chrisamx
Active Member
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Interesting article on negative aspects of preference points.
https://blog.eastmans.com/the-myth-of-preference-points/
https://blog.eastmans.com/the-myth-of-preference-points/
Couldn’t agree more. All these guys complaining about the points systems should apply in Idaho and New Mexico every year. After 10 years of drawing nothing, and never being able to count on tags, they’ll scream that preference needs to be made for them.Points or no points, there is still going not enough critters to go around. Points at least reward people that have put time and money into the game.
I would rather see a person that has applied consistently for many years draw a coveted tag over a first time applicant.
People bag on Utah, But the 50/50 split is probably as fair as a point system can be.
This year I drew one of the best mule deer tags in the state with only 7 points. So people can still get lucky with a point system.
The Internet is the “worst thing ever implemented” for hunter recruitment, IMO..... Thanks Al Gore....Points are the worst thing ever implemented for hunter recruitment
More people applied for hunting permits this year than ever before. Next year there will be more applicants than this year. and more the next. Hunter recruitment isn't the problem with point systems.Points are the worst thing ever implemented for hunter recruitment
You’re trying to compare an anomaly year (COVID hunters) to others years? Let’s see what those numbers are when we’re done with this. Might surprise you.More people applied for hunting permits this year than ever before. Next year there will be more applicants than this year. and more the next. Hunter recruitment isn't the problem with point systems.
I hope we retain some of those folks. We need hunting to continue and although I hate point creep, I'd like to see hunting, as a whole, appreciated by new hunters.You’re trying to compare an anomaly year (COVID hunters) to others years? Let’s see what those numbers are when we’re done with this. Might surprise you.
Congratulations, it will probably be awesome.I like them this year, I burned 24 NR points for a Colorado Elk tag. Would never wait that long again, at the time I started it seemed like a good strategy, in hind sight it was foolish.
Someone is drawing them. One of my inlaws got a NM Elk tag three years ago and scored. On the other hand, I know many people with Max Points here in CA and statistically most will die with their max points for elk and sheep. The real winners are the States that keep people applying, no matter what.Congratulations, it will probably be awesome.
The other side, is, you could be applying for a top tag in Idaho, Nevada, or NM for 30 years, and never draw. Statistically you would never draw a top tag randomly in your life.
The 50 50 split is probably the best scenario, allowing most to feel that they have a chance at least. CA is the worst. Realistically in there is no chance outside of Max points, and the odd aren't that good for Max points holders either. But it does manage to create a haves - have nots division between hunters.Points or no points, there is still going not enough critters to go around. Points at least reward people that have put time and money into the game.
I would rather see a person that has applied consistently for many years draw a coveted tag over a first time applicant.
People bag on Utah, But the 50/50 split is probably as fair as a point system can be.
This year I drew one of the best mule deer tags in the state with only 7 points. So people can still get lucky with a point system.
California is literally the worst example of anything that could be considered rational..... Can’t protect Lions for 30 years, and have enough Deer to go around. They could have a random draw with no points, and the vast majority would die without ever getting a tag.Someone is drawing them. One of my inlaws got a NM Elk tag three years ago and scored. On the other hand, I know many people with Max Points here in CA and statistically most will die with their max points for elk and sheep. The real winners are the States that keep people applying, no matter what.
I would apply for more hunts in WY if the application actually came with a point.points aren't slowing anybody down.
OR apps were up 27% at the end of April with 2 weeks left for applying; a point state.
WY has had 1 species, see a decline in apps in recent memory; another points state.
4,000 people bought a WY sheep point last year giving them a single point; worthless in the draw as their only chance is a random tag.
5,000 bought that single worthless point for Moose.
Less than half of the NR buying points for Elk/Deer/Antelope at every point level actually applied for a hunt. Over 15,000 each for E/D/A bought their base level point (going from zero to one) and never even applied for a hunt.
AZ numbers are up and most buy the license every year as well as the points.
No....I wouldn’t.I bet all of you that don't like point systems would be the first in line to apply if Idaho and NM started having preference points. Nothing wrong with point systems when you have max points.
