More Outfitter Welfare

Zim

Zim

Very Active Member
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2,291
Why am I not surprised? Yet again special interest groups line the pocket of a legislator to abandon the public trust. This time it's Maine's Troy Jackson.

http://georgesoutdoornews.bangordai...ll-get-maine-moose-hunting-permits-this-year/


All they got was one foot wedged firmly in the door, and you know what happens next? Paid your dues and waited your turn for 18 year?..........Bend over and grab your ankles:

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/bills/bills_125th/billtexts/HP034301.asp




***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-14 AT 05:50AM (MST)[p]How is waiting 18 years "paying dues"? See that's the problem in America right now. People think waiting in line for a handout is "paying dues".

How is Maine abandoning the public trust? The public are still getting moose tags?
 
It all comes down to math tristate, more outfitter tags, less tags for the general public, its elementary .

I think we understand your line of thinking, if outfitters get twenty moose tags to use so they can run their business, and the general public gets two, then everything is fine? I mean the public are still getting moose tags, they are still getting their "handouts" right?
 
Actually Piper you have missed my point completely. My point is two fold actually. First, whether you like it or not, THE OUTFITTERS ARE ALSO "GENERAL PUBLIC". Just because they are in business doesn't exclude them, ACTUAL CITIZENS, from being part of the tag system and the political processes. Second, if the outfitters getting tags is welfare then YOU getting a tag is just as much welfare. This isn't an argument of moral superiority but an argument of who gets to kill the last moose and is only based in selfishness. Quit thinking NACM and "The Public Trust" are some kind of trump card in arguments that you aren't going to win.
 
piper---Don't ya know by now that you can't have a meaningful discussion with the troll?! I also see my first post that just happened to mention an organization with it's initials got axed, LOL!
 
> This isn't an argument
>of moral superiority but an
>argument of who gets to
>kill the last moose and
>is only based in selfishness.

I'm a little confused, who is being selfish? Not arguing here just want to know what you mean?

Again, don't take it the wrong way.
 
Please take this the wrong way! Outfitter welfare is alive and well. I bet those sposering the bill n Maine wont wait n line.U see the average sportsman doesnt make his truck payment on the back of the publics wildlife.If u do as an outfitter then u should wait with the rest of the public, with the price set by the state agency in charge of the wildlife. Beware of the Kings deer! BH1
 
Captiancoues,

I do not see the outfitters screaming for all of the tags to be strictly given to them. However I do see people screaming for all the tags to be only divided up by the same old draws or lotteries. If the outfitters are saying that all the tags must be turned over to them only and no one else then yes I would consider that they are behaving selfishly. You might be interested to know that I think if the outfitters are being allocated tags to sell to clients I think every person who draws a tag should be allowed to sell their tag to a second party if they so decided. I am a person who values competition.

Deerlove,

I am busier than I have ever been but I still have room for your next trophy. Just send it on in.
 
Saying outfitters receiving tags that they can then turn around and sell for profit is the same as a public tag that can't do that is asinine, and also very par for the course.

I would expect nothing else.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-14 AT 01:49PM (MST)[p]I can't find anywhere where anyone said it was the "same", Vanilla. Go read what I posted also. I said if the outfitters are getting tags I think the people who draw a tag should be able to sell their tag also. If its good enough for one it should be the same for the other.
 
"Maine sporting camps, lodges, inns, and guides will get moose hunting permits this year."

This is commercialization of big game tags for the sake of monetary profit. Not sure how this can be construed any other way. Giant failure for Maine...

Maine moose, now open to the highest bidder.

Dam shame.

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway."
 
"This is commercialization of big game tags for the sake of monetary profit."

Yes!

"Not sure how this can be construed any other way."

I don't think anyone does see it any other way.

" Giant failure for Maine..."

Why? Is it a giant failure for government agencies to generate revenue from its natural resources. Government doesn't run off of fairy dust and good will. Do you think all those game wardens and biologists are volunteers. Here's the part you won't like. If you would have gotten off your tail years ago and started paying real prices for what those tags were worth there would have never been a need to start giving the tags to outfitters.

"Maine moose, now open to the highest bidder."

Not yet, but hopefully soon.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-14 AT 02:30PM (MST)[p]Can a guy get a outfitter lic. and buy himself a tag????????????

does this happen or can it happen???????? Made me always wonder seems like I have seen some outfitters with the best tags aguy can get or he is extremely lucky getting the hardest tags
 
I'd be curious about the specific rationale for singling out "sporting camps, lodges, inns, and guides" for Bull Moose tags at the bargain basement price of 1500.00 each. The 10 auction permits which are sold each year have already established the market value, selling reliably year after year for 10000.00 to 12000.00 each. Why sell these for drastically less?

My other question would be: "how will this change enhance the resource?"
 
There are "permit set asides" for outfitters in several Western States. I have always taken time to get my oar in the water opposing these so-called "set asides" by writing to State congressmen and/or the appropriate Game and Fish dept.....to no avail. Having lived and hunting in all of the NW states, MT, ID, WY, CO, OR, & WA always on a DYI basis, I have ran into many outfitters and/or their guides. Some were great people. Others, not so great and some were downright outlaws. However, I never thought it appropriate for a State to guarantee them clients by "setting aside" coveted permits for outfitters. Why would a State Gov. think it appropriate to do that? It completely takes the working of a fair market out of the picture that would eliminate the poorest outfitters due to simple market performance. Bah humbug! The other comment I would make is that this law and others that give preference to business/money interests are simply inching us away from the most successful wildlife management model in the world backwards toward the European model that our distant forefathers fled from....private hunting and private ownership of a country's game species.
 
Private Land outfitting has contributed more to restricting sportsman's access than any other factor. When you plan on making a living off of outfitting, you are rolling the dice, just like agriculture, the only difference is, we need ranchers and farmers, we don't need private land outfitters. The thing is guys, we have more power, we just don't see it, and aren't organized enough to do anything about it. The public Joe could drive the private land outfitter out of business, if we organized into a lobbying group, lined the pockets of congressmen, and made a huge stink and cried "you are taking away our livelihood". I for one am for paying a decent sum of money every year when I buy my general hunting license to up the sums we offer landowners to enroll in public access programs. We need to get the Feds and state working together with landowners to create paying access to landlocked pieces of federal and state land. We have the numbers, we just have to get organized. I'm not wholly against the Idea of a private land outfitting, I just want everyone to get the tags the same way I do, and have to access the public land the same way I do!

You can't be for free market hunting on one hand, and be for giving welfare tags to outfitters on the other. You know who you are.
 
"You can't be for free market hunting on one hand, and be for giving welfare tags to outfitters on the other. You know who you are."

Bingo. But some undisclosed trolls want to have their cake and eat it too!

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-14 AT 06:57PM (MST)[p]^eh, yeah...so what about being vehemently vocal against outfitter allocations, yet utilizing such to increase your own chance to draw?

No, that wouldn't be hypocritical at all, would it Zim?

BTW, though I am a professional guide, my personal stance against "outfitter welfare" provisions is well documented on here.

