MAYBE THE GAL THAT WANTED LAKE POWELL TAKEN BACK TO ORIGINAL RIVER WILL GET HER WISH???

That sucks. I guess the one plus of this massive winter we are having is it will significantly raise lake levels. 200% snowpack in many regions that feed Powell.
Unfortunately the deer that are left, are going to take a MAJOR hit this winter.
 
This winter is barely going to touch Lake Powell at all. It should help it drop less than it has the last couple years, but don’t anticipate Lake Powell having much meaningful “refilling” on this winter alone.

I’m very interested to see where we are in July as compared to last year on water elevation.
 
Not saying its going to fill it up, but it definitely will raise the water level significantly. With water levels as low as they are, the lake is covering much less real estate, in turn rising/falling much faster than if it were full.
It will come up this summer, hard to say how much. If this winter stays on this pattern, it wouldn't surprise me to see a 30' to 40' rise in the spring.
 
Again, I’d be less concerned about how much run off raises it (that has happened every year, even in drought), but how much gained over last year at the same time. If it raises 30 feet and then drops 50 feet this year, we aren’t ahead. (Picked those numbers arbitrarily, they aren’t predictions.)

The water is good and it is needed. I just think people are going to be surprised how little it impacts refilling places like Lake Powell and the GSL. But we’ll take whatever we can get! Even keeping it static and preventing it from dropping more is a benefit in a lot of ways.
 
I cannot figure out what some people want.

Isn't the purpose of Lake Powell to allow a more even flow of water to the consumers downstream? Hasn't it done just that?

Ya, the drought sucks but the people who depend on the water were supplied with water!

Can you imagine if there was no Lake Powell and we went through this 10 year drought cycle? It would turn the places downstream into ghost towns if we wouldn't have had that pond!

Zeke
 
I'll Agree With Niller!

Did I Just Say That?:D

It Would Take Many Exceptional Years To Get It Back!

But Cess Pools Do Need Cleaning Once In A Great While!
 
Zeke said:
I cannot figure out what some people want.

Isn't the purpose of Lake Powell to allow a more even flow of water to the consumers downstream? Hasn't it done just that?

Ya, the drought sucks but the people who depend on the water were supplied with water!

Can you imagine if there was no Lake Powell and we went through this 10 year drought cycle? It would turn the places downstream into ghost towns if we wouldn't have had that pond!

Zeke
Click to expand...

Well, that is one part of many purposes it serves, but how much longer until it does not produce for “downstream consumers?”

Or the electrical generation people rely upon?

Or the economic foundation to entire regions?

Your text is way over-simplified. But yes, it has thus far been able to supply water to downstream consumers. I guess there is nothing to see here. Proceed as normal…
 
California scare and strong arming tactic with Colorado deep throating. Polis and Newsom are in cahoots. If California would not exceed their compact allocation Powell would not be in the critical shape it is today. If Powell and Mead were run the way as in outlined in the original reservoir operations plan Powell would be sitting pretty and Mead would be in crisis. BOR is allowing this travesty to play out for political purposes with Cali leading the charge. What about Havasu and Mohave? How many millions of acre feet are in these buckets, oh and they are full. Always full... You always here about minimum power pool too. Makes me question if the hydropower shuts down at Powell will the lower basin states go dark? Yet they transition away from that dirty old coal and natural gas for their green energy. Why isn't desalination being used more? Cali has a $1 billion trust fund created to build more reservoirs. How much of that fund has been spent to date? How many acres of ag is idle for the sake of water conservation and critical environmental needs? How many millions of acre feet of fresh water is flowing to the ocean this year?
 
All I could find was the last time water reached the ocean from the Colorado river was 2014.
Do you have anything more recent?

The whole thing is a pretty complicated mess.
 
Zeke said:
I cannot figure out what some people want.

Isn't the purpose of Lake Powell to allow a more even flow of water to the consumers downstream? Hasn't it done just that?

Ya, the drought sucks but the people who depend on the water were supplied with water!

Can you imagine if there was no Lake Powell and we went through this 10 year drought cycle? It would turn the places downstream into ghost towns if we wouldn't have had that pond!

Zeke
Click to expand...

If Powell didn't exist to begin with, the places downstream wouldn't be what they currently are.
 
tailchasers said:
California scare and strong arming tactic with Colorado deep throating. Polis and Newsom are in cahoots. If California would not exceed their compact allocation Powell would not be in the critical shape it is today. If Powell and Mead were run the way as in outlined in the original reservoir operations plan Powell would be sitting pretty and Mead would be in crisis. BOR is allowing this travesty to play out for political purposes with Cali leading the charge. What about Havasu and Mohave? How many millions of acre feet are in these buckets, oh and they are full. Always full... You always here about minimum power pool too. Makes me question if the hydropower shuts down at Powell will the lower basin states go dark? Yet they transition away from that dirty old coal and natural gas for their green energy. Why isn't desalination being used more? Cali has a $1 billion trust fund created to build more reservoirs. How much of that fund has been spent to date? How many acres of ag is idle for the sake of water conservation and critical environmental needs? How many millions of acre feet of fresh water is flowing to the ocean this year?
Click to expand...

