Montana buyers remorse: hate to say I told you so

txhunter58

txhunter58

Long Time Member
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In the discussions on Montana's price increase last year, I predicted buyers remorse would kick in this year. Namely, people pay the high prices, go to Montana, and 75-80% come home without an animal. Some may have even seen more wolf tracks than elk tracks. Then they get to thinking about how much they paid for low percentage success and decided to hold on to their money this year.

My gosh, the season is about to start and they still have hundreds/thousands of tags left. Here is the link that shows how many: http://fwp.mt.gov/ And they even took out a full page ad in Bugle magazine this month! "Please buy our licenses".

Think they will get the message that they have jacked the price up too high?? Probably not. Prob raise it more to make up the difference. That is the democrat way of thinking, hopefully there are a few republicans up there.

I have hunted the great state of Montana 3 times and have been successful each time (1 bear and 2 elk), but won't hunt again at those prices. For those that do, good luck. Hope you get a big-un.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
No remorse needed. Neither is a return trip. Piss-pore hunters blame wolves. What the HELL do you non-residents want? mtmuley
 
Hey, I am 100% sucess in 3 DIY hunts! Enjoyed every minute of hunting your great state.

I realize many resident hunters would be glad if we all stayed home (not so the people we spend money with though). What the HELL do you want: more of us to stay away? Good news, you are getting your wish!

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
No where did I state I wanted NR's to stay away.YOU seem dissatisfied, so why return? Sorry things aren't as you would like them to be. If you and others believe the wolf hype, well too bad. Things were so good here in Montana for so long regarding NR's, guess maybe it's a shock that things have changed. One things for sure, they ain't gonna change back. Great hunting is still here. I don't know how we compare in cost to other states, but I guess we priced everybody out. I apologize for my first post, but the bitching gets old. mtmuley
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-28-12 AT 05:49PM (MST)[p]Just went to the Montana Fish & Wildlife website to check pricing for tags. $789 for an Elk combo license,wow!
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-28-12 AT 06:28PM (MST)[p]

Don't mean to sound bitchy or whiney, just hoping to make a difference and possibly get things changed. That is what is good about the internet, you can reach lots of people and SOMETIMES even make a change.

Gonna write a letter to the editor of bugle too since they printed a full page ad for them. Get enough support and who knows

I know the wolves haven't eaten all your elk, but in some areas they have done a good job of it. How many tags did they issue this year for the northern herd that migrates out of Yellowstone?

This has nothing to do with doging your or your great state. I have loved every minute I spent there. Made some good friends there too who have come hunting on my place in Texas.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
We will see what happens after this year. I've been anticipating an increase in our resident prices for awhile now. That may be how some of the revenue is made up. mtmuley
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-28-12 AT 08:45PM (MST)[p]>No remorse needed. Neither is a
>return trip. Piss-pore hunters blame
>wolves. What the HELL do
>you non-residents want? mtmuley



I would like the guys on here from MT to not be such @ssholes. One thing that I really enjoy about hunting MT is how nice the residents are. Why doesn't this site have more of the good guys from MT on here? Instead we have the "my familes lived in MT for 100 years" so that means it's ok for me to be a big, fat, nasty, stinky, know it all @sshole.

"Go hunt for meat at Walmart."
 
The whole thread considered, I would dissagree. I would bet if you or I met Mtmuley in person, we would get along well. Lots of frustration on both sides of the isle. Internet brings out the best/worst of us all. Being passionate about this sport is what it is all about, and there are always two sides to a story.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
The funny thing, WY is now looking at doing the same. They will get the same response. 2 things will happen, fewer NR will hunt MT. Both the local businesses will see a down turn in revenue as will local governments etc. The state will probably end up seeing a huge down turn in Revenue directly from tags and as a result will end up raising resident prices. In all honesty NR hunters are great for the state, they are good for the business and more importantly they are vital to preserving our ability to hunt. Look at CA, when in the last 15 years have you heard a person actually say "I am heading to CA to hunt for the week! I am so excited I just can't wait!" You don't because with out the NR money and support, you have no real fiscal incentive to support hunting. If there is no value to the general public then hunters loose.

