never thought it would come to light

TiState - it's no secret that I was a big supporter of SFW for many years. I still think they are the primary reason we have some of the better big game herds in the nation here in Utah. However, Hawkeye nails it when he stated that the most basic principle of dealing with public funds and resources is being ingnored here. While they show an "accounting" for moneys spent, it's really not what the public wants now is it?! Who's to say that the "legal costs" are not padding Ryan Bensons pocket? Most people would want to make sure that there was not doubt where the money was spent and on what, right down to a bag of 16 penny nails. What is so hard to figure out with that. Why, after countless complaints, can the leadership of SFW and BGF come out with an accurate and specific accounting of the funds they spend? It really is bullshi+ and the only conclusion that the public can come to on this is that they are hiding something. Something just isn't quite right with the books or there would have been an accurate accounting by now don't you think? You would think with the way the public trust has been burned over and over again with our current government that these guys would want to eliminate all doubt but I guess they love controversy.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
Not only does troll state like controversy, he likes to think he is the one. And only one that has a clue about the wildlife 4 states away from his his state . If he is so worried about Utah handouts he should move here and argue with the state reps that are doing the audit.
I have made a career change twice, maybe trippedstate should consider his next move rather than counting on the government to insure his paycheck.
 
I am more concerned about the quality and quantity of the work performed than wether or not wolves are delisted.
But isn't that what the article is about?
How did this turn into a deer tag argument? Oh ya, some welfare state taxi demands that ours what this ours about.
 
>And even a smaller handful of
>internet posters agree with you,
>your daddy and the Don.
>

+ 1 Amen!

"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
"Hey tristate,

How are you "fighting the fight"???"

First of all, unlike you and the rest of these mo-mo's I actually answer questions here.

"You're a Texan with NO flesh in the game rambling on about issues that you have nothing to do with."

Go back and read. I actually do have flesh in the game.

"If the citizens and State Legislature want to run an audit on the $300K they spent...its their business, not yours. What gives you even a remote hint that you have to right to question how Utah chooses to conduct their State business?"

The "right" is handed to me by the first amendment. But I actually speak out because I would rather the state go spend that money on projects that actually help our wildlife instead of satisfying the witchhunting wimps that either don't have the balls to come out and say all they want is "their deer tags back" or are a bunch of wolf loving zealouts that think they can use a predator as a weapon to ruin hunting. Wildlife conservation and sustainable harvest IS MY BUSINESS!

"Why are you so worried about the money involved when not one cent of it is yours?"

How yall waste money effects how I make money. I know cause and effect are very difficult concepts for you but I deal with it daily.

"I dont think you could fight your way out of a wet paper sack...all talk."

Keep thinking. Maybe one day you will have an idea.
 
AWHOLELOTTABULL,

Why are these the only organizations that everyone is demanding "accounting down to the penny"???????

Answer that question honestly and then we can start talking about the root of these wars that none of these women will talk about. Its easier to call me names than to actually deal with their issues.

Yall all worry about "padding people's pockets". I have news for you. Every single cent that was spent padded someone's pocket. EVERY SINGLE CENT! What do you think money is for? Do you honestly think that they handed that money to BGF for them to light it on fire? No. They gave them that money and totally expected them to spend it on people for services.

I'll ask you and all these people again who don't answer questions.

1. What are you looking for with this Audit?
2. What would be considered "bad" spending?
3. How much is the audit going to cost?
 
That leopard pic is cool. Thanks.


One thing I forgot to mention. One thing I have found amusing out of all of this is this stance of "its none of your business".

Lets ignore the fact, yall find this part easy, that I am in a wildlife business that deals with interstate and international hunting. Lets just look at this. Dozens of conservation organizations advertise for donations on a nation wide and sometimes international level. More than likely many of you people on these forums belong to and support these organizations. I give to many of these organizations. That means a large percentage of my conservation dollars don't even get used in my own state. As a matter of fact I have donated time, money, and resources for conservation efforts that aren't even in this hemisphere. What would wildlife be like if everyone took it to heart that "your" animals and conservation is none of their business when you want them to reach in their wallet? Be careful with your selfishness. The day may come when the man that can save your hobby decides your hobby is "none of their business".
 
>That leopard pic is cool.
>Thanks.
>
>
>One thing I forgot to mention.
> One thing I have
>found amusing out of all
>of this is this stance
>of "its none of your
>business".
>
>Lets ignore the fact, yall find
>this part easy, that I
>am in a wildlife business
>that deals with interstate and
>international hunting. Lets just
>look at this. Dozens
>of conservation organizations advertise for
>donations on a nation wide
>and sometimes international level.
>More than likely many of
>you people on these forums
>belong to and support these
>organizations. I give to
>many of these organizations.
>That means a large percentage
>of my conservation dollars don't
>even get used in my
>own state. As a
>matter of fact I have
>donated time, money, and resources
>for conservation efforts that aren't
>even in this hemisphere.
>What would wildlife be like
>if everyone took it to
>heart that "your" animals and
>conservation is none of their
>business when you want them
>to reach in their wallet?
> Be careful with your
>selfishness. The day may
>come when the man that
>can save your hobby decides
>your hobby is "none of
>their business".

I agree that this is Tristate's business! And that's all this is about! His posts on this thread are evidence of that. In fact, Tri-state is the name of his business!

Any ideas, proposals, projects, or management of funds that could reduce his potential customer base are his business. And since he doesn't mount many, if any, 2 point bucks, he's not going to promote or support hunting policies or organizations that encourage the killing of those younger bucks. He's after the big ones!

To get the trophies he is paid to mount and the hunters willing to pay for those trophies, he knows we have to leave more bucks in the hills to grow the antlers that those hunters want on their walls. And in order to do that, we have to reduce the number of hunters willing to shoot the 2-points. And that, in turn, is accomplished by limiting the tag numbers, thus increasing their value and pushing the cost of hunting out of the comfort zone/priorities of the less wealthy hunters. In other words, we have to weed out the more casual hunters.

He claims not to be concerned about numbers, but in the end, that's all he is concerned about, his business numbers!

