almost immediate decimation of wildlife within the USA.
 
Couse,
Your first assessment it spot on. You saw first hand how SFW Arizona tried to pull a sneaky backdoor tag grab in your state. Fortunately for you guys the word got out at the last minute and those slimballs were exposed for what they are and you guys got it shut down. Now you know what kind of sneaky BS the guys in Utah have been dealing with for the last 20 years with this organization.

I like how M73 keeps saying it's just a few internet squawkers who oppose these SFW welfare tags, yet even fewer internet squawkers support them.
 
Hey yall look, the ignorant pear shaped hick/wildlife biologist/farmer/taxidermist/SFW supporter/TexASSen/historian/patriot/high fence shooter/lawyer and condescending know it all has graced us with his wisdom. Yall are so lucky. Yall really need to listen to yall what this TexASSen has to say to yall because he knows what's best for yall and yalls western states.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-13 AT 09:47AM (MST)[p]I take it shotgun is too scared to answer the question? Have you graduated high school yet shotgun?

By the way, I can stand by and let you call me pear shaped but the fact that you would stoop so low and call me a lwayer is beyond shameful. :D
 
>First of all would any of
>yall like to do the
>math on what percent of
>all the big game tags
>offered in Utah these auction
>tags account for. I
>think that would bring yall
>back down to earth a
>little bit on how silly
>all of yall's "shock" really
>is.
>
>
>Second Javihammer,
>
>Do you have any education in
>Wildlife, agriculture, or agronomics?
>If you do I am
>completely amazed you would post
>that un-American commy garbage that
>you just posted. All
>your ideas would lead to
>an almost immediate decimation of
>wildlife within the USA.

I don't know the first thing about wildlife biology , but i don't think it takes much education to pick which one is better for wildlife. arizona's model auction of 2 tags for each species and 1 tag raflled for each species, period. That's 3 tags total per species. How many tags go to each species in utah, heck i had to stop counting half way down the list. Which is better 3 tags per species or an uncoutable number in utah. Which is actually better for the species, or which is better for the dollar. Again i don't claim to have formal education in wildlife biology but if you guys in utah have to sell that many tags each year, then i would just copy arizona's model exactly cause we obviously must be doing something better than utah. Heck we don't even have landowner tags in az, and we seem to be doing just fine over here with the biggest mule deer in the world, biggest elk in the world, biggest antelope , biggest sheep, and did i forget any other species. What is utah doing wrong that arizona is doing right, now thaT'S a question for all the utah guys should answer, especially the one's with the wildlife degrees. Our model is without a doubt superior or if it's not then we in az need to start selling some tags quick so we can maintain having the best of everything in every species.
 
"I don't know the first thing about wildlife biology , but i don't think it takes much education to pick which one is better for wildlife. arizona's model auction of 2 tags for each species and 1 tag raflled for each species, period. That's 3 tags total per species."

Determining who gets to kill the beast has nothing to do with wildlife biology or conservation. It is a simple argument that if not careful will devolve into a fight to kill the last beast which is where we are headed, even in Arizona.

" How many tags go to each species in utah, heck i had to stop counting half way down the list. Which is better 3 tags per species or an uncoutable number in utah."

That is a personal question and decision and has no change on the path of wildlife management.

" Which is actually better for the species, or which is better for the dollar."

Right now it is not what is best for the species or "the dollar".

"Again i don't claim to have formal education in wildlife biology but if you guys in utah have to sell that many tags each year, then i would just copy arizona's model exactly cause we obviously must be doing something better than utah."

You may be doing some things better than Utah but the idea to copy another's wildlife management over an expanse that vast and between populations is irresponsible and dangerous for the species.

"Heck we don't even have landowner tags in az, and we seem to be doing just fine over here with the biggest mule deer in the world, biggest elk in the world, biggest antelope , biggest sheep, and did i forget any other species."

So you believe success in hunting is about the size of horns apparently???? For the rest of us its a little more complicated than that.

"What is utah doing wrong that arizona is doing right, now thaT'S a question for all the utah guys should answer, especially the one's with the wildlife degrees. Our model is without a doubt superior or if it's not then we in az need to start selling some tags quick so we can maintain having the best of everything in every species."

Is it getting easier for you to get a deer tag? Is it easier for you to get a tag than when your father was a hunter? These are the questions YOU should be thinking about right now no matter what western state you are living in.
 
Tristate, with all due respect i make my comments, and that's why i gave so many disclaimers about myself. I know it's harder these days to get good tags compared to my father and grandpa(god bless his wonderful soul), but that's just a function of population increase in general isn't it? Heck my gramps used to get 2 tags for the kaibab back in the day. When i mention size of animals by saying arizona has the best in every species, wouldn't that also indicate that our herds in general must be doing better than most in order to sustane animals of that age class and inherently ones that get really big antler wise. There's nothing wrong with copying another states game plan when that state is simply doing the best, antler wise and age class wise? All these indicators seem to tell me that az is doing fine if not the best. As for tag availability, i've had 5 archery elk tags in az since 2007, and harvested 3 bulls over 370 to 390 on public land. My family always has a handful of deer tags each year, each in some really good units for coues deer. On these general tags we draw each year we also kill top end class bucks over 110 on a consistent basis. Just my experience, but not only do i have more than my fair share of tags each year , but the quality is second to none to boot. Tons of tags and tons of chances to kill good bucks and bulls. Again, with all due respect what is utah doing wrong?
 
Banquets sell out. The Expo stays packed. The dinners sold out at the expo. No need to squawk on the Internet. I'm just a clown so I jump on and join in for entertainment. Watching the reaction to Tristates reality checks is worth the read alone.
 
Tristate,

Most of the ideas I presented aren't brand new, they align with how my home state of Arizona has been doing things for a long time. Arizona has pretty good quality and is far from decimated.

Time is a cost. Only those looking to intentionally deceive or lack a basic understanding of economics try to understate the value of it. Certainly some money is needed for conservation but putting 99% of the focus on raising the dollars and 1% on how those dollars are actually used is wrong. My point is that Utah has too many expo tags, if they reduced them significantly in number those tags might produce dollar values that are worth the cost in extra TIME paid by public hunters. Reduce the supply and the price per tag will go up, basic economics. Wildlife management isn't some big pawn shop where departments are forced to hand over tags and take the best offer they can get every year. Utah hunters shouldn't stand for this.

Also, my issue with premium pricing stems from multiple things. First, premium pricing allow tags to be sorted into buckets. When tags are sorted this way they are much easier to divert into things like auctions and raffles. The anti-NAWM crowd isn't interested in average quality tags, they want the tags that take 20 years to draw since those tags generate more auction dollars. Giving them a special name and bucket helps facilitate the shell game and the common response is "these are a small fraction" of all tags. In reality they are a large portion of the very best taga. As I said before, throw all tags into the drawing and if a guy wants a super premium tag he can wait 20 years or buy one of a couple multi-six figure auction tags or win one of a couple raffle tags.

The landowner tag program in Utah is nuts and is the poster child for how not to do things in other states. It is so weak in fact that the guys running it don't even attempt to defend it in most cases. They just admit it needs work and keep slurping up the gravy.

I must admit I have disdain for game cameras. I do not like how they are now available with cellular transmission technology. I don't like the way they scar and litter trees on public wildlife waters and I think they should be limited, guides should not be able to canvas an area of public land with hundreds of cameras like they currently do. Capturing data has now become cheaper and this fuels the commercialization of hunting engine.

As for your commie comment, whatever dude. Hunters should vote with their dollars, if a company chooses to mingle with groups that undermine their family traditions, hunters have an obligation to stop supporting that company until they get their priorities straight.

Ryan
 
"Tristate, with all due respect i make my comments, and that's why i gave so many disclaimers about myself. I know it's harder these days to get good tags compared to my father and grandpa(god bless his wonderful soul), but that's just a function of population increase in general isn't it?"