So raise your NR tag cost. Alienate your highest paying customers and see what happens. As much as I hate to say the economy and profit will help keep hunting alive.

In MTs case, the only hope they have is getting a few last minute hunters who ran out of other options. In the meantime I will not be paying those high prices anytime soon. As for WY they too are heading towards disaster. Who raise the prices in the middle of some o the highest unemployment rates, declining wages, etc. Bad business and as a result we all loose from a decline in hunters, revenue, etc...
 
I don't think Wyo will see the same results. Too many southern neighbors clamoring for tags. They'll sell the tags. People don't hunt some of these states because the product doesn't fit the price (Muleys). Won't be the case in Wyo. Maybe less applicants but, still plenty to take the tags at the elevated prices. Every major trailhead from Afton to Alpine will still be jammed with red arch license plates.
 
Funny, that is the exact same thing they were saying about Montana last year.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
tag, I'm really not an A-hole. I get worked up some when guys ##### about the cost and our "lack" of game. I realize hunting for NR's is expensive here, but it's expensive in all the Western states. I've been expecting a price increase for us residents for a long time, and I think it's needed. When it happens, there will be a huge uproar among Montana hunters. That scenario is about the only way I see NR pricing going down. mtmuley
 
I'm pretty sure no one has said, "I'm going to Montana for it's good muledeer hunting." If they did, they were mistaken. Like I said, the product doesn't fit the price.
 
These game depts [soon to be Wildlife dept here is Ca- sic] have to generate income somehow. Its an easy call to balance their budgets on Non res $$. Politically having non residents supplement the state is a win win- and unfortunately everything is politics. I wish it werent so with wildlife.

Tx is getting the word to the politicos....and he has my support.


If we all spent a little time putting pressure on these worthless politicians we might have a better government [end of my rant!]

You want to hunt a state where the residents actually realize that non res is a good thing [at 20x license costs!] go to NM. All of the resident bowhunters I recently met in NM were top notch nice folks- Kudos NM!
 
I look for value. How rewarding is the experience even if never get a shot opportunityand what is the cost in time and money to have that experience?

Montana does not make the top 3 for elk or deer. A long season does not mean much for a hunter that can only be on the ground a few days which is the case for most non-residents.

Hunting tag revenue is a "cash cow" for states. Fewer big game hunters overall in this country means you can not rely on selling more tags. The answer for staztes is they are increasing tag costs faster than inflation then milking the application game by jacking up bonus point fees/application fees/ must buy a hunting license to apply.

This reduces non-resident participation in the application game and lowers number of non-resident hunters but states usually make more money if they can offer a quality hunting experience once you get a tag in hand.

A Montana bighorn tag has a lot of value. A Montana elk tag does not. A Montana deer tag does not. A Wyoming elk tag does. A Wyoming deer tag does not. A New Mexico pronghorn tag does. A Colorado elk tag does.

As fees go up, states like California and Idaho make little sense for the chance will get a tag and then will have a shot opportunity. Montana now makes less sense and Wyoming will soon be there with the upcoming fee increases.

New Mexico all but told DYI non-residents to go pound sand.

No hard feelings. I still go on 2-4 hunts a year. I still spend money. Just not in some states anymore.
 
I guess "value" is relative. The guys holding the tags on the half dozen bulls that scored from 370 up to 390 (these are bulls I know of) in the small valley I call home that hit the dirt so far probably would argue. (the wolves forgot to eat em I guess) Also, what is "good" mule deer hunting. A 180 plus around every tree? No state has that. A 170 class buck isn't out of the question here on a general draw tag if a guy works at it. Our limited units have world class deer. I value a 170 buck, although I may not choose to tag it. Here we go again. What the HELL do you NR's want? Outdoors, I say you are full of crap. If you can't have a good experience here in Montana, "even with no shot opportunity", the "experience" isn't all you "value". mtmuley
 
I think some states have jumped the gun on tag costs. If they were a bit smarter, they'd hire some finance and economics folks to survey and analyze the data to detemine what price increases will be tolerated by non resi's. In Wyoming, demand significantly outstrips supply. What they need to do is get the non resi prices adjusted up to where demand just exceeds supply. Then you've maximized revenues. Seems pretty simple and I'm not sure why some of these states like Idaho and Montana don't put a bit more into research...
 
