Long Range Shooting

[Cowboy]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-21-04 AT 08:24AM (MST)[p]I know this sounds like a whine, but I hate hearing about guys that try and take shots out past about 350 yards, and argue about the merits of guns capable of killing at thoe ranges.

I always ask myself "just how many practice shots have you taken at those ranges? Based on experience and not a magazine article or reloading book, do you know how your bullet tracks with gravity and wind on it?" I bet most of the time the answer is No.

Precious few of us even live in an area where you can realistically burn up a few hundred rounds each summer under hunting conditions at long ranges.

This leads me to conclude on the age old argument about hunting cartridges that any load with the ballistics of a 165 grain 30-06 at 2800 to 3000 fps is just fine for the vast majority of shooters on North American game, provided they keep their shots within ranges that they have practiced within the previous year.

Its kind of like golfing. Is it really going to do me that much good to have a driver like Tiger Woods if I banana hook my ball into the next fairway? I can par or bogey way more holes with a 7 iron and a putter.

Anyway thats my beef. Rebuttal?

 

[RELH]

Cowboy;
For the most part, you are right on. I have seen too many guys take a long range shot that they are only counting on pure luck to hit the vital zone. I have seen several guys sling lead and empty their rifle at a long range elk instead of trying to stalk closer. I do not hunt with those guys anymore. But you have to keep it in mind that there are hunters that can make consistant vital zone hits out to 500-600 yards as well as most guys make hits at 100 yards.
I have had to take approx. six shots that were between 400-600 yards on deer and antelope due to open range and not being able to get closer for a shot. Every one of those shots were a one shot kill in the lungs or heart. I have been lucky enought to have the training to take accurate long range shots, and I always use a rest of some type. Most of the shots were from the prone position using a fanny pack on a sagebush for a rest.
I also married a farmer's daughter and can practice all I want on long range shots. My Father-in-law had a firing range set up that went from 100 yards to 500 yards. The 500 yard target was a 8 inch round steel plow blade, same size as the vital area on a deer, that we could hit and listen for the gong. I watched my Father-in-law hit a deer twice at a range of 3 tenths of a mile, about 650 yards, and the two bullets were about 3 inches apart in the lungs.
He was famous with several guides in B.C. for making 500-600 yard one shot kills on big horn sheep and billy goats. The key is good training, a very accurate rifle, and lots of pratice. I will admit to blowing several shots, and they were at close range and due to me getting into too much of a hurry.
It seems that the long range ones give you plenty of time to get in position, dope the range and wind, and squeeze the trigger off. My Father-in-law used a 300 Weatherby he got in 1959, my rifle is a MarkII Mauser in 25-06 that I have used for the past 20 years. Both will shoot 1/2-3/4 inch groups.

RELH

 

[Cowboy]

RELH

Like you, I too have taken a few long shots after some deliberation. But also like you, I have what most would consider the ideal shooting/practice situation.

Whether you believe it or not, here is what I got going: My reloading room is in the corner of my basement, which has a 3' x 5' window. I can step on my bench go through the window and be sitting in a 3x6 window well, with a bench rest that looks out across a center pivot hayfield. There is a tall bluff about 800 to 1000 yards on the back of the hayfield. Here's the kicker, between my yard and the bluff is a prairie dog town. I have no neighbors in the line of fire for several miles, and they are well beyond the bluff in a river valley on the other side.

Not saying I am a sniper, but even with that set up and practice opportunity, I am very reluctant to take a 500 yard plus shot on a critter other than a varmint. Too much can go wrong with wind drift and misjudgment...I have seen it happen in practice.

 

[RELH]

Cowboy;
I understand where you are coming from. The bottom line is that you do not take the shot unless you are comfortable about having a very good chance of making the shot into the vital zone, and making a humane kill on the animal. A good sportsman will only shoot if he is very sure about making a humane kill, other folks just don't seem to give a damn about having a little respect for the game animal they are hunting. I'm glad to see that you fit into the "Sportsman" section of the hunting crowd.