I don't think he's a troll, but a smart, but deceptive, businessman who's trying to increase or maintain his bottom line. His ideas appeal to a few hunters, but that's all he needs to stay in business. I personally wish him well, but I will fight against his version of game management every chance I get with the people that make the decisions in Utah.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-13 AT 01:50PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-13 AT 01:49?PM (MST)

I like your thinking elkfromabove, but we aren't even that far along yet. Yall think I am worried about what size deer yall kill and at this point of the game that is not what I worry about. I worry about whether yall will get to kill any deer at all. Yall have a dwindling resource that gets less and less every year and no plan besides fighting amongst each other to bring it back. Maybe in a couple of decades I can worry about whether yall are killing 2 pointers or 10 pointers but right now I worry about a bunch of little boys who in 20 years won't even know what a deer hunt is. And you better believe that hurts my business. Think of this analogy. Imagine I am a plastic surgeon. I happen across a young woman who has been mugged and stabbed. Do I toss her my card and tell her to call me when she wants some great boobs? No. I give her immediate life saving medical attention. If she lives she'll call me when and if she thinks she needs the boobs. Right now yall are a bunch of beaten and stabbed victims. I ain't trying to sell you anything. I haven't tried selling you anything on these forums ever.

I am in no way ashamed of being a business man and it would behoove you to listen to what I am saying. Without the businessmen you will not have hunting and without people like yall there will be no hunting. We are symbiotic.
 
txhunter58,

I was thinking he was more of a red rash than a spotted leopard. I like looking at leopards but not so much a baboon's butt.....see:

603170_10200575556884592_500448425_n.jpg



"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
Agreed that the focus should be on growing more deer now. The rest can be discussed once we get there. But battling on the Internet accomplishes little.

Shotgun and Kdad, how much has your daddies done to help our deer herds??? Lets argue like elementary kids....it's kinda the Internet play ground.....right.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-13 AT 08:11PM (MST)[p]>Agreed that the focus should be
>on growing more deer now.
> The rest can be
>discussed once we get there.
> But battling on the
>Internet accomplishes little.
>
>Shotgun and Kdad, how much
>has your daddies done to
>help our deer herds???
>Lets argue like elementary kids....it's
>kinda the Internet play ground.....right.
>

Can't speak to Shotgun's, but my father has done plenty having grown up in San Juan County and still knows the Blues and Lasals better than anyone I know along with critter habitat. I think the point isn't a "who's wiener is bigger" play ground fight, but rather a progressive ideology that ignores the simple principles of the NAMWC that have a proven track record of saving and fostering what populations of elk, deer, bison, and other wildlife that we currently have. It was the professional and trophy minded hunters of our past who all but decimated many of the animals we're talking about here.

But that isn't the point buttshot made in the original post. The story talks about a call for accounting (re-read the definition, trollstate)concerning monies that were NOT used in Utah's benefit. Even the stories included in the "accounting" submitted by RB show NOTHING that was specifically done by BGF on behalf of our state. Utah doesn't allocate money to help other states out of our general fund and if they did, for whatever reason, you can bet that the outcry would be just as resounding. Pretty clear that the majority of UTAH sportsmen are growing weary of those claims and promises made 20+ years ago at our state capital. Other states readily reject the SFW and BGF model of ANYTHING concerning game management because of what has happened here in Utah. I've said it all along...change the leadership of SFW (who are now promoting a new PROGRESSIVE logo contest among the rank and file), account for or return every penny tied to conservation and convention tags (the same as RMEF), and stop with the legislative money grab we see with the wolf as a pawn (DP and RB need to find another nipple to nurse on, IMHO).

I hope like hell that the contract for the expo in 2016 addresses this very issue of accountability, accounting, and honesty, and I'm sure it will. Till then, have a nice evening, Cody.

"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-13 AT 09:10PM (MST)[p]Oh, and just for reference, here's the fluff filled bullcrap "summary" and drivel filled exhausting explanations of BGF accomplishing NOTHING to actually assist the actual delisting including Utah. Take special note that there isn't one receipt or corresponding document to support their "expenditures" which is the root of the issue here. Also, take special note of the date of the letters from Orrin Hack..er, Hatch and Robber Bishop, er....I meant Rob Bishop. Tell me that RB didn't call right away and ask for a letter of commendation.....simply put, I can outline more that BGF has done to prevent the delisting than actual work they did in favor of delisting. I'd like to know case numbers and disposition of any legal action specific to the efforts of BGF. Also interesting is the bragging about companion bills in the house and senate concerning delisting that never left committee, or if they did they were DOA on the floor. The auditor general is right, its hard to distinguish between a private business expense and a state contract expense but for hell's sake, if you're going to take money from taxpayers....ACCOUNT for it by keeping accurate books, receipts, and documentation of where that money is spent! How is THAT unreasonable?

Edited to include summary link:

http://wildlife.utah.gov/wolf/pdf/utah_contract_report.pdf


"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-13 AT 09:33PM (MST)[p]You are hilarious! And ignorant as hell!!! I've read every damn thing I've "cut and pasted" including entire legal history on cases BGF claims to have been involved in where they aren't listed or mentioned nowhere in the minutes or filings. They have initiated NOTHING to the effort they claim let alone on behalf of Utah.

I never said that an accounting puts value to something except for work accomplished. I guess by your theory, I could bill one of your customers for taxi work and then claim that because I actually billed them, I can take credit for the work YOU did? Seems legit. You're a sorry excuse of a man to come on the internet and nitpick anyone who doesn't agree with you, BEN. Why don't you drive your pudgy little fat butt up here to Utah and start attending RAC and WB meetings and have real affect on policy if you're so concerned about your future livelihood? I'd like for you to run your mouth to half the good Utah folks here that you insult daily, face to face. Also, your business model is to insult a community of people you depend on? Are you serious?!?!?! You're as dumb as you look. Here's some history for you....Ben.

http://www.huntright.org/where-we-stand/north-american-model-of-wildlife-conservation

http://www.boone-crockett.org/conse...on_awareness&gclid=CKXrzpKCrrgCFetFMgodMXQAmg

http://themeateater.com/videos/north-american-model-of-wildlife-conservation/

http://www.trcp.org/community/conse...north-american-model-of-wildlife-conservation

http://joomla.wildlife.org/index.php?id=171&option=com_content&task=view

http://www.azgfd.gov/h_f/documents/NAM Brochure.pdf

Cut and pasted just like you like em, Clownstate. Now I'll go back to ignoring you. Plus I have a Utah Elk tag and a Utah Dedicated Hunter Deer tag to fill. And I sure as hell will NEVER send even a bovine pile of crap for you preserve.