No. There are many factors and population is only one.

" Heck my gramps used to get 2 tags for the kaibab back in the day. When i mention size of animals by saying arizona has the best in every species, wouldn't that also indicate that our herds in general must be doing better than most in order to sustane animals of that age class and inherently ones that get really big antler wise."

Horn and antler size have very little to do with herd health and sustainable harvest models. The fact that your indicator is less and less randomly selected by individuals and technology which the scientists have no control over whatsoever means it is the last thing you would want skewing your statistics.

"There's nothing wrong with copying another states game plan when that state is simply doing the best, antler wise and age class wise? All these indicators seem to tell me that az is doing fine if not the best. "

Copying harvest plans is highly dangerous. Do not kid yourself. Arguing over who gets to shoot the harvest objective doesn't change the "game plan" anyway from state to state.

"As for tag availability, i've had 5 archery elk tags in az since 2007, and harvested 3 bulls over 370 to 390 on public land. My family always has a handful of deer tags each year, each in some really good units for coues deer. On these general tags we draw each year we also kill top end class bucks over 110 on a consistent basis. Just my experience, but not only do i have more than my fair share of tags each year , but the quality is second to none to boot. Tons of tags and tons of chances to kill good bucks and bulls. Again, with all due respect what is utah doing wrong? "


The same thing that all of the states are doing wrong. Some more than others. Quit looking at your own wonderful glass bubble and start analyzing whether it will be as good a generation or even two generations beyond you. Wright now Utah is feeling it more than you but it will hit you soon enough.
 
"As for your commie comment, whatever dude. Hunters should vote with their dollars, if a company chooses to mingle with groups that undermine their family traditions, hunters have an obligation to stop supporting that company until they get their priorities straight. "


THEN LET IT HAPPEN! If that's what you believe then live by it. If the sportsmen don't want convention or conservation tags then they will quit buying them. If sportsmen don't want trail cameras then they will quit buying them. If sportsmen don't want a landowner tag then they won't buy them. I don't care if you don't want to buy something. I care when you start this high and mighty garbage of what we all need to do and the state needs to do to make sure they fall into line with YOUR version of hunting.
 
>"Tristate, with all due respect i
>make my comments, and that's
>why i gave so many
>disclaimers about myself. I know
>it's harder these days to
>get good tags compared to
>my father and grandpa(god bless
>his wonderful soul), but that's
>just a function of population
>increase in general isn't it?"
>
>
>No. There are many factors
>and population is only one.
>
>
>" Heck my gramps used to
>get 2 tags for the
>kaibab back in the day.
>When i mention size of
>animals by saying arizona has
>the best in every species,
>wouldn't that also indicate that
>our herds in general must
>be doing better than most
>in order to sustane animals
>of that age class and
>inherently ones that get really
>big antler wise."
>
>Horn and antler size have very
>little to do with herd
>health and sustainable harvest models.
> The fact that your
>indicator is less and less
>randomly selected by individuals and
>technology which the scientists have
>no control over whatsoever means
>it is the last thing
>you would want skewing your
>statistics.
>
> "There's nothing wrong with copying
>another states game plan when
>that state is simply doing
>the best, antler wise and
>age class wise? All these
>indicators seem to tell me
>that az is doing fine
>if not the best. "
>
>
>Copying harvest plans is highly dangerous.
> Do not kid yourself.
> Arguing over who gets
>to shoot the harvest objective
>doesn't change the "game plan"
>anyway from state to state.
>
>
>"As for tag availability, i've had
>5 archery elk tags in
>az since 2007, and harvested
>3 bulls over 370 to
>390 on public land. My
>family always has a handful
>of deer tags each year,
>each in some really good
>units for coues deer. On
>these general tags we draw
>each year we also kill
>top end class bucks over
>110 on a consistent basis.
>Just my experience, but not
>only do i have more
>than my fair share of
>tags each year , but
>the quality is second to
>none to boot. Tons of
>tags and tons of chances
>to kill good bucks and
>bulls. Again, with all due
>respect what is utah doing
>wrong? "
>
>
>The same thing that all of
>the states are doing wrong.
> Some more than others.
> Quit looking at your
>own wonderful glass bubble and
>start analyzing whether it will
>be as good a generation
>or even two generations beyond
>you. Wright now Utah
>is feeling it more than
>you but it will hit
>you soon enough.

I'm going to keep looking at this beautiful glass bubble we have in az for ever bud. Az has had the same tag allocations in most units for as long as i can remember, and some how it seems to keep working, i guess it's just luck according to the educated one's. The day we get a list of tags for sale as long as yours , that will be the true test if your mile long list is the way to go. It's funny that you call it a bubble when that dandy bubble we look at here in az always stays the same size and always works really really well. As for the uncharted waters utah is wading in now with regards to selling off their herds to the highest bidder, well i would say that's the def. of a true bubble about to burst. Bubbles by def are something that keeps expanding till it explodes. Actually the bubble is in utah, as for az our bubble hasn't changed in 20 years. Who's bubble is getting bigger tristate yours in utah or ours in az? You asked me a question about tag availability, and i know you don't like my answer as to az having plenty of opps for hunters each year, but it's true. Keep blowing up your true bubble in utah till it explodes with tags for sale 2 miles long, but we in az are going to keep ours consistant and uniform without having to unload hundreds of tags to the highest bidder.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-13 AT 12:53PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-13 AT 12:45?PM (MST)

Tristate, please define how arizona has a bubble at all being created. Tag allocations have been the same for years and years here, and guess what the quality seems to be getting better. How about utah's tag allocations in general, and throw in the mile long list of new tags being sold, that's a bubble. This is simple 3rd grade math 1 + 1 equals 2. In utah 1 + 1 + another mile long list equals a bubble. If selling a mile long list of tags is the ingredient for successs, then why hasn't az had the need to sell a bunch of tags. You guys from utah tried to push thru the big give away last year , and we shot it down in flames. i guess we in az are screwed now cause we weren't going to participate in your utah bubble. Only time will tell if we in az made a huge mistake for not following your utah lead with repect to the tag blow out sale, but my guess is that by not falling into the money trap you guys did, we in az will have giants still running around in every unit with several satallite bulls that would be huge by utah's standards. please leave or very consitant bubble in az alone while we watch your true bubble implode over there in utah. Az doesnt want to change something that is working and has worked so well for 30 plus years. I hope your right tristate, and az will be a perfect test of my theory, by us aying hell no to the big give away you guys bought into. We will see who actually had everything right. And by the way what would make az's bubble explode tristate, give me a reason why our so called bubble would explode. Just 1 reason will be good enough for me, and your reason i'm asking for can't be to sell a bunch more tags, cause that hasnt been tested over time yet. Notice arizona's not having to sell tags to be a much better state quality wise, guess we better learn something from utah's true bubble!!!
 
You are not paying attention Coues. You think I am talking about states being in some form of dynamic populace or economic bubble and I am not saying anything of the sort. What I am trying to state is that YOU individually are living in a protective bubble. Kind of like living inside of a snow globe. Inside the bubble you believe what you want and you are impervious to the outside elements, ideas, and risks.

To give you an example many years ago there was a television show where they took a bunch of unemployed college age kids and put them all in a penthouse of a luxurious hotel. They didn't have to worry about paying for anything or looking into the future. They were simply incouraged to have a lot of sex with each other, spend a lot of time in the hot tub together, and be sure and fight with each other a bunch. The show was call "The Real World". Obviously these people were living within a bubble. Obviously you are living within a bubble right now.