I drew NM oryx and Idaho moose tags the first year I applied. Many of you would say that is a good example why point systems are bad. My guide for the oryx hunt and my friend that helped on the moose hunt would disagree. Both have been applying for 20+ years without a tag and it doesn't look good for them next year either.
If your friend is from Idaho or New Mexico than more than likely he is against point schemes. Politicians that only look at $ have been trying to get a point program in this state (Idaho) for years and the residents have told them unilaterally NO each time. My daughter just drew a bighorn sheep tag here her first year of applying. I drew the same unit in 2006 the first year I applied. Since then I have been 0-15 on my Mtn. Goat tag, but I still believe that this is the "fairest" system. That said, I would entertain a "NR only" points system as they seem to be the only group that wants one. And I bet our fish and game would spend that money...I bet all of you that don't like point systems would be the first in line to apply if Idaho and NM started having preference points. Nothing wrong with point systems when you have max points.
I drew NM oryx and Idaho moose tags the first year I applied. Many of you would say that is a good example why point systems are bad. My guide for the oryx hunt and my friend that helped on the moose hunt would disagree. Both have been applying for 20+ years without a tag and it doesn't look good for them next year either.
Do you apply every year in NM and Idaho now? If you say yes then I don't think you are being truthful. Many of us apply in these two states when we know we do not have the points to get tags elsewhere. I use those two states to fill gaps and only apply every few years.No....I wouldn’t.
I do apply every year.....and have NO issue with not receiving a ‘point’ when not drawn. It’s a true ‘draw’ system that allows anyone the chance of drawing.Do you apply every year in NM and Idaho now? If you say yes then I don't think you are being truthful. Many of us apply in these two states when we know we do not have the points to get tags elsewhere. I use those two states to fill gaps and only apply every few years.
I think I understand. You would continue to apply if those two states started a point system. You just prefer it stays the way it is. I like having a couple states that have no point systems. I save money by not applying for those states when my preference points insure that I will have a tag elsewhere.I do apply every year.....and have NO issue with not receiving a ‘point’ when not drawn. It’s a true ‘draw’ system that allows anyone the chance of drawing.
Sorry but "points" do not insure (ensure) somebody will draw. I probably won't draw some tags/species even with high points. I only drew one tag this year even though I have 15+ points in most states, and some states 20+ points. I "put in" for 7 or 8 states this year. The only thing I know for sure is that I will die without ever drawing a tag for some species/states. I have a leg up on most as I got in early, so I am not a Noob on point systems.I think I understand. You would continue to apply if those two states started a point system. You just prefer it stays the way it is. I like having a couple states that have no point systems. I save money by not applying for those states when my preference points insure that I will have a tag elsewhere.
The points you have could have gotten you tags if you lower your standards. The premium units are a supply and demand issue. I plan hunts all the time and know within reason that I will be hunting that fall. But I will never see the Henries or have a late rifle tag on the strip. I have never drawn a sheep tag nor will I get to hunt elk in the san juans. I never understood why someone applying for the first time today should get a tag that someone else has been trying to get for 30 yearsSorry but "points" do not insure (ensure) somebody will draw. I probably won't draw some tags/species even with high points. I only drew one tag this year even though I have 15+ points in most states, and some states 20+ points. I "put in" for 7 or 8 states this year. The only thing I know for sure is that I will die without ever drawing a tag for some species/states. I have a leg up on most as I got in early, so I am not a Noob on point systems.
I do agree that for NR, a point system gives you hope (sometimes a false or placebo effect of hope). So, I am for a NR point system if that is what NR would prefer, heck I may even be in that group.
Because points are an entitlement system, like welfare. The longer you participate, the more you get and the states have figured out that you will pay for entitlement.The points you have could have gotten you tags if you lower your standards. The premium units are a supply and demand issue. I plan hunts all the time and know within reason that I will be hunting that fall. But I will never see the Henries or have a late rifle tag on the strip. I have never drawn a sheep tag nor will I get to hunt elk in the san juans. I never understood why someone applying for the first time today should get a tag that someone else has been trying to get for 30 years
A bit of research into the point states of OR, AZ, UT, and WY will help you.A point system doesn't guarantee that a person will draw the top quality tags, but It DOES guarantee that future generations will never draw them.