Montana is huge. I know because I drive the majority of it with my work car. I have lived here for 6 years now. There are places that hold deer. There are also vast tracks of land that do not hold deer that should. I think that the hunting dates need to be arranged in order to create more demand. They could get more nr guys to pay the $500+ for a deer tag if guys thought they could get a shot at a 170+ buck if they worked hard enough. Obviously that is not the case nor the mindset, otherwise you would not see the amount of tags that are currently still available. If it was truly a great "experience" the ones who have been here recently would all be back and bring thier buddys, too.

Trust me, guys will stand around for hours freezing thier butts off in front of a night club if they new there were lots of hot chicks inside. Same goes for hunting. How many guys are in line for a Colorado 3rd or 4th season tag who don't live there?

Move the general hunt out of the rut so more bucks make it past 21/2 years old. Have a rut hunt that is either archery only or limited draw. Do something. This "that's the way it's gotta be because that's the way it's always been" mindset is obviously not working, otherwise fwp would not be taking out an ad in bugle magazine. Have you ever seen Colorado post an ad that says that? No. Most hunters do thier homework and will wait for something they see is worth waiting for.


Heck, look at OYOA. Randy flies into a chunk of blm with a helicopter here in mt that is surrounded by private to hunt elk. Does he fly into a chunk of blm in Colorado? He just starts walking from his truck. I'm sure he could do that in mt, but I'm just sayin.

Mt just needs to get the deer numbers up. Have people talk about how many they see, and then people will come. Montana is awesome. It would just be "awesomer" with more game within the boundaries.


"That's a special feeling, Lloyd"
 
Actually, with their last price increase, Colorado lost 30,000 hunters and they are advetizing on TV for hunters.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
All I know is that I had family and friends come up over the past few years from Wyoming and Utah to hunt deer. Since the increase: no takers.

"That's a special feeling, Lloyd"
 
In the end, the game and fish departments will not be able to continue to run with the majority of their budgets funded out of hunting and fishing tags.

I can't remember the last time I heard a local (Wyoming) make a negative comment about non resident hunters and must of us are glad to help the odd non resident hunter out if needed. The prices are high enough. Some idiot posted on another thread that Wyoming residents have had it too good for too long and their fees need to go up. We do have it good. Exceptionally good, but there are a large class of hunters out there that are still scraping all they can to afford resident tags as well. If you have the time and the money to afford hunts in more than one state each year, then you are probably not really representative of hunters in general. Don't alienate the masses. We are gradually moving toward hunting as an elitist sport with only those who have the dough enjoying the sport. Those who say people will afford it if it is a priority will sing a different tune when it becomes more than they can afford in a few years as well...
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-30-12 AT 11:51AM (MST)[p]None of you will be missed...one less out of state plate parked at our favorite spots is a in my book.
 
Hey 7thgen, reffer to post #10. He was talking about posts from guys like you. People are trying to have a discussion, then you come out from left field and solidify thier assumptions.


"That's a special feeling, Lloyd"
 
7thgen,
If you live in Wyoming and can't find a spot away from the guys that only get one week a year to hunt your state, you have bigger problems than the ones being addressed on this post. Thank you very much for making the rest of us look a little more intelligent though.

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free... it expects what never has and never will be." -Thomas Jefferson
 
Everything has a price/value,different to different people. But supply and demand holds in most things. No way can anyone think raising prices automatically results in more total net profit. Price raises on anything discressionary may result in reduced sales. I bet $4 a gallon gas and a poor economy play into reduced nonresident sales too. Just things game departments have to think about in revenue generation....

