moral vs legal

caelkhnter · Oct 24, 2003

In reading the post by oldoregon I note the issue of legal vs moral comes up. I agree that the law is there for a reason and that it is usually black and white. I also agree with the notion that you should always follow the law. However there are times when you are faced with a dilema with what the morally correct thing to do is.

For example lets say you are out hunting the monster muley and after a 3-4 hour hike into a roadless area you come upon a small buck that is severely wounded. Lets say his front legs are broken off at the knees, apparently from a bad effort of jumping a fence. You know that you would never take this buck for yourself becasue it is not the trophy you are looking for. Lets say he tries to get up and get away when you approach only to fall to the ground in exhaustion. It is clear to you this buck will not survive and most likely will be sitting there until a predator comes along. You would like to put it out of its missery. But the law says that would be illegal. So what do you do? Just walk away and let the guy suffer? That's what the blak letter of the law tells you to do. Like I said I agree with the notion that the law is there, black and white, no grey issue here, to be followed but gee this seems like following the law leads to a morally bad result. What do you think?

BuckSnort · Oct 24, 2003

I wouldn't hesitate of putting it out of it's misery.I have done it before a few times with deer that have been hit by cars.Even though it may not be illegal it's still the right thing to do in my opinion.A law officer would have to be a real jerk to give me a citation for something like that.

ctmuley · Oct 24, 2003

I would put the buck out of misery, and then put my tag on it.

Bucksnort,
You may be doing what you think is right, but you are breaking the law. It is not you place to shoot these animals, call the fish and game, or the sherriffs, they will come out and take care of it.

txhunter58 · Oct 24, 2003

Count me in as a lawbreaker, although I would try to just cut its throat if I could without danger to myself. But I wouldn't hesitate to shoot it. If it appeared that it was a recent injury and the deer was edible, I would tag it. However, if not, I would put it out of its misery and walk away without a second thought. Nor would I hesitate if my son/daughter was there because IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. That deer shouldn't have to suffer any longer. How long to walk those 3 hours out and get an officer to go back with you? 6 hours, 24 hours? Why wait. It is "the law" is not a good enough answer to me. If it is to you, so be it.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

fisrtcoueswas80inches · Oct 24, 2003

i to would try to slit its throat because it is the moral thing to do. if this deer is hurt so bad and there is no chance forthe deer to survive it is in no doubt in my mind, the right thing to do with out a second guess
casey

kingfish · Oct 24, 2003

Here I go again..... I told this story a couple years ago and got crucified for it but I still believe I did the right thing,,, I was hunting in Wyoming one year and came across a doe with a broken shoulder...Every time she tried to run her left front leg would rotate all the way around and hit her in the back of the head!!!. It was horrible to watch....I had to sit down and decide what to do....I could not bare the thought of that pretty little doe being eaten alive by coyotes so I did what I would expect any decent "law abiding" hunter would do, I SHOT HER!!!!. I did NOT have a doe tag so I just said a prayer and walked away. Had it been a buck I would have done the same thing AND tagged it....I guess we all have to decide what's moral because it sure wasn't legal.....

usa · Oct 24, 2003

Did the same thing to a doe that had her bottom jaw shot off, never thought twice about it, remember even the police do NOT follow the letter of the law, they use discrectionary(sp) enforcement

ORsouthpaw · Oct 24, 2003

The right thing to do is continue on your way and let nature take it's course Right? That's what Fish & Game people say as well as most Law agencies. Now about whether or not it's moral. I believe that the right thing to do is to end the animals suffering. I have never been in that situation but I would not have problem knowing that I relieved the animals suffering buy ending it's life quickly. If you hit a deer with your truck and it's laying there suffering is it any different then if you discover a mortally wounded animal 6 miles from the road? Not in my mind.

muleyqueen · Oct 24, 2003

Kingfish, I was faced with EXACTLY the same situation this season and my actions were in line with yours. A doe was hit by a car, obviously mortally wounded but not dead yet, and was flopping all over the place. I shot her to put her down. I have no doe tag. I attempted to call the law after it was over, but couldn't get anyone to respond. I was willing to give up my buck tag or pay the fine if need be but no warden came. I take great satification in knowing that I DID THE RIGHT THING. You have to understand, I'm a vet and I put animals down everyday!!!!!!!!! I would do it again if in the same situation.

texhunter · Oct 24, 2003

If you say let nature take it's course then just call me nature. I would put the animal out of it's misery. If I got fined for doing that then that officer is chickensh*t. They should be worried about the people that shoot animals illegaly for their own advantage and not the good hearted citizen doing the animal a favor.