More specifically you are a member of the Eloi tribe.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-13 AT 01:08PM (MST)[p]>You are not paying attention Coues.
> You think I am
>talking about states being in
>some form of dynamic populace
>or economic bubble and I
>am not saying anything of
>the sort. What I
>am trying to state is
>that YOU individually are living
>in a protective bubble.
>Kind of like living inside
>of a snow globe.
>Inside the bubble you believe
>what you want and you
>are impervious to the outside
>elements, ideas, and risks.
>
>To give you an example many
>years ago there was a
>television show where they took
>a bunch of unemployed college
>age kids and put them
>all in a penthouse of
>a luxurious hotel. They
>didn't have to worry about
>paying for anything or looking
>into the future. They
>were simply incouraged to have
>a lot of sex with
>each other, spend a lot
>of time in the hot
>tub together, and be sure
>and fight with each other
>a bunch. The show
>was call "The Real World".
> Obviously these people were
>living within a bubble.
>Obviously you are living within
>a bubble right now.
>
>More specifically you are a member
>of the Eloi tribe.
No tristate, i'm a member of the reality check tribe. Please explain in depth how we in az are living in a bubble. Your little explanation about the real world is crazy. Why would we change anything over here when it's the finest example of a healthy herd from top to bottom , and it's been tested for years and tears. Please explain what we in az should be doing better, so we can have herds like utah does. How is the finest example of tag allocations in the west a bubble. Your education has tainted your thinking bud when your trying to argue with something that's working better than anything you've got an example for? Please leave the bubble we have here in az alone that's been the same and is working much better than your untested tag give away bubble. When utah has a herd like arizona's then i will listen very closely to your untested arguments. Its like comparing a bmw to a hopped up gremlin. Your saying the gremlin's better i disagree. The protective bubble you mentioned is exactly that, it's protected from tag give aways!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-13 AT 01:24PM (MST)[p]As for the real world example tristate, utah is very similar to the show. Encourage a few people to sell a bunch of tags so that there's a bunch of money flying around that shouldn't be in the first place. Encourage more and more tags for sale so everyone gets punch drunk with expendable money and walla we got ourselves a real sitiuation on our hands. Mean while here in az we just sit around behaving ourselves and watching the punch drunk utah guys shooting ebery big animal on special tags. 1 trip to our forest will change your mind tristate, but it will be confusing for a second for you when you see how few tags we have to sell in order to be that much better than utah. My last post, tristate the bubble i'm talking about is a hunting bubble, and has nothing to do with economics.
 
Coues,
No doubt that AZ has some great hunting. How long have you had micro units and how long have you restricted the # of permits per unit. Utah has screamed to keep opportunity first while other states restricted tag sales. As I stated to start with Utahs loss of their deer herd is what triggered all of this. Had Utah better managed their herds and followed the model of AZ, CO, NM, NV and managed their herds with quality and quantity in mind rather than opportunity above all else I really don't think we would see this situation. The same crowd that hates these tags and organizations in all truth enabled them to come about by pushing to over pressure the resource. Now we are stuck trying to figure out a way to grow more deer. Which is expensive and takes a long time with lots of effort. The tags help with that. The money goes back to the DWR with that purpose in mind. If you remove the tags an place them back in the general draw you lose the money that the DWR needs to function. Utah is not funded the same way as AZ or CO. If they were you would have more options. But the fact that they are not makes it impossible to compare the two when talking about funds needed to pay the Wildlife Agencies. You state that you have had multiple elk tags and a deer tag almost every year? Well you Utah you can still buy and an elk tag over the counter every single year, rifle, archery or muzzleloader. There are deer tags available after the draw in Utah every single year. These tags don't really take opportunity to hunt away.

It's funny I get accused about only caring about quality or trophy animals. Yet it's actually the "opportunity" crowd that screams and cries about these tags. Like I stated earlier, if you want to just hunt in Utah you can, easier than you can in most western states. It's the trophy hunting tags that people are complaining about on this post.
 
Muley 73, i get it bud. Less than 30 percent of our state has habitat that could even support elk, so of course we have less elk numbers than utah. If az had the amount of elk country utah has i would suspect that those elk would still attain age class and numbers like the rest of our units. You guys have more hunter opps than we have no doubt but that's simply a function of having more elk habitat. You couldn't spend enough money to rehab the desert here to hold elk. I'm just comparing elk habitat to elk habitat in each state and what has to be done to ensure not only huge animals but hunter opps as well. Some how our elk habitat doesn't need the sale of a crazy amount of tags to sustain not only hunter opps but the best quality in the world. We have across the counter tags here also , that you can hunt every year, but there are very very few elk in these areas. Also muley 73 you made a great point as to how long we in az have been micro managing our units and herds in general. I think this has been the single most important factor we in az have done to maintain a congruent mix of trophy animals in our individual units. I hope everyone else is right and i'm wrong but when a state like utah has to sell that many tags, then in my opinion there is something fundamentally wrong with something being done there. Utah has far more elk habitat maybe twice as much, so what's the problem over there. Sorry if i offended anyone as that wasn't my point in the first place!!
 
Coues,
No offense taken at all. You are commenting off the info you've gathered from the Internet. I wish Utahs issues were that simple. The truth really is Utah has tons of opportunity and the auction tags really don't have that big of an impact. The guys the complain here have issue with the groups that sell the tags more than they have issue with the actual tags being sold. Most is of that is based on personal issues and disagreements.

As a side note. Coues deer are starting to steal my mule deer passion the past few years! Hoping to draw a AZ tag in the next couple years or I may even head down in Jan to chase them with my bow.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-13 AT 02:58PM (MST)[p]>Coues,
>No offense taken at all.
>You are commenting off the
>info you've gathered from the
>Internet. I wish Utahs
>issues were that simple.
>The truth really is Utah
>has tons of opportunity and
>the auction tags really don't
>have that big of an
>impact. The guys the
>complain here have issue with
>the groups that sell the
>tags more than they have
>issue with the actual tags
>being sold. Most
>is of that is based
>on personal issues and disagreements.
>
>
>As a side note. Coues
>deer are starting to steal
>my mule deer passion the
>past few years! Hoping
>to draw a AZ tag
>in the next couple years
>or I may even head
>down in Jan to chase
>them with my bow.
Let me know if you need any pointers , i would be glad to help on the coues deer thing. They sure are a real challenge.
Pointers on where to hunt that is.
 
>Makes you wonder if they cut
>those auction tags in half,
>if that wouldn't drive the
>price up on those tags
>that are available. It would
>probably accomplish the same goal.
>Seems like it's getting a
>little watered down. The guys
>that throw all the money
>at them can still do
>it. They will just have
>to throw a little more.
>Hmmmm..

you are correct. I would be willing to bet if they cut the tags in half, the price would basically double if not more. Cause there would be more guys competing for fewer tags.



Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"


Let me guess, you drive a 1 ton with oak trees for smoke stacks, 12" lift kit and 40" tires to pull a single place lawn mower trailer?
 
Coues, you need to go back and read. You brought up Arizona, not me. I have never once said UDWR had the correct management plan, so don't accuse me of doing so. You didn't understand a simple metaphor and I don't expect you to understand wildlife conservation. Like many of the posters here you type before you think. Wildlife conservation is not measured by inches of antlers on a wall. If it was you should be saying pen deer breeders are the greatest wildlife managers of all. If you would actually do some research you would see I am stating that the entire wildlife model of North America is failing. Some areas are failing faster than others but trust me as it stands now all of it is failing.