As far as value.... A bud just spent almost $500 for 4 adult and two child reduced price military discount tickets just to walk in thr gates of the Magic Kingdom once! That makes the most overpriced hunting license seem cheap.....:)
 
Post 28 X 1000!

If I as a resident couldn't find a place or animals to hunt that weren't crowded by people who have so little time to find the same place or animals I think I would have to pack it in.

Bill

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of
ignorance, and the gospel of envy.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've
stood up for something, sometime in your life.

- Winston Churchill
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-01-12 AT 09:14AM (MST)[p]The question was asked what do you non-residents expect? Well I'm a non-resident everywhere and I just got back from an out of state hunt.

I drove about 3000 miles in a week and with gas prices I spent around $800 and gas just to get there and get back for a week. The tag i bought was over the counter and $270.

For that I expect to see a good amount of animals. Maybe not a trophy class one, but to know if I hunt hard enough that I can find one somewhere.

As far as cost, residents are able to hunt WITHOUT burning vacation mostly. And more effectively, scout on the weekends, holidays etc. For most of us non-residents to travel, we have to burn vacation time. when you only get 2-4 weeks a year off from your job and choose to spend them traveling out west to hunt then YES you are willing to spend some good money to enjoy your vacation.

However, you are not willing to spend that money if its not enjoyable. The value proposition is right on, I'll spend good money for good hunts, that's why we all apply for LE hunts, they have a better expecation of being good. I did not enjoy my Colorado OTC elk hunt last year, way too many hunters, not enough animals. I did enjoy my archery deer hunt in NM in unit 36 last year. I didn't see a ton of deer, but I ran into very few hunters as well. I had one opportunity at a decent deer in 8 days of hunting/scouting. I tagged in neither, would do one again, not the other.

So my point is, price is not a problem for the non-residents, its the quality of the experience. As a resident, ask yourself if you'd be willing to go on your hunts in your home state if you had to pay the non-resident price tag you and you will begin to understand the other side. If you want to charge more and more for non-resident tags, the quality of the experience needs to be commensurate with the cost or you will get no repeat business.
 
I assume you're from Texas by your username. If so, what is access like down there? Just out of curiousity what does a trespass fee or cost of paying an outfitter to sit in a box blind with a person cost in Texas? Is it a fee per day, or a yearly fee? What does a private lease cost per year down there? It it comparible to a nonresident tag in Montana which for $944 you get to fish, hunt upland game birds, hunt elk and either a mule deer or whitetail buck, the entire season if you so choose, for free?

I don't, to me it seems like a pretty good deal when you put it in perspective.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-01-12 AT 11:46AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-01-12 AT 11:46?AM (MST)

Texas is pretty much 98% private land. No one does access fees, you have to lease the property for the entire season if you want to hunt or book a hunt with an outfitter. Decent season leases start at about $2000 a gun and go up from there. Pretty standard to be around 100 acres per gun, so you will most likely be on a ranch with other guns, who you may or may not know. That is for whitetails, hogs and turkeys.

Most outfitters for marginal free range hunts start I'd guess around $1500 and run up from there to sky's the limit like $20k for a monster on the king ranch (one of the largest private ranches in the country).

Our TAGS are pretty cheap though, $300 for non resident deer, I don't even know what the resident one is, but I pay like $85 a year for all my hunting/fishing/stamps/fed waterfowl also. With my license I automatically get 5 whitetail tags, 2 mule deer tags and 4 turkey tags. I think non-res is same, but not 100% on that.

So, yes absolutely, on a price point basis only that's correct. The difference is it worth it and that depends on the amount and quality of game, we have millions of deer here in Texas. The last lease I was on a few years ago you would see game of some sort every time you moved or sat in a stand.