BOHNTR · Oct 24, 2003

Shoot and tag him!

This exact scenario happened to me in 1996 in Northern Arizona. I was hunting only monster bucks, coming close to several on a daily basis. One evening in my treestand, I heard a truck stop nearby.

It was obvious the occupants had shot and hit a buck from the road and began looking for it. After 5 minutes, they gave up and drove off. About 20 minutes later a small forked horn buck limped by. His front leg was completely broken at the elbow and another arrow sticking out his ham. He was critically wounded and was obviously NOT going to make it through the winter. As he limped by, I didn't think twice and finsished him with an arrow and tagged him.

I was VERY mad that someone had arrowed this buck and that I had to finish him. Additionally, I felt I just "wasted" my tag on an "inferior" animal when I hunting trophy bucks. This attitude of mine bothered me and I began to question why I REALLY hunt.

I came to realize that I should be proud to have shot that little buck. Now those who know me know I just don't shoot any buck that comes into arrow range. But my hunting partner said it best when he asked, "Would you still be mad if it had been a 30" buck limping by instead of this forkie?" That day got me back on track on why I hunt and why it's so important to teach my kids these values so they're passed on.

I guess my point is, when we let our own agendas and egos detour us from what is right, we will ALL lose eventually. Sorry for the rambling and preaching, guess this topic falls close to home for me.

BOHNTR )))------------->

ktc · Oct 24, 2003

Maybe I am putting my skin on the line here. Oldoregon states he uses a light to put a wounded deer out of its misery with a tag. Clearly he broke the law by using a light. He was reminded of this several times over.

Now, in this thread, I have heard several admissions to illegal kills by law. It was the right thing to do was the justification. All are in agreement.

My take is this. ##### happens. If confronted with a situation out in the field, do what you got to do. Make the best of it and move on. MonsterMuleys morale blessing is not necessary. We can all weigh right from wrong. Somethings can just go unsaid.

Oldoregon, if you have to use a light to finish the job don't come on here and tell everyone. Do what is necessary and forget about it. If you come upon a fatally wounded animal, again, do what is necessary and forget about it.

BUGLELK · Oct 24, 2003

Well said ktc!

BCBOY · Oct 24, 2003

This post reminds me of a time I put down a bull moose that had been hit by a semi. His backend was realy messed up and he was trying to get up when I passed him on the highway while I was driving to work. Since it was hunting season, I had the rifle in the truck, so I did a uturn and pulled over on the side of the road. I got out, loaded my rifle while traffic was whizzing by. I crossed the road and walked up to him and shot him in the back of the head to end his suffering. I then walked back across the highway and got back in my truck, did another uturn and started back on my way to work. A couple kms down the road I see a cop speeding past me heading for the moose. I'm like, "Sh#t, some motorist reported me. I guess I'll go face the music." I pull over, do yet another uturn and head back towards the moose. Just as I pull up, I see the cop get out of his car and start pumping bullets into the moose. I roll down the window and say, "Sir, I just shot him in the head, I think he's dead." He looks at me and says, "Well he's still twitchin'" and he then pumps a couple more into him. Once he was done, I asked him if it was okay to do what I did. His reply, "You've got to do what you've got to do. No ones going to fault you for doing the right thing."

