nebo1200

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

What happened last night? I would appreciate an explanation of why you voted to murder 3600 cow elk on the Wasatch. The only person that voted no was Jon Bair. You guys have to be absolutely out of your mind!!!


It's always an adventure!!!

 

[2_Point]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-20-11 AT 01:00PM (MST)[p]Now we are murdering animals? What a great message to proclaim to the world. HUNTERS ARE MURDERS! I hear PETA uses those same phrases.

That is some quality spinning of numbers. The success rates will come in around 60% so they voted to kill 2,160 cows, even though they are 2,700 elk over their desired herd size before the calves are even born.

 

[FHMAN13]

I think it was all those post about how the Wasatch was the best unit in the state. I just have to give you a hard time Jim. I think your right they are crazy for Giving that many cow tags out. Hey i do remember that you are not the only one that said it was one of the best units in the state so thats why they have to kill it off.

 

[rackmagic]

Jim, What I want to know is. If it is so cost prohibitive to fly an entire unit,and that is the DNR position at least a week ago. Then last night we were told that they flew over every bush and threw every canyon. Sightability would have been at it's highest ever. Snow levels pushed them lower. How can they just Blatenly guess? 2007, 5000 and change. 2008, 5000 and change. 2009 5000 and change. Three year average flexuation in the few hundreds. Then 2010 explosion!!!!!!7700 plus sounds like a guess to me. If we are over planned objective. INCREASE THE OBJECTIVE!!!!!!! Lets See Manti 11500 Elk. 680 cow elk tags.
Wasatch 7700 elk 3325 Cows.

 

[Prism]

The Wasatch has always been kind of a guinea pig. I can remember not long ago they were killing 1000 plus does. For whatever reason it seems to get used and abused like no other unit.

If I had to choose between the 1000 doe killer hunts and 3600 cow land carp I'd vote for 7200 cow land carp ;-)

Are they gonna let the cow hunters hunt during all of the other hunts if they have a tag for that season? I feel for the LE archery and muzzleloader guys if they do. That'd be a CIRCUS!

 

[Prism]

???

If we're wanting to kill a bunch more elk why not bring the late hunt back??? Might actually be a snatch tag worth having.

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

Excuse me for being a little harsh for your ears 2-point. I should have used the word SLAUGHTER! Apparently you're either to young to remember or not of this planet when the Fish Lake SLAUGHTER/MURDER (or whatever the hell you want to call it) happened. That is EXACTLY what it was and it is exactly what this Wasatch tag alotment is going to be. Where do you get your numbers from? How many of those cows do you think will be pregnant? You don'just shoot "2160 cows". For every cow you kill that's pregnant go ahead and add on another one. You apparently are spinning backwards on your numbers.


It's always an adventure!!!

 

[B_BOP_A_LU_LU]

Easy Jim!

These Boys Run numbers just like Pro!

Now they are so f'n desperate they are counting & projecting Calf crop numbers before they even hit the ground,GEEZUS!

You can see the Plan!

Same Plan they tried on Fish Lake!

Kind of the same Plan they've tried on Anthro!

I shake my head every time I hear them say:We'll have 'X' amount of Calves next year,ya them Milk on their Lipps Animals are gonna be some real Trophies with these New 'JOKE' age objectives plans,WAFJ!

The Wasatch was already a Circus,it'll be a real f'n JOKE now!

Think I'll agree with AWLB!

Shootin a Pregnant Cow in November,December & January is MURDERING!

When the TARDville Elk herd is shot to sshit it won't be from the ole cat killing 2 or 3 Elk with one Pull of the Trigger in December or January!





For GAWDS Sakes Guys,We Got Kids on this Site,Some of them are 65 years Old!

I don't care if they're big or small!
If they throw lead I like em all!

 

[Cam@strawberry]

Boy you missed it Jim there were some real wing dinger comments in the rac.......

Byron Gunderson: 'I thought we were talkin bout deer, who cares about elk lets just kill a few hundred more maybe the deer will come back then'

Anis: 'there is no anomaly in the numbers, we flew the unit this year'

us: 'so your other numbers were just wrong'

Anis 'uh ya we guessed and i guess we were wrong' ROFL

Nother Rac member 'when are we gonna stop questioning the numbers and let the DNR do their jobs'

Mr. Bair 'well why don't we just go home then? Thats what your saying lets just rubberstamp everything and forget it.'