The coal plant at Antelope Point has been gone now a couple of years, the hydropower produced at Powell is minimal to affect the grid enough for the lower basin? states to go dark. It wouldn't help, but they wouldn't go dark.
 
roadrunner said:
And yet the grid can support two coal plants to come offline within 3 years of each other in the SW....
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It's part of their green deal. When I participate in the conversations about Powell reservoir levels 'minimum power pool' is near the top of priorities. Not protection of a compact call. They loose Powell hydropower they will need to fire up 'dirty fossil fuel' power plant. They will run Powell at minimum to pressure and guilt trip the un or under informed water users upstream to feed the California natural resource consumptive pig.

LakePowell_KeyElevations_0.jpg
 
tailchasers said:
It's part of their green deal. When I participate in the conversations about Powell reservoir levels 'minimum power pool' is near the top of priorities. Not protection of a compact call. They loose Powell hydropower they will need to fire up 'dirty fossil fuel' power plant. They will run Powell at minimum to pressure and guilt trip the un or under informed water users upstream to feed the California natural resource consumptive pig.

View attachment 103838
Click to expand...

I'm well aware of the impact a loss in MW's has having spent some time in the power generation industry. The "grid", however, is interconnected enough to where power is found when needed at a certain trading price. The loss of Powell will not make any region go "dark". What it will do is cause you to experience some periodic brown-outs along with other people depending on grid draw. Swings in temp for hot and cold increase usage taxing the system. It would also likely cause your power bill to increase whether you like it or not and whether or not your main power supply comes directly from Powell, again, depending on the trading price at the time...
 
All this talk about the strained power grid make me wonder even more about Brandon's huge push for EV's.

Now they Gov (in all their wisdom) is looking seriously about putting power strips in the road so an EV owner can just drive to charge their batteries and never have stop for a charge. Sounds good, huh? Well, I see another way for us all to pay for the damn EV's and another governmental agency to form, therefor increasing taxes even more.

We're on a slippery slope kids!

I know, a bit off-subject but it's all interconnected.

Zeke
 
Zeke said:
All this talk about the strained power grid make me wonder even more about Brandon's huge push for EV's.

Now they Gov (in all their wisdom) is looking seriously about putting power strips in the road so an EV owner can just drive to charge their batteries and never have stop for a charge. Sounds good, huh? Well, I see another way for us all to pay for the damn EV's and another governmental agency to form, therefor increasing taxes even more.

We're on a slippery slope kids!

I know, a bit off-subject but it's all interconnected.

Zeke
Click to expand...

Without good paying jobs made by industry (power and fuel production namely), the gov can forget about tax revenues to pay for anything.

Tea anyone?
 
Maybe not thanks to the drought. But the over use of water in Arizona, Nevada and California mostly but they will suffer the most.
 
deadibob said:
Lake Powell isn’t coming back and that’s all there is to it.
Click to expand...

Depends on what you consider “back.” Filling up to full pool? Yeah, probably never happening without catastrophic amounts of water…which I’m okay not getting.

But filling back to a sustainable and consistent level to meet its purposes would be nice. That level is below full pool, but above where we are now. Fingers crossed we get there.
 
Vanilla said:
Depends on what you consider “back.” Filling up to full pool? Yeah, probably never happening without catastrophic amounts of water…which I’m okay not getting.

But filling back to a sustainable and consistent level to meet its purposes would be nice. That level is below full pool, but above where we are now. Fingers crossed we get there.
Click to expand...
Yeah we will never see full pool again which sucks. I bought a brand new boat a week before graduating high school back in ‘89. The day after graduation a buddy and I headed to Powell planning to spend the summer before college started . We would get up first thing in the morning while the lake was glass (usually around Lone Rock) ski for a few hours and then we would fish while getting hammered. Late afternoon we would hang out at the beach in search of females. Crash for the night, wake up and repeat.

We spent a lot of time exploring the lake. What a blast we had. The only summer that topped that one was the next summer when a different friend and I drove to Alaska got jobs in Fairbanks and explored while living in a tent all summer.

I think the odds are pretty good there won’t be a Lake Powell in ten years unless there are serious changes in climate and water use.
 
Changes are inevitable just to who and where. There is a necessary "retooling" of the USA and western water use is one of them. Drought is only a cycle which will end. Human nature to exploit and sustainably use our natural resources will need to biggest challenge. If we want to fill Powell and Mead we will.
 
deadibob said:
Lake Powell isn’t coming back and that’s all there is to it.
Click to expand...

Never say never.

Once upon a time ago in 2005 a reservoir near me was extremely low. The learned "esperts" pontificated that it would take 10 years of consistent and above normal snowpack to bring it back with minimized water usage only for essential operations.

It came back in one winter the following year.

This reservoir is in the Rocky Mtn West.
 
Never is a long time but it may take awhile.