Adam
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-14 AT 07:54PM (MST)[p]Greatwestern, I have absolutely nothing against outfitters. They are some of the best folks I know. I even know a few who are against the same welfare that would benefit them financially. They stick to their principals. I also don't see anything wrong with hiring Huey Ley to drop camp my gear in to my New Mexico wilderness area considering my back sucks now from 20 years of working carpentry 60 hours/week since my entitlement minded ex refused to work for our kids. You got something against Huey or his horses? I think he's a good guy.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
An outfitter provides a service that some people are willing to pay for. If he's good, there will be a demand for his service and he can price his service accordingly. Free market stuff.

Give some outfitters(WYOGA) an inch and they will take a mile. In Wyoming, outfitters have been taking miles for a long time, but that has changed. Residents are starting to take some of that distance back.

Outfitters tried to get set-asides here many years ago and they were terribly embarrassed.
 
Nah Zim, youre skirting the point man. I have absolutely no problem with your guy, nor with your utilizing his services. Its just strange to me that you publicly lambaste these programs when they represent a conflict with your personal interests, yet use them when they provide you an advantage, such as the opportunities you've enjoyed through drawing Outfitter tags here in New Mexico.

If you were actually firmly against the welfare in principle, you could always apply in the NR DIY pool (I know, total crap odds, but that's another subject, and you know I was also greatly against SB196) and then hire Huey or whomever you like as packer for your drop camps.

Anyway, whatever...like I said, not a fan of Outfitter Allocations myself. The cream rises to the top, and good outfitters/guides will always book hunts on their own merits.

Adam
 
Zim sounds to me people have been "wronging or screwing you" for a long time. Interesting it's not just isolated to hunting. I'm not gonna comment on the moose because I don't know all the details. Rarely does any Interweb topic give the full story. However I will say you do seem to search out things that cause you heartache. I wonder if you were happier before the interweb? Before you knew about all of terrible crap things that you worry about now. Seems like some people can always find something to bittch about.
 
Muley73, Good idea for you to not comment on the Maine moose if you don't know all the details, because that is the topic of this thread.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
Simple as I can put it, all these changes do not bode well for the next generation of hunters.

To think that WY does not have outfitter welfare would be kidding oneself. NR cannot hunt the designated wilderness ares w/o an outfitter, located on National Forest lands that we all pay for.
 
quote: (clearwater150)

>"There are "permit set asides" for
>outfitters in several Western States.
> I have always taken
>time to get my oar
>in the water opposing these
>so-called "set asides" by writing
>to State congressmen and/or the
>appropriate Game and Fish dept.....to
>no avail. Having lived
>and hunting in all of
>the NW states, MT, ID,
>WY, CO, OR, & WA
>always on a DYI basis,
>I have ran into many
>outfitters and/or their guides.
>Some were great people.
>Others, not so great and
>some were downright outlaws."
>However, I never thought it
>appropriate for a State to
>guarantee them clients by "setting
>aside" coveted permits for outfitters.
> Why would a State
>Gov. think it appropriate to
>do that? It completely
>takes the working of a
>fair market out of the
>picture that would eliminate the
>poorest outfitters due to simple
>market performance. Bah humbug!
> The other comment I
>would make is that this
>law and others that give
>preference to business/money interests are
>simply inching us away from
>the most successful wildlife management
>model in the world backwards
>toward the European model that
>our distant forefathers fled from....private
>hunting and private ownership of
>a country's game species.


This is well put clearwater.


The recent decision to sell moose permits isn't sitting too well with many Maine residents. Whether legislation to repeal this law will garner sufficient support remains to be seen. Work's in progress though.


As a side question, how many states have Outfitter Allocations or Permit set asides?

Thanks, Jay
 
Cry all you want but until ALL of the welfare hunters who sit around thinking that waiting in a draw is "paying dues" actually nut up and start paying more than what they are paying now they will loose more and more to the capitalization of the resource. Free or even dirt cheap rides for citizens who think they are entitled, because they drank some cool aid that makes them believe they own these critters, won't last forever. This is a socialist wildlife system currently and SOCIALISM doesn't work.
 
>Cry all you want but until
>ALL of the welfare hunters
>who sit around thinking that
>waiting in a draw is
>"paying dues" actually nut up
>and start paying more than
>what they are paying now
>they will loose more and
>more to the capitalization of
>the resource. Free or
>even dirt cheap rides for
>citizens who think they are
>entitled, because they drank some
>cool aid that makes them
>believe they own these critters,
>won't last forever. This
>is a socialist wildlife system
>currently and SOCIALISM doesn't work.
>


Yep, that's what outfitters(and some taxidermists) have been trying to tell us.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-26-14 AT 02:22PM (MST)[p]Hey Jay!
Southern Maine Guide Services

Welcome to MM! Post #1

I am a Midwest invader to this #1 best western web forum, but I call it my stomping grounds. I am sure you're one of very few Maine resident MMers!

Hey guys, attached is a photo of Jay and me with our 2012 New Hampshire bull. Photo was taken an hour before Hurricane Sandy moved in!

709dscn1655.jpg


Jay, Since you are new here, please be aware there's a guy posting on this thread that has been rendered delusional. We're pretty sure it was the result of breathing in too many toxic taxidermy chemical fumes. He is in fact quite an entertaining comedian. You should think of him as the MM version of Gilbert Godfrey. Just wanted to warn you before you read his stuff and you know something ain't quite right with his head, but you don't want to say anything.

Enjoy MM!

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
Zim,
The Maine moose issue is just another reason for you to whine. Whether I agree or disagree with it. Constant whining. Rotten outfitters, rotten wildlife groups, rotten wife. Creating a hate club on your signature. Hopefully people see the trend. MM can be a great site and I've enjoyed it for years. Whether I agree with Tristate on every issue or not it is a balance that is needed for much of the stuff you bring onto this site.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-26-14 AT 12:38PM (MST)[p]Muley73,

Don't B Hatin'. :)


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC
 
SOCIALISM, SOCIALISM all caps just for tritip.

TRILIP you are one of the bigger ass clowns to ever grace this fine forum.

Lets return to market hunting cause TRILIP said so.


"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Where did I ever say we should return to market hunting. Weeniewapati you are like arguing with a woman. You don't hear anything that is said but you hear everything that pisses you off even when it hasn't been said.
 
Poor Tristate you just don't get it do you?, socialism works just fine in many instances, want me to explain it to you?
All modern successful societies incorporate a mixture of socialism and capitalism, and the ones that don't fail.
Most of us like our socialized wildlife and our socialized public land, in fact I believe its probably the best part of America.

I would hate to live in Texas, in fact one of the Texans that works for Shell got transferred back to Texas recently, he was so depressed, I was seriously worried he was going to do something regretful.
 
Piper,

Did you actually think that was an argument. That literally had almost nothing at all to do with anything that is being discussed. Socialism doesn't work and it isn't working for wildlife right now. If it was none of us would be having these discussions. There is a plane burning and spinning out of control that you are on and you are describing how flight is the safest form of transportation.
 
