Moving to "NO CARCASS TAGS"

J

JFWRC

Very Active Member
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Just curious to "thoughts" out there.

per agenda briefing #11.
Under current rule, all big game and turkey hunters are issued a separate carcass tag or tags and that must remain attached to the carcass while it is in any vehicle, left unattended in the field, in camp or while in place of storage. As the department moves toward a web-based license sales system, hunters will be able to print licenses on standard printer paper from any computer. A separate carcass tag will no longer be issued. In order to accommodate the new licensing process, all the big game, turkey and javalina species rules must be amended to delete the requirement for a separate carcass tag.

YESTERDAY-This was voted on in Lordsburg and passed unanimously.

Personally.....I think this is ripe for abuse. Example: The private land over the counter deer licenses are being used to hunt anywhere according to folks on both sides of the isle. With yesterday's vote, now we can just print the license up.

Some of us have been trying to think of a way to get the private land deer over the counter license back under some sane control. Giving carcass tags to landowners to give to hunters was a thought made by one smart person out there. I thought that was a good idea......now we are at Katy Bar The Door.

With no watermark, how does one control this process? Hoping some of you out there can help me see the benefit of this other than making it easier on licensing admin by the department.

Some out there may think this is a smart move......no big deal. I need help understanding that thought process. Can someone shed some light?
 
I think if people want to cheat they are going to find a way to try and cheat regardless. Having visible enforcement in the field makes them think twice and is the best deterrent we can have. That and us using the poaching hotlines and policing ourselves when afield and see questionable activity.

If someone is going to outlaw like you described, they are going to outlaw anyway, carcass tag or no. There are law abiding ethical sportsmen and then there are cheaters/poachers, I am in favor of less hoops to jump through for ethical sportsmen. Get more enforcement in the field and you'll curb poaching, changing the rules won't do anything if the budget/resources arent' there to make people follow the ones already in place or the new ones.
 
The carcass tag issue is irrelivant. +1 on what doenob said. The real issue we need to tackle is this idiotic over the counter private land deer tag crap. G&F need to get rid of it or figure out a way to police it. IMO the only way this can work is for G&F to acutually survey private ranches and determine whether or not there are even any deer on the ranch. Then give the landowner the APPROPRIATE number of liscences for them to sell to whoever they want. The number of tag validated for the youth hunts up north is crazy! People have even stopped putting in for the draw because they just go buy their tag and hunt where ever they want. How much private land in unit 6 actually has deer on it? Little to none! Yet for the rifle hunt with only 100 tags the unit is a zoo?!?! "Private land only bro, just go buy it at Walmart, if you cant find deer in 6 go to 5B bro, or wait for the youth hunt in 5B bro, you can take your nephew and hunt the rut bro!" The Pecos country is just as bad. If you have deer on your land by all means shoot the hell out of them, I could give a rats a$$, but stick to your property...
 
About 5 years ago I got a private land deer tag at Walmart.

At the time, the clerk asked my how many I wanted. He would have written me up several.

Just saying.

Private land deer tags need some perimeters.

Carcass tag replacement. What comes to mind is reporting by computer or phone call within 72 hours that your tag is filled. Some day maybe even gps coordinates could be required on a private deer tag to make sure that it was actually private land.
Just brainstorming. Have not thought it all the way through, but, I know that guys with private deer and elk tags go way off private land sometimes and that needs to be controlled.
 
>The carcass tag issue is irrelivant.
> +1 on what doenob
>said. The real issue
>we need to tackle is
>this idiotic over the counter
>private land deer tag crap.
> G&F need to get
>rid of it or figure
>out a way to police
>it. IMO the only
>way this can work is
>for G&F to acutually survey
>private ranches and determine whether
>or not there are even
>any deer on the ranch.
> Then give the landowner
>the APPROPRIATE number of liscences
>for them to sell to
>whoever they want. The
>number of tag validated for
>the youth hunts up north
>is crazy! People have
>even stopped putting in for
>the draw because they just
>go buy their tag and
>hunt where ever they want.
> How much private land
>in unit 6 actually has
>deer on it? Little to
>none! Yet for the
>rifle hunt with only 100
>tags the unit is a
>zoo?!?! "Private land only
>bro, just go buy it
>at Walmart, if you cant
>find deer in 6 go
>to 5B bro, or wait
>for the youth hunt in
>5B bro, you can take
>your nephew and hunt the
>rut bro!" The Pecos
>country is just as bad.
> If you have deer
>on your land by all
>means shoot the hell out
>of them, I could give
>a rats a$$, but stick
>to your property...


Wes,

I agree 100% with you....especially the part about policing the land owner system. I don't feel they should get rid of them, but I feel they should severely limit them, do their recon as they do for the elk land owners permits, and most of all....get out in the field and check licenses!