"The unregulated inflow volume to Lake Powell during January was 361 thousand acre-feet (kaf) (107 percent of average). The release volume from Glen Canyon Dam in January was 500 kaf. The end of January elevation and storage of Lake Powell were 3,523.45 feet (177 feet from full pool) and 5.45 million acre-feet (maf) (23 percent of live capacity), respectively."

"The February forecast for water year 2023 ranges from a minimum probable of 8.37 maf (87 percent of average) to a January forecasted maximum probable of 14.93 maf (155 percent of average) with the most probable forecast for water year 2023 of 10.44 maf (109 percent of average). There is a 10 percent chance that inflows could be higher than the current maximum probable forecast and a 10 percent chance that inflows could be lower than the minimum probable forecast."

"The unregulated inflow during the 2000-2022 period has ranged from a low of 2.64 maf (28 percent of average) in water year 2002 to a high of 15.97 maf (166 percent of average) in water year 2011."
 
roadrunner said:
Never say never.

Once upon a time ago in 2005 a reservoir near me was extremely low. The learned "esperts" pontificated that it would take 10 years of consistent and above normal snowpack to bring it back with minimized water usage only for essential operations.

It came back in one winter the following year.

This reservoir is in the Rocky Mtn West.
Click to expand...
I’m saying never. I’ve seen reservoirs dry up as well and be replenished. They are nothing like Lake Powell. Once the dam was finished it took 16 years to get to full pool and they weren’t sucking water out of it like they are now. Right now we are 22% of full pool. It isn’t coming back in one winter and it will never be at full pool again.

We’re going to have to redirect the mighty Mississippi this way or a lot of us are going to have to pack up and leave like the Anasazi did.
Years ago someone had the bright idea of bringing big icebergs down from the Artic by way of tugboat.?
 
Years ago I was on the Continental divide and pissed down both sides (took photos for the slideshow at my funeral?). I wonder how much of that made it into Lake Powell?
I can only hope some Californian got a glass full.?
 
deadibob said:
I’m saying never. I’ve seen reservoirs dry up as well and be replenished. They are nothing like Lake Powell. Once the dam was finished it took 16 years to get to full pool and they weren’t sucking water out of it like they are now. Right now we are 22% of full pool. It isn’t coming back in one winter and it will never be at full pool again.

We’re going to have to redirect the mighty Mississippi this way or a lot of us are going to have to pack up and leave like the Anasazi did.
Years ago someone had the bright idea of bringing big icebergs down from the Artic by way of tugboat.?
Click to expand...

Never said it would come back in one winter. FYI, that reservoir I was talking about is on a river system that feeds Powell.

And good luck redirecting 'Ol Man River...
 
roadrunner said:
Never said it would come back in one winter. FYI, that reservoir I was talking about is on a river system that feeds Powell.

And good luck redirecting 'Ol Man River...
Click to expand...
Redirecting the Mississippi River isn’t my idea (some don’t understand sarcasm)and it is a ridiculous one at that but I did read an article a while back that was serious in the idea of a pipeline from the Mississippi to the Colorado river.

Why the mystery about naming the reservoir you speak of? Is it because you don’t know all the facts and the real reason for draining it was to do dam repairs?

I will put money that in five years Lake Powell will be closer to dead pool than it will be to refilling. Going off annual average elevation and not at the end of runoff season.

SUWA needs their sandy beaches in the Grand Canyon.
 
I knew the Mississippi comment by you was sarcasm as it was apparent in the post. I only linked what I did because I’ve seen those same statements about the pipeline across the continental divide. I’ve heard similar arguments for taking water from the Columbia and piping it to the GSL.

And I agree with your assessment that it will be closer to dead pool than full pool in 5 years. Sadly, I agree. I hope we are both dead wrong on that one though! Lake Powell is such an awesome place.
 
deadibob said:
Redirecting the Mississippi River isn’t my idea (some don’t understand sarcasm)and it is a ridiculous one at that but I did read an article a while back that was serious in the idea of a pipeline from the Mississippi to the Colorado river.

Why the mystery about naming the reservoir you speak of? Is it because you don’t know all the facts and the real reason for draining it was to do dam repairs?

I will put money that in five years Lake Powell will be closer to dead pool than it will be to refilling. Going off annual average elevation and not at the end of runoff season.

SUWA needs their sandy beaches in the Grand Canyon.
Click to expand...

Navajo Lake. Fed by the Pine, Piedra, and San Juan where the first two named feed the San Juan. The San Juan flows out of Navajo and feeds Powell directly. Before Powell though, the Animas and La Plata feed the San Juan. Navajo fuels one of the largest agricultural projects in the country and is located on the Navajo Reservation.

The reservoir was built in the late 1960's for that very reason. The town of Rosa, NM was buried under water near the southern border of CO near the mouth of Eul Canyon (great smallmouth fishing there by the way). Unit 2B in Rio Arriba County is on the southern shore of the lake as it runs nearly 30 miles from the dam upstream into CO.