There are about 4,100 total moose tags for Maine in 2014. 88 will be designated for sporting camps to purchase and disseminate as they see fit. The bull tags will be desirable and make this a popular program. A lot of them will be cow tags that go untaken by the lodges and will go back into the general drawing. The funds raised by the state F&W Dept. will be used for moose research. Anyone that drew a tag in 2011, 2012, or 2013 will be ineligible to purchase one of these tags. Anyone (resident or non-resident) who does purchase one must also book an American Plan stay at the camp, and hire the services of a Registered Maine Hunting Guide provided by the sporting camp. The camps are paying F&W an extra fee for these tags and hopefully benefitting from the program. Not unlike a trucking company paying extra road use fees but subsequently benefitting from using the roads.That's just one similar form of "welfare" I guess.
 
Not
>unlike a trucking company paying
>extra road use fees but
>subsequently benefitting from using the
>roads.That's just one similar form
>of "welfare" I guess.

So which state is it that you have to draw a highly coveted road use license?
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-27-14 AT 12:44PM (MST)[p]OMG the cluster freak complexity of regulations is endless once you open up the Pandora's Box that is welfare. And that is only the beginning. They are grasping at straws trying to cover every angle of abuse that is inevitable with welfare.

While the 70 year old resident with 30 points looks on in amazement.


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
You make me laugh tristate, we are having a discussion
about more commercialization of public wildlife

It has nothing to do with your strange beliefs
 
Tristate, most of us are blue collard guys with family who cant afford to pay you or others to hold our hands while we hunt. My paycheck from multiple jobs is going to pay for my family. I can barely afford even to apply in different states than my own. This is just a prime example of how the poverty gap is widening and the rich are getting richer including getting more tags and the poor are getting poorer. It will then be rich guys with all the tags and the middle class with none. Private access to property I can see the rich paying for those perks but not to the states that manage the animals.

Someday I am going to have to possibly become an outfitter and compete with you so my friends can actually draw tags on public land. The only reason I don't guide or outfit now is because I like to hunt and enjoy the outdoors with friends and family more than I like to take strangers into the woods.
 
Be dawg,


Go get rich or take up rabbit hunting. You think I get moose tags? I have never killed a moose and will probably never get to. That doesn't mean my desire to do so should stimulate legislation and mismanagement which ultimately harm the species.
 
That doesn't
>mean my desire to do
>so should stimulate legislation and
>mismanagement which ultimately harm the
>species.


Lodges and professional hunters are the ones who stimulated legislation in Maine...and in Wyoming... and in New Mexico...and on and on...

Just letting the general public draw for tags will ultimately harm the resourse??
 
"Just letting the general public draw for tags will ultimately harm the resourse??"

It has, and will, if the state agencies which hand them out do not charge properly for the tags.
 
Please be more specific. I am not seeing how the public drawing tags is going to "harm the resource" anymore than those who have the means of renting a guide? Do you mean financially for the State?
 
jm77 - Good point about my "trucker" statement. But I still believe that Maine's new program will be beneficial. It will only involve about 1% of the total bull tags available.

Zim - Any Maine resident that's 70 or over and has 30 bonus points gets a tag this year; about 375 of them; that's what I understood the F&W Commissioner to say.

BeDawg - Good luck with your future outfitting business?Have fun and remember any fool can work for nothing. Also, I thought collards were green, not blue.
 
"The Resource" costs money. I can help break this down for you.

How much money does a Maine moose tag cost?

How many total moose tags are they going to hand out?

Answer these questions and we will continue so you can see how this welfare tag system is actually hurting more than helping a moose.
 
>"The Resource" costs money. I
>can help break this down
>for you.
>
>How much money does a Maine
>moose tag cost?
>
>How many total moose tags are
>they going to hand out?
>
>
>Answer these questions and we will
>continue so you can see
>how this welfare tag system
>is actually hurting more than
>helping a moose.


Correct, the outfitter welfare.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-28-14 AT 12:47PM (MST)[p]"Welfare" is an appropriate characterization of this program. Because private entities (sporting camps, lodges, inns, and guides) are being singled out to subvert the public draw and receive Moose tags at an extreme discounted price, ridiculously below the fair market value. They're getting tags for 1500, when anyone else who wants to subvert the public draw in the same way, has to pay 10,000-12,000 in the annual public auction.

Errant socialistic programs like this will keep popping up, even though the methodology is long-since proven as broken. Proof once again that governments are slow to learn.
 
I am talking about ALL the tags. Do you want to answer the question and learn or are you more interested in bickering over who's handout is welfare and who isn't. If you want to ask questions and never get an answer then this is all kind of childish.

If you are scared of answering the questions then lets go your next angle of when it is welfare. How much does the outfitter pay for the tag and how much does a tag cost to an individual who draws it? Go post those two numbers now please.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-28-14 AT 05:04PM (MST)[p]>Zim - Any Maine resident that's
>70 or over and has
>30 bonus points gets a
>tag this year; about 375
>of them; that's what I
>understood the F&W Commissioner to
>say.

mainer, Where do you get your information from?

http://www.onlinesentinel.com/news/...-for-non-winners_2012-01-30.html?pagenum=full

But it's not just that. What about the 69 year old guys that have been applying for 29 years looking on in amazement? Or the 68 year olds?

The recent rule changes only got rid of the rediculous $55 ten point packs for residents. That is about it. No matter what anyone says, there's going to be dozens of 20 something year old punk kid outfitters holding the tags of multiple 70+ year old guys who have been APPLYING and waiting since THOSE OUTFITTERS WERE WEARING DIAPERS! SINCE BEFORE THOSE OUTFITTERS WERE BORN! EVEN SINCE BEFORE MANY WERE EVEN TWINKLES IN THEIR PARENT'S EYES!


My parents were born in 1919, and were members of the Greatest Generation. A time before Johnson Administration unsustainable welfare expansion taught the new punk kid generation how to sponge. My dad became a self-made multi-millionaire in real estate without the aid of any welfare. I followed his ethics instruction and ran my own construction business for 20 years without a penny of welfare for any reason. I got business the old fashioned way, I EARNED IT!

Not that I have anything againt those who used what they funded, but I am 54 and have never even filed for unemployment once in my life. If I needed a job I went out and got one, once going jobsite to jobsite in the depths of the 1980's S&L bailout recession. I did what I had to, and I took whatever ******* job I could get. I never put my hand out whining for freebies.

****************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
You can say I am clueless but not one of you ladies has the balls to answer the questions I posed to you. NOT ONE!
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-28-14 AT 04:57PM (MST)[p]Yes Tri, even your entitlement minded supporters can't asnswer your questions. They are equally baffled by your nonsense and illogical anomalies.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
A resident moose tag in Maine is $52.00. Non-resident: $585.00. Bull tags and cow tags are priced the same; that is, no discount for a cow tag. A resident can enter the drawing for $15.00. A non-resident can enter with one chance for $15.00; or buy multiple chances: Three chances: $25.00; six chances: $35.00; 10 chances: $55.00. Furthermore only for non-residents, they can purchase unlimited extra chances, but if buying more than ten, the non-res. must purchase them in groups of ten @ $55.00 per ten group. So 20 chances are $110.00; 100 chances are $550.00; 300 chances would be $1,650.00 and so on. Before the class division whiners get too worked up, I know individuals that have purchased 400 chances and not been picked, and every year I talk with several first or second time applicants, who bought one or three chances and were picked. One bonus point is awarded if you are not among the chosen. After five unchosen years your bonus points start to become worth more than one point, with even more weight added to the bonus points after 10 and 15 years. Bonus points were started in 1998, and up until 2011, you lost all your points if you missed a year of entering. So forget about the 30 year stuff. Missing a year before 2011 meant you FAILED to apply. Like it or not, the longterm applicants are rewarded now for faithfulness. Some folks do get picked on their first try. If you are in your 20's start applying now, and don't wet your pants if you don't get picked. If you have kids, if nothing else, buy them a bonus point ($15.00) every year and then hope they don't spend all their funds on tats and piercings and have brains enough to continue to enter as adults.
 
