Mature bulls help population

[txhunter58]

So in Colorado the CPW has stated on record that they are growing the herd in SW Co by slaughtering the heck out of bulls (they estimate 13/100 before this is done) and drastically lowering the cow tags.

Elk 101 in the new Bugle magazine shows a study in Oregon that indicates that having fewer mature bulls to breed leads in a prolonged rut and calves born late. Which end ups hurting calf survival. Seems like calf survival is one of the big issues in SW CO? Makes you wonder.

 

[Muley]

That sounds like a dumb plan but i'm not surprised when talking about the DOW.

They cut tags in half in the unit I hunt for elk. It sounds like they already have less elk.

 

[hossblur]

Males have very little biological necessity after they breed. And in fact excess bulls lead to exhaustion putting bulls in a severely weakened position heading to winter. What's good for hunters isn't the same as good for elk.

There's newer research on the role of early green up and the cycle of cow elk.

Yes. Global warming stuff. Not cow farts, but tge roll of nutrition for cows that birth and need recovery. They are recovering later, pushing them later into fall before coming into heat.

 

[txhunter58]

" Males have very little biological necessity after they breed "

That is the issue isn't it. AFTER THEY BREED. Question is, when all the breeders are young, do the cows get bred and pregnant on their first cycle. There has to be a happy medium. Need enough bulls with the "balls" to get all of the cows inseminated on the first go round. Sounds like that doesn't happen when all the breeders are youngsters.

If what you are saying is true, then wouldn't the rut be shifting to later in the fall? I don't hear anyone say that is happening, or am I missing it?

I agree that having too many bulls can be bad, but I still wonder if having too low numbers of bulls and most of them yearlings, can't be contributing to problems. It is most likely not just one thing, but multiple

 

[hossblur]

Ever seen a herd of elk. There's usually only one or 2 bulls breeding.

Its not a hard concept to see if you live near mtns. The slow retreat of snow and tge green zone that follows it has excellerated. A cow drops calfs, and nurses them. That green zone nutrition allows her to recoup what she loses. That green zone disappears faster now days, leaving less time to recoup on the highest nutrition. Its also why fire season starts earlier, the grass dries out.

So you have first year breeders come into heat in sept. Others into nov.

The result is calves drop for 2 months, giving predators plenty of time to get to them, vs all of them dropping at the same time. Calf mortality increases, hurting herd numbers.

In short, bulls didnt have anything to do with herd building. The timeframe the the cows come into heat does. And these studies are showing its more spread out due in large part to late spring/early summer nutrition.


Im pretty sure it was on elk 101, or Newbergs sites.

 

[DWBMontana]

How big of "herd" are you referring to that requires one or two bulls to breed? I observe elk pretty much every fall at Slippery Ann in the Missouri breaks, there are hundreds of elk in the refuge, sure as hell a lot more then 1 or 2 bulls breeding....

 

[grosventrehunter]

How did elk ever survive without those educated biologists...and hoss. Better add the numbers to the spread sheet and see what education gets you.

 

[txhunter58]

You may indeed be correct but I need to see the data you are referring to. Please post some references. I would expect that the data you are referring to show the calving period to be much longer today than say 20 years ago.

What you are saying is that bull numbers are meaningless even at very low numbers and even with mostly young bulls doing the breeding. That There are enough bulls so that all the cows coming in heat ARE getting bred on their first cycle, but due to global warming, that is not happening quickly, but over months rather than mostly in September/ early October. Is that correct?

The article I am referencing was in Elk 101 in the RMEF latest Bugle magazine. I still wonder if both may be happening.

 

[txhunter58]

And to be clear. I am not just some Texas elk hunter looking to find blame with CPWs policies for why we aren’t seeing more bulls. I am a veterinarian who understands breeding cycles and calving intervals pretty well. I just think multiple factors may be at play.

For instance, you mention greater predation due to the prolonged calving interval. That could very well be a big factor, but you have to also factor in that 20 years ago there were far less predators. And unfortunately I don’t see that changing.

 

[SS!]

And to be clear. I am not just some Texas elk hunter looking to find blame with CPWs policies for why we aren’t seeing more bulls. I am a veterinarian who understands breeding cycles and calving intervals pretty well. I just think multiple factors may be at play.

For instance, you mention greater predation due to the prolonged calving interval. That could very well be a big factor, but you have to also factor in that 20 years ago there were far less predators. And unfortunately I don’t see that changing.

Can you provide references to where 20 years ago there were less predators in CO?

 

[hossblur]

How did elk ever survive without those educated biologists...and hoss. Better add the numbers to the spread sheet and see what education gets you.

Well. In my neighborhood they didnt. We had to ship in elk out of Yellowstone in early 1900s.

Doubt they brought many bulls to birth calves, but then what do I know.

 

[hossblur]

And to be clear. I am not just some Texas elk hunter looking to find blame with CPWs policies for why we aren’t seeing more bulls. I am a veterinarian who understands breeding cycles and calving intervals pretty well. I just think multiple factors may be at play.