Remember the antler point restriction from a few years back, that basically made fork horns illegal? I heard many stories of forkies left dead, while the hunters continued their hunts. Is the problem with the rules? Even the best "system" out there will still be put to the test by those hell bent on defeating it for their own gain.

That being said, I myself have benefited from the land owner process. The last 4 years I have stuck to my ranch (once in 5B....tiny ranch, only a 1/4 section and I saw a giant buck twice while scouting, nothing during the hunt, the other three times was a much larger ranch in unit 6) and finally this year I connected with one in unit 6, but it took me three years to be able to pull the trigger. So....there is private land in unit 6 that has deer. I will admit that it is a large ranch though.

It took me 19 years to draw my first elk license. I used to put in for Unit 6 when it was very popular and a tough draw. I got fed up and started putting in for Unit 51. I remember checking the draw odds after my first year of applying to 51 and discovered that there were 200 tags and 206 applicants tht year....I was one of the six that didn't draw. Anyhow, it took me 19 years to draw a semi-popular unit, yet I see people that "get to" hunt the Gila EVERY YEAR. How does that happen? I do seek out rancher's permits when I don't draw, but I have stuck to my ranch each and every time, with much failure to show for it...all the while witnessing what you've described above. How about all of the trucks up in 2b and 2c during the deer hunts, with 4 or more guys inside, each one with a rifle?!? One of the toughest deer hunts to draw in the country, yet there seems to be an awful lot of people that are acquainted with one another that seem to get to hunt it together every year!

Hopefully our Barbary hunt won't be so bad in Feb!
 
I hate this idea, just opens the door for more abuse!!!But with only 50 wardens for the entire state don't think it will hurt thing's any worse than they are already!!!!
 
JACOB2006....

I have heard many say this is no big deal. I think it is. Now the guys that are abusing the private land deer licenses just make photo copies and go again.

Our Coalition group really dropped the ball on this one. We all looked at the briefings to late and I personally thought this was a discussion item and not an action item. Most of us that communicated DID NOT like the idea......but we did not get to the meeting to say "What are you thinking, are you nuts???"

We really do need more officers......unfortunately money to fund FTE's is not really there. The department is faced with selling as many licenses as it can to meet their budgetary needs. With dwindling antelope herds and deer herds hit like they are, I am very concerned for our wildlife populations. They keep indicating herds are increasing......I'm saying BS on that one.

Jim
www.newmexicobiggamehunting.com
 
Jim I agree but maybe they should cut some of the office personnel and hire more wardens, poaching in this state is out of control. How can anyone get caught when you have one officer for over 2000 miles, and the odds of him even working when the violations happen.
As for no carcass tags Nm will become a one animal per trip to the mountain until they get checked!!!!
 
"As for no carcass tags Nm will become a one animal per trip to the mountain until they get checked!!!!"

Amen......Or until all the hunting is gone....

Jim
 
Paul-conversations with folks in charge don't want to admit numbers are down and that they should cut hunts back......I have heard from folks that recruitment was good in some areas and the antelope herd is increasing. There is not an issue with over the counter private land deer license sales.....yes the criminals will cheat but we'll catch them.

Its about license sales......

But you are right, I have not seen anyone put in writing that deer and antelope herds are increasing. Thanks for the correction.

Jim
 
Glad you showed back up with your negative response.
as usual.

Let me guess you never left the truck,And none of your family got a kill.
 
I thought your dad drew a 2C muzzy tag?Yes it is a hunt.
Like most hunts in NM.Let me guess Jim ruined 2C WAH,WAH WAH.
 
Why dont you head back to the bar.Dip shi*t.

If you dont have a problem with me,I sure have one with you.

Miguel... The Internet Cowboy
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-12 AT 06:36AM (MST)[p]Dear Internet Cowboy-I hate to admit it but Mark is right. You see one of my many companies supplies the paper to the department that will no longer need carcass tags. Our stock value is going to take a bit hit once this info gets out to the Nasdaq. Worse is that my company that supplies the paper gets the trees from one of my many ranches that we hoard elk on and sell for huge $$$$$'s.

All cynicism aside, Mark and I go back to the early 90's where I supported the Mt. Taylor USFS-L Bar exchange. At one point during the exchange I thought that Mark and I were agreeing to disagree, but moving on. I supported the Whites Peak exchange as well, sorry to those that believed it was wrong. Boundary disputes and folks yelling at each other with guns is not good. Trespassing is wrong. Ranchers locking up UW ranches is wrong. Ranchers telling hunters they need to ask permission to hunt State Trust land is wrong.Posting State and BLM land is wrong. All needs to be cleaned up.