Chairman of the board: '11 votes for, 1 holdout'

Mr. Bair 'I'm not a hold out i'm opposed'

Personally i think he shoulda said moron but thats just me......

 

[2_Point]

You whizzes act like killing a pregnant cow in November is bad, but killing a pregnant cow in October is OK. "Good golly, Big John, theys gonna kill ever elk on the whole unit."

I know Prism won't want to hear that I agree with him, but we should kill some land carp and see if that helps the deer any.

I remember the whole Fish Lake issue, because I hunted the Unitas that year. Those unlimited cow tags were a joke.

The division said they flew the area and they counted a certain number of elk and added in 15% for any elk missed. That number came to 7700. Take off that 15% and they counted 6700 elk which is 1700 over the objective, not including the calves born this year. So either they are liars or they are not. Either it is a conspiracy or not.

I'd rather see them issue most of those cow tags for private land only and leave most of the public herd alone. Calling them murderers or claiming there are no elk on the unit seems a touch on the extreme side.

 

[Elkhunter96]

I agree with Jim, it is completely insane to destroy a quality elk herd because it is a little over objective all of a sudden. How about remove some of the cattle off the summer grounds. There are better alternatives. Raise the objective then. It is not like the elk are ruining the range up there and that unit can hold more than 7,700 elk on it.

As far as the deer herd, removing some elk is not going to make one bit of difference. They are dying off because of too many other issues. Look at Colorado, they have huge numbers of deer and elk sharing the same ranges and you don't hear them killing off the their successful elk herds just to test out a theory.

 

[Prism]

One has to wonder what Colorado's (and Utah's) mule deer herds would look like with fewer elk.

I've watched a lot of deer and elk together on the winter range. I've also watched elk basically run deer off of food sources during the winter.

They DO impact mule deer. How much impact can be debated.

 

[nebo12000]

As I recall the vote was 7-5 to keep it the same as last year. I voted with the reps from the Wasatch area. Figured they knew more about it than I did.

 

[Cam@strawberry]

Nebo, that was for the LE bull. That is like a marble in a swimming pool compared to the antlerless proposal, by far the scariest thing this unit has seen recently.....hope it works

 

[Prism]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-21-11 AT 04:48PM (MST)[p]So, does anyone know if the cow elk hunters will be able to fill their tags during the other hunts like in years past-the general archery, muzzleloader, rifle hunts?

Me thinks a few LE Wasatch elk tags are gonna be returned this year.

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

So what about the vote nebo12000? What made you so oblivious to what's going on in your own back yard that you voted for this mess.

By the way, I'm not saying that we don't need to kill a few cows. What I am saying is that if you kill that many cows in a unit and you're wrong (which you will be), it will take 10 years for it to recover if at all. Ask the Fishlake boys if they think their unit has recovered yet.


It's always an adventure!!!

 

[B_BOP_A_LU_LU]

>As I recall the vote was
>7-5 to keep it the
>same as last year. I
>voted with the reps from
>the Wasatch area. Figured they
>knew more about it than
>I did.

So?

You voted that way just because 'You Thought' they knew more about it than you?

Seems like alot of People that voted for Obama thought they were gonna get a Stimulus Check in the Mail too,Them very same People are still waitin for the Checks!


For GAWDS Sakes Guys,We Got Kids on this Site,Some of them are 65 years Old!

I don't care if they're big or small!
If they throw lead I like em all!

 

[Cam@strawberry]

ROFLMAO!!!!! bess thats funny stuff right there........

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

Colorado elk numbers - 300,000 + deer doing a lot better than than Utah. Utah elk numbers - 65,000 + - we all know what our deer herd is doing. Hard to compare and buy the elk argument. If 65,000+ elk are to blame for deer demise in Utah then Colorado shouldn't even have a pile of deer poop in the state with 300,000+. Just sayin.


It's always an adventure!!!

 

[rackmagic]

Seem's to me they are trying to satisfy those farmers in Heber valley. Well let me tell you. They will be doing the same thing that they did with the mule deer in current creek a few years back. The Fruitland land owners complained about the deer. they issued 1500 doe tags. well the problem with that, is if you turn off Hwy 40 and drive to nearly the dam, It is all private. Both sides of the road. Well you put 1500 tags right around the lake and still have the problem the next year in Fruitland. The deer never recovered. Well now history repeats itself with the elk. Because of a big winter, The elk moved off the CWMU's earlier into the valley. This is a knee jerk reaction to some complaints by land owners. 400 head of elk on little pole that don't migrate. 250 on three C's that don't migrate. and you will still have the problem next winter and you will decimate those elk left in public area's and still have the same problem. I hope your votes were worth it. I hope the sportsmen and women remember who is to blame for this!