MattB · Oct 26, 2003

This post reminds me of my hunting season a couple years ago. I had been hunting the kamloops area of BC every weekend. I had passed on a few small bucks, and missed a few decent ones by the time november rolled around. November in BC in my hunting area is a 4 point or better season for mule deer. I headed out one weekend, and was walking a ridge in the morning. I carry an antler to rake trees as i go to try and sound like a deer while i walk. Well, i stopped and started raking a tree, then i looked all around me and noticed a buck bedded and staring at me about 50 yards away. I look at him, he wasnt big just a 3x2. I look at him a little closer, and see a huge hole in his side. I figure that maybe someone had shot him, and he died. So i start walking towards him, he doesnt move at all. So i close the distance to about 5-10 yards, when he finally turns his head and looks at me. I can see the hole in his side, and it looks pretty bad. But being only a 4 point or better season, i didnt think i should shoot him. So i left him, and turned around, and he got up and ran off. I felt bad about leaving an animal a slow painful death, but maybe some of these deer would survive? Later in this season, i filled my tag on a 4 point in almost the same spot as i saw this one. Then when i was hunting whitetails i also encountered another injured 3 point muley, i had to let that one suffer as well.
It isnt easy turning your back and not putting an animal out of its misery, but sometimes its what you have to do.

nk · Oct 26, 2003

couldnt resist replying. where is the challenge! isn't hunting about the challenge and hard work of bagging a trophy, then celebrating by sticking meat in your freezer, and telling the story to a bunch of buddies.i can hear it now"yea i spotted that one at 30,000 ft. hell of spot" cmon legal or not it takes the hunting out of hunting. i would rather work for a fork horn than spot a monster from a plane 24 hours before the hunt and walk to the area i know he could be. for me its about being apart of the environment and when your in a plane, helicopter, ultralight, or whatever its not the same.
nk

nk · Oct 26, 2003

previous post meant for spotting with planes

caelkhnter · Oct 26, 2003

The responses to this post illustrate one of the best things about this forum. Thankfully there were no personal attacks against those who made an effort to express their opinion. In addition I think I can take something positive away from the posts that have been made.

I think the dilema in my mind is how to be legal and do the morally correct thing at the same time. The problem stems from my stated desire not to take a small buck and to hold out for the monster. I think bowhunter has the correct answer, although it is not the one I would initially want to do. His answer of simply putting the small buck out of its misery and then tagging it achieves both the legal and morally correct result. However my desire to hunt for the big guy would be over. So when faced with this situation you could be legal and leave the little buck to suffer until nature handles it. If you chose that alternative you will have lingering thoughts about the additional suffering the buck went through because of your desire to continue the quest for the big boy. How much that thought haunts you might impact whether you truly want to just walk on by or end the suffering and tag the small guy. On the other hand you could put it out of it misery and not tag it, knowing that you have broken the law. I think that is what most posts here think they would do, and to tell you the truth, before posting this I wouild have opted for the same choice. However after further reflection I think I would now postpone my monster quest and do the legal and morally correct thing, even if I end up somewhat frustrated. As I stated in the original post, I generally prefer to follow the law. With this example the moral issue makes it somewhat difficult to see the correct answer at first blush. as you all know, sometimes being morally correct is not always easy. But as they say, it is best to do what is right even when no one is watching. Please do not take this as me condeming those who would proceed in a different manner, this is just the way I would handle it after further consideration. Anyway I appreciate all the responses, and I have truly learned something from this post.

BuckSnort · Oct 26, 2003

ctmuley,

I guess I'm a law breaker then. I have put them out of thier misery a few times before and I will continue to do it again.I guess I just have alot of respect for the animals cause I couldn't see calling a law officer and waiting,especially when the animal would most likely die before they get there.