Anyway, he has not let it go, even though the exchange was very positive for many law enforcement and resource management reasons. I have offered to pay for his therapy....even go with him if need be.

However, I think you have tapped something that could help and I am so shallow not to see it. Mark needs help hunting. I guess he just can't seal the deal.

IC-aka crazymaes, lets team up and get Mark into an application where he can actually draw (he's mentioned that he cannot seem to draw, although it will be without a carcass tag), then lets take him hunting and help him get something. That's what he needs, some form of success in his life.

How bout it Mark, will you allow us to take you hunting "you life long boosom buddy you?"

Signed

Jim $$$$$$
 
I can't see the real issue here.. Isn't the License number like a watermark? It should be a unique number... also, do we know if you can go in and on the same account print multiple LO tags?

These Unlimited tags have always been a bad idea... How can you manage herds when you can't control the number of tags allocated????

J
 
Jason the problem is without a tag nothing gets marked as a filled tag, so when you get home and are not checked there's no prof and nothing stopping you from returning to the field.
 
Does anyone know if any other western state has a carcass tag that you do not record the date of kill on it??

I cannot think of any, and i have hunted in most of them.
 
From what I read you still have to notch your license somehow. So if you get checked in the field with an animal and you don't have your license notched then it would be the same as today. However my concern is the printing of duplicate licenses. Kill something, take it home, print another license and go back.

Travis
 
I like the online license system. I lost my son's general license and it was simple to reprint a copy so we could go duck hunting.

As far as big game is concerned I think some type of carcass tag should be required.

I agree with Jimbo that this is a problem. I've thought about it for awhile now and I still have't thought of a solution without signifigant loopholes that would solve both issues of keeping the online license and a one time use, difficult to duplicate carcass tag.

How about this; no more land owner tags period? Let the G&F Manage the herds/number of tags per unit based on sound science and the outfitters can still negotiate with the landowners to secure the hunting rights to the properties and sell their services and hunting locals to the lucky hunter who drew in the lotery system...? A list of names of the successfully drawn hunters is already available to the outfitters, so why not use that list to try and solicit your services?
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-12 AT 11:04PM (MST)[p]I see no problem with printing your own LE tags. You still have to draw the license. I can buy a duplicate carcass tag up here for $5. If you're going to keep hunting till you get checked, printing your own tag won't make any difference.

The problem is OTC Deer tags that are only valid on private land, and have no method for forcing LO validation.


///////////////

F. Big game and turkey: For licensed hunters for any big game species or turkey, the licensee killing the animal shall immediately punch or completely fill in (black out) the area designated for the appropriate species on the license. Immediately upon arriving at a vehicle, camp or a place of
storage, the licensee must permanently fill in the proper date and time of kill on their license.

(1) The properly punched or blacked out license shall be attached or accompany the carcass while the carcass is left unattended in any vehicle, field, or while it is in camp or at a residence or other place of storage. The punched or blacked out license may be removed from the carcass while the carcass is being removed from the field to a camp or vehicle. In situations where numerous trips are required to remove the carcass from the field, the punched or blacked out license shall remain attached to that portion of the carcass left unattended in a camp or vehicle.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-12 AT 09:48AM (MST)[p]There seems to be delay in the forum... So I posted twice.
J
 
I just got a report from some of our people that were at the meeting.. Overall, I think that the general feeling is that the dept could have done a better job explaining what the end-goal is but that it is a step in the right direction..

I think they are going to need to make some sort of allowances for multiple animals on one tag.. Like Turkeys and Lions..

I guess it took a few a side-bar questions to pull out the details from the Dept but I think that overall it will be a good thing and that in the end it will reduce the ability to fake licenses, it will be a ton more efficient, and the dept a $400,000/year estimate of savings per year.

Like many have said, those that are going to try and cheat the system are still going to try and find a way to do it but those that aren't cheating the system are not going to be enticed to by the new system

J-
 
I know my archery antelope "tag" in Nebraska was just a printed piece of 8x12 paper. You were supposed to notch out the date, but the hunter was supposed to carry it, not required to attach anything to the carcass.

CO, SD, TX, NM all have had carcass tags in the past.

The real answer to fixing tag abuse in NM is to make all LO tags RO tags, no more unit wide anything.
 
I too agree that the land owner tags should be ranch only. Then if they are having a problem with wildlife destroying thier crops or hay then use the depervation/population management program the way it should be used. To my knowledge general only oryx depervation hunters are called up. But if the normal NM residents that didn't draw got a call from the game and fish to harvest an elk, most of us would make that trip. Looks like a win- win other than the land owners.