I drew a Maine bull tag the third year I applied in 2009. I had been applying + a ten pack each year. Was a fun hunt, killed a pretty good bull, but hated that the season was only 6 days long.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-28-14 AT 08:39PM (MST)[p]"Zim - Any Maine resident that's 70 or over and has 30 bonus points gets a tag this year; about 375 of them; that's what I understood the F&W Commissioner to say."


This is nonsense and complete fantasy. Anybody with max points, resident or nonresident, is guaranteed absolutely nothing.

There will be plenty of tags carted off by punk kids that otherwise would have gone to 70+ year old max point holders. That I CAN guarantee you.


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-29-14 AT 06:13AM (MST)[p]Mainer,

Thank you for answering my question. The moose tag costs $52 for residents that draw.

Now does anyone here see the irony of people, who pay $55 for basically a side of beef, saying someone else who pays a lot more is getting welfare?

Now do you see where the welfare is boys?
 
All I can say to Maine residents is I hope your state has a citizens initiative process where you can override the actions of your legislature.





I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-29-14 AT 08:35AM (MST)[p]>LAST EDITED ON Apr-29-14
>AT 06:13?AM (MST)
>
>Mainer,
>
>Thank you for answering my question.
> The moose tag costs
>$52 for residents that draw.
>
>
>Now does anyone here see the
>irony of people, who pay
>$55 for basically a side
>of beef, saying someone else
>who pays a lot more
>is getting welfare?
>
>Now do you see where the
>welfare is boys?


It's true, everything they say about you Tri. What a stupid analagy.

I suppose the outfitter won't pass along that $1500+ another $5000 + the price of the hunt? You need to call SFW and get a local chapter going there in Texas. Your mindset fits perfectly with their model of the way hunting should be.

Please forgive me everyone, but I just fed the troll...
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-29-14 AT 10:13AM (MST)[p]JM77 if you want to cry because you don't think the outfitter is charged enough then that is fine. If you want the tag to cost more I don't have a problem with that. When the outfitters quit making money they will quit buying the tags and YOUR wildlife will go back to suffering. My whole point is a bunch of little kids who are getting damn near free tags are calling other people paying for the resource welfare. Its no different than watching Shanequa and Lakisha fight for gubmint handouts in front of a store. This is exactly what WELFARE does to people. You fight like a bunch of animals because that's the only way you know to achieve your goals, instead of thinking your way through the problem. The only difference is this time its some silly moose tags.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-29-14 AT 09:36AM (MST)[p]Why does anyone even answer tri in any way shape or form. Is there anyway that we could all ignore him, and just act like his posts and brainwashed mentality doesn't exist. I think tri would do anything for money, and i mean anything, no i really mean anything!! If you look at it that way his posts wouldn't ever need to be answered, and he could just argue with himself in the mirror. Please quit feeding this guy lunch, he lives for this stuff, and money solves everything, forget about reasoning, that got bought out by more money. Tri is a classic example of the mentality of "we can spend our way out of any problem" , and there is no need to use your brain, just keep spending and plundering and everything will be ok someday.
 
Coues,

I see you can't defend these boy's position of this being welfare while they have to pay 28 times less what these outfitters have to pay. You don't like the fact that I let you see EXACTLY how ridiculous your position is. You think I believe we can spend our way out of anything and that couldn't be further from the truth. But you can't help a situation by making it a constant money looser either and that's what your wildlife model is. Its a giant money pit that none of these welfare queens want to pay into but they all want their free gubmint cheese. So what's left? Attack the messenger. Yes let's all ignore Tri-State and hope he goes away and the status quo of getting something for nothing will continue until the last moose is gone and you can be proud you screwed everyone else out of something including your own children.
 
"Why does anyone even answer tri in any way shape or form."

I think the answer to that is curiosity. Some of us just want to see how outrageous it will get. It makes us ponder what it must look like while it's forming the reply. What was it's upbringing? How does it treat it's customers? Why is it racist and how did it get that way?

Again, I apologise for feeding it, but sometimes it's worth a good laugh!
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-29-14 AT 02:15PM (MST)[p]mainer,

Cuddos for you to at least have the balls to post your real name in your MM profile. So everyone can see you are indeed a Maine moose outfitter that stands to gain greatly from such welfare. Saw that by Googling it. The VAST majority of other MM forum auction/outfitter welfare tag proponents will only post using fake names or the proverbial..........

"You can't view *********'s profile because his/her profile has been disabled."

.........then come up with some unrelated excuse they have to do that. I've even uncovered 4 or 5 undercover outfitter profiles in the past that turned out to have direct ties to a certain criminal Utah organization. Afterwards, one even threatened to call my boss since I was posting during most people's business hours. :)

Anyway, my parents were members of the Greatest Generation, pre-Johnson Administration unsustainable welfare expansion days. I was raised by them with that same mentality. I had a construction company for 20 years before taking my current job. I was taught to be successful in my business the old fashioned way......to EARN it. Never filed for nor claimed any entitlement, not even unemployment, in my life. I took great pride in this.

I am just wondering how you were raised. Why you think you are entitled to this entitlement. Do you have any conscious at all about cutting in line in front of 70 year old guys that have been paying and applying for 30 years? What would you tell one of these folks if he was standing in front of you? I am genuinely serious. Personally I could not do it. I would not want to participate in something like this. Maybe I just have too much pride? Is it just pure and simple greed, with no pride in one's work? Or what?

I don't intend this to be a personal attack. It's just I normally never got to ask a guide directly because they typically hide behind MM anonymity here. Just trying to understand the logic. Thanks.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-29-14 AT 02:18PM (MST)[p]In an attempt to try and not feed you lunch i will make it simple. I don't feel the need to defend others arguments about welfare tags and tag giveaways. All i have to do cite actual tried and true states that don't have tag give aways like arizona, colorado, and new mexico. These are actual models not arguments from people. Do you have a model to cite from, instead of a feeble argument, and please don't cite utah, cause that model hasn't been tested in any way yet, except for its divisiveness values among the hunting community. Until your argument is tested and verified to be an actual model deemed to work, then your argument is actually the one that needs the defense. Until then it smells like verbal diarrhea to most. Again spending a bunch of money is and never has been the smartest way to do things, and tailoring to the crowd with the biggest pockets sounds like someone didn't use their brain but a selfish heart. Guys like tri are the reason why public contractors to the government can get away with charging 500 dollars for a role of toilet paper these days. When in doubt spend your way out of every problem!!!
 