"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
Tristate,

I have read many of your posts and you and I haven't seen eye to eye on most things.

I can appreciate your concerns and I am genuinely interested to hear what your ideas are for wildlife management.

I have yet to hear a single idea from you. You are very good at picking apart others opinions and ideas and it appears as though that is your only agenda.

Then, once in a while, you come back with a somewhat civil response that makes a little sense.

Why don't you put some of your energy into educating us on your ideas instead of simply instigating arguments?

I am genuinely interested in hearing these ideas!


"The problem with quotes on Internet Forums is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
 
Before I rip this post apart can someone explain why my posts on this matter are being deleted?

LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-13
>AT 09:33?PM (MST)
>
>You are hilarious! And ignorant
>as hell!!! I've read
>every damn thing I've "cut
>and pasted" including entire legal
>history on cases BGF claims
>to have been involved in
>where they aren't listed or
>mentioned nowhere in the minutes
>or filings. They have
>initiated NOTHING to the effort
>they claim let alone on
>behalf of Utah.

That's funny because yesterday on TV I saw a wolf commercial they ran. Sound like more than "nothing" to me.
>
>I never said that an accounting
>puts value to something except
>for work accomplished.

It doesn't put value on anything and your cut and paste definition doesn't even state anything about puting value on anything.
I
>guess by your theory, I
>could bill one of your
>customers for taxi work and
>then claim that because I
>actually billed them, I can
>take credit for the work
>YOU did? Seems legit.
>You're a sorry excuse of
>a man to come on
>the internet and nitpick anyone
>who doesn't agree with you,
>BEN. Why don't you
>drive your pudgy little fat
>butt up here to Utah
>and start attending RAC and
>WB meetings and have real
>affect on policy if you're
>so concerned about your future
>livelihood? I'd like for
>you to run your mouth
>to half the good Utah
>folks here that you insult
>daily, face to face.
>Also, your business model is
>to insult a community of
>people you depend on?
>Are you serious?!?!?! You're
>as dumb as you look.
> Here's some history for
>you....Ben.

Like I have stated before, anything I have said on here I can say proudly to any man in person. Can I be wrong? You bet. But I am not ashamed. If you don't believe me walk in my shop and ask me some day. Easy as that.
>
>http://www.huntright.org/where-we-stand/north-american-model-of-wildlife-conservation
>
>http://www.boone-crockett.org/conse...on_awareness&gclid=CKXrzpKCrrgCFetFMgodMXQAmg
>
>http://themeateater.com/videos/north-american-model-of-wildlife-conservation/
>
>http://www.trcp.org/community/conse...north-american-model-of-wildlife-conservation
>
>http://joomla.wildlife.org/index.php?id=171&option=com_content&task=view
>
>http://www.azgfd.gov/h_f/documents/NAM Brochure.pdf
>
>Cut and pasted just like you
>like em, Clownstate. Now
>I'll go back to ignoring
>you. Plus I have a
>Utah Elk tag and a
>Utah Dedicated Hunter Deer tag
>to fill. And I
>sure as hell will NEVER
>send even a bovine pile
>of crap for you preserve.

I like it when you cut and paste. Most of the time when you do there is a chance for people to actually learn something instead of polluting their brains with your opinions. Hopefully people here won't believe what your version of accounting is. If you would like a good recommendation for a taxidermist I can give you one. Good luck hunting.
 
Osok,

I have typed many of my ideas here before. A quick search will help you find them. If you would like to talk about them please feel free to call my office anytime. I will talk to anyone.

As for my problem with this specific thread I am posting here for two reasons.

1. This attack on BGF has nothing to do with 300k given to them. The reason this is going on is because of a sister ship with the group SFW. These people are still furious about the states decision to maximize the value of certain deer tags within Utah and taking tags out of the public draw. They think making these tangent stabs at these groups is going to solve their deer issues. All it is, is a selfish battle over who gets to kill the last deer.

2. This audit will cost more money. Money that the state could actually use to help deer. But that isn't the point is it. Like I told Elkfromabove, it's OK if you don't want BGF to get this money next year. Take some time and right a NON-EMOTIONAL letter to the legislature or even petition the state to stop giving them money. But quit using the states resources to push a selfish agenda for deer tags.


I have asked these people question after question time after time about what they want to see in this audit and what they think will be determined by doing the audit and how much they think the audit will cost, and not one of them has answered those questions? Not one. I want to see them put their money where their mouths are. i would respect them a lot more if just one of them would say he'll pay for the audit regardless of the outcome. To me it's no different than the Colorado governor tag debate we had on here. According to these people thousands of people were backing changing the tag rules. But none of them were willing to take the easiest solution. All of them could have piled their money and bought the tag. It would have cost them each less than $100 a piece to get what they say they wanted AND THEY COULDN'T DO IT. Because none of them believed that much in their own fight. In reality it was a bunch of class warfare directed at one outfitter that everyone on here loves to hate. It's all a bunch of childishness, and the mule deer suffers a little more.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-14-13 AT 10:54AM (MST)[p]I wish I could take a day or three and do a C/P like BGF did to put that summary together and get another $300K for it! What a friggin joke and trollstate asks us what we'd like to see in an audit. An audit shows where every penny was spent and not just a line item that shows $134K for legal mumbo jumbo when they didn't even have a lobbyist in DC! A good chunk of that $134K probably went into the pockets of TWO people, but how do we know when there are no individual line items showing where it went to come up with that total! It will be very interesting to see what they come up when they meet to show where the actual money went, but the way they comingle all their monies IMHO it will be impossible to come up with anything concrete one way or the other. In that respect trollstate is probably correct that the audit will be another waste of taxpayer money!
 
Kdad,
That is great. My comment was tongue in cheek. But as always I appreciate those that get involved involved.