Now would you like to be the first person on this thread and answer my question of what percentage these auctioned tags comprise of the total big game tags in the state?
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-13 AT 05:06PM (MST)[p]>Coues, you need to go back
>and read. You brought
>up Arizona, not me.
>I have never once said
>UDWR had the correct management
>plan, so don't accuse me
>of doing so. You
>didn't understand a simple metaphor
>and I don't expect you
>to understand wildlife conservation.
>Like many of the posters
>here you type before you
>think. Wildlife conservation is
>not measured by inches of
>antlers on a wall.
>If it was you should
>be saying pen deer breeders
>are the greatest wildlife managers
>of all. If you
>would actually do some research
>you would see I am
>stating that the entire wildlife
>model of North America is
>failing. Some areas are
>failing faster than others but
>trust me as it stands
>now all of it is
>failing.
>
>
>Now would you like to be
>the first person on this
>thread and answer my question
>of what percentage these auctioned
>tags comprise of the total
>big game tags in the
>state?


Tristate, I respect everything you have said and your obvious knowledge of wildlife biology and its issues. I def don't have the level of understanding that you have and never will. How ever I spend as much time in the field as most wildlife biologist due and I make my own observations accordingly. I just don't understand why there has to be so many tags that supposedly have to be sold as of recent. When the whole thing made it to Arizona most hunters here were asking then selves how is this going to make our great state if az any better and we couldn't figure out one reason it would. I know I'm the one that brought up Arizona but maybe Utah could see how far out of line the whole tag thing has become. New Mexico is another fine example of good management without having to sell a bunch of tags but their landowner tags are starting to become high numbered also. All I'm trying to say is that Utah and every other state for that matter should caution themselves as to how many tags are sold to generate money. I wish I had the understanding that some in here have in regards to why there has to be so many sold but how did we get away with just 15 years ago selling far fewer and what has really changed between now and then. All I see is more hands grabbing for more money. I also think that most organizations are in it for the right reasons but lost track of how to accomplish the goal. We can't spend our way out of every problem contrary to what Obama has tought us all. Go back to the basics in my opinion, and start managing instead if spending. I would like to thank all members of all out wildlife groups including the ones in Utah, but as if late I think several have lost track and control of the whole deal. Money tends to do this to us all and it doesn't matter what it is , it tends to steer the whole thing after awhile.
 
I guess you don't want to answer the question.


How can you say something is "too many" when you don't even know the percent of the big games tags that these tags comprise? That just isn't logical.

You seem to think I am only arguing for more money and that is not the case. Does wildlife need to generate more income? You better believe it. Will more money solve the issues facing wildlife? Only if we restructure the entire wildlife model and combine those monies with a sound plan.
 
My answer on percentage is too many. This is how the slippery slope starts. It seems ok to give away a very small number, and then after a while another small increase will be justified. It won't look like much either but then another very small increase. That's why the list I'm just guessing had doubled in the last 15 years I would be willing to bet. I'm not saying tris ate that your in it for the money at all but I do think the amount of importance your placing on money solving the issues is skittle exaggerated. That's we're we differ and that's ok isn't it? To answer your question about percentage and I'm guessing I'm going with less than 1 percent. I would bet in az it's less than .005 percent. We need to look at how certain states do it with 10 percent of the number certain other state have to sell on the side. It's about efficiency I guess or does Utah face more problems than az or New Mexico. Maybe it does, slippery slope though when the number keeps creeping up slowly but surely.
 
Well now we can start getting somewhere. Once people start getting honest with everyone and answering questions progress can be made.

So please answer this now. How does a consumptive management decision that effects less than %1 of the wildlife tags be blamed for a complete conservation management failure by an entire DWR that has been sliding for three decades?

To me it's like you are staring at a totaled car and you are complaining that the coke stain on the seat is the straw breaking the Carmel's back.
 
Tristate. Your not changing my mind at all about the subject though. You never answered my question though and I've asked 2 that I wish you would answer, please do. First why didn't we need all these tags 15 years ago, and why do we need all this money now when we didn't before.? Second why does Utah have longest list of tags by far and away, and what diff issues is Utah facing that the rest of us aren't in the west? Thanks you for the spirited discussion tristate
 
>Tristate. Your not changing my mind
>at all about the subject
>though. You never answered my
>question though and I've asked
>2 that I wish you
>would answer, please do. First
>why didn't we need all
>these tags 15 years ago,
>and why do we need
>all this money now when
>we didn't before.?

Maybe you did need these tags fifteen years ago and nobody would do it then and now it's too little too late. None the less you are starting to show my point for me. Do you think the dynamics of your dear herds and their management are the same as they were thirty years ago? How about five years ago? If you think state budgets for wildlife management should be the same year after year you are out of touch. I guarantee the state wildlife budget for Arizona was not the same fifteen years ago as it is now.

Second why
>does Utah have longest list
>of tags by far and
>away, and what diff issues
>is Utah facing that the
>rest of us aren't in
>the west? Thanks you for
>the spirited discussion tristate


They believe it is the best way for the state's wildlife to increase in value.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-13 AT 07:32PM (MST)[p]Then the corresponding increases needed to offset increases for budget expensesshould have been adjusted using tag price increases for all not extra opps for the few. Remember I'm for a certain amount of tag sales but mile long lists I'm not. In my opinion az is managed very similar to the way it was 5 years ago or even 10 years ago. I haven't seen anything diff in the regs as far as tag increases or season dates since I started putting in 25 years ago. I can't speak for Utah though on changes but I can for Arizona. In my opinion tag prices for residents should go up across the west. If people want to contribute and not have all these supposedly needed extra tags then add 30 percent to tag fees across the board except non residents. Non residents have already been milked enough and with the waits it takes to get a tag in another state after 10 years applying they have 3000 plus dollars in the deal. I know people think that an increase for residents isn't fair but it might amount to a half tank of gas or less price wise. If that amount of increase weeds people out then they probably shouldn't be hunting in the first place. Then the common man doesn't loose tags so to speak that supposedly need to be sold instead. It would offset a lot of the funds that somehow Utah seems to need more than other states. Tristate you never answer my question about why Utah needs more tags to sell than everyone else combined. They feel like its necessary isn't an answer. Why are Utah extra needy so to speak. Another one while in at it. If you guys would have been successful here in az in implementing your tag sale model what could that have possibly done for our state. You guys must have thought thru the reasoning first before coming to az with Utahans way of doing things. Give me 1 reason it would have benefited our wildlife, cause we don't need any help here. What was the real reason for coming to az?
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-13 AT 07:56PM (MST)[p]See now you are abandoning logic and using emotion again. There is no "mile long list". You even admitted it is less than %1 of the big game tags in the state. As for why Utah did it they believe that monetizing the resource will increase the value of the actual resource. This is a conservation fundamental that is working all over the world right now. I know that means you have to look outside your Arizona bubble but you might want to look at it.

As for whether you need help with your wildlife answer your own question in another twenty years when you are competing with your kids for a tag.


By the way go back and read my posts on this thread. I say give these guys who believe in this type of game management total control of the worst deer zone in the state and see where it is in ten years. If nothing comes of it y'all can have the old outdated useless wildlife model but if it is better the get ready to go with the flow. Why be scared if your idea is right. You can settle the argument.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-13 AT 08:13PM (MST)[p]There's no emotion involved here tri. i'm guessing it's less than 1 percent, but what was that percentage 5 or 10 years ago, and why does the percentage keep creeping up and up and up. If getting emotional about an increase that after time could be quite substancial with even very slight increases per year, then i guess i am. Also when we look back in history or forward in time i think you and every one else would agree it's almost always better to model a future plan for wildlife or a business deal after a gold seal program like arizona, and looking outside the best plan for success is usually a recipe for disaster. Why are you trying so hard to look past succesful programs like arizona , colorado, new mexico, that don't have to sell anywhere near the amount of tags utah sells? I can only think of one reason, but i don't want to make any accusations specific to anyone. Why search for alternative and unproven ways to fix utah's problems, just look next door for some hints proven over years and years. we're right next door tri.I will agree to disagree though!!! Good luck tri on your hunts the rest of the year, and thanks for the debate. P.S i'm already competing with my little brother for tags. He gets one and then i get one the next year and half the time we go hunting together. You can't fight application increases and the corresponding population growth thru selling any amount of tags. Same amount of elk and deer, but more people every year applying.
 