I'm not saying anything either here nor there about montana, just saying if you want to charge non-residents a bunch of money offer a good product and you can get away with it. Offer a sub par product at an ultra premium price and they will stop coming.
 
Just my thoughts:
I ALWAYS have a quality experience when I'm in the field and I can stay at home and use the time and money to have that "quality" experience.

So.... when I hunt other States it IS about the QUALITY and QUANTITY OF ANIMALS!

If the animal quantity and quality isn't sufficient to satisfy ME then I'm welcome to pass on that State and stay home or go elsewhere. That's basic economics laced with my opinion.
Several States have priced ME out of their market because the value isn't there for ME.

Bless us all but especially ME,
Zeke
 
I'm getting the feeling that non-residents, no matter the state they hunt won't be satisfied. Every body that hunts anywhere will have a complaint. Sorry some of you don't feel Montana has value. I've posted that I am willing to absorb a cost increase as a resident if the sale of NR licenses warrant it. What state do all you unsatisfied guys plan to hunt? mtmuley
 
>I'm getting the feeling that non-residents,
>no matter the state they
>hunt won't be satisfied. Every
>body that hunts anywhere will
>have a complaint. Sorry some
>of you don't feel Montana
>has value. I've posted that
>I am willing to absorb
>a cost increase as a
>resident if the sale of
>NR licenses warrant it. What
>state do all you unsatisfied
>guys plan to hunt? mtmuley
>


One of the other posters said it correctly. I had three tags in Wyoming this year as a non resident, well over $1300 in tags alone. I filled two of them, the third went unfilled but not for lack of trying. I left the state satisfied, grateful for the opportunity to hunt wide open spaces and beautiful country, see game, and harvest two animals. I did not hunt elk, not worth it for me in Wyoming.

The thing about Montana is they currently have nothing that is top shelf other than scenery. Scenery is good once but it won't bring you back. Their elk, mule deer, and antelope are not top shelf but they are asking top shelf prices.

I will also agree Montana has some of the most unfriendly folks to non-residents, if they want to be self sufficient and discourage non-resi's from hunting that is their choice, I can see the negatives with non-resi's as well. If that is how they want to roll though they will have to live with the results. Higher prices for residents, much higher, to support their current system. If resi's are OK with that then all is well.
 
>I'm getting the feeling that non-residents,
>no matter the state they
>hunt won't be satisfied. Every
>body that hunts anywhere will
>have a complaint. Sorry some
>of you don't feel Montana
>has value. I've posted that
>I am willing to absorb
>a cost increase as a
>resident if the sale of
>NR licenses warrant it. What
>state do all you unsatisfied
>guys plan to hunt? mtmuley
>
NR hunts 2012
CO dyi ewe sheep tag
NV outfitter draw mule deer tag
NM dyi Coues deer tag

Both deer tags are in top units for quality. The ewe tag was 2nd choice so still have sheep points.
 
I honestly would hunt MT at today's price had I not spent my fun funds for this year on other hunts. I honestly think being able to wait till later is worth the extra cost and personally like that about the current price. It is nice to be able to sort out what you drew in other states and still go hunting failing drawing the primo stuff. I do have some extra vacation as I tagged early, but will spend it hunting deer locally because I broke my bank this year. I don't think the price increase in MT alone would affect that, but combine that with the tag prices I paid, gas I bought, taxidermy I'm committed to..... Gouging nonresidents beyond what the market will bear just are not a way for game departments to solve budget problems... :)
 
I agree, Montana pry should have not raised the fees esp right now when the economy is in the tiolet. However, in my opinion, Montana is a great state to hunt in. I am a resident of Montana and hunt as a non resident in many other states over the years. Elk and deer are all over if your willing to place alittle work into the hunt. Some nice quality too. Some of the residents are knuckle heads I do agree, however, no more than any other state. I can say the same as some of the non residents coming here. Most are good folks and respectful, but some are knuckle heads too. In short, if I lived elsewhere, I would come to Montana as its a great state to hunt in. Assuming whats happening in the world today I still have a job to pay for it.
 