Carry on Internet Crusaders!
 
What if 134k did go into the pockets of two people? Two people aren't allowed to make 134k????? How much money did the government pay you before you retired? I bet you could tell us and your bosses all kinds of services you provided for that salary, that would not show up on an audit. I bet these two guys could do the same. I'm not defending the character of BGF or any of these men, but the audit won't make anyone's fears or paranoia go away.
 
Muley - Your just as much an "Internet Crusader" as anyone else on here.

Tristate - I just may take you up on that. I truly do like hearing unique perspecitives and ideas and I try and keep my mind open to those things. I have said it before on here and I will say it again, I have changed my mind about things by keeping my mind open and trying to learn the whole story and I am sure I will again.

"I have asked these people question after question time after time about what they want to see in this audit and what they think will be determined by doing the audit and how much they think the audit will cost, and not one of them has answered those questions?"

I will answer your questions from my perspective: I expect to see if the money was actually spent like it should have been spent. I would expect that it wasn't and hopefully some accountability will come from it. I don't think the cost of the audit is relevant. It's something that has to be done to ensure the public trusts best interests are being maintained.

There is a place for auditing and an entire industry thrives because of one thing, greed! Money has a way of making people do things they shouldn't and I suspect we will see some of this behavior in this audit. If not then the audit still served a purpose, didn't it?

Just my $0.02

As Muley would say "Carry on Internet Crusaders" ( cause he is never on here crusading and he is much more involved in wildlife than the rest of us morons)

"The problem with quotes on Internet Forums is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-14-13 AT 02:00PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-14-13 AT 01:56?PM (MST)

>What if 134k did go into
>the pockets of two people?
> Two people aren't allowed
>to make 134k????? How
>much money did the government
>pay you before you retired?
> I bet you could
>tell us and your bosses
>all kinds of services you
>provided for that salary, that
>would not show up on
>an audit. I bet
>these two guys could do
>the same. I'm not
>defending the character of BGF
>or any of these men,
>but the audit won't make
>anyone's fears or paranoia go
>away.


***Your response was exactly as I suspected, which is to argue anything just for the sake of arguing and that is exactly what a troll does! What do you mean when you say "so what if the two guys pocketed almost half of the $300K"?! The money was not given to line the pockets of anyone associated with running BGF. There are salaried people in that organization and the money from the Legislature was not meant to add half of it to their salaries. I also have no idea what you are referencing regarding your comment about what I did for a living, but as much as you flap your gums and say nothing that's not surprising! Seeing as how I was a state of MI employee I was earning taxpayer money and it damn sure wasn't even half as much as that $134K in any give year of my 30 year career! I did everything that was listed in my job category and the job required numerous duties, but the only thing I can claim was to work overtime for no extra pay many times in order to get the jobs done because I was expected to do more than any one person could ever do in the actual allotted time.
 
Os,
I surely do waste time arguing on the Internet. We all spend time arguing about the way we wish it's was. It does little to change what reality is.
 
"I will answer your questions from my perspective: I expect to see if the money was actually spent like it should have been spent."

I see what your saying and this is what I addressed earlier. No format or plan was submitted to get the money therefore what trail will an audit look for. The whole thing was just poor design if people did want any "accountability".

" I would expect that it wasn't and hopefully some accountability will come from it. I don't think the cost of the audit is relevant. It's something that has to be done to ensure the public trusts best interests are being maintained."

It feels irrelevant when you hope there will be a satisfactory outcome. But it feels bad when you just spent the money and nobody knows any more than they did before the audit and you come to realize a bunch of people pushed for it because of ulterior political motive.

"There is a place for auditing and an entire industry thrives because of one thing, greed!"

Not necessarily. There are legitimate services for legitimate needs in this industry.

" Money has a way of making people do things they shouldn't"

Agreed for some people.

" and I suspect we will see some of this behavior in this audit."

How do you see behavior in an audit of a service industry that basically amounts to lobbying? You can't measure intellectual property with it. You can't measure peoples words, phone calls, letters, and back scratching. You can't tell who they took to dinners, bought gifts for, went on trips with. For lack of better terms no one has really invented a way to accurately measure asskissing and politicking.

" If not then the audit still served a purpose, didn't it?"

Yep. It will do what government does best. Spend other people's money as inefficiently as possible.
 
"***Your response was exactly as I suspected, which is to argue anything just for the sake of arguing and that is exactly what a troll does! What do you mean when you say "so what if the two guys pocketed almost half of the $300K"?! The money was not given to line the pockets of anyone associated with running BGF."

Whose pockets are they meant to line. That money goes in someone's pocket. Tell me who can have the sacred money. Tell me who out there is righteous enough to be paid for their time.


" There are salaried people in that organization and the money from the Legislature was not meant to add half of it to their salaries."

Where does it say that. Where did the legislature say that BGF couldn't pay people working on the goal that the money was appropriated for?

" I also have no idea what you are referencing regarding your comment about what I did for a living, but as much as you flap your gums and say nothing that's not surprising! Seeing as how I was a state of MI employee I was earning taxpayer money and it damn sure wasn't even half as much as that $134K in any give year of my 30 year career!"

So that's what makes these people evil. They make more money than you did????????????????????

" I did everything that was listed in my job category and the job required numerous duties, but the only thing I can claim was to work overtime for no extra pay many times in order to get the jobs done because I was expected to do more than any one person could ever do in the actual allotted time."