For instance, you mention greater predation due to the prolonged calving interval. That could very well be a big factor, but you have to also factor in that 20 years ago there were far less predators. And unfortunately I don’t see that changing.

The biological reason for calving "season" is basically so that the predators are too "full" to kill them all.

By spreading the season out, it gives predators more time. Especiallyvblack bears.

Genetics arent determined by age of bull. DNA is DNA

 

[hossblur]

And to be clear. I am not just some Texas elk hunter looking to find blame with CPWs policies for why we aren’t seeing more bulls. I am a veterinarian who understands breeding cycles and calving intervals pretty well. I just think multiple factors may be at play.

For instance, you mention greater predation due to the prolonged calving interval. That could very well be a big factor, but you have to also factor in that 20 years ago there were far less predators. And unfortunately I don’t see that changing.

There were far more predators pre settler, and far more elk as well.

There generally are other factors, biology isn't static.

But you are talking Colorado. No wolves (cough) yet. No grizzlies. So you talking cats and black bears mostly. Neither of whom are as likely to snatch a full grown elk.

 

[hossblur]

Migrating elk dwindling because of climate change, predators

Migration used to be a good strategy for animals to find the best food, but a recent study appears to show that climate change and human interference favor animals that

www.bozemandailychronicle.com

This is the overview.

I try to find the actual study.

There were corresponding studies detailing how this expanded calving season has lead to the explosion in black bear populations.

Like you stated their is always more than one thing happening.

That green wave on the mountain, disappears faster. I have no metrics, but observationally, and based on how early we get on the mtn year to year, snow recedes faster than 20 years ago.

 

[Bluehair]

Can you provide references to where 20 years ago there were less predators in CO?

Tx can throw me out as a reference. It's generally accepted by those of who've been around that long that there are more predators now. Most point to the prohibition against baiting as about when it started. And 20 years ago a woof wasn't even in the conversation.

But this is one of the most humorous threads going. We are actually debating what could happen to the herd here when there will be over competition among bulls. Most around here would settle for being able to see one again sometime.

 

[txhunter58]

The biological reason for calving "season" is basically so that the predators are too "full" to kill them all.

By spreading the season out, it gives predators more time. Especiallyvblack bears.

Genetics arent determined by age of bull. DNA is DNA

I understand spreading out the calving season increases the number of calves eaten. That is just common sense. But I guess you aren’t understanding what I am trying to say. I realize a 5 year old bull has the same DNA as a yearling. But it seems likely to me that a 5 year old, who knows what he is doing and has done this before, will likely breed more cows than a yearling per day/week during the peak of the rut.

And from strictly a numbers game, do we have enough bull elk, of any age, to breed all the cows coming in heat that FIRST cycle. That is the key. Because of multiple factors, including us hunting during breeding season, elk are not usually in big herds standing around to be bred. They are scattered in small herds over lots of country. When I hunt in September these days, I see groups of cows with no bull. We need enough bulls to handle that and I feel we may be having issues there.

And if a yearling, or any age bull, is breeding 5+ cows in 2 days, is he shooting blanks sometimes? And they have to get this done all while we are running around in the woods calling and shooting at them. I do realize that much of the breeding takes place at night but we do scatter the elk out over a much larger area.

Also, if they have data to show that the calving season is longer now, that is a fact and is measurable. As to why most of the cows are not getting bred in September, that’s more of a theory. Could support both your theory and mine, or more likely both.

 

[SS!]

Tx can throw me out as a reference. It's generally accepted by those of who've been around that long that there are more predators now. Most point to the prohibition against baiting as about when it started. And 20 years ago a woof wasn't even in the conversation.

But this is one of the most humorous threads going. We are actually debating what could happen to the herd here when there will be over competition among bulls. Most around here would settle for being able to see one again sometime.

Hahaha generally accepted. That’s a good one. You did get one thing right, this thread is humorous. Anytime you get a Texan talking game management it’s good for a few laughs.

Colorado’s problem is there’s too many people. That’s it. You want to get the elk populations back pick up an AK 47 and start spraying the state.

 

[hossblur]

I understand spreading out the calving season increases the number of calves eaten. That is just common sense. But I guess you aren’t understanding what I am trying to say. I realize a 5 year old bull has the same DNA as a yearling. But it seems likely to me that a 5 year old, who knows what he is doing and has done this before, will likely breed more cows than a yearling per day/week during the peak of the rut.

And from strictly a numbers game, do we have enough bull elk, of any age, to breed all the cows coming in heat that FIRST cycle. That is the key. Because of multiple factors, including us hunting during breeding season, elk are not usually in big herds standing around to be bred. They are scattered in small herds over lots of country. When I hunt in September these days, I see groups of cows with no bull. We need enough bulls to handle that and I feel we may be having issues there.

And if a yearling, or any age bull, is breeding 5+ cows in 2 days, is he shooting blanks sometimes? And they have to get this done all while we are running around in the woods calling and shooting at them. I do realize that much of the breeding takes place at night but we do scatter the elk out over a much larger area.