I have to agree that Montana doesn't own the market on knuckleheads. I think they're evenly dispersed throughout the entire country.

Years ago I hunted Montana for about a dozen years in a row for bear, deer or antelope. I've never hunted elk in the Big Sky....yet. I've always had a wondeful experience while in Montana.

Simply based on time and economic reasons I've not been there for many years but it's still a great State with lots of great people.

From my perspective, you can pass on a few out of State hunts, over a few years, and go to Alaska or Canada and have a hunt of a lifetime. You might not kill as many elk and deer but you'll kill more sheep, goat, moose and caribou.

Zeke
 
I think alot of people are forgetting the beating the big game herds took in the winter of 2010 when there was 100 inches plus of snow on the prairie's of Eastern Montana. We can't control the weather. Pronghorn's and mule deer had huge winter kills and won't rebound for a while.

In addition we had a ton of NR who used to come out here because they could take 6 does plus their A tag. Those deer are no longer there.

Residents need to pay more and that is a fact but with the end of the variable priced Outfitter Sponsored tags and everyone on equal footing in the draw, it has become a 100% guarantee draw for the Elk/Deer Combo tag.

I host NR hunters every year, they always enjoy themselves some fill their tags, other just want to chase pheasants and ducks. Haven't heard one of them gripe about the cost of the tag, every one of them is shocked at the numbers they used to see before the bad winter kill compared to now.

I guess everyone has a price point that makes hunting worth it to them or not. When I hunted Ducks in Texas, I paid more than the price of a Montana tag just to access the property we hunted and gladly did it in order to get a few ducks for the wall in full plumage.

Given all the money we spend on hunting equipment, transportation, etc, etc usually the tag is the cheapest part.

Nemont
 
"I guess everyone has a price point that makes hunting worth it to them or not"

NO! Everyone has a price point at which they feel hunting is worth it to them IN A PARTICULAR STATE! Hunters will always hunt, PERIOD. They'll just stay in their State or go somewhere else.

Zeke
 
Fair enough, if you don't want to hunt Montana because of the price then you are free to exercise that right. I have no problem with you keeping your wallet closed because Montana raised NR prices. I also don't have a problem with the guys who still come here.

Everyone has a price point that they deem worth to go on a hunt, do you like that better?

If what hunters want to do is hunt and can find alternative better hunting then why do you care if Montana prices itself out of the running? From what I am reading the hunting sucks here and isn't worth it. If the prices were lower would you hunt here even if the hunting sucks?

Nemont
 
I can only answer your questions from my perspective.

Yes, that's a better comment because most hunters will still hunt somewhere every year.

I care whenever any State raises NR fees because it prices SOME people, who love to hunt as a NR, out of the market. Everyone has a budget. Other States get the big idea to raise prices and pretty soon every hunter is struggling to hunt as a NR and the residents will need to cover ALL the financial burden for game management.

I never said Montana hunting was bad AT ALL. I still have some of my fondest memories of Montana trips. There may or may not be better values out there. Everyone must decide for themselves.

No, If hunting sucked I'd not hunt there at bargain prices. Remember, I never said Montana hunting sucked. The opposite is true yet it still come back to price v value.

Thanks for the civil discussion!
Zeke
 
I want our state to put more burden on the resident hunters because that would probably get hunters more active in our policy making process and in the political arena.

What would make Montana a better price vs value for NR hunters and would keep resident hunters happy? Again we can't control the weather and the price for tags is set by the legislature every two years so that isn't going to change for this next season.

As it is now the elk/deer combo is 100% guaranteed and if you don't draw you almost always can pick up a surplus tag. LE remains a tough thing for NR hunters especially in the sheep, goat and moose drawing but they are tough for residents as well.

As for the economic impact of hunters alot of what hunters would have spent is being spent now by oilfield workers so fewer hunters isn't really affecting the small towns, especially in Eastern and Central Montana.

Nemont
 

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