"In an attempt to try and not feed you lunch i will make it simple. I don't feel the need to defend others arguments about welfare tags and tag giveaways. All i have to do cite actual tried and true states that don't have tag give aways like arizona, colorado, and new mexico."

What are you citing? Not a single one of those states has as good a mule deer herds or as much opportunity for you as when the NACM came into effect. Stand proud, slick.

" These are actual models not arguments from people. Do you have a model to cite from, instead of a feeble argument, and please don't cite utah, cause that model hasn't been tested in any way yet, except for its divisiveness values among the hunting community."

Sure try the SAVE conservancy or the Bubby Conservancy or the Kashmir Markor. How about Royal Kafue. How about the How about any one of hundreds of privately run ranches in the USA. Even Mexico is gaining on you. Open your eyes and quit being so egocentric.

" Until your argument is tested and verified to be an actual model deemed to work, then your argument is actually the one that needs the defense. Until then it smells like verbal diarrhea to most."

Just the welfare queens like you.

" Again spending a bunch of money is and never has been the smartest way to do things, and tailoring to the crowd with the biggest pockets sounds like someone didn't use their brain but a selfish heart."

Neither has trying to get things done with no money at all.

" Guys like tri are the reason why public contractors to the government can get away with charging 500 dollars for a role of toilet paper these days. When in doubt spend your way out of every problem!!!"

You don't have any argument so you bring up something completely off subject. Nice.
 
I can tell you how I was raised Zim. I was raised to realize the rest of the free world quit worrying about who was "first" in line once they make past the age of 8. Anyone who is 70 damn sure should have realized it by now. I have no tears or mercy for the people who are still holding on to elementary school fundamentals.
 
Tristate, Clearly, my question was not directed at you.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-29-14 AT 08:32PM (MST)[p]>I can tell you how I
>was raised Zim. I
>was raised to realize the
>rest of the free world
>quit worrying about who was
>"first" in line once they
>make past the age of
>8. Anyone who is
>70 damn sure should have
>realized it by now.
>I have no tears or
>mercy for the people who
>are still holding on to
>elementary school fundamentals.

Tristate,
You sure have a different disposition when explaining your taxidermy ****ups to your wealthy auction and outfitter tag buying clients!

http://www.texashuntfish.com/app/view/Post/32586/Taxidermist-Lost-My-Cape-This-Year

Your critics will probably get a laugh at you kissing a$$ in that thread as opposed to your typical MM Gilbert Godfrey comedy act. I knew a couple women with dissociative identity disorder too. Hope you can get it treated successfully.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
Hi Zim, Happy to answer you questions as best as I can. But first I have to clear something up. Guides and outfitters do not necessarily qualify to get one of these tags that are designated only for qualified commercial sporting camps. I am an independent guide, with no strict affiliation with any of these camps. Perhaps one of the camps that gets a tag will want to hire me for the client that ultimately books with that sporting camp.

As to my upbringing, I guess I am in your age group. My parents too were members of the greatest generation. Guiding a hunter with one of these tags, if I do, will not be accepting any form of welfare. I will work just as hard as I always have to exceed the expectations of the hunter. Pride is a sin, so I will refrain from describing how I feel about past successes in this business. With the exception of working for four years in my twenties in boat construction shops to learn a skill, I have been self-employed since I was 17 (now 62). I have been self-employed as a commercial lobsterman December through August every year since 1980. The boat construction didn't pan out. I suspect that you and I have much in common and could swap some similar stories about the ups and downs of being self-employed. But I have digressed.

If some camp owner hires me to guide one of these hunters, as far as my welfare is concerned, it will be a free market decision on the part of the camp owner to offer a guide that the camp owner thinks will best serve the hunter. If I screw up, my stock will drop, and I may not be hired again.

I have no problem looking anyone in the eye??..anywhere, anytime.

Also, I support the policy of these sporting camps being able to try and get one of these tags. The traditional sporting camps offer a great service throughout the remote unpopulated woods in northern and western Maine. By no fault of their own, they are at risk of losing their bear hunting business due to a peoples referendum on the ballot this coming Fall. They are are to a person hard working, self employed individuals trying to support families and maintain their investments. It's not easy, and by the way the typical sporting camp in Maine is not at all as fancy or well capitalized as the ones we see in magazines, or on TV. Hope this helps you understand my perspective.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-29-14 AT 05:27PM (MST)[p]>"In an attempt to try and
>not feed you lunch i
>will make it simple. I
>don't feel the need to
>defend others arguments about welfare
>tags and tag giveaways. All
>i have to do cite
>actual tried and true states
>that don't have tag give
>aways like arizona, colorado, and
>new mexico."
>
>What are you citing? Not
>a single one of those
>states has as good a
>mule deer herds or as
>much opportunity for you as
>when the NACM came into
>effect. Stand proud, slick.
>
>
>" These are actual models not
>arguments from people. Do you
>have a model to cite
>from, instead of a feeble
>argument, and please don't cite
>utah, cause that model hasn't
>been tested in any way
>yet, except for its divisiveness
>values among the hunting community."
>
>
>Sure try the SAVE conservancy or
>the Bubby Conservancy or the
>Kashmir Markor. How about Royal
>Kafue. How about the
>How about any one of
>hundreds of privately run ranches
>in the USA. Even
>Mexico is gaining on you.
> Open your eyes and
>quit being so egocentric.
>
>" Until your argument is tested
>and verified to be an
>actual model deemed to work,
>then your argument is actually
>the one that needs the
>defense. Until then it smells
>like verbal diarrhea to most."
>
>
>Just the welfare queens like you.
>
>
>" Again spending a bunch of
>money is and never has
>been the smartest way to
>do things, and tailoring to
>the crowd with the biggest
>pockets sounds like someone didn't
>use their brain but a
>selfish heart."
>
>Neither has trying to get things
>done with no money at
>all.
>
>" Guys like tri are the
>reason why public contractors to
>the government can get away
>with charging 500 dollars for
>a role of toilet paper
>these days. When in doubt
>spend your way out of
>every problem!!!"
>
>You don't have any argument so
>you bring up something completely
>off subject. Nice.

Tri, i'm right on the subject actually as the title to this thread has the words "welfare tags" in it. All welfare tags are the same pretty much. Arizona blows away utah for mule deer, especially giant mule deer, and this isn't up for discussion. Also colorado in my opinion is superior to utah mule deer as far as numbers of boone and crockett type animals. It would be a waste of time to go into comparing utah to arizona for elk. As far as mexico goes you obviously haven't been to mexico very much cause if you did go every january like me for close to 30 days for the last 10 years, you would know that is not factual. Trying to make everyone who draws a tag and that doesn't have to pay 10000 to go
hunting feel guilty because of the fees they pay is really getting old. I cited models that work and all you can come back with is false facts about utah being superior and mexico being better or gaining on the west. Maybe raising tag fees is in order for the general public, but tag welfare is equal to government waste. More money for more groups trying to waste more money in general with very little return for the species being exploited while the general public takes it in the shorts. All the while people with your take on things laugh while orbiting around with more money to waste. Theres my steak for the night tri, and i will not respond back regardless of your argument.
 