BCBOY · Oct 26, 2003

Okay, now lets play Devil's Advocate on this one. How many animals are able to survive their injuries? If you saw a buck that was missing one of his front legs at the knee would you put it out of it's misery? I have a buddy that harvested a big monster buck that gross' 215 and nets 203 6/8 that was missing his front leg. My buddy didn't know until he walked up on the buck when it was on the ground. The shoulder was shrunk up and the wound was very old and well healed. He thought the injury was two years old or more. This buck was taken in a very remote area where very few hunters hunt. It was unlikely that the injury was man caused, more likely from fighting or a wolf or cougar attack.
I shot my biggest buck in the same area a couple of years before. My buck scores 1/8 of an inch larger than his. My buck had been fighting hard the day I shot him. He had rips and tears and puncture marks all over. His rear back leg was completely shattered. No skin was broken and I could take the leg and twist it around with no problem. No bone was connected, so it is unlikely it would have healed. My guess is that he wouldn't of had a problem surviving the upcoming winter.
I saw a doe this late spring that had no skin on it's back. It obviously had survived a ripping by a cougar. It was looking really healthy even though it was missing a huge chunk off it's back.
It is one thing to see an animal so busted up that it can't get up but it is a totally different thing to see an animal that is still mobile. Nature is not Disney made. It is brutal. It is unkind. So if you choose not to shoot a wounded deer and keep on hunting for your monster, that doesn't make you unethical. It makes you part of nature.

COGriz · Oct 26, 2003

BCBOY,

Interesting point... and a thought provoking story. It reminds me of the fact that animals don't experience pain and fear in the same way as humans. They live to survive and succeed only to the extent their genetic traits and experiential programming allow. Only we as human have the luxury of morality. We are separated from the ugly reality of 'survival of the fittest'.

Theodore Roosevelt once said, "The nation behaves well if it treats the natural resources as assets which it must turn over to the next generation, INCREASED and NOT IMPAIRED in value."

D13er · Oct 26, 2003

Very well said, ktc

JB

ktc · Oct 27, 2003

Okay, here I go again. When faced with a
'situation" and you do "the right thing," why talk about it here? If one does something that is "right" do we need accolades, awards, and acceptance for our behavior? Isn't feeling good about our actions enough? After all it was the "right" thing to do. If you feed a hungry person do you need to run around and brag about it? Or, was your gratitude enough? If you need others to know of your good will then you done it for the wrong reason.

I have heard the argument "shoot and tag it." That decision is yours. Maybe to you that is the "right thing." To others it may not be. Again, no one needs to know. Remember, we are doing the "right thing."

BuckSnort, I am not picking a fight here. I am just pointing something out. You have an icon below your posts saying "poachers suck." I am well aware of your intent. Spotlighting, winter range, and out of season killing is what you mean and I agree. However, you have repeatedly admitted to "poaching." By the letter of the law you have poached by doing the "right thing." The law can hang you by your testicles for this. THAT IS WHY, AND I WILL SAY IT AGAIN, JUST DO WHAT IS RIGHT, WHAT YOU FEEL IS RIGHT, FORGET IT, AND MOVE ON. END OF STORY.

Ed · Oct 27, 2003

No shooting or throat cutting here. I would keep on walking.

steelie · Oct 27, 2003

BCBOY brings up a good point, here are two examples I have had that show just how tough wild animals are:

I had a fawn run into the side of my truck, actually looked like she tried to jump into the window (closed). She was running full bore, hit hard right in the middle of her head. I pulled of the road and went back to see if she was OK. She just laid there quivering, eyelids open, but eyes rolled back, tongue hanging out. Looked like a seizure kind of. Looking at this deer though, there wasn't anything wrong with her (blood, breaks, etc). I waited there for about 1/2 hour, seemed like hours though, no change at all. I finally gave up hope and got up the nerve to finish her off, went back to the truck for the gun, walked up to her, CLICK! I was obviously a little nervous about this whole thing, didn't load a shell. Just as I was pulling back the slide to load one and try again, she jumps up, shakes off like a wet dog would and bounded away. Something was watching out for her that day.

I shot a little buck this year, while skinning it, I found 8 broken ribs that had healed. 12 total breaks on 8 ribs. Some of the ribs were zig-zagged from the breaks, all healed up though and the deer was very healthy. I imagine he got run over or fell off a cliff, either way that little guy had a few months were just breathing was more pain than many of us know and he lived to tell. Until he saw me.........

I have only ran into one wounded animal in the field, a 2-point in a 3-point or better area. I finished off and told the CO what I had done, he thanked me and told me not to speak of it anymore.