Severe drought hit NW NM and SW CO in 2004-2005 (and maybe in 2003, I can't remember exactly and don't really care to look it up, but you can if you want) and had very little snowpack and spring run-off. The "down-streamers" cried too much, and water was sent.

NAPI got its allotment no matter what - welcome to tribal politics. Phoenix would burn up and blow away before a tribe is required to give up its water rights.

Also, in about 2010 or so, high discharges were sent downstream to Powell most of the summer because UT and WY just didn't have the "world's greatest snow on earth" that year and levels were low.

Navajo Lake State Park

NAPI

So, bob, does that shed enough light on it for you? Sorry to burst your bubble, but those are the facts...
 
roadrunner said:
Navajo Lake. Fed by the Pine, Piedra, and San Juan where the first two named feed the San Juan. The San Juan flows out of Navajo and feeds Powell directly. Before Powell though, the Animas and La Plata feed the San Juan. Navajo fuels one of the largest agricultural projects in the country and is located on the Navajo Reservation.

The reservoir was built in the late 1960's for that very reason. The town of Rosa, NM was buried under water near the southern border of CO near the mouth of Eul Canyon (great smallmouth fishing there by the way). Unit 2B in Rio Arriba County is on the southern shore of the lake as it runs nearly 30 miles from the dam upstream into CO.

Severe drought hit NW NM and SW CO in 2004-2005 (and maybe in 2003, I can't remember exactly and don't really care to look it up, but you can if you want) and had very little snowpack and spring run-off. The "down-streamers" cried too much, and water was sent.

NAPI got its allotment no matter what - welcome to tribal politics. Phoenix would burn up and blow away before a tribe is required to give up its water rights.

Also, in about 2010 or so, high discharges were sent downstream to Powell most of the summer because UT and WY just didn't have the "world's greatest snow on earth" that year and levels were low.

Navajo Lake State Park

NAPI

So, bob, does that shed enough light on it for you? Sorry to burst your bubble, but those are the facts...
Click to expand...
Those facts of yours and little reservoirs have nothing to do with Lake Powell drying up or being refilled. Lake Powell is the second largest reservoir in the nation and not far downstream is the Largest Reservoir in the Nation (Lake Mead) which is in the same dire situation. The west is currently in the largest mega drought that there has been in the last 1,200 years. At the same time the west has been seeing more growth and water usage than ever imagined when these were built.
It isn't possible to fill these up in ten years even if there was no water being let out. IT TOOK 16 YEARS TO FILL LAKE POWELL!

We wouldn't be having tribal problems if Custer hadn't left his Gatlings behind.
 
deadibob said:
Those facts of yours and little reservoirs have nothing to do with Lake Powell drying up or being refilled. Lake Powell is the second largest reservoir in the nation and not far downstream is the Largest Reservoir in the Nation (Lake Mead) which is in the same dire situation. The west is currently in the largest mega drought that there has been in the last 1,200 years. At the same time the west has been seeing more growth and water usage than ever imagined when these were built.
It isn't possible to fill these up in ten years even if there was no water being let out. IT TOOK 16 YEARS TO FILL LAKE POWELL!

We wouldn't be having tribal problems if Custer hadn't left his Gatlings behind.
Click to expand...

Think you missed the part that Powell was filled in part by the river system I described. It's the watershed along the La Plata's and much of the San Juan Mountain range in SW CO. While the current situation is grim, you cannot say for certainty Powell will never again be filled.

Will it ever reach full pool? Maybe not. The last "mega-drought" ended and so will this one. 16 Years to fill? From the bottom up. With back and side canyons. All the while not generating power. All the while the discharge wasn't 10,000 cfs. Maybe the link below might help you understand a little more about Powell.

Lake Powell Water Database

FYI, Navajo is not a little reservoir. You've never been there, and it shows and for a guy that's an expert on Powell, you sure don't know much about it.

Next time read a post in its entirety before spouting off on the first line you disagree with...
 
1M ish AF of additional releases for lower basins for how long now on top of the agreed upon releases outlined in the compact, let's not forget the additional water out of Mead too that the lower basin sucked up. Doesn't take long to drain a 24Maf Powell when the BOR permits them to do so. Had those additional releases not been done Powell would be closer to 50%. Get back to Compact appropriated releases and the lower basins living within their allocated share, Powell will rise. Slowly but surely it will. The upper basin hasn't even come close to using their 7.5 Maf allocation and the unused portion should never never leave Powell. 2022 the UB used 1maf less while the LB used another Maf over their 7.5. Drought hurts but the LB has an over use problem. Pinch the valve down.
 
elkassassin said:
KALI Needs To Start a Capture on The Excessive Water Just about a couple Days Ago!
Click to expand...

Kali shouldn't have drained reservoirs in place and then breach the dams to keep them unusable.

tailchasers said:
1M ish AF of additional releases for lower basins for how long now on top of the agreed upon releases outlined in the compact, let's not forget the additional water out of Mead too that the lower basin sucked up. Doesn't take long to drain a 24Maf Powell when the BOR permits them to do so. Had those additional releases not been done Powell would be closer to 50%. Get back to Compact appropriated releases and the lower basins living within their allocated share, Powell will rise. Slowly but surely it will. The upper basin hasn't even come close to using their 7.5 Maf allocation and the unused portion should never never leave Powell. 2022 the UB used 1maf less while the LB used another Maf over their 7.5. Drought hurts but the LB has an over use problem. Pinch the valve down.
Click to expand...