And none of your last statement could be proven or disproved with an audit is my point.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-14-13 AT 03:06PM (MST)[p]You ask more questions than a PA lawyer, LOL! The money wasn't given to line anyone's pocket. It was actually appropriated for a pretty stupid purpose if you really look at why it was given and the previous shenanigans regarding the wolf situation of who they gave it too. You hit on one true thing in your questions and that's the fact that it would appear the appropriated money had no particular demands to justify and show where it went. Now some of the Legislators are asking themslves what is going on and want to know if anything of substance was done for that money because it doesn't appear there was. Just looking at the summary that BGF presented shows it is a joke and if they don't have anything more of substance to show the auditors they may end up being asked to repay the funds. My comment on what I made for a living being not even half in a year of what they show on that one line item was not meant as you suggested. It was meant to show that I worked my ass off for the taxpayer money I earned and the Legislators literally appear to have given all that taxpayer money away for little to no benefit to the Utah taxpayers. Finally, you are completely incorrect in your closing statement in that we were audited at the end of every fiscal year and that's why I always came in #1 in work accomplished as an individual. I was raised to have integrity in everything I do and it showed in every one of those audits because I could have done much less for the money I made, but I'm not like that. That is the entire reason that I'm always pissed every time the subject of SFW/BGF comes up because it's easy to see that some money is not going where it should or they would be open, transparent, and allow their books to be thoroughly checked. When the next Expo contract comes up for bid it will be interesting to see what changes will be made for whatever group gets the bid to justify where the money made goes.
 
Top gun,

You are missing the point. ALL MONEY LINES SOMEONE'S POCKET ONCE ITLEAVES THE PUBLIC SECTOR. If you buy a loaf of bread you have lined a pocket. If you pay a mechanic you are lining his pocket. If you donate to a church you are lining a pocket. How in the world does the state fund something like lobbying in the private sector and not line someone's pocket????
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-14-13 AT 05:12PM (MST)[p]The point is on the top of your head man! Why can't you comprehend that if the only thing they accomplished is lining their own pockets and don't do what the state intended with the money it was, therefore, wasted! That is the entire purpose of the audit, which you obviously fail to comprehend or are just arguing for arguments sake! Maybe it's a lot of both. It appears some of the Legislators are now beginning to realize, just like many of the Utah citizens are, that they're being duped by Peay and Benson. Just maybe if this audit proves what many of us think it will spell the end of the road for these guys taking money from the public trust and not spendng it properly for the benefit of wildlife. Also, please stop with the foolish BS statement about "this is all regarding who will kill the last deer"!
 
So what were they supposed to accomplish with the money?
I expect you to answer this question.
It would be great if you can post a direct list of demands that the state had for the money.

By the way this is still just a battle in the fight to decide who gets to whack the last deer.
 
There are certain things in business that are taboo. Those who work for a non profit org should be compensated fairly. Those should be documented to the penny for all of the public to see. If BGF officials get compensated then it should be a fair wage and not some grossly over paid wage (and I'm not saying that they are or aren't). If Mr Benson is getting compensated for being the President of BGF (or whatever his title is) then he shouldn't get compensated for his "legal" involvement. That's called a conflict of interest or lining the pockets. It's really very simple. Document every penny and place it somewhere where the public can see where every penny is going. How hard is that? Of course, if you're trying to hide something then it might be a little harder.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
"There are certain things in business that are taboo. Those who work for a non profit org should be compensated fairly."

How do you define "fairly". That's pretty subjective. How do people who have never done the work decide what "fair compensation" is. I can tell you this they would have a pretty hard time convincing that 134k split two ways isn't a fair wage for a years worth of lobbying. I don't know a single lobbyist that makes less than five times that a year.

" Those should be documented to the penny for all of the public to see. If BGF officials get compensated then it should be a fair wage and not some grossly over paid wage (and I'm not saying that they are or aren't). If Mr Benson is getting compensated for being the President of BGF (or whatever his title is) then he shouldn't get compensated for his "legal" involvement.That's called a conflict of interest or lining the pockets."

What do you mean by "legal involvement"?

" It's really very simple. Document every penny and place it somewhere where the public can see where every penny is going. How hard is that? Of course, if you're trying to hide something then it might be a little harder."

I think you will see they do. I think you will also see documenting pennies doesn't tell you whether they are bad people or not.
 
"Tri---Below this opening parsagraph is the first three paragraphs of the link in the OP, in case you didn't read it. You asked what the money was appropriated for and those paragraphs cover it."

Actually you need to learn how to read. Those three paragraphs only mention what the next grant will be for. They do not state what the state was requiring for the last grant.

"As the preceding post stated, the organization, just as I also mentioned, already has salaried staff to accomplish their goals and shouldn't be taking more money for salaries from the public trust, whether it be from the DWR or General Fund."

How do you know they have enough employees? How does a guy in Michigan determine how many employees a company in Utah has and whether they are "enough"? Especially after complaining that you don't know what their accounting is? Where do you get off thinking people with no clue of the inner workings of a business get to decide how many employees are "enough"? HOW MANY EMPLOYEES DOES BGF HAVE, EXACTLY? I expect you to answer this question Mr. Omniscience. HOW MANY?

" They have done little in the battle to delist wolves and, in fact, did quite a bit to prolong the delisting in case you are not aware of their shenanigans!"

They are the only group I saw putting out TV commercials.

" It appears from the little they have done since the group's inception that just maybe their actual goal is to have a place where money can be funneled to line the pockets of the founders!"

NOT A CRIME! Every single conservation organization that I know of lines people's pockets. Why are founders not allowed to make money? I dare you to answer that question. I double dare you.

" They have now openly stated that they are a social welfare operation and most of us know who the welafre is probably going to! With the wolf already delisted in the main three western states and the Great Lakes states there would appear to be no reason to appropriate monies when there are also no plans to establish wolves in Utah and the Feds have openly proposed to delist the wolf throughout the entire lower 48 states. IMHO the Utah Legislators have been giving money for nothing beneficial to Utah and especially this last $300K that appears to have been wasted when they were duped into appropriating it by DP! Here are the link statements:"

Careful. That's the kind of logic that lets you go hunt polar bears if you want. Oh wait I forgot. YOU CAN'T! People spent decades trying to get polar bears taken of the MMPA. They finally succeeded and figured everything was hunky dory. Well the antis didn't give up and now they are protected by the ESA. Its always good when hunters think they are safe and can sit on their butts and do nothing to protect hunting.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-13 AT 07:50AM (MST)[p]Seeing as how you jumped on me and made post #137 before I could even put post #136 up with minor editing I was doing, I have deleted it and will not respond to any more of your BS other than to say your post #137 is incorrect in many aspects, but what else is new! You obviously feel that as long as a person can hide stuff and not get caught that they should be able to rape the public for whatever they can get, regardless if it was beneficial to anyone other than themselves. You should go to work for DP and RB as your integrity is as lacking as theirs! With your twisted logic they could take $290,000 of the appropriation for their staff salaries and put up one $10,000 TV ad and call it good, LOL! My big mistake was even replying to anything you posted after telling others not to. That mistake will not be repeated because anything a person says is immediately twisted by yourself and comes out nothing like went in!
 