Couesmagnet, just for the record. Tristate is a taxidermist in Texas. He claims to be unaffiliated with expo dependent conservation groups but loves to debate in favor of them. His MO is to intercept unflattering threads about them and kill them by overposting his circular ?I never said that? unsupported garbage. I generally avoid commenting on his posts but he lured me out with the ?these tags are less than 1%? trash. That was the same fundamentally dishonest claim the people that were trying to sell this expo garbage to Arizona made, it still irks me. It doesn't matter what percentage of tags are funneled into the expo or what kind of degrees you have. A third grader can look at that list of tags and tell that is a whole lot of tags. Tristate would have better odds of mounting a frozen turkey from the grocery store than floating that argument outside of Texas.

Muley73 said..

?Utah is not funded the same way as AZ or CO. If they were you would have more options. But the fact that they are not makes it impossible to compare the two when talking about funds needed to pay the Wildlife Agencies.?

Please explain??doesn't Utah sell game tags and collect Pittman Robertson dollars based on the number of hunting licenses sold? How is Utah different other than the entitlement programs they have hamstrung themselves with? Honest question.

Tristate replied to one of my earlier posts with this?

?I don't care if you don't want to buy something. I care when you start this high and mighty garbage of what we all need to do and the state needs to do to make sure they fall into line with YOUR version of hunting.?

And then within hours directs the following comments to couesmagnet?.

?Coues, you need to go back and read. You brought up Arizona, not me. I have never once said UDWR had the correct management plan, so don't accuse me of doing so. You didn't understand a simple metaphor and I don't expect you to understand wildlife conservation?

So I am high and mighty huh? Condescension is a great way to win friends and influence people in the LONESTAR state I guess. In my opinion couesmagnet has been right on point with his questions, whether he is a PHD or a GED is really irrelevant.

The one thing I think we all agree with is that public draw hunters are not very engaged in the process. Few understand the details about how tags are distributed in these side markets (CWMU/Governor/Sportsman/Lifetime license guarantees/dedicated hunter hours for purchase). The devil is in the details and the Utah DWR is constantly adding more details which generally benefit a small minority at the peril of the greater majority. I enjoy helping to shine a spotlight on this crap, it is wrong and bad for the future of hunting.

And one more thing couesmagnet. Arizona isn't totally in the clear from expo threats or similar Utah-like junk. We have a game commission that is nominated by a committee/panel of some ex-game commissioners. These people present a short list of commission nominees to the Arizona governor. At least one of nomination panel members (maybe more) is very money/business focused in his line of questioning to the applicants. The interview transcripts are public record if you are looking for a good laugh. Make no illusions that there are an organized group of commercial interests that will propose cracks in the door legislation for landowner tags, premium pricing and additional allocation for raffle and auction tags. This threat to our children?s and grandchildren?s future opportunity is going to be a constant battle with the commercial interest lobbyists.

Ryan
 
>Coues,
>No offense taken at all.
>You are commenting off the
>info you've gathered from the
>Internet. I wish Utahs
>issues were that simple.
>The truth really is Utah
>has tons of opportunity and
>the auction tags really don't
>have that big of an
>impact. The guys the
>complain here have issue with
>the groups that sell the
>tags more than they have
>issue with the actual tags
>being sold. Most
>is of that is based
>on personal issues and disagreements.


Bull%$#@! on the "information on the internet" line. Cody, where are you getting your information? Your talking points are right out of the newsletters from sfw and bgf. Sometimes, close enough to be plagiarism. Utah sportsmen that complain ANYWHERE about the tags wouldn't complain if we knew the money was spent properly and accounted for as a public trust and not a cash cow. Further, those tags should be exactly reflective of the public draw. If we take, say 13,000 hunters out of the field, a reduction of the same percent should be taken out of the expo tags too. Not conservation tags (they are capped almost to satisfaction) but convention tags. Finally, when you're boneheaded leaders at sfw decide to stop presenting a big fake check as a "donation" and begin to call that money what it really is "conservation tag money", then I'll join sfw, wear their hat all around town and to bed, and will never post a single ounce of truth about them ever again.

It would be nice to do a roll call on those who oppose sfw and especially bgf, but even I get tired of the same song if its played over and over gain.

"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-13 AT 09:15PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-13 AT 09:15?PM (MST)

Less than 1% of the total big game tags is nothing to be concerned about?

That's like a home owners insurance company telling a coin collector that since only 2 items of his collection of 200 coins were stolen, they can only give him 1% of the amount insured, even though the 2 coins were a 1933 eagle and a 1913 Liberty head nickel which were 98% of the collection's value.

Or an airline company giving you 10% of the insured value of your luggage because only 10% of your luggage by weight was lost, even though the lost piece of luggage contained a valuable piece of jewelry, which was worth 60% of the amount insured. (This happened to me once.)

Less than 1%? Yes, for deer and elk if you don't seperate the Limited Entry and Premium Limited Entry permits from the general season permits, but not for any other big game species.

2012 Convention (Expo) and Conservation (auction) permits:
Buck Pronghorn - 4.3% (Not counting CWMU nor Landowners)
Bull Moose - 10.3%
Bison - 11.6%
Desert Bighorn - 16.0%
RM Bighorn - 18.6%
RM Goat - 6.2%

And FWIW:
LE Deer - 4.3%
Prem LE Deer - 7.2%
LE Elk - 5.2%
Prem LE Elk - 27.3%

The top half of a bucket of raw milk is worth much more than the bottom half.

Edited: My figures included the Sportmen's public draw tags.
 
Klbzdad,
I will forward your list of demands to the SFW leadership. Would you like them to contact you directly or have them report back to me and I can let you know on how they decide. This may take some time and days of debate regarding changing these things to gain your personal membership. I'm sure there will be more than one sleepless night regarding this decision. If they do change these things and you join up I'll buy a SFW hat in each color. In fact if you'd like you could just have mine.
 
Jav,
Yes Utah does get money from license sells however those others states receive money (lots of money) from the general state fund, or lottery, ect, ect. Utah does not. That is where the auction tags come in and provide those extra needed dollars. Yes we could just sell more tags but we are talking about a resource that has gone from 800,000 + to under 300,000 in our deer herds. So we have lost nearly 2/3 of our resource. Issuing more tags to make more money is really in my opinion irresponsible. Like I have stated before. I feel we have taken a few too many tags but overall the system works.
 
M73,
Which western states fish and game agencies gets money from the lottery and general fund???????? Please try not to answer with your usual I don't know or I have no idea.

Couse,
how does it feel to be talked down upon by some condescending know it all a$$ from TexASS????? I like how he tells you about your emotions. LMAO!

Second why
>does Utah have longest list
>of tags by far and
>away, and what diff issues
>is Utah facing that the
>rest of us aren't in
>the west? Thanks you for
>the spirited discussion tristate


"They believe it is the best way for the state's wildlife to increase in value."

He is spot on about that though. SFW and the state of Utah is all about the $$$$$$.
 
What i have never seen is a complete recap of what all these tags sold for individually last year and in previous years. Is that information posted anywhere? I am sure most on here would be highly interested in seeing what the price tags were. We hear about the Antelope Island and a few other high dollar tags but what does the Fishlake any weapon tag historically go for as well as all the others. Is there someone out there that can post that information? It should be recapped by the State and posted on there website every year in an effort to be transparent with the hunting public. I would bet you have to dig pretty hard to find out what they sell for. Should that be the case?
 