Correct. It doesn't take long to drain a reservoir by discharging at a rate higher than the intake, even a "little" reservoir will feel the impact of that.

If Powell only discharged what was required to generate megawatts, the level would be in better shape. But, when every Tom, Dick, and Harry needs their swimming pools filled in the most arid parts of the nation with millions of residents within the city limits and surrounding area all the while generating power, well, it's pretty obvious.

Since Powell is filled primarily by the CO, it's what's happening in that water shed system that should be monitored before downstream decisions are made. Unless, of course, a tribe steps into the mix. Then it all changes...
 
It’s always fun to watch rr and his NM- centric pontification. Now we learn that how goes the San Juan and the local irrigation reservoir, so goes the rest of the Colorado basin :rolleyes:

Maybe he can learn us how putting 75,000 acres into irrigation drained the lake :ROFLMAO: While you’re at it, explain where that 35,000 af water right for Navajo Generating Station went (hint, they’re both owned by the same quasi goobermental agency).

All that taxing brain work and not even a nod to the CAP. Tsk tsk.

Bob, I believe it took more than 16 years for Powell to fill. We had to go up “the channel” all thru the ‘60’s, and I don’t remember being able to cut across Wahweap to Warm Creek until the ‘80’s?

At least the Lake Powell Pipeline is still on the books.

Put me down for never seeing it full again.
 
roadrunner said:
Think you missed the part that Powell was filled in part by the river system I described. It's the watershed along the La Plata's and much of the San Juan Mountain range in SW CO. While the current situation is grim, you cannot say for certainty Powell will never again be filled.

Will it ever reach full pool? Maybe not. The last "mega-drought" ended and so will this one. 16 Years to fill? From the bottom up. With back and side canyons. All the while not generating power. All the while the discharge wasn't 10,000 cfs. Maybe the link below might help you understand a little more about Powell.

Lake Powell Water Database

FYI, Navajo is not a little reservoir. You've never been there, and it shows and for a guy that's an expert on Powell, you sure don't know much about it.

Next time read a post in its entirety before spouting off on the first line you disagree with...
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I’ve spent lots of time on the San Juan river and compared to Powell Navajo is little. San Juan river is barely a stream of piss compared to the main source that fills Powell. Lake Powell will not fill up even if you did happen to see a reservoir refill once upon a time. Stay on topic this is about Powell and stay in your lane.

Edit:
You’re an idiot
 
deadibob said:
I’ve spent lots of time on the San Juan river and compared to Powell Navajo is little. San Juan river is barely a stream of piss compared to the main source that fills Powell. Lake Powell will not fill up even if you did happen to see a reservoir refill once upon a time. Stay on topic this is about Powell and stay in your lane.

Edit:
You’re an idiot
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Never said Navajo was comparable in size. What I did say is that even though experts say one thing, the opposite can happen.

Also, bringing up other watersheds that feed Powell is on topic, so try and keep up. The river systems I listed do just that and one is downstream of the dam that dumps directly into the Juan before it hits Powell and after the outtake to NAPI so it most definitely plays a role.

And news flash: the Green only matters depending on what is allowed out of the Gorge.

Edit: I couldn't think as slow as you if I tried...
 
Unpopular opinion: golf should be played on artificial turf. I cannot begin to fathom the amount of water that is used to water golf courses in California alone, let alone the nation as a whole. I don't personally play golf and I certainly don't have anything against the sport itself, but the waste of water is undeniable.
 
Bluehair said:
Careful…..Big Ag is the biggest user of water.
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You’ll be shouted down by the libs if you believe otherwise. They keep right on beating the “agriculture water hog” drum but they’re too f-n stupid to look at how much agricultural ground (Wasatch Front) has been swallowed up by apartments. I’d like to ask them stupid f*****’s where they think all that water went if exploding population isn’t really the problem.
 
Shadow said:
You’ll be shouted down by the libs if you believe otherwise. They keep right on beating the “agriculture water hog” drum but they’re too f-n stupid to look at how much agricultural ground (Wasatch Front) has been swallowed up by apartments. I’d like to ask them stupid f*****’s where they think all that water went if exploding population isn’t really the problem.
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Big Ag is a product of an exploding human population. The solution is in plain sight:

VHEMT

www.vhemt.org www.vhemt.org
 
Watch the video. It sheds lite onto the mindset of so many I am far from a Pier Morgan fan but dammit he nails it here with the mind set that is increasingly common. They want products yet have no clue on the implications to bring these products tithe table. I see the similar relevance to this post.

 
tailchasers said:
Watch the video. It sheds lite onto the mindset of so many I am far from a Pier Morgan fan but dammit he nails it here with the mind set that is increasingly common. They want products yet have no clue on the implications to bring these products tithe table. I see the similar relevance to this post.