You said it and now I am asking.

How many employees does BGF have and how many employees is "enough" for them to have?

I want an answer.
 
After 26 years in the military and finally remembering what Tristate reminds me of, the Major with little man syndrome. Watched a major berate every person around him(about 5 senior NCO's), one right after another. In the chow line for lunch. Little man was really putting on a show , throwing his rank around. Easy to tell from the Seargents expressions that the little man was gonna end up shorter than he was.
 
Maybe the major cared more than you did. I can tell you this. He had his bluff on and it worked on you. 26 years later you are still too chicken to answer a question on a silly Internet thread.
 
Douchstate belittles and says everyone who receives a tag thru the public draw is the same as collecting welfare checks, but now he says its ok for $FW and BGF to collect welfare and spend it on whatever BS they want to spend it on. What a hypicritical douch.
Hey Douchstate, is it ok when I collect my welfare checks that you pay for in taxas to spend it all on alcohol and drugs?

Topgun you're right, if people ignor this clueless idiot hopefully he'll go away. This is the last time I post anything about that clown.
 
Shotgun,

Don't ever let logic and definition get in the way of a childish post.


Mtmuley,

Without me these guys wouldn't have a life. They have actually taken time out of their lives to figure out how tall I am:) . I feel really honored that kids would be so desperate to think my height is important. Not wolves, or accounting, or mule deer conservation. The two most important things in the world are how tall people are and who gets to decide who kills the last mule deer.

But shot,

I will save you some time so you can get back to third period. I am short. I am fat. I am really ugly. I dress funny. I have bad hair (what's left of it), and I don't have any tattoos. I don't own a motorcycle. I am educated. I am raising my own children and I know who my father is. So I guess all this pretty much makes me a dork. But I am a very happy dork that hasn't ever had to run from a question.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-23-13 AT 05:19PM (MST)[p]I am glad that Arizona hunters ran SFW out of state and that BGF will not be here either. We are too smart for them to take over as they have in Utah.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-13-13 AT 02:54PM (MST)[p]The audit was initiated and is still in progress, but I believe it's getting close to finishing. (I haven't been able to find anything or anyone that can verify it, one way or another.)

However, here's what I know about the general process per some internet research, GRAMA requests, and phone conversations.

This audit, as are all their audits, was requested by the Utah State Legislature and given to the Office of the Utah Legislative Auditor General, John M. Schaff. This is not the Utah State Auditor's Office, it's more specific to the Legislature and State Officers and their mission is; "to serve the citizens of Utah by providing objective information, in-depth analysis, and useful recommendations that help legislators and other decision makers: Improve Programs, Reduce Costs, Promote Accountability. To achieve this mission they conduct audits and reviews of performance, compliance and operations of state agencies and programs that are requested by the Legislature.

The following information is vital to determine how the system works and the costs involved in conducting an audit.

The Office is staffed by the Auditor General, Deputy Auditor General, 2 Audit Managers, 8 Audit Supervisors, 12 Auditors and 3 Clerk/Technicians. Audits require at least 1 manager and 1 supervisor and up to 5 auditors.

Their budget for FY 2013 is $3,323,900

Salaries:
Auditor General - (I didn't request.)
Deputy A G - (I didn't request.)
Audit Manager - $58.63 to $60.25 per hour
Audit Supervisor - $28.19 to $52.61 per hour
Staff Auditor - $20.92 to $25.98 per hour

Audits are not tracked by costs, but by man-hours assigned to them, so it's not possible without a lot of searching and cooperation to get an exact cost, but I think we can get a close estimate.

Although it may not be the same type of audit, the only audit I could find that was related to the DWR was an audit in 2011 (#14) which had three aspects to it, ie; Hatchery production programs and efficiency, Waste in Fish Egg Production and Conservation and CWMU Permits vs. Hunting Opportunity. This audit was much more complicated than the one we're talking about on this thread, but it will give you an idea of the costs of audits. The 2011-14 audit involved a lot of field work, traveling, interviews, research, and scientific testing so it was quite a bit more expensive than the BGF audit.

Near bottom line: The number of work hours for Audit 2011-14 is 2,380. We don't know who spent how much time on this audit, but we do know the total and if we average the salaries for the managers, supervisors and auditors and share the time equally we get about $40.59 per hour x 2,380 hours = $96,592. And that's for a much more involved audit. I'm sure the BGF audit will be less than 1/2 that.

In any case, that's the general idea about the process. I'm sorry if it was boring, but we should know more details soon. I'll keep checking.
 
"Audits are not tracked by costs, but by man-hours assigned to them, so it's not possible without a lot of searching and cooperation to get an exact cost, but I think we can get a close estimate."

So its impossible to audit the auditors?


Actually elk this is a pretty good post and I appreciate the research you did. However I am not sure the assumption that this audit is much cheaper can be validated. I can see how you could be correct there but we really don't know. After all it seems there could be extensive travel in this one since it was an interstate type job.
 
>"Audits are not tracked by costs,
>but by man-hours assigned to
>them, so it's not possible
>without a lot of searching
>and cooperation to get an
>exact cost, but I think
>we can get a close
>estimate."
>
>So its impossible to audit the
>auditors?
>
>
>Actually elk this is a pretty
>good post and I appreciate
>the research you did.
>However I am not sure
>the assumption that this audit
>is much cheaper can be
>validated. I can see
>how you could be correct
>there but we really don't
>know. After all it
>seems there could be extensive
>travel in this one since
>it was an interstate type
>job.

I was also taken back by the fact that they track audits by the hours. The 2011 audit contains charts and graphs and all kinds of number data relating to the fish studies, but they can't figure out how much it costs? (Or aren't willing to.)

In any case, there were only 4 audit people listed in the report (1 manager, 1 supervisor, 2 auditors) and it doesn't seem like much trouble to fill out individual time sheets and expenses and calculate the numbers. Maybe they didn't have calculators!!!