Shotgun 1, i'm ok with being told what i'm feeling cause in the long run all of us on this site are passionate and care about what's going on with our wildlife. So in a way every post we all make including tristates or anyone else's has a certain amount of emotion injected whether we like it or not. What i don't like though is anyone being attacked for their level of education. I would put the amount of education that i've received both in college and in my doctorate program up against 98 percent of the people's on here, but i don't throw it in anyone's face, nor do i think i'm a lick better than a guy that has less. Actually i think i'm pretty stupid for paying for as much as i did for all of mine. I've met a lot of educated people who have zero street smarts, and i would take the street smarts side of the education every day of the week. i just hope there aren't guys on here that think that because they didn't get some fancy education, that any input they would have would some how be less educational than the rest. I would caution anyone from discounting in any way shape or form someone's opinion based on their level of education. Education has very little to do with succeeding these days, it's way more about who you know now, not what you know.
 
Is it true that most if not all of these tags are taken from the non-resident pool of tags? Utah uses the smoke and mirror method of claiming they are still available to non-residents (as long as they attend the expo)?

Is this why the majority of Utah hunters have bought into this garbage?
 
>Klbzdad,
>I will forward your list of
>demands to the SFW leadership.
> Would you like them
>to contact you directly or
>have them report back to
>me and I can let
>you know on how they
>decide.

Would you be a trooper and handle the little details for me? Thanks pal.

>This may take
>some time and days of
>debate regarding changing these things
>to gain your personal membership.
> I'm sure there will
>be more than one sleepless
>night regarding this decision.

I know how valiant the "committee" works on details of things without emotion or $$$ in mind. I will still pay the membership dues myself so they need not worry about the $$$.

>If they do change these
>things and you join up
>I'll buy a SFW
>hat in each color.
>In fact if you'd like
>you could just have mine.

Great! Only I have a personal rule of never wearing someone else's asshat. I have my own that I accidentally take out of the closet from time to time. Getting you to actually respond with substantive content to anything forces me to wear one. However, I can retire that asshat because I don't expect to hear that any of my "demands" will come to fruition anytime soon. At least, I heard that from a cousin who might be related to a brother of a friend who lives in some country (I haven't researched the name of the country, but its a country alright) that another guy and his wife who is, might be, or might not be, but probably is related to the same guy who might have said something similar in 1971 to a cousin who's name starts with an "A" but ends with a "P" basically stating the obvious despite the population of the earth being 800,000,000 billion but now its like 6 billion based on some numbers I found in a biology textbook that had been married to a math textbook under "facts of fiction" section of the library. See what I did there? You're welcome.


"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 
Man I take one day off and this turns into the silliest thread on here. Apparently many of you do not understand mathematics.

First I love the crazy comparison of %1 of a stolen coin collection being %98 of the collections value? The minute you put those deer tags back in the public draw THEY LOOSE ALL THEIR VALUE! They only get sold for what a regular tag costs and your crazy emotional "value" won't change that.


Then I love how it has been determined I am condescending???? When I bring up education and careers here I am trying to let you know I am a professional. The vast majority of posters here are not professionals within the wildlife industry. But yet they want to argue the subject with someone that has been trained and practiced within this industry for 21 years. I don't argue with you about the restaurant business. I don't argue with you about American literature. I don't argue with medical professionals.

Last I run into this quote from Coues.

"Shotgun 1, i'm ok with being told what i'm feeling cause in the long run all of us on this site are passionate and care about what's going on with our wildlife."


This is what is wrong here. Everyone else is worried about "feelings". I am trying to introduce logic to people who can't expel "feelings" from an issue and do what's best for wildlife. They can't stop worrying about "feelings" and start thinking about principals of game management and funding those principals. They use words like "too many" but don't even know what percent that is. They talk about "value" but don't realize how much something actually costs. I understand that there are lots of feelings tied up in this hobby. Most of us were brought into it as small children by our families. It is part of our identities. But if you think "feelings" are going to save one damn deer in this whole country you are wrong. Most of the time when things get this bad you have to do some of the most unimaginable things possible. Do you think I like having these arguments? Do you think I like having everything I have worked for belittled in front of the public eye of these forums? No! BUT I HATE THE FACT THAT MY KIDS WON'T KNOW MULE DEER HUNTING BECAUSE EVERYONE COULDN'T START USING THEIR BRAINS AND SET THEIR FEELINGS ASIDE!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-13 AT 08:41AM (MST)[p]Tri, now your the one getting all emotional. you can't expect everyone from other states to understand why utah is extra special needy with regards to having to sell more tags than the rest combined. It would be like coming to az , and gas costs 8 bucks a gallon, when every where else including utah it costs 4. You would ask the same questions as you were pumping gas into your tank. Then i would come up to you and explain saying if you don't pay 8 bucks we in az might not have any gas left in the future, and oh ya i promise it's for your own good that we charge 8 bucks for gas in az. Now there could be legitimate reasons utah has to sell more tags than everyone else, but how many are you going to need next year, or 10 years from now. I respect and thank you for your passion about the subject, maybe all your education has you understanding it all but very few others do. Again, what are the special needs utah has that the other states don't have, and your answer can't be wait it's coming to a theater near you (which is us). I guess only time will tell if the only state that has to have that many tags for sale to function properly or at least try compete in any way shape or form with the one's that don't have to sell even 20 percent that many had it all right. Your flagship model has a peculiar smell to it, we just don't recognize the smell over here, forgive us for that. There's also a huge problem with your last statement, when you talk about your kids future cause when their 45 years old the less than 1 percent mumbo jumbo will be incorrect when the number is 10 percent by then. I would worry about how much money your kids make in the future so they will be able to purchase one of these tags to go hunting.
 
"Tri, now your the one getting all emotional."

That was just honesty showing you that I do have emotions. BUT I LEAVE MY EMOTIONS OUT OF THE DEBATE!

" you can't expect everyone from other states to understand why utah is extra special needy with regards to having to sell more tags than the rest combined."

I never said that I did. You asked questions and I try to answer. If you don't understand that isn't my problem anymore.

" It would be like coming to az , and gas costs 8 bucks a gallon, when every where else including utah it costs 4. You would ask the same questions as you were pumping gas into your tank. Then i would come up to you and explain saying if you don't pay 8 bucks we in az might not have any gas left in the future, and oh ya i promise it's for your own good that we charge 8 bucks for gas in az."

What happened to all the stuff about voting with your dollars? If you don't like it go buy gas elsewhere. By the way we aren't talking about all the gas stations we are talking about a couple and you can still cross the street and just pay your four bucks.

"Now there could be legitimate reasons utah has to sell more tags than everyone else, but how many are you going to need next year, or 10 years from now."

A lot more probably.

" I respect and thank you for your passion about the subject, maybe all your education has you understanding it all but very few others do."

I can believe that.

"Again, what are the special needs utah has that the other states don't have, and your answer can't be wait it's coming to a theater near you (which is us)."

Different herds, different economy, different department budgeting, different landscape, different expectations, different government, different zoning, different public and private properties, all mean you have to approach your wildlife management In a different way.

"I guess only time will tell if the only state that has to have that many tags for sale to function properly or at least try compete in any way shape or form with the one's that don't have to sell even 20 percent that many had it all right. Your flagship model has a peculiar smell to it, we just don't recognize the smell over here, forgive us for that."

I am not upset that you don't recognize something. I get upset that you will not listen to the logic from a person who wants nothing more than to help you.

"There's also a huge problem with your last statement, when you talk about your kids future cause when their 45 years old the less than 1 percent mumbo jumbo will be incorrect when the number is 10 percent by then. I would worry about how much money your kids make in the future so they will be able to purchase one of these tags to go hunting."

I want %100 of those tags to be sold in a fashion that lets the state agencies profit the most from them. My kids aren't entitled to a chance at a deer draw, or any deer tag for that matter. If they can work hard and have the disposable income to go hunt that's great. If they don't have the income then they can take up bird watching. It is not my responsibility to be a steward of their wallets but I damn sure better make sure there are deer to hunt if they can afford it.
 