Also, if they have data to show that the calving season is longer now, that is a fact and is measurable. As to why most of the cows are not getting bred in September, that’s more of a theory. Could support both your theory and mine, or more likely both.

Most likely both.

 

[Bluehair]

Hahaha generally accepted. That’s a good one. You did get one thing right, this thread is humorous. Anytime you get a Texan talking game management it’s good for a few laughs.

Colorado’s problem is there’s too many people. That’s it. You want to get the elk populations back pick up an AK 47 and start spraying the state.

Pull up a bar stool around these parts and ask the dude next to you if we have more or less predators. Generally accepted is polite.

Colorado's problem is there are too many people who vote here and don't hunt, and too many people who hunt here and don't vote here.

The animals pay the price. In the units we are talking about (where I have lived for quite a while), look at the number of left over archery tags and tell me with a straight face it isn't a de facto unlimited OTC unit.

 

[Muley]

Save elk and deer. Kill a bear and a cat.

Too many hunters buy a bear tag to have during their elk or deer hunts in case they see a bear. They take the tags from the real bear hunters. Bear tags used to be easy to get in my unit. Now you need points and bear kills haven't gone up but down.

Plus, the tree huggers voted out baiting and hounds. I wouldn't use either method but it did keep bear kills higher. Now we have more bears and less deer and elk.

I love Colorado and have hunted it since the 50's but sometimes they pass stupid laws.

 

[SS!]

Killing more bears and cats isn’t going to change chit. It’s way past that point now.

 

[Muley]

Sure it is. Bears kill newborn calves and fawns. Who knows how many? Do you? Everyone not killed grows the herd. Colorado has too many bears and not enough mule deer.

Cats kill one adult deer a week. Times how many cats?

It all helps. As does hunters killing predators. I haven't even mentioned coyotes. Too many of them too.

Hard winters kills deer too but we can't do anything about that. We can do something about predators. Watch what happens to the elk herd when the wolves get here in numbers.

 

[txhunter58]

“Colorado's problem is there are too many people who vote here and don't hunt, and too many people who hunt here and don't vote here.“

Profound and true words right there.

 

[txhunter58]

" The animals pay the price. In the units we are talking about (where I have lived for quite a while), look at the number of left over archery tags and tell me with a straight face it isn't a de facto unlimited OTC unit. "

Yep.

Bottom line for me is that the CPW seems to think all they have to do is limit cow tags and the herd will rebound. I believe it is a more complex an issue than that. The reason they want to believe that is believing otherwise costs them lots of money in lost tag sales. They went too many years with liberal either sex tags and now we are paying the price. And I also believe that if we had 25 bulls/100 cows, instead of 13/100, more cows would get bred in their first heat (in September). It certainly isn't the only issue, maybe not the biggest, but I believe it can certainly be one of them.

And at 62, with more seasons behind me than in front of me, I cherish each time I hunt elk. But having said that, I would be willing to have them limit bulls in all seasons where I hunt even if that means I can't hunt every year. The herd dynamics are not healthy, and I think until they are, the CPW and hunters have to be willing to make some sacrifices.

 

[txhunter58]

Migrating elk dwindling because of climate change, predators

Migration used to be a good strategy for animals to find the best food, but a recent study appears to show that climate change and human interference favor animals that

www.bozemandailychronicle.com

This is the overview.

I try to find the actual study.

There were corresponding studies detailing how this expanded calving season has lead to the explosion in black bear populations.

Like you stated their is always more than one thing happening.

That green wave on the mountain, disappears faster. I have no metrics, but observationally, and based on how early we get on the mtn year to year, snow recedes faster than 20 years ago.

From the article:

"But the Clark Fork cows drop their calves in central Wyoming and then migrate to Yellowstone, where wolves, grizzly bears, black bears and mountain lions await.
During the two decades of the study, the grizzly bear population increased fourfold. Wolves didn’t start having an effect until around 2000, but then their numbers climbed four times higher also."



I don't see anything in that article specifically showing a longer calving season as playing a role in increased predation. It may be in the actual data. If you say you have seen it, I believe you. But again, that could be caused both by poor nutrition and body condition of elk delaying breeding, and simply not having enough experienced males to breed.

And at least in this herd, 20% less elk are getting pregnant, and more calves that are born are getting eaten. That certainly could bolster the theory of reduced green period and increased predators. Pretty bad combination. We are not really in a position to help solve the "global warming" issues, but what about decreasing predators?? Doable, and yet sadly not. And now bring on the wolves!!!

 

[hossblur]

Study reaffirms bears biggest predator threat to young elk calves

A five-year interagency study of elk-calf mortality in the Garnet Mountains of Montana has reaffirmed that bears are the largest predator threat to the calves' survival.

billingsgazette.com

 

[txhunter58]

Study reaffirms bears biggest predator threat to young elk calves

A five-year interagency study of elk-calf mortality in the Garnet Mountains of Montana has reaffirmed that bears are the largest predator threat to the calves' survival.

billingsgazette.com

Hmmm. Curious what the bull to cow ration is there. Says that 70 % of calves were born in a 6 day period.