Wow zim, you really do realize there is absolutely no way your brain will get you through this childish position you have taken. Do you want to know how much time I have spent on the Internet trying to dig up dirt on you? Not one single second. You aren't important enough and my argument is plenty to cut you to pieces. Let me tell you one more thing, boy. I explain the truth to everyone regardless of how old they are or how much money they make or what they hunt. It keeps me looking right in the eyes of gutless old men who have to search for Internet gossip to make themselves feel better about their failed lot in life.
 
mainer,

I didn't ask you if you could simply look the 70 year old in the eye. I asked:
"Do you have any conscious at all about cutting in line in front of 70 year old guys that have been paying and applying for 30 years? What would you tell one of these folks if he was standing in front of you?"

Meaning what would you tell him if he asked why you should be able to cut in line and get a special privilege or welfare or entitlement (or whatever term makes you feel good about it) ahead of him.


"Guiding a hunter with one of these tags, if I do, will not be accepting any form of welfare." Really? What do you call it then? What term makes you feel good?


"Pride is a sin."? So I am a sinner for the fact I never filed for unemployment or any other unsustainable government entitlement or subsidy in my life, but speak about it? While we experience unimaginable federal debt levels? But your special interest group is a saint for greasing Troy Jackson? Really? And that makes you feel good about yourself?


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
I have, rather enjoyably, read down through all the posts. However, I see no compelling argument for singling out and granting any entity privileges the vast, vast majority of sportsmen do not get or can not take advantage of. As I read, I kept expecting someone to put forward the argument that "a 70 year old who has been putting in all his hunting life can now contact a Sporting Camp and arrange to hunt moose." No one did but as pretty as that argument might sound, it really holds no water as there are likely many, if not most, 70 YOs who would be priced out of the opportunity. Singling out commercial interests and granting them special privileges can only be a direct result of political favoritism. Again I would ask "How can it be ethically right for a government to guarantee a business income?" In my experience, "political favoritism" is an euphemism for political corruption.
 
""Pride is a sin."? So I am a sinner for the fact I never filed for unemployment or any other unsustainable government entitlement or subsidy in my life, but speak about it? While we experience unimaginable federal debt levels? But your special interest group is a saint for greasing Troy Jackson? Really? And that makes you feel good about yourself?"


What makes it a sin is the fact that you think your "experience" makes you righteous in these matters. You stand here and judge other people you don't know and think age and some BS form of entitlement are your credentials. I can tell you this I have a lot more respect for younger men like Mainer than I do some old man who sits around crying on his computer because he believes living more days entitles him to first position at the tit.
 
""How can it be ethically right for a government to guarantee a business income?" In my experience, "political favoritism" is an euphemism for political corruption."

Why do you think people BUYING a resource from the government is guaranteeing them a business income? And then why would it not be ethical. It is no different than purchasing a commercial drivers permit. Or paying for a building permit. Every single businessman has to pay to the government to secure his PRIVILEGE to do business. And it doesn't "Guarantee" anything. There is no guarantee that the outfitter will even sell the tag much less profit from it. Welcome to America.
 
"Tri, i'm right on the subject actually as the title to this thread has the words "welfare tags" in it. All welfare tags are the same pretty much. Arizona blows away utah for mule deer, especially giant mule deer, and this isn't up for discussion. Also colorado in my opinion is superior to utah mule deer as far as numbers of boone and crockett type animals. It would be a waste of time to go into comparing utah to arizona for elk. "

You're so dumb you think this is a pissing match between states. You can't understand this is about the wildlife and your socialist model blankets across all those states you look down your nose at including yours.

"As far as mexico goes you obviously haven't been to mexico very much cause if you did go every january like me for close to 30 days for the last 10 years, you would know that is not factual. Trying to make everyone who draws a tag and that doesn't have to pay 10000 to go
hunting feel guilty because of the fees they pay is really getting old."

Do you realize you just argued that you know the "feelings" of all the hunters that hunt in Mexico? Do you actually think logic entered anywhere in the argument you just made? DO you realize how bat crap crazy that is.

" I cited models that work and all you can come back with is false facts about utah being superior and mexico being better or gaining on the west."

Hey, set down the crackpipe. I never said anything about Utah being better than you. You are making up things to be offended about. Maybe you should stick to knowing all hunters feelings.


"Maybe raising tag fees is in order for the general public, but tag welfare is equal to government waste."


AND THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE! Finally you said it. Finally through random ignorance of moving fingers enough you typed it. Yes the tag welfare that all these men who are buying moose tags for $52 IS GOVERNMENT WASTE!
 
As usual more verbal diarrhea from good ole lonely tri. No one wants to be within 20 feet of tri so he comes on here trying to meet someone who can tolerate him, and he's so ignorant that he can't see that everyone wishes he would just go away and stay away. Of course he will justify in his own mind that all the people that can't stand him just aren't smart enough to get him or his looney stories, cause that's what he had to do thru grade school , high school, and any other function he gets involved with. It's really sad when someone like tri doesn't get that he's literally hated and it's so blatant that even a baboon would see the writing on the wall. No need to argue with you tri, you have already hung yourself on this site so many times why am i even responding to you anymore. I can guarantee tri is rationalizing right now in his head that he's the only one that gets it, and that everyone else that can't stand him just needs to think a little harder. Can you imagine growing up in a bubble like that , and what a internal defense to have instead of realizing he's really just a very diff person, almost impossible to get along with. So sad tri. Good luck with your relationships in the future!!
 
Coues,

Are you in 7th or 8th grade. You have given up on logic completely and joined the ranks of Zim who believe that character assassination, and ego self gratification are how you win arguments.
 
I would bet you've had this reaction off and on your whole life tri, and yes when i'm dealing with a total idiot i do tend to come down to the level of the idiot himself which in this case is the 7th grade. The writings on the wall try, everyone else can read it but you. When the vast majority can't stand you any longer, at what point do you realize everyone wants to argue with you cause your just an idiot, nothing more nothing else. Tri, do you ever come out of that bubble you have built around you. If you do come out sometime, read the writing on the wall please, it will be very sobering for you to see that your nothing but a nuisance on this site, and always have been.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-30-14 AT 10:14AM (MST)[p]>""Pride is a sin."? So I
>am a sinner for the
>fact I never filed for
>unemployment or any other unsustainable
>government entitlement or subsidy in
>my life, but speak about
>it? While we experience unimaginable
>federal debt levels? But your
>special interest group is a
>saint for greasing Troy Jackson?
>Really? And that makes you
>feel good about yourself?"
>
>
>What makes it a sin is
>the fact that you think
>your "experience" makes you righteous
>in these matters. You
>stand here and judge other
>people you don't know and
>think age and some BS
>form of entitlement are your
>credentials. I can tell
>you this I have a
>lot more respect for younger
>men like Mainer than I
>do some old man who
>sits around crying on his
>computer because he believes living
>more days entitles him to
>first position at the tit.
>
>

TriState - Got a question for you I always wondered. Do psychotic people know that they are indeed psychotic? I dated two psychos in the past, with similar conditions as yours. One mentioned she knew there was something wrong with her, but she didn't comprehend exactly what it was. So I am wondering if you are in fact cognizant of your own condition? Have you ever visited a psychiatrist to ask about it?