10-4 tri, thanks for the debate, and good luck in utah on the whole tag deal. I guess utah has one hell of a bunch of problems, that the rest of the states don't have. I can only hope that utah and all it's extra special problems can be fixed soon, how ever it needs to be done. Again tri thanks for your efforts and your passion, and i would guess all your time you've put in over the years. Maybe just maybe, you could look outside utah's current fix for the problem, at other states to see why they haven't needed to go to the level utah has had too. Not saying to copy us , but maybe get a few pointers your obviously over looking that we are doing diff. I've have 13 points in utah, and can't wait to hunt your state. Maybe we could share a couple of beers together after i shoot my big buck!!!! Muley 73 let me know when you want to come out to az for coues, every unit has several big bucks all the way across the entire state. Pm me when your ready to chase the little grey ghost muley 73.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-13 AT 09:57AM (MST)[p]>Man I take one day off
>and this turns into the
>silliest thread on here.
>Apparently many of you do
>not understand mathematics.
>
>First I love the crazy comparison
>of %1 of a stolen
>coin collection being %98 of
>the collections value? The
>minute you put those deer
>tags back in the public
>draw THEY LOOSE ALL THEIR
>VALUE! They only get
>sold for what a regular
>tag costs and your crazy
>emotional "value" won't change that.
>
>
>
>Then I love how it has
>been determined I am condescending????
> When I bring
>up education and careers here
>I am trying to let
>you know I am a
>professional. The vast majority
>of posters here are not
>professionals within the wildlife industry.
> But yet they want
>to argue the subject with
>someone that has been trained
>and practiced within this industry
>for 21 years. I
>don't argue with you about
>the restaurant business. I
>don't argue with you about
>American literature. I don't
>argue with medical professionals.
>
>Last I run into this quote
>from Coues.
>
>"Shotgun 1, i'm ok with being
>told what i'm feeling cause
>in the long run all
>of us on this site
>are passionate and care about
>what's going on with our
>wildlife."
>
>
>This is what is wrong here.
> Everyone else is worried
>about "feelings". I am
>trying to introduce logic to
>people who can't expel "feelings"
>from an issue and do
>what's best for wildlife.
>They can't stop worrying about
>"feelings" and start thinking about
>principals of game management and
>funding those principals. They
>use words like "too many"
>but don't even know what
>percent that is. They
>talk about "value" but don't
>realize how much something actually
>costs. I understand that there
>are lots of feelings tied
>up in this hobby.
>Most of us were brought
>into it as small children
>by our families. It
>is part of our identities.
> But if you think
>"feelings" are going to save
>one damn deer in this
>whole country you are wrong.
> Most of the time
>when things get this bad
>you have to do some
>of the most unimaginable things
>possible. Do you think
>I like having these arguments?
> Do you think I
>like having everything I have
>worked for belittled in front
>of the public eye of
>these forums? No!
>BUT I HATE THE FACT
>THAT MY KIDS WON'T KNOW
>MULE DEER HUNTING BECAUSE EVERYONE
>COULDN'T START USING THEIR BRAINS
>AND SET THEIR FEELINGS ASIDE!


So, it all boils down to the monetary value, the cold hard cash! And if we could just throw more money at them, the Utah deer herds would recover or, at least survive, so that you and your kids could come here and hunt them. I don't think you need to worry about your kids knowing mule deer hunting, 'cause don't you have mule deer in Texas that you could hunt? You don't need to come up here to do that. Or is it the Texas variety doesn't have antlers large enough to make you FEEL good about shooting them?

You're under the impression that increasing the costs of hunting is the ultimate answer to us pursuing our hobby. In fact, if the costs of pursuing that hobby goes beyond my priorities list price range, it doesn't matter how many deer there are or how many hunts are available, I'll put my time and money where I FEEL it needs to go. My emotional value priority far outweights your (or my) monetary value priority.

And, apparently, that's true of those who buy the high money hunt tags. They don't buy those tags primarily to benefit wildlife. If they were doing that, they would just donate the money. They buy them to FEEL GOOD about getting a world-class trophy. You're telling us to set aside our emotions and use logic, all the while hoping that your customers don't do that. I hope they don't either. It would be a sad day if they followed the advice you're giving us.
 
"So, it all boils down to the monetary value, the cold hard cash! And if we could just throw more money at them, the Utah deer herds would recover or, at least survive, so that you and your kids could come here and hunt them."

Its about value and the ability to maximize that and the deer herds can pay for their own conservation. If a deer is only worth ten cents then you would treat them like pennies laying in a parking lot. If they a worth ten thousand dollars they will be taken care of and more importantly people will do everything within their power to make more of them.

"I don't think you need to worry about your kids knowing mule deer hunting, 'cause don't you have mule deer in Texas that you could hunt? You don't need to come up here to do that. Or is it the Texas variety doesn't have antlers large enough to make you FEEL good about shooting them?"

My kids may like to hunt in Texas or they may want to hunt in Utah. Either way I don't think your inability to manage wildlife should decide that for them.

"You're under the impression that increasing the costs of hunting is the ultimate answer to us pursuing our hobby."

INCORRECT! Start reading what I am writing. I am saying increasing the monetary value of the herd is how you save hunting. As for the cost of hunting I could give a flip if it gets cheaper or more expensive.

" In fact, if the costs of pursuing that hobby goes beyond my priorities list price range, it doesn't matter how many deer there are or how many hunts are available, I'll put my time and money where I FEEL it needs to go. My emotional value priority far outweights your (or my) monetary value priority."

And now we are back to the problem with people's "feelings". YOUR SELFISH EMOTIONS DON'T OUTWEIGH THE WILDLIFE CONSERVATION!

"And, apparently, that's true of those who buy the high money hunt tags. They don't buy those tags primarily to benefit wildlife. If they were doing that, they would just donate the money. They buy them to FEEL GOOD about getting a world-class trophy. You're telling us to set aside our emotions and use logic, all the while hoping that your customers don't do that. I hope they don't either. It would be a sad day if they followed the advice you're giving us."

I DON'T CARE WHAT THEIR MOTIVATION IS FOR BUYING THE TAGS! For all I care they can be blind and think they are buying the most expensive porn on earth. They can be buying tags and using them as toilet paper. They can be anti-hunters buying the tags so that hunters won't kill the deer. I DON'T CARE ABOUT THEIR "FEELINGS". I care that the value of a deer tag is worth more than the artificially deflated price presented by the state to the crybabies he feel they deserve one.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-13 AT 12:37PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-13 AT 12:29?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-13 AT 11:03?AM (MST)

To see how far we've come in the last 20 years, let's compare the 1993 Conservation Permit list to the OP's 2013/14 list

Desert Bighorn - 1 with no minimum bid.
Rocky Mountain Bighorn - 1 with no minimum bid.
Bull Elk - 2 with a $5,000 minimum bid each.
Buck Deer - 2 with a $2,500 minimum bid each.
Bull Moose - 2 with a $5,000 minimum bid each.
Buck Pronghorn - 2 with a $1,250 minimum bid each.
Total= 10

The rules attached to the tags included:
(3) "All funds derived from the sale of conservation permits must be used for big game management, habitat enhancement or big game transplants as selected by the division."
(4) "Conservation organizations that auction permits must match the permit sales amount in dollars or in equivalent man hour value based on a rate of $15 per man hour. The division may require documentation of financial transactions or signed man hour time sheets to validate project costs born by the organization. No portion of the matching funds or man hours may be accredited to the organization's overhead, marketing of permits or any other organization use."

The DWR also had some sealed bid tags, each with a $5,000 minimum.
Buck Deer - 1
Bull Elk - 1
Bull Moose - 1
Bison - 1
Total= 4
All of this money went directly to the DWR.