Click to expand...

Careful - you're not staying on topic by talking about Powell. I was "chastised" (I'm an idiot :rolleyes:) by a fellow member above for not staying on topic by talking about the Colorado watershed system that feeds Powell.

But I fully agree with your post. (y)
 
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roadrunner said:
Careful - you're not staying on topic by talking about Powell. I was "chastised" (I'm an idiot :rolleyes:) by a fellow member above for not staying on topic by talking about the Colorado watershed system that feeds Powell.

But I fully agree with your post. (y)
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It’s not one “off topic” post; your reputation has been earned by the vast array of topics you are consistently wrong about. You really need to give yourself more credit. (y)
 
deadibob said:
Thank you for one more reason to help make my one and only point here that LAKE POWELL WILL NEVER SEE FULL POOL AGAIN!

I apologize for calling you an idiot.

I’m not apologizing to you but to all the idiots that would be offended by lowering them to your level of intellect.???
Click to expand...

That's not why you called me an idiot, and this write up doesn't prove your point, and it clearly states the little piss of a river in my backyard is part of the very system that feeds Powell. Had you looked at the water data in the links above, you'd have seen that.

Try and keep up...
 
I can only imagine how sad roadrunner is going to be at a few people in this thread for the next 5 years as he works through his feelings on this one.

Good luck, everyone!
 
The San Juan provides around 14% of Powell's water in an average year. So, ya, it's just as important as the other 7 basins feeding the Upper Colorado.

Of course, no one basin is an indication of the total flow into Powell. Some years, one basin does great, but the others suck it up.

The real issue is water usage. Ya, the drought has reduced inflows by around 10-15% on average over a decade, but the usage has simply gone up too much compared to available water. Pretty damn simple.

To "fill'r up"- either supply (think drought easing) goes way up, or demand goes way down, or a reasonable combination of the two.

Good luck with that happening anytime soon...
 
HikeHunt61 said:
The San Juan provides around 14% of Powell's water in an average year. So, ya, it's just as important as the other 7 basins feeding the Upper Colorado.

Of course, no one basin is an indication of the total flow into Powell. Some years, one basin does great, but the others suck it up.

The real issue is water usage. Ya, the drought has reduced inflows by around 10-15% on average over a decade, but the usage has simply gone up too much compared to available water. Pretty damn simple.

To "fill'r up"- either supply (think drought easing) goes way up, or demand goes way down, or a reasonable combination of the two.

Good luck with that happening anytime soon...
Click to expand...

Yes, the CO is made up of small ("pissy") rivers, creeks, and springs with the confluences of the Green, Escalante, Animas, and San Juan. There is a reason the dam was placed downstream of all of these confluences, the Escalante and San Juan being the two final. It catches water from several watersheds. Great planning actually.

To say only the CO matters is a combination of ignorance, naivety, and arrogance for not understanding the true watershed system.

Usage will go down because that is the controllable variable. Sorry, but the warm sections of the country downstream of both Powell and Mead get to not have swimming pools in their backyards anymore or green lawns to kick a soccer ball around on during lean times.

The take-away from this is to be more prudent on usage during drought conditions.
 
UB shuts down any new releases. Good! So to add to the Powell/Mead shortages we have LB deficits in the UB buckets too. This water from these buckets is above and beyond the LB compact negotiated allocation too. Sweet deal for Cali etal to take away from our economies for the sake of their over use, greed, financial, political, and personal gain.

Now the Feds throw $500M to buy and dry ag so more water can be sent to the LB passing straight through Powell/Mead for consumption. Sweet deal here too. Oh wait! That takes away from our UB economies too.

Anyone have any thoughts on how much water is used in the LB to grow crops to be shipped over seas while we do without? How many $'s are being made at your expense? On the lighter side, how many tons of alfalfa is shipped across seas and not necessarily to countries that are USA friendly from Colorado River Basin water?
 
roadrunner said:
That's not why you called me an idiot, and this write up doesn't prove your point, and it clearly states the little piss of a river in my backyard is part of the very system that feeds Powell. Had you looked at the water data in the links above, you'd have seen that.

Try and keep up...
Click to expand...
You are the one who needs to keep up. You aren’t even on the same point you started with. I said “Lake Powell isn’t coming back and that’s all there is to it” and you make a ridiculous comparison about a reservoir going extremely low, your “ESPERTS” saying it will take ten years to refill but low and behold it filled up in one year?

Here it is in your words:

Never say never.

Once upon a time ago in 2005 a reservoir near me was extremely low. The learned "esperts" pontificated that it would take 10 years of consistent and above normal snowpack to bring it back with minimized water usage only for essential operations.

It came back in one winter the following year.

This reservoir is in the Rocky Mtn West.