I have to really wonder when I see a guy with a business and professional looking website go posting such radical politically bizarre bull**** that you do on these forums. It's very typical for business owners to remain neutral when it comes to mixing politics with business. Anyone who is stupid enough to do that has little to gain. He is going to be pissing off a lot of people one way or the other, and likely damaging his business.

I realize the mentality of paid hunting culture in Texas. I lived in Austin 3 years, and Houston one, near your shop. My first hunt was at my FIL's lease on the Kenedy Ranch. It's true the folks there feel like it's an independent country, with the paid hunting culture. Every hunter I knew had to pay for a lease. However, I met a lot that still did not like it, and biatched about not having public land to hunt at. Some hunted out west DIY, or up to Kansas public. They would not be happy with your slanted political stance on things. Not one bit. Can you comprehend how stupid it is for you to rant like you do?

Do you think none of your customers or potential customers are reading your slanted political agenda, and posting negtive comments about you that may affect your business? And the thing about it, is there would be no need to slander you, and no legal recourse, as all that would be necessary would be to post your MM links and let them speak for themselves! Think, dude!

http://www.texashuntfish.com/app/view/Post/32586/Taxidermist-Lost-My-Cape-This-Year


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
Coues,

That's the difference between you and me. You are worried about who likes you and whether you are hated. I worry about whether I do what is right. I am trying to do what's best for the wildlife while you worry about whether people on an internet forum agree with you. That's why you are still in the 7th grade. I like how your omniscience has projected you from speaking about all hunters feelings that go to Mexico to now you decide the feelings of all the people on a website. Is there no end to your narcissism?

Why don't you go back and try and prove that the person who pays $1500 for a tag is receiving welfare while the people that get the same tag for $52 are just good sportsmen? Maybe your deep knowledge of feelings will answer that for us all.
 
>Coues,
>
>That's the difference between you and
>me. You are worried
>about who likes you and
>whether you are hated.
>I worry about whether I
>do what is right.
>I am trying to do
>what's best for the wildlife
>while you worry about whether
>people on an internet forum
>agree with you. That's
>why you are still in
>the 7th grade. I
>like how your omniscience has
>projected you from speaking about
>all hunters feelings that go
>to Mexico to now you
>decide the feelings of all
>the people on a website.
> Is there no end
>to your narcissism?
>
>Why don't you go back and
>try and prove that the
>person who pays $1500 for
>a tag is receiving welfare
>while the people that get
>the same tag for $52
>are just good sportsmen?
>Maybe your deep knowledge of
>feelings will answer that for
>us all.

Tri i have more real friends than i can shake a stick at, and i don't need anymore myself. I could care less about if someone on this site likes me or doesn't like me, but if several hundred on this site attacked me and argued with just about every post i made like they do with your posts, i would probably take a good hard look at myself in the mirror. I don't care if everyone agrees with me on what i post on here cause i know i'm also wrong with some of my theories. If i came on here and said the sky is black, but it's actually sunny outside, and everyone else argued with me that the sky isn't black but blue instead, i would go get tested for color blindness. You instead will argue till you piss almost everyone off that it's actually black and everyone else is wrong. As for mexico, i keep track of a lot of what goes happens down there cause i'm actually down there seeing it in person. How about you tri, are your observations based on eyewitness accounting, or just hear say? When i talk to several guides down in mexico either down there in person or on the phone and get the real scoop either thru the guides or thru my own eyes down there i think i can at least form a valued opinion of mexico, how about you tri? Where you down there or just blasting off about what you heard, cause that's hear say and not fact bud. I certainly am far from knowing everything about hunting, no doubt about it, but when i see the report card from mexico every year either in person or actually down there , or thru talking to the guides down there i know personally, i can form a pretty accurate opinion. How about you tri, where does your opinion come from a seat in your office in texas. Sorry your still a total idiot. Get tested for color blindness or idiot blindness. Please do this for all of our sake so we can enjoy this site that much more.
 
Dude do you realize you just claimed all of YOUR knowledge to be fact because you talk to people in Mexico????? Do you realize THATS HEARSAY? Guess what slick I TALK TO PEOPLE IN MEXICO! Mind you I am not going to get off my meds and start claiming my hearsay to be fact while yours is just hearsay. Did you notice how often you used the word "everyone" in that last post. Also how several hundred people argue with me on these threads? DO you know how to count? Do you have any concept of math? You obviously don't know how to read. You claimed I said Utah had a better system than yours. I noticed you are dodging all the other examples I have given that shoot your "facts" to pieces. I want you to quit dodging the question I asked you.

How can people logically call someone else paying $1500 for a moose tag welfare recipients while they only have to pay $52? Quit being a gutless dodger trying to make this thread about me and defend your logic.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-30-14 AT 01:08PM (MST)[p]What part of being down there physically didnt you understand tri, i was there as for the last 10 years physically. I was driving ranch to ranch and talking to the guides with their clients in camp physically. I was guiding also down there. Many of my friends were guiding there also, and i would call them and check in with them, even though i could have driven down the road 30 miles and talked in person. I'm not dodging anything with regards to your inflated tag price you mentioned compared to the draw price. Where does the 1500 go tri, its not towards wildlife is it, but someones pocket. Tri just look back at 90 percent of your posts and look at the general reaction to them, or did you find out a way to block all those reactions out of your memory. That's another sad defense cause it all here for all to see. Try reading back it won't be difficult to find more than you can count. Physical, first hand knowledge is not hear say, come back to reality again tri, your still an idiot of idiots. Tri, if you would have actually been down there, all it would have taken was a drive to the hermosillo airport to drop off a client, and there was usually several as in 10 or more waiting to take off back to the states. Physically talking to them at the airport and hearing from their own mouths about several other operations i don't know anything about is not hear say. Seeing 10 or more in line in hermosillo at the airport and actually witnessing just a couple mediocre bucks out of 10 hunters isn't hear say. What's next that i will have to re explain to you thru factual eye witness accounts. Hear say is everything that comes out of a trolls mouth from texas, at least that's what the hunters dictionary said.
 
Talking to a ranch owner in Mexico is not an evaluation of a wildlife model. IT IS EXACTLY HEARSAY. Talking to people doesn't make your ideas fact.

If $1500 is just putting money in someone's pocket so to speak then so is paying the $52. You are still dodging the question which is directly connected to this thread topic. The money is being paid to the same agency. Where is the logic in saying a man that pays $1500 for a tag is getting welfare while a man that pays $52 is not? The check gets written to the same state agency.
 
Tri, i'm done with you. Next time you go to the movies or dinner or any event for that matter, and someone cuts in line right in front of you and bribes the person in charge of the line, and your left hanging there while they close the doors cause that guy that bribed was the last person the venue was going to let in, get back with me. Then you will understand. Lets have a vote on a thread on here, and it's a yes or no answer to the easy question of tri being an idiot. Tri, what do you think the results would be?
 
You think people don't "cut in line" in front of me???? They do all the time. And guess what. I DON'T CARE. If the people running the theatre want his money more than mine I don't have a single issue with it. Guess what. I can spend my money elsewhere. That's right. They get to decide who they want to do business with and I get to decide who gets my money. Unlike YOU I do not have deep seated issues with whether people accept me. This is why you have spent the past 48 hours arguing about how much people don't like me.