As to your observation that my numbers may be off, you're probably correct there. And maybe there will be some traveling to other states instead of some simple phone calls. Government agencies have a way of taking the scenic routes when given the chance, pun intended! We'll have to wait and see. When I see the report posted on their website, I'll GRAMA the hours, but I'm pretty sure it won't be anywhere near the $300,000 we're talking about. And even if it is, this audit will send the message intended. "Be accountable for public monies."

As for your earlier statements regarding saving that money for wildlife, I wish that were the case, but I'm afraid there is no money path from the auditor to the DWR. Each of those entities have seperate budgets unrelated to each other and they are not allowed to rob Peter to pay Paul. They both just rob, so to speak, the general public (and/or hunters and fishermen) to pay themselves.

I'll update when I get more info.
 
Thanks for the update elk. I have been waiting for something in the news about this and have been contemplating calling my state rep to see whats up. Appreciate your research as well!
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-14-13 AT 08:52AM (MST)[p]"They both just rob, so to speak, the general public (and/or hunters and fishermen) to pay themselves."


Thankyou elk. This is what I have been trying to get the people on these forums to see all along. These state agencies are the biggest problem facing us, wildlife, and conservation. They flush tens of millions down the toilet every year, billions never even get to the table,and get away with it because we sit and scream and rant about $300k.
 
>
>I'll update when I get more
>info.

Please be patient! If the other audit is any indication of the time it takes (2,380 hours/4 auditors = 595 hrs @ = 15 weeks), it's gonna be a while!

Lee Tracy (UWC)
 
>LAST EDITED ON Aug-14-13
>AT 08:52?AM (MST)
>
>"They both just rob, so to
>speak, the general public (and/or
>hunters and fishermen) to pay
>themselves."
>
>
>Thankyou elk. This is what
>I have been trying to
>get the people on these
>forums to see all along.
> These state agencies are
>the biggest problem facing us,
>wildlife, and conservation. They
>flush tens of millions down
>the toilet every year, billions
>never even get to the
>table,and get away with it
>because we sit and scream
>and rant about $300k.

I will agree with the above statement. State agencies are great at throwing away money, especially to the wrong people/organizations. But the people/organizations that take it and misuse is are just as bad as the Government. Two wrongs don't make a right. So the whole outcome of this thread is we need to find an Organization/Persons who we can give this money to and have solid results and outcomes that bennefit the people and the animals.

Lets hope for the sake of both we can start giving these moneys to reputable organizations/people, instead of having it squandered.
 
DBG,

I am not arguing that two wrongs make a right. In fact I am saying if we could get the state agencies to perform the way they should there would never be any need for these organizations good or bad. You wouldn't have to worry about what RMEF, or BGF do with money because they wouldn't even be relevant anymore.
 
>DBG,
>
>I am not arguing that two
>wrongs make a right.
>In fact I am saying
>if we could get the
>state agencies to perform the
>way they should there would
>never be any need for
>these organizations good or bad.
> You wouldn't have to
>worry about what RMEF, or
>BGF do with money because
>they wouldn't even be relevant
>anymore.

I partially agree with that statement. There will always be needs/wants for special intrest groups no matter how well the state/feds manage a budget. They will be a part because different people want different thing including concessions. It will never change I just seen no reason that these Organizations/groups should be getting state (taxpayer) monies to fund their specail interests. I just figured with how much you lobbied for BGF and SFW that you were under the impression they were the greatest thing to happen hunters/game, even though they are as corrupted as the government giving them the funds.
 
DBG,

I have no issue with anyone saying they don't want these special interest groups getting any money. I think it would be great if the states were running their wildlife agencies so well that special interest groups became about as needed as ##### on boars. I have never lobbied for BGF or SFW. I have simply decided I am not going to stand quiet while people demonize other hunters or hunting groups in an effort to squabble over a diminishing resource while the real problem stands aside unnoticed. There is absolutely NOTHING good that comes of it. Just stand back and look since I have been the "troll" around here. Has anything good happened for the mule deer? Nope. Have the SFW haters been able to shut SFW down? Nope. Have the cries of the underfunded made hunting any cheaper for any of us? Nope.

Have these people successfully divided hunters into groups that hate each other and could be conquered by anti-hunting interests? You better believe it.
 
>Have these people successfully divided hunters
>into groups that hate each
>other and could be conquered
>by anti-hunting interests? You
>better believe it.

Maybe I misinterpreted your comments are you blaming hunters? the state? or the special intrest groups for this?

The way I look at this the special intrest groups (hunters) have been more devisive lately than the person we have to refer to as our president, the government is not much help as I just stated they are very devisive as well.

Hunter will overcome though when it is necessary to do so just as the rest of this nation comes together during tragedy hunters will in time of peril.

Simple fact is all special intrest groups want to claim credit for something (wether they had anything to do with it or not) because it attracts people to their group where they get more money. the reason of this whole topic was not to be devisive but because the government is trying to find out where the supplied money has went. Nobody here has not seen the numerous times that people have request accountability from those groups and others. But now the state is involved which could possibly but not definately mean that there are some accountability issues with this group.
 
"Maybe I misinterpreted your comments are you blaming hunters? the state? or the special intrest groups for this?"

I blame hunters. Often we are our own worst enemy.

"The way I look at this the special intrest groups (hunters) have been more devisive lately than the person we have to refer to as our president, the government is not much help as I just stated they are very devisive as well."

I don't think the special interest groups have been very divisive. I think what you are seeing is a lot of competition between these groups and many hunters are letting that divide them because they don't understand what is going on.

"Hunter will overcome though when it is necessary to do so just as the rest of this nation comes together during tragedy hunters will in time of peril."

Maybe

"Simple fact is all special intrest groups want to claim credit for something (wether they had anything to do with it or not) because it attracts people to their group where they get more money. the reason of this whole topic was not to be devisive but because the government is trying to find out where the supplied money has went. Nobody here has not seen the numerous times that people have request accountability from those groups and others. But now the state is involved which could possibly but not definately mean that there are some accountability issues with this group."