 

[Cam@strawberry]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-21-11 AT 07:45PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-21-11 AT 07:40?PM (MST)

>I'd rather see them issue most
>of those cow tags for
>private land only and leave
>most of the public herd
>alone. Calling them murderers
>or claiming there are no
>elk on the unit seems
>a touch on the extreme
>side.

thats the point 2point, too the rac and the biologists they are just a statistic, its not about conservation its numbers and dollars when it hits that point it becomes murder. I'm glad that Jon Bair had the balls to say shut down the rubberstamp comment. I applaude guys like Jim who have the guts to call a guy out on a piss poor decision.......sportsman after sportsman got up and pled with the rac to not pass the proposal to no avail, the combined experience of those sportsman on the wasatch alone was greater than the combined AGE of the biologists........the only one who listened was that lowly SFW rac member the one that most belittle now......

As a sportsman i believe it is our responsibility to do what is best for the herd, now for those that spend their lives on the wasatch the count is wrong the recommendation is wrong and the whole thing is WRONG.....

Forgive me for being one of those whizzes but personally i think that my qualifications far out weigh the piece of paper hanging on the biologists wall that the RAC staked their decision on........my qualifications come from first hand daily experience not a prestigious university from some other state. Year after Year after Year of it.......it took me all of 10 minutes to do the basic math that they based their recommendation on......It will take ten years to fix the damage that will be done........

I have no qualms concerning the LE deal issue 10 tags issue 10,000 whatever is best i'm a sportsman thats what I believe in.....

 

[nebo12000]

I talked with the RAC rep from Midway at the meeting. He told me that there is no doubt there are an abundance of elk on the Wasatch, but that they aren't where they used to be. He said the problem is that they now reside on the private ground side of the unit and hunting has not been allowed or at best very limited. He said agreements with the landowners/ranches on that side should now open it up and that the herds that need to be reduced can now be hunted. Thats the rub with the whole Wasatch thing. The areas where most of the hunters have been able to get to has been overly harvested, while the private lands have only grown in population. Unfortunately, the DWR has to count the number of elk on the entire unit and base their tag numbers on that info. It never takes into consideration the number of elk on "unaccessible non-huntable land". It has been the same way on the Nebo for years. One side of the unit has just been hammered with antlerless tags and the bulk of the elk reside on unnaccessible private ground on the east side of the unit now. The Wasatch is just another example of that scenario. Nebo had finally gotten to the point that they needed to back off on anterless and LE bull tags. I flew a portion of the Nebo with the DWR a year ago and in 3 hours of flying we counted exactly 000 zero elk ! We flew over country that has had a good number elk in it for as long as I can remember.
I proposed a couple years ago that the unhuntable animals that reside on unaccessible ground not be included in the counts, but just like so many things the DWR by law has to abide by the management plan agreed upon by the various entities and the agreed upon number of animals on the unit and not where they reside.
The Wasatch antlerless tag numbers is only a reflection of what the reality is for the DWR. They are required by statute to adhere to the mangement plan. I don't always agree with the numbers and have voted against some of their proposals. Overall they do try and do the best they can with the information they get. I agree that sometimes they are slow to respond and change their numbers-- I think that is one reason why they are now having to manage deer numbers and tag numbers on 30 new deer units. Follow this link for the new deer proposals http://go.usa.gov/CI4

 

[Tworay]

nebo1200,

Any insight to the agreements with the landowners for access to those herds?

 

[nebo12000]

Not sure. Jay didn't give any additional info on that. Maybe the DWR would have some more info.

 

[Prism]

Cow tags have doubled on the Three C cwmu, I believe they remain about the same on Coyote Little Pole, which had a huge increase the prior year, both units run near 100% success on cows. There are a bunch of LO depredation tags given each year all over the eastern side of the valley. Infact I think I'm the only hunter that didn't harvest a cow last year. The elk are still pretty much untouchable on Wolf Creek, the Red Ledges, Timber Lakes and portions of the LDS girls camp, as well as some other private ground in the area. The elk also find refuge on the valley floor and pretty much have it figured out where they're not going to get shot at.