Never say Never? I’m saying never and I don’t care if The San Juan river doubles in flow. LAKE POWELL WILL NEVER BE EVEN CLOSE TO FULL AGAIN! It wasn’t “ESPERTS”saying it would take 16 years to fill. IT TOOK 16 YEARS TO FILL and that was with no drought slowing the flow, No tree huggers demanding increased spring releases to recreate their sandy beaches and a lot less demand and usage down river. It hasn’t been full pool since 1983 and is only 22% of capacity now. If not another drop of water went downstream, there was no drought, Bessy and the rest of the Basinites pissed in the Green River every day it would still take ten plus years to fill.

This is my last comment on this with you because one time at band camp you saw a reservoir refill in one year so you are obviously an“ESPERT”.
 
deadibob said:
You are the one who needs to keep up. You aren’t even on the same point you started with. I said “Lake Powell isn’t coming back and that’s all there is to it” and you make a ridiculous comparison about a reservoir going extremely low, your “ESPERTS” saying it will take ten years to refill but low and behold it filled up in one year?

Here it is in your words:

Never say never.

Once upon a time ago in 2005 a reservoir near me was extremely low. The learned "esperts" pontificated that it would take 10 years of consistent and above normal snowpack to bring it back with minimized water usage only for essential operations.

It came back in one winter the following year.

This reservoir is in the Rocky Mtn West.

Never say Never? I’m saying never and I don’t care if The San Juan river doubles in flow. LAKE POWELL WILL NEVER BE EVEN CLOSE TO FULL AGAIN! It wasn’t “ESPERTS”saying it would take 16 years to fill. IT TOOK 16 YEARS TO FILL and that was with no drought slowing the flow, No tree huggers demanding increased spring releases to recreate their sandy beaches and a lot less demand and usage down river. It hasn’t been full pool since 1983 and is only 22% of capacity now. If not another drop of water went downstream, there was no drought, Bessy and the rest of the Basinites pissed in the Green River every day it would still take ten plus years to fill.

This is my last comment on this with you because one time at band camp you saw a reservoir refill in one year so you are obviously an“ESPERT”.
Click to expand...

You again? :rolleyes:

You're just mad someone isn't falling all over your words and lapping them up like a young pup...
 
Last edited:
Man you guys need to get out and do some illegal shed hunting together to push through the winter blues…

Don’t worry about Powel. Once the Mississippi River starts flowing better, Powel will be bursting at the seams.
 
BLooDTRaCKeR said:
Man you guys need to get out and do some illegal shed hunting together to push through the winter blues…

Don’t worry about Powel. Once the Mississippi River starts flowing better, Powel will be bursting at the seams.
Click to expand...
It’s not true until RR says so.
 
BLooDTRaCKeR said:
Man you guys need to get out and do some illegal shed hunting together to push through the winter blues…

Don’t worry about Powel. Once the Mississippi River starts flowing better, Powel will be bursting at the seams.
Click to expand...

See, that's the good thing about being in a heathen or "gentile" state. Shed huntin' ain't illegal right now.

Not worried about Powell, we have plenty of water.

deadiKaren must've taken some lessons from Vanilla...
 
Not the way I meant it, but this works as well for how big of a drama queen he gets with anyone that has the gall to disagree with his sensitive feelings.
 
roadrunner said:
Yes, the CO is made up of small ("pissy") rivers, creeks, and springs with the confluences of the Green, Escalante, Animas, and San Juan. There is a reason the dam was placed downstream of all of these confluences, the Escalante and San Juan being the two final. It catches water from several watersheds. Great planning actually.

To say only the CO matters is a combination of ignorance, naivety, and arrogance for not understanding the true watershed system.

Usage will go down because that is the controllable variable. Sorry, but the warm sections of the country downstream of both Powell and Mead get to not have swimming pools in their backyards anymore or green lawns to kick a soccer ball around on during lean times.

The take-away from this is to be more prudent on usage during drought conditions.
Click to expand...
*dirty devil
 
elkassassin said:
They Wanna Steal More Of Our Water!

But Maybe Not Quite Yet!

www.ksl.com

Feds suspend measures that were meant to boost water levels at drought-stricken Lake Powell

Starting Tuesday, the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation will suspend extra water releases from Utah's Flaming Gorge reservoir — emergency measures that had served to help stabilize the plummeting water levels downstream at Lake Powell, the nation's second largest reservoir.
www.ksl.com www.ksl.com
Click to expand...
Pretty good explanation of the latest farmer welfare bill.

We tax everyone to build the lake and infrastructure, charge you for the water when there is some, and tax everyone else to pay you not to use it the rest of the time. Makes sense.
 
elkassassin said:
They Wanna Steal More Of Our Water!

But Maybe Not Quite Yet!

www.ksl.com

Feds suspend measures that were meant to boost water levels at drought-stricken Lake Powell

Starting Tuesday, the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation will suspend extra water releases from Utah's Flaming Gorge reservoir — emergency measures that had served to help stabilize the plummeting water levels downstream at Lake Powell, the nation's second largest reservoir.
www.ksl.com www.ksl.com
Click to expand...