With this specific group it has never been about accountability. Accountability is a tangent attack because some of these hunters still can't get over the fact that SFW gets deer tags to auction and raffle. Nobody presses any other group for "accounting". Only this group. And you can't start saying all the other groups provide open books because they don't. I have seen their online posted "books" and that doesn't tell anyone anything. I would give these concerned hunters a lot more respect if they could actually deal with the issue that bothers them instead of trying these other arguments that have just spent other peoples money fighting their cause.
 
With this specific group it has
never been about accountability.
Accountability is a tangent attack
because some of these hunters
still can't get over the
fact that SFW gets deer
tags to auction and raffle.
Nobody presses any other
group for "accounting". Only
this group. And you
can't start saying all the
other groups provide open books
because they don't. I
have seen their online posted
"books" and that doesn't tell
anyone anything. I would give
these concerned hunters a lot
more respect if they could
actually deal with the issue
that bothers them instead of
trying these other arguments that
have just spent other peoples
money fighting their cause.

While I I enjoy this conversation Tristate, I am affraid to keep it going because I believe we are at an impass. I used to contribute to SFW, never have to BGF. While I agree that we are our own worst enemies most of the time, I feel the reason people are so upset at this time with these groups, it is public funds. The $300,000 was tax payer money, as I have stated the government is as bad with, money as a crack head. But it is law we have to give our money to them, it is not law we have to subsidize a "non-profit" organization with our tax dollars, and they must be able to prove where every cent went.

While I do not agree with these organizations in general, because I do not believe in tax free "non-profit" companies. I do believe SFW, RMEF, MDF, ect. have done great things for wildlife, and I hope they continue to, but they should not be allocated tax payer monies to do so. It should come from membership fees as well as fundraising efforts, I know the state/feds piss enough of my money away that I do not need them to give it to another bussiness to do it for them.

As for blaming hunters, and saying special intrest groups are not to blame. The owners/founders of all special intrest groups are hunters, using hunters to get money and time from them. The special intrest groups(hunters) are the split, RMEF speaks out against SFW, SFW speaks out against MDF. They don't work together which makes it to where hunters don't work together because they think one group is better than the other and we have exactly what we are seeing in this thread, when in reality all groups have similar intrests. When they should be teaming up to combat something together, they are splitting hairs and trying to get enrollment by chastising the other group. So you were partially right that it is the hunters, or fully right if you recognize that the groups are hunters and they are as much at fault as anyone.
 
Trist I have a buddy that was recently hired full time as BGF marketing director, I'm SURE that he would just like to let this 300k slide since we should all stick together. lol
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-16-13 AT 02:42PM (MST)[p]First off, let me say that I'm speaking only for myself in this post and not for any group I belong to (UWC, MDF, NRA) or any that I have belonged to (BGF, RMEF, NAHC, P&Y) but it seems to me that this discussion misses the mark(s).

Second, I DON"T hate BGF, SFW, MDF or RMEF or any of the conservation groups in question! They do indeed do a lot of good work for wildlife and I also hope they continue. However, I don't always agree with their policies, proposals, methods, or motivations and am willing to challenge them on this issues.

Third, I don't think my challenges are the dividing factor. I already disagreed with those policies, etc. long ago, but didn't have a strong voice prior to retirement and finding UWC. The few times I was able to attend RAC and Wildlife Board meetings back then, I was pretty much alone in those meetings, even though I had friends and family that agreed with me. They just couldn't make the meetings. Now I feel I (and they) have a say in the policy making. It may seem that the divisions are recent and are a result of this and other debates, but the divisions were already there. It's just that now we're hearing both sides of the issues.

Fourth, MDF, SFW and now BGF are being questioned only because they are receiving public funds with no accounting. In the case of MDF and SFW, it's the Convention Application fees (approx. $1,000,000 per year) and in the case of BGF, it's the $900,000 from general funds.

Fifth, The Conservation permits received by MDF, SFW, RMEF, FNAWS, NWTF, UBA, and SCI aren't at issue when it comes to accounting for public funds. Thirty percent of those funds go directly to the DWR. If an accounting of those funds is in order, the DWR should make it. Then sixty percent of those original funds goes only into projects approved or initiated by the DWR. (Per the agreements, the remaining 10% is kept by the organization with no accounting necessary.) As each project is completed, an accounting is given to the DWR and it includes the money spent and what it was spent for. Bottom line, ALL public monies received by the groups for Conservation Permits that is subject to accounting/audits is accounted for. It's in the agreement. The accounting you may see from RMEF may seem vague, but the accounting given to the DWR is not and that's why the State of Utah isn't now challenging the use of those funds. (That program and the CWMU program were part of the audit I cited, 2011-14. If you want more details, go the Office of the Legislative Auditor General's website.)

Lastly, I am MUCH more concerned about the health of the herds, particularly mule deer, than I am about the number of trophies, or even the number of permits! But what I see is that the proposals being made and the policies being implimented have very little to do with the general health of the herds while slashing my opportunities to hunt. I would and will champion lost opportunities if those lost opportunities were/are necessary for the health of the resources, but the loss of statewide archery, antler restrictions, permit reductions, increased buck to doe and bull to cow ratios, "overcrowding", and shorter seasons aren't among them. I am not interested in shutting down MDF, SFW, BGF, RMEF or anyone else! There's certainly a place for them in the hunting community, but there's a place for me too and I don't want them to continue making policies that push me out of my place and I am willing to say so.
If that's being devisive, then so be it. When they (whoever) realize that I (and 80% of Utah hunters and fishermen) can be an ally then I'll be able to back off and become more cooperative. As it is now, I feel I can only cooperate on projects that biologically benefit the resources without socially reducing opportunity (fin clipping, p & j lopping, bitterbrush seed planting) or on projects that can give us more insight regarding the above (deer transplant, this audit, Utah State Archive research/donation).

I'm sorry that many on this forum (and others) take things so personally, but I hope I'm not one of them. I'll debate policies, but the namecalling and insults aren't my cup of tea.

Well, I gotta go! Havta find out if pronghorns like apples as much as deer. Always more research, huh!
 
Gotta be honest here Elk, I don't know what is so hard to understand about you post. I think the majority(90%) feel the same way.
 

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