I don't care how many people like or dislike me. I don't care who likes or dislikes you. I don't care if people cut in line. These are all things that I grew out of in elementary school. You don't get it. When someone cuts in line %99 of everybody think they need to cry. %1 decides they will be the people that make the line. That same %99 sit and worry day and night whether they are accepted and that same %1 knows that people who want to get ahead will HAVE to accept them or deal with the consequences.

All this and you still dodged the question. You are so worried about getting the home coming queen vote you can't even be a man and answer a question.
 
Since it takes several tries to bust thru your bubble tri, i will explain why i'm arguing with you other than you being a flat out nuisance. You repeatedly put down the general public on this site that put in the state drawings for what they pay. You have used every angle verbally to attack anyone and everyone who puts in the standard way and doesn't have to pay the bribe charge of a ton of money . It's this new virus being pushed on us all that you purport to be the wave of the future i'm arguing with you about. Who proved that we need all this new money to keep hunting the way it is. How many more millions do we have to waste trying to get 1 extra 200 inch buck to show up on the winter range next year. It's a nifty little lie being sold to us all, and you obviously bit it hook line and sinker. I'm not going to feel guilty, nor should the other 99 percent who do it the right way when it comes to obtaining tags. I will never buy the greedy position that you hold up to be the real way of doing things. If we want hunting to lose most of its supporters then getting rid of the general public for a few rich guys is the way to go. Pricing almost everyone out of the game opportunity wise widdles down the numbers of people that we need to keep hunting around. How will a 15 year old ever get to hunt in 10 years if we go the way you want it to go. Lets get rid of all the masses that we need to support hunting in favor of just a few rich. This sounds great for the future of hunting for us all including the rich, not!! If you keep calling everyone names who does it the way it's been done for 80 years expect to get called out chief, time and time again. Tri its obvious you could care less what future clients of your studio might think, or anyone else you deal with, trust me its painfully obvious. Nothing is a popularity contest here, but trust me when you eventually get a few friends tri, you will see its nice to at least be respected in the smallest way, something you wouldn't know anything about on here and never will. I promise i'm not seeking your approval tri, and i wouldn't accept it if it came my way.
 
One more thing tri troll, i disagree completely with the genesis of your entire argument with regards to the future of hunting needing so much extra money to some how help hunting itself. I totally disagree that some how all the animals will suffer in the future if we don't all of a sudden start selling of the same animals to the highest bidder. That is why i'm not answering your question you want answered so badly, cause the whole premise of your argument is faulted from the get go. We don't need 1500 hundred dollar tags available period unless people like you have figured out a way to scam some of that money back for yourselves, and your selfish groups you support. Instead of defending myself against your stupid rants, i just chalk it up to another greedy attempt to grab more money. Meanwhile the masses are supposed to sit back and be called name after name by you cause the masses realize a money generating scam when they see one. Why don't you go back to the genesis of your argument and defend your position of the animals some how all of a sudden needing so much money to survive, that's a better one for you to answer, instead of you trying to trap me in a flawed argument from the get go. When you call people names and degrade them, people bite back or at least i do. Come on tri, your a jack of all trades including mexico(even though you probably never go there), so please explain how all the animals need so much money to exist now? You and your groups can try all you want in selling the big lie to game and fish agencies across the U.S. and waving dollars in their face will def corrupt them cause greed is greed. Then after scamming game and fish agencies, you feel like the next group to scam is the general public. Yes the rich guys will jump on the opp. to buy tags, all sold to everyone thru a greedy lie.
 
Habitat management costs money. Game wardens cost money. Equipment, automobiles, and helicopters cost money. Biologists cost money. Habitat analysis costs money. Disease studies cost money. ALL WILDLIFE STUDIES AND MANAGEMENT COST MONEY! Almost every state wildlife agency literally can't expand help for the general public or hunters because they are on the verge of not having any more money. And here is the main point you can't get through your skull. All those people who aren't hunters, they don't give a flying flip about your moose because all it will do is COST them money. You have devalued your resource to the point that hardly anyone outside of your circle cares about those smelly critters. They literally can't see ANY value in a moose. Sure they like to see a picture of a moose but when the state legislature has ten million extra dollars to spend and their choice is education, or wildlife which do you think is going to get the money? The kids that will grow up to be voters and actually are valued greatly or a bunch of moose that are valued at $52 a piece.

You want to talk about how I insult people on a post that was started by someone else calling a bunch of other hard working men and women WELFARE recipients. HOW THE HECK DO YOU THINK PEOPLE SHOULD REACT TO THAT? I didn't notice you standing up for those people when someone decided to insult them. Don't get on here now and think you can take some kind of high road about me insulting people on here. You literally devoted several posts to nothing more than trash talking another person just because I disagreed with the stance that you should be able to bash working Americans.

Now you have tried to state this is why you don't have the balls to defend the logic of one man calling these other men welfare recipients while he pays 20 times less for the same product.
 
I totally disagree with your whole premise tri. There would be way more money generated by raising prices on thousands and thousands of applicants, than the welfare tags. I don't think calling them welfare tags is a put down, cause that's just what they are. Heck i need another real estate deal right now, and since it isn't coming my way, maybe the government could issue me a welfare tag to sell just because. Flawed from the get go again tri!!! What are we going to do tri when there are only a 1000 rich people left to vote for hunting agenda cause their the only ones left hunting anymore. Since we are trying as hard as possible to get rid of the masses, who will be left to vote for hunting agenda when no one hunts anymore cause of the welfare system taking hold now. mMasses vote not money. Also i'm trying to figure out why our wildlife here in arizona are doing better than the welfare states. Our quality has gone thru the roof in the last 15 years or so, please explain this tri. I'm sure your an arizona jack of all trades kinda dude since you have all the answers, and remember just like mexico, i actually have experience here, unlike you and your hear say facts. You would think that because we in az shot down the big lie bill a couple of years ago, that we are going to hell in a hand basket. Somehow, some way our animals don't need the welfare tags, please explain this anomaly since your so smart.
 
Don't piss down my collar and tell me it's rain. There is nothing positive about calling it welfare tags. You keep living in fairy land with how good you think it is while you have a tag in your hand . But you won't say whether the opportunity you have is as good as what your father had. And you sure can't say with a straight face that your kids will have it as good as you have.

If you say you want to jack the prices on the tags I am not going to argue one bit. Go for it. I am not fighting it. Lets start at 10000$. Seems to be the number all these other guys have thrown around this thread. Time to pay for your hobby.

As for whether your state is so special you are still missing the point. YOUR DRAWN TAG IS A WELFARE TAG! Just because you like it doesn't mean it isn't what it is.

So quit dodging and answer logically. Why is a guy that buys a tag for 20 times what you can buy it for getting welfare and you aren't.

By the way 1000 evil rich people buying tags for $1500 is a lot more important for the protection of the resource than 20000 people buying a tag for $52. If you knew anything about business you would see that is a definite fiscal advantage. Nobody gives a flying flip if you are or are not a hunter anymore once there is no money to pay for your hobby.
 
Tri was putting up a pretty good fight but couse just gave him the knock out punches with posts 93,94 and96.
Winner- cousmagnet
 

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