Don't starve the Kali's or they'll keep moving up to Happy Valley!!
 
tailchasers said:
It's part of their green deal. When I participate in the conversations about Powell reservoir levels 'minimum power pool' is near the top of priorities. Not protection of a compact call. They loose Powell hydropower they will need to fire up 'dirty fossil fuel' power plant. They will run Powell at minimum to pressure and guilt trip the un or under informed water users upstream to feed the California natural resource consumptive pig.

View attachment 103838
Click to expand...
Why is this image so wildly out of scale? The distance from full pool to target elevation is almost the same as that of full pool to dead pool but the appearance makes the upper distance look almost triple. What's the point of the propaganda?
 
The fact is this- renewable power is only viable if you have a baseload of power to cover the times when the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing. If the hydro power isn't there, gas is burned. That gas comes from the Rockies meaning more jobs for the good guys. Regardless of whether California likes it or not, the drought is actually boosting production and storage facilities across the west. I say drain em all and Drill baby Drill!
 
Muleyears said:
The fact is this- renewable power is only viable if you have a baseload of power to cover the times when the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing. If the hydro power isn't there, gas is burned. That gas comes from the Rockies meaning more jobs for the good guys. Regardless of whether California likes it or not, the drought is actually boosting production and storage facilities across the west. I say drain em all and Drill baby Drill!
Click to expand...
You know they use it to store irrigation water, right? I suppose you guy’s will spray brine on the fields for free too.(y)
 
Oh yeah, well MY reservoir has drained and filled completely TWICE in the last 4 years.

Nanner nanner boo boo.?
 
roadrunner said:
Oh the agony of it all. The 10th wettest in UT was the same year my "little band camp" reservoir that is in the CO river watershed replenished in one spring runoff instead of 10.

9th Wettest Winter
Click to expand...
And of course you wouldn’t understand how you just defeated your own argument by proving that YOUR robust watershed isn’t an accurate indicator of the Powell watershed as a whole.

Well done :ROFLMAO: ?
 
I still can’t even figure out what roadrunner is arguing.

Is he saying Powell is going to fill up this year? Or is he just throwing crap out there with no meaning to be a tool?
 
Vanilla said:
I still can’t even figure out what roadrunner is arguing.

Is he saying Powell is going to fill up this year? Or is he just throwing crap out there with no meaning to be a tool?
Click to expand...
He’s saying that Navajo lake will fill up so IT’S ok. Just don’t ask what “it” is.

The arguments always start out as a non-sequitur challenge to someone else’s opinion, waffle thru many circuitous and dubious defenses, finallly ending at absurdity. Then for the crowning Karen achievement, blocking those who dare to question his opinion.

All of the reasons he’s one of my favorite posters.:)

BTW Gods cows are standing over my flat rock at the moment.
 
Bluehair said:
The arguments always start out as a non-sequitur challenge to someone else’s opinion, waffle thru many circuitous and dubious defenses, finallly ending at absurdity. Then for the crowning Karen achievement, blocking those who dare to question his opinion.
Click to expand...

The best part of this paragraph is you used all those big words and then wrote “thru.” Boss move, Bluehair. Boss move.

Oh, and it was very accurate too.
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
Why is this image so wildly out of scale? The distance from full pool to target elevation is almost the same as that of full pool to dead pool but the appearance makes the upper distance look almost triple. What's the point of the propaganda?
Click to expand...

I can't say for sure the reason, but maybe the difference in scale is to show how much more water that extra elevation brings in due to the fact it is filling in alot more surface area the higher/deeper the lake gets.

Just speculation on my part as I really don't know. But it's safe to say the 100+ feet at the top will have vastly more water that the 100+ feet at dead pool.
 
Bluehair said:
It’s always fun to watch rr and his NM- centric pontification. Now we learn that how goes the San Juan and the local irrigation reservoir, so goes the rest of the Colorado basin :rolleyes:

Maybe he can learn us how putting 75,000 acres into irrigation drained the lake :ROFLMAO: While you’re at it, explain where that 35,000 af water right for Navajo Generating Station went (hint, they’re both owned by the same quasi goobermental agency).

All that taxing brain work and not even a nod to the CAP. Tsk tsk.

Bob, I believe it took more than 16 years for Powell to fill. We had to go up “the channel” all thru the ‘60’s, and I don’t remember being able to cut across Wahweap to Warm Creek until the ‘80’s?

At least the Lake Powell Pipeline is still on the books.
Click to expand...
Navajo Generating Station did in fact use around 35K AF and had the contract to use 50K. That water is owned by the state of Arizona and not by SRP. I worked at Navajo Station for many years (36) and was there when we closed it down. I am pretty familier with that water situation. The Navajo Nation believes that water belongs to them and has plans to pump it to the western part of the NN using the pumping station the plant used near Antelope point.
I don't believe anyone is using it currently but I could be wrong about that. I am fairly certain that SRP is no longer using it though.
I don't see lake Powell getting to full pool again in my lifetime. But then again I am pretty old.
Bluehair said:
Put me down for never seeing it full again.
Click to expand...
 

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