Spot on!Points are based on the feeling of entitlement that everyone deserves a tag and fine when the demand is such that you can count on drawing tags in some reasonable period of time, everyone wait their turn. On the other hand, when demand is such.that enough that old age and death is the way pools clear, the wait your turn concept breaks down and is unfair. It excludes all but the first in, like a Ponzi scheme. The system will have to change at some point when enough if the have nots complain loud enough. At least the top pool will have had better chances to draw all those years, but imagine how bad those excluded by a point or two all those years will feel.Think they could have a points system for lottery tickets?
It is hard to put the genie back in the bottle, but I have always thought points systems are a unfair and stupid way to try to solve the unsolvable supply being a trickle of the demand issue.
Old Farts? Aren't YOU in that demographic or not far from it. So who are you calling Old Farts?The sad part about current limited tag systems is how much it costs to apply! The cost of application, pref/bonus pt fees is pricing a lot of young and new hunters out of applying. Old farts once drawn....or see they may never draw a tag may give up! How many guys reading this post have spent $200 to $300 just to apply 1 year for multiple species in 1 or 2 states as nonres?
The spooky part about it is that there are more people applying for tags every year so demand continues to grow. What happens 20 to 30 years from now? How about 40 years from today?
Some states change up the draw process that makes it even tougher to draw tags....especially nonres! Take a look at what happened to DIY nonres hunters in N Mexico a few years ago. They pretty much flipped the bird on DIY nonres! Consider what happens if 90/10 ever happens in Wyo! Will Wyo also flip the bird on nonres hunters? About 1/2 the current high demand limited nonres tags will be swallowed up by Wyo res! You want to talk about point leaping for nonres! Draw odds will only slightly improve for Wyo res while it will take at least twice as long for nonres to draw high demand limited tags.
Obviously there is a lot of whining going on when there are so many applicants for so few tags....and it isn't getting any better!
Every time I hear someone say something like this, I wonder, if we’re all going to live to be 200? We only get so many years on this earth, where we’re earning money to apply, and also healthy enough to get up the mountain...A point system doesn't guarantee that a person will draw the top quality tags, but It DOES guarantee that future generations will never draw them.
Soooo, anyone in favor of a point system hates their children, hates their grandchildren and hates every other child that will ever want to hunt a top quality tag.
truedepends on the state
Welfare is paid for by others’ extorted Tax money…. I and everyone else pays for their points. One of these things is NOT like the other.Because points are an entitlement system, like welfare. The longer you participate, the more you get and the states have figured out that you will pay for entitlement.
What about the hunter who faithfully applies, but came in after the points systems were implemented? Those hunters will never enjoy the same hope that the max point holder have...at least not for several decades.If Points systems were scrapped tomorrow 90% of people, including kids and grand kids and neighbors and the lady at the convenience store, would never draw a top tier permit. There are simply not enough permits to go around.
Points, at the very least, give those people that faithfully apply year after year a better chance at drawing permits. It's simple math. 1 point gives a person 2 chances to draw a tag. By my calculation that's better than 0 points where you only have 1 chance.
Or maybe tell him to try and change a blatantly unfair system.Tell him to suck it up. Learn what you can and can't draw and go hunt, or complain about it.
I wasn't on the ground floor in any state but WY and have drawn good tags in OR, AZ, and UT, and can draw in every one of those again. They're decent tags other than UT, but at about $60 to apply there I consider UT a lotto ticket.
What's fair is everyone having an equal chance. What's not fair is a small elitist class of max holders that hold all the hope of a tag. What's really not fair are the State (s) making money off this little lottery. You have to admit, they really sucked us in.What's "fair" is a guy that's applied the longest has the better chance at a percentage of the tags.
What's "fair" is little johnny has the same chance as everyone in the draw regardless of how long they've applied.
What's "fair" is a percentage of the tags go to the county residents because they pay local taxes.
What's "fair" is some kid is guaranteed a Sheep tag because his family lives in the unit.
We can play this game all day long and I've seen people try to make their case for every one of those scenarios. Want it changed, write and submit a proposal to the game dept and follow it thru.
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