It's a fairly complex deal, and not a problem that is going to get solved in one season. Infact, as the valley continues to grow and become more developed it's likely to get worse.

I know it's not going to happen, but personally I'd like to see a feeding ground established like Jackson, deseret, Hardware ranch, etc... I believe it would be a win win for the valley and the elk. I've been shot down multiple times by the biologist, but it doesn't hurt to try. I think if it's going to happen private individuals are going to have to come together to get it done, cause the state sure isn't going to do it.

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

Thanks for backing up your vote Nebo. I appreciate it. Although I don't agree with the decision at all on the cow tags for the Wasatch, I agree with you 100% on the Nebo unfortunately I think that the DWR is too late. It will take years for that unit to recover. And the private land elk on the Nebo doesn't have as many elk on it as the DWR wants you to think.

Back to the Wasatch. So the divisions counts are off because they really haven't counted it exactly right for years. Now we have to slaughter a huge number of cows to get the numbers back in line that the DWR can't count right anyway? I promise that they haven't taken into consideration the possibility of another harsh winter or the fact that people with LE tags will now have a zoo to deal with. Those elk are going to get run all over that unit. The poor guys with LE archery tags are really going to get the brunt of the screw job it they are spreading them out over seasons. I guess I will wait and see how they spread them out. Either way it's wrong. They jumped in on the Fish Lake fiasco and now they are jumping in with over double the amount of tags on the Wasatch. Remember last year when they canceled that cow hunt on the Fish Lake? They were ready to do it again and finally listened to sportsman that said "we don't have that many elk on the unit". So, do I trust the DWR and their numbers? Not even in the slightest!


It's always an adventure!!!

 

[Prism]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-11 AT 01:47PM (MST)[p]I can't even start to wrap my head around the DWRs numbers.

Anyone willing to take an LE Wasatch tag this year better mentally prepare for a lot of company.

 

[Abiggerfish2fry]

Are the cow hunts going to be the same time as the Muzzy LE Elk hunt? That would be a real bummer if I draw that tag and they are!

 

[swbuckmaster]

Why can't there be a quota for cow elk where you have to call in evey day so you can't over harvest them. Easy fix to me

Anyone that draws one of these cow elk tag and needs help locating a cow in an area that does need to be thinned shoot me a pm and ill take you to them. I've seen the damage these elk are doing on summer and winter range. The deer are definatly taking a hit in this area from the elk.

By the way I think the cow tag numbers seem high and I only want the elk thinned in the right areas.

 

[Prism]

That's what I'm saying. If you're out there with a bunch of Muzz deer hunters that also have cow elk tags you're in for a treat. As are the le archers... Not too mention the Spike hunt, general rifle deer hunt, etc...

 

[Muley_73]

Bull,
You are pounding the right nail on the head!!!!!! The issues is whether the DWR can be trusted. They have proven time and again that they can not be trusted!

 

[rackmagic]

I'ts time for the RAC and the DNR to step aside and let a Private contractor in. Some one who knows how to Manage inventory, Manage money, make profit, and protect the business. we have entrusted the DNR and the process for to long. When you have a popular product, There are few business men who can't capitalize. When you take a snickers off the shelf, and you have so many thousand in line to take some more. you better make more shelf space!!! AND CREATE MORE SNICKER'S

 

[2lumpy]

WholeLot,

PM sent.

DC

 

[fatherofthree]

I think the Wasatch Unit is WAY too large for the DWR to manage effectively. There is no way to control where people hunt. You can feasibly have hunters concentrated in one particular area and really put a number on the herd, while having another area essentially untouched.

I don't think it needs to happen to the same extent of the deer going from 5 to 30 units, but the elk units need to be re-examined IMO. If you doubt this, go hang out in the waters on opening morning of the rifle elk hunt, then go see what's happening deep in the White River/Avintaquin area later on the same day. It's ubsurd they are in the same unit.

There are spots on the Wasatch where I used to hunt elk, and they were everywhere. It's too depressing for me to even attempt to hunt those areas for elk now, because they don't exist. Yet, the unit is WAY over objective?????

These high traffic areas are the only areas you need to worry about staggering hunts, OR make smaller more manageable units. The Manti is the same way. Reward the guy that wants to hunt the more remote/rugged area and punish the road hunter by making him draw that smaller more popular area.

Also, why are the Blues and the Elk Ridge not two elk units????? The deer are down there, just saying....