Good Hunting;
RELH
P.S. You have one darn good pratice setup, I know guys who would give their left, you know what, to have that set up.

 

[Moondog]

Cowboy, I would have to agree with you where MOST people are concerned.
As you said, there is too much that can go wrong at long range, not to mention how the bullet may or may not perform once it reaches the target.
However, that being said, if the shooter is well practiced and really knows when to take the shot and under what conditions make the shot feasible, then it is not such a bad thing.

The problem is there are too many people out there who really do not understand ballistics or have a clue as to what a particular rifle is capable of and think that the sky is the limit.

RELH and Clint Eastwood are both right. "A mans got to know his limitations".

 

[threelemonbob]

your right for the most part. Ive only ahot over 300 yards at 1 animal. Used a 7mm topped with the new burris b-plex. I shot a lot all summer and when I shot her she was 613 yds. the first 2 shots, hit her 1 time in the brisket. The next 2 shots were walking away at 648. Hit her again(in the @ss) and had to go find her. I dont like taking that long of shots but couldnt get any closer. Even with the scope and rangefinder and knowing where to hold the wind was barely blowing and blew my bullet almost 2 feet to the right. At 600 yds. the bullet was dropping about 8 or 9 feet. Got to know exactly what your bullet is doing to shoot anywhere over 400 yds.

 

[RLH]

if i have to, i'll shoot a long ways. rather not, but it happens. buck this year was around 400. didn't range it, but i'm a pretty good guesser. it was a standing off hand shot too. i've also only shot one rifle for 30 years, shot the same load for about 25. same scope too. i have other guns, lots of em, and i take one on occasion. but when i'm serious my ol' .270 is the one in the scabbard. i know where it hits, and i know how it "feels". most folks don't have any business shooting period, much less at a couple hundred yards. i've experienced some things while guiding elk hunters that i don't even like to remember, much less talk about. it's amazing how worthless some folks can make a $2000 rifle/scope/ammo combo. fanciest custom stainless rifle they can buy, a big scope with a "z" in the name and high dollar ammo. all tuned in. and when they get a shot they can't hit the same mountain the game is on. shooting is just like anything else. the more you do it, the better you get at it. most folks don't shoot enough to stay proficient. in fact, most folks never get proficient to start with.

 

[Cowboy]

Shooting is one of those activities that has a lot of machismo attached to it. The sad thing is that hunters are not held accountable for their lack of proficiency. We all make our misses - and I have had some painfully memorable ones - but there is so much room for improvement.

A lot of guys think that proficiency is in understanding the science of shooting. The shooting rags are literally filled with articles on the science of shooting.

Problem is, the science rapidly decreases with distance from the muzzle, while the art of shooting increases. The art of shooting is just like any other art in that most people can become better at it and only a very few will truly excel. In any event it takes practice, and the longer the range the more the practice. I believe that shooting long range (say past about 6 inches of theoretical bullet path variance from line of sight for gravity and wind) requires dedication to practice to be a responsible hunter. Dedication to me means practice to the point that the first shot at a given range will be in a 12 inch circle every time before a shot is taken at game that same range.

I hope that by taking the opportunity to point this out it may have some wee impact on hunters. Even if it means one less maimed elk on the feed grounds it will be worth it for all of us to harp on this.

 

[ELKMASTER101]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-26-04 AT 09:17AM (MST)[p]i remember the time when i was just a pup.
back in my teen years,
lived in the country and ran a trap line ever morning in the season just before i caught the bus to school.
I also carried my shot gun to shoot duck that i would jump.
it was a cool crisp mornning and i started out.
had'nt gone more than a 1/4 mile or so down the creek, when i turned to see a flock of ducks winging there way to me.
crouching down to not be seen, i let them wing in.
at the last min. i jumped up and sky blasted at them.
bam, bam, bam, dang i was out of shells.
i dropped my guns right there and ran for home, grabed another load of shells off my dresser and ran back the creek.
i shoved in the shells and looked around there were 2 woodies on the ground.
The third one was just about to hit the ground at my feet.
it was just like it happend yeasterday,
god as my witness that was one long shot.