Pros: the land owners get the problems taken care off, dispite loosing top dollar for elk tags. the real problem is elk eating thier crops, tear up the fence, etc.
Unsucessful NM residnets can get called up and hunt as well as a lot cheaper (just a tag vs a tag plus land owner fee)
Game and fish just has to call a few people to okay the hunt, rather than the drawn out ordeal of compensating/preventing the "problem herd of elk" from destroying the area.

Just a question do any of you guys know of anyone who got called up to elk a "problem elk herd" from the game and fish?

Just my thoughts. PS i guess well have to wait for more from the NMDGF on the carcass tags. But think that is a bad idea as well. Just like a lock, keeps honest people honest. People that want to break the rules will still do it.
 
"Jim... Would support a limited draw for private land deer licenses even if it does not require landowner permission prior to application?"

I think the key to your question is "if it does not require landowner permission". My answer is NO. We've been here before in this question Jason and if you don't remember my why not, I will point to Colorado do this in the mid 90's in elk units. They "the commission" assumed folks that drew the public land licenses would be able to negitiate access to the private land. Did not happen as the they planned. Several large ranches chose not to allow folks they did not know nor were not guided on their property.....thier choice. They cited that they wanted folks they know on their places or someone to make sure all went well in terms of rules (someone to be accountable)in order to hunt their private land. Bottom line is herds spent more time on this santuaries and herds exploded where the sustained harvest for the unit was not attained........thus causing more problems......Colorado then went back to their unlimited licenses to both residents and non residents and to their limited landowner permit system they have now.....They also came up with Ranching for Wildlife.

Please know that I am speaking for myself. However, I do believe that farmers and ranchers in this state would NOT support your proposal either. I am pretty sure this idea was floated a couple of years ago when looking at revamping A+ and this one went down in flames.

Jim
www.newmexicobiggamehunting.com
 
Interesting... IF you have to go thru the LO then you will stand to make money because you broker tags... Also if you have unlimited licenses that don't need to go thru a draw then you can get unlimited brokerage fees.

I get it, it is you business.

and I did some research... CO hasn't tried a Private Land Only Draw.. You said people that drew public land license would be able to get private land access??? I am not sure what you are talking about. Also in CO the program they have there for brokering licenses is tiny compared to NM and most private lands are hunted with licenses that are not part of ranching for wildlife.

And the idea of it being "floated" when they were revamping A+ is wrong... They didn't... I am not sure where you got that from...

And just to clarify... Of course everyone needs permission to hunt private land...
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-12 AT 01:18PM (MST)[p]We have a multitude of hunts that are in units nearing 100% pvt land as well as hunts only valid on pvt land. They are flagged in the regs as such and with warnings about needing permission prior to applying, although you can apply without that permission.

Our carcass tags have the hunt number and all pertinant info included. I havent seen seen a description yet of what the printable license will include.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-12 AT 06:45PM (MST)[p]Jason-

I knew your question was a setup. My bad....you win.

To Clarify-----Colorado went 100% public draw, both public and private in some units in the early 90's. This was offered up as a discussion item when I was on a LO committee working with the department. They changed back after populations exploded because no one was hunting the private land.They cited there was "no sustained harvest on the private." They needed dead animals on private. Landowners were not letting folks they did not know on there property.

To Clarify....was there not a proposal( 1 of the 3 or 4) during the last A+ fiasco to go 100% draw on antelope where negotiating access was the goal? If I am wrong...sorry. I thought there was.

I started this topic out on carcass tags and questioned the wisdom of going without them. I do believe there is tremendous abuse in the current private deer system where unlimited private licenses are sold at Wal-Mart. There are ways to stop the abuse and LO are a part of it. I think giving carcass tags to LO's fi is a way for them to assure they know who is on the ranch and they should have the tag before they buy the license at a DEPARTMENT OFFICE, like barbary.

Can we get back to the topic? Merry Christmas Jason!
 
It wasn't a setup I just want to make sure the facts get out there... We have way to much heresy and rumors floating around to try and push an agenda.

J-
 
>I started this topic out on
>carcass tags and questioned the
>wisdom of going without them.
>I do believe there is
>tremendous abuse in the current
>private deer system where unlimited
>private licenses are sold at
>Wal-Mart. There are ways to
>stop the abuse and LO
>are a part of it.
>I think giving carcass tags
>to LO's fi is a
>way for them to assure
>they know who is on
>the ranch and they should
>have the tag before they
>buy the license at a
>DEPARTMENT OFFICE, like barbary.
________________________________________

I didn't feel like I got off topic, not sure who you're referring to. I would like your feedback on my first comment if it's not too much to ask. You can always call me to discuss.

Anyway, I would support your solution posted above, but it is still a band-aid to a bigger issue.

Merry Christmas to all my NM brothers!
 

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