There were also some Posted Hunting Unit (now CWMU) permits for sale to clientele.
Buck Deer - 420
Bull Elk - 188
Bull Moose - 29
Buck Pronghorn - 16
Antlerless Deer - 111
Antlerless Elk - 100
Antlerless Moose - 2
Either Sex Pronghorn - 32
Total= 898
None of this money went to the DWR

There were no Convention tags.
 
Couse,

You're missing something here. Your buddy Tri is NOT from Utah nor does he live in Utah. He is a TexASSen who lives in TexASS. Who would love to see ALL western big game tags sold to the highest bidder. Why that dork is so caught up in what happens in Utah is beyond me. I don't give a flying F@#* about a single thing in TexASS. So if you want to have a beer with him you'll have to go to TexASS to do it.

I like how that dork calls this the silliest thread on here, yet he'll have more post then anyone, I guess he's just showing us who's really the silliest.

So Douchstate, beside being some hack of a taxidermist, where do you work as a "professional" wildlife biologist for 21 years?
 
I didn't say I have been a professional wildlife biologist for 21 years. Go back and read. But as for being a biologist I have been one here in TexASS. Where else? :D


By the way I like watching you post this,

"I don't give a flying F@#* about a single thing in TexASS."

And then you start asking ME questions. You really don't have a very good grip on things do you.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-13 AT 01:17PM (MST)[p]>"So, it all boils down to
>the monetary value, the cold
>hard cash! And if we
>could just throw more money
>at them, the Utah deer
>herds would recover or, at
>least survive, so that you
>and your kids could come
>here and hunt them."
>
>Its about value and the ability
>to maximize that and the
>deer herds can pay for
>their own conservation. If
>a deer is only worth
>ten cents then you would
>treat them like pennies laying
>in a parking lot.
>If they a worth ten
>thousand dollars they will be
>taken care of and more
>importantly people will do everything
>within their power to make
>more of them.
>
> "I don't think you need
>to worry about your kids
>knowing mule deer hunting, 'cause
>don't you have mule deer
>in Texas that you could
>hunt? You don't need to
>come up here to do
>that. Or is it the
>Texas variety doesn't have antlers
>large enough to make you
>FEEL good about shooting them?"
>
>
>My kids may like to hunt
>in Texas or they may
>want to hunt in Utah.
> Either way I don't
>think your inability to manage
>wildlife should decide that for
>them.
>
>"You're under the impression that increasing
>the costs of hunting is
>the ultimate answer to us
>pursuing our hobby."
>
>INCORRECT! Start reading what I
>am writing. I am
>saying increasing the monetary value
>of the herd is how
>you save hunting. As
>for the cost of hunting
>I could give a flip
>if it gets cheaper or
>more expensive.
>
>" In fact, if the costs
>of pursuing that hobby goes
>beyond my priorities list price
>range, it doesn't matter how
>many deer there are or
>how many hunts are available,
>I'll put my time and
>money where I FEEL it
>needs to go. My emotional
>value priority far outweights your
>(or my) monetary value priority."
>
>
>And now we are back to
>the problem with people's "feelings".
> YOUR SELFISH EMOTIONS DON'T
>OUTWEIGH THE WILDLIFE CONSERVATION!
>
>"And, apparently, that's true of those
>who buy the high money
>hunt tags. They don't buy
>those tags primarily to benefit
>wildlife. If they were doing
>that, they would just donate
>the money. They buy them
>to FEEL GOOD about getting
>a world-class trophy. You're telling
>us to set aside our
>emotions and use logic, all
>the while hoping that your
>customers don't do that. I
>hope they don't either. It
>would be a sad day
>if they followed the advice
>you're giving us."
>
>I DON'T CARE WHAT THEIR MOTIVATION
>IS FOR BUYING THE TAGS!
> For all I care
>they can be blind and
>think they are buying the
>most expensive porn on earth.
> They can be buying
>tags and using them as
>toilet paper. They can
>be anti-hunters buying the tags
>so that hunters won't kill
>the deer. I DON'T
>CARE ABOUT THEIR "FEELINGS".
>I care that the value
>of a deer tag is
>worth more than the artificially
>deflated price presented by the
>state to the crybabies he
>feel they deserve one.

Like I said, it's ALL about the money! Other people's money!
 
"Like I said, it's ALL about the money!"

NO. ITS ALL ABOUT THE DEER! Trust me if the best management plan for deer was let yall kill three times as many and the state pays you to use the tags I would be all for it. It just so happens right now you actually have to pay money to hunt. Lawdy bajeebus. I know its hard to imagine that in a world where EVERYTHING costs money that your hobby would also.
 
"Then I love how it has been determined I am condescending???? When I bring up education and careers here I am trying to let you know I am a professional. The vast majority of posters here are not professionals within the wildlife industry. But yet they want to argue the subject with someone that has been trained and practiced within this industry for 21 years."

Hey Mr. Professional, You idiot. I was mocking you. But since you bring it up, I like how you word things to make them sound like one thing but could mean something else, then when someone calls you out on your BS you just say " I never said that". Like your above post.

"I didn't say I have been a professional wildlife biologist for 21 years. Go back and read. But as for being a biologist I have been one here in TexASS. Where else?"

"I have been one" What does that mean? Where you one or are you one? Which is it, Mr Professional?
 
Dude you are making about as much since as Liberace at a David Allen Coe concert. I am really unsure of your babbling quotations and what may or may not be arguments but I will try my best to answer your question.

Both.

As for "wording things", I don't know how to help you. Maybe I don't call people enough rude names and make fun of their vocation like you do but I have kept it all straight forward. If you have trouble with that then that is your problem and not mine.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Nov-22-13
>AT 07:15?PM (MST)
>
>Coues,
>Guess where the AZ statewide deer
>tag is auctioned off at.
> For mule deer and
>coues. Not all
>the Utah guys are pissed.
> Your only seeing a
>small group of upset individuals
>that squak on the forums,
>come on up to Utah
>for the expo and you'll
>see how many are actually
>ok with it. Come
>up and attend a few
>banquets. I'll take you
>for a drive and show
>you the projects those dollars
>pay for and then you
>can make a decision based
>on more than a few
>of us Internet clowns fighting.
> Am serious come
>on up for the weekend.
> You'd have a ball.
> I'll even pay for
>your ticket to get in.
>

Yeah come up, come see how many guys acutally pay to get in(very few), come see how many acutally pay to attend the banquet(fewer), see how many bid on tags(small handful, same guys every year). While your up here lets go for a ride and see how many deer you can see, not $fw numbers, actual numbers. Come up on opener weekend, we will hit a check station, you can see how "successful" $fw has been in improving the herds. Come check out a state that used to close for buisness on deerhunt weekend. Schools closed. Freeways were packed. Come see what deer hunting looks like in N. Utah. Come listen to $fw tell you about how they have done such great things, then we will go to places like Sterling Utah, which haven't changed in 50 years. No urban sprawl, no development, AND NO DEER. Then while your here lets go for a ride up to Batemans house, or Peays. Come to a RAC, wildlife board meeting. Come see what $fw is all about. Come see the deer on Antelope Island(unless the island is closed for Denny that weekend). $fw has accomplished ZERO. Yeah I know there are guys in the field doing good things, but numbers are numbers, and facts are facts, the deer herd has continued to CRASH since $fw started "saving the mule deer". THAT IS NO UP FOR DISPUTE.

Muley, your right, with or WITHOUT $fw, the deer have crashed, so pretty much we could have not given out all the $fw/mdf welfare, and got the same result. Thanks for at least being honest about what they have accomplished. Funny how DU gets money, and even some welfare, and even in the middle of droughts they continue to contribute to record waterfowl numbers, 107 day seasons, etc, etc. That is what is called success, $fw has no record to show of success. FACT!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 

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