NM Aborting Bear Hunt?

[Mammoth]

I heard from word of mouth that the "New" game commissioners are calling a special meeting to Terminate this years Bear hunt in NM. Anyone know where I can see it in writing? I already checked the meeting minutes on the G&F page.

 

[nmelk13]

Mammoth,
They will probably shorten the season. This is from one of the new commissioners taking out of the journal!!!!!!!!

Commissioner Peter Pino of Zia Pueblo said hunting seasons for bear and cougar are too long. He said hunting those animals needs to be treated differently from deer and elk because bears and cougars "have spiritual significance to pueblo people."
"It's not the animals' fault," Pino said. "It's ours ? people who build their homes in the mountains. We have to modify our behavior."



NMELK13

 

[af]

The Albuquerque Journal had an article this past Saturday about the bear hunts. The next time the game comission meets they will address the bear season. Radio stations were already talking about it this A.M. :-(

Turn out the Lights the party's over :-(

af

 

[WayCool]

We're SCREWED !!!

Three tree huggers on the commission and one that claims to "support hunting".. (why would they deem it necessary to state they support hunting ?? less they are worried folks might think otherwise)

Two of them are active members of the Audobon Society... my question is this.. the G&F of NM is funded by sales of Hunting and Fishing licenses (and Pittman Robertson...) but the Gov appoints three people that are ANTI hunting ???

Like I said... we're screwed !!! I'm outraged... where's the next meeting ???

I'm there !

Steve Lithgow
http://www.waycoolkennels.com

 

[WayCool]

Lets see... our lion and bear seasons are too long.. ALL of our lion season is on a quota... so how in the hell can the season be too long ??? What's worse is there's 3 weeks left in the lion season.. and only 2 of the quota's have filled and one of them is a 3 lion zone!!!!

The bear population is estimated to be 6000 (per 10 year study completed in 1999) and the managment quota is 10% .. there have been 700 bears taken in each of the last two seasons.... thats 11.6%.. What they don't say is how many of those were depredation takings.. even still its within a percentage point of being right on the money... I was wanting a persuit season.. but hell I'll be happy to have any season at all when the Audobon commissioners finish with us...


For those interesed here is the article:

Commissioner Montoya works for the Audobon Society and Pino is an indian... wait a minute.. I thought the resevervations were sovereign nations...?? Whats he doing on the commission.. they darn sure ain't letting us hunt on the res !!!!


http://www.abqjournal.com/news/apbear03-07-03.htm

Game Commission May Reduce Bear Hunts


The Associated Press
SANTA FE ? The state Game Commission next month will consider cutting back on the number of black bears hunters are allowed to kill in New Mexico, after record numbers of bears were killed over the past two years.
Gov. Bill Richardson replaced all seven commissioners when he took office in January. The previous commission, under Gov. Gary Johnson, lengthened bear and cougar hunting seasons in response to complaints from ranchers about predators and after a bear killed a 93-year-old Mora County woman in her home in August 2001.
New Mexico hunters averaged 250 to 300 bears killed each year, but killed more than 700 in each of the last two years. The state has an estimated 5,000 to 6,000 black bears.
Commissioner Jennifer Atchley Montoya of Las Cruces asked fellow commissioners Thursday to decide whether to rewrite this year's bear-hunting regulations next month.
"It seems we've got a constituency that has great concerns about this," Montoya said. "I want to make sure we're not damaging the (bear) populations. We have some people that believe we're doing that."
About a dozen people asked the commission to tighten bear-hunting regulations. Members of Sandia Mountain Bearwatch said bear-human conflicts could be avoided if people would not leave out garbage and other things that attract bears.
Commissioner Peter Pino of Zia Pueblo said hunting seasons for bear and cougar are too long. He said hunting those animals needs to be treated differently from deer and elk because bears and cougars "have spiritual significance to pueblo people."
"It's not the animals' fault," Pino said. "It's ours ? people who build their homes in the mountains. We have to modify our behavior."
Jay Taylor of the New Mexico Houndsmen Association disagreed.
"I think you need to treat bears and cougars the same as the rest of the natural resources. They need to be managed," Taylor said.
Drought and a failed acorn crop in the mountains two summers ago brought dozens of hungry bears into Raton in northeastern New Mexico.
Now, Raton resident Beverly Lang said, she's concerned bears are being wiped out by landowners and game officers.
"Since that time, I have not seen one cub," she said. "There is another thing to take into consideration, with the drought and burned areas. I think that the prior commission did not take any of this into consideration."
Some hunters and outfitters said the complaints about hunting were exaggerated and emotional.
"Their objective is to end bear hunting," said hunter George Hobbs. "We have a really high population of bear. Hunters would be the first ones to start screaming if we felt the bear were being overhunted."
Bears currently are hunted from Aug. 1-29 and Sept. 25-Nov. 15 statewide with a bow-only season Aug. 30-Sept. 22. The Sandia and Manzano mountains near Albuquerque are open for rifle hunts only from Oct. 15-Nov. 15. Landowners and ranchers leasing property for grazing may kill any bear that has killed livestock or poses an immediate threat to human life or property.


Steve Lithgow
http://www.waycoolkennels.com

 

[edhunter]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-03 AT 02:23PM (MST)[p]I may be the voice crying in the wind but I think that way too many bears have been killed the last couple of years. In a little honey hole I was trying to keep from getting wiped out, two outfitters brought 5 clients in a killed 5 of the 11 bears active there. We caught 3 more and took the standard video of each before watching them scapmer away or in one case, just fall back asleep as we left the tree.

I know it is National Forest but I'm telling you right now, had the outfitters been able to coax a few hundered dollars out of the muzzle loader deer hunters they would have killed any that would tree. I say enough is enough. No they didn't do anything illegal so where is my b!tch. My b!tch is with the one guy who proposed to my partner and I that we book Korean clients by the bus load for $1,000/hunter. "They will kill any bear treed for the gall bladder" he explains. My only response was, "what do I chase the next year?". That was the last hunt I went on with him.

I'm not talking statewide here folks, just my area in Western New Mexico. Last year sucked compared to 2001 and 2001 sucked compared to 2000. Until we all learn that every bear that climbs doesn't need to be shot out we're going to be fighting a loosing battle. I'm sorry for the reduced season and whatever else they do to us. That will really suck to not be out chasing this fall. Hopefully they will just eliminate the August season and hunt bears when the hides are good not green.

Ed, www.swhounds.com

 

[RLH]

Ed, you're probably right about bears in new mex and Az. they have really took a pounding the last few years. and guys are shooting all the easy ones that hang around roads and stuff. nobody is getting off in the rough stuff after the big ones. only thing that bothers me about ever backing off on a hunt or doing away with one is that you never get it back. what has happened in california and colorado is spooky for sure. another thing that bothers me is how much it seems that other hunters, i.e. non-dogmen, are willing to give up dogmen as a sacrificial lamb to appease the anti's. this deal about saying that bears and lions are some religious deal really smokes me, too. i'll bet a paycheck that there is an anti-hunter in that jokers woodpile somewhere. someone gave him the idea to use that angle. i'd even bet there was money exchanged too. the san carlos apaches are claiming that the telescope on mt. graham (actually emerald peak) is on some sacred land now too and want it removed. they waited until 10 years after it was started. guess they forgot it was sacred. my kin has ran cattle there for over 100 years and nobody ever remembers seeing an apache there, ever, for any reason. now they're claiming all kinds of hardship because of the scopes. i think the scopes are pretty much BS too and don't see a lot of reason for them. but come on, there ain't been a dozen apaches in history ever humped it up there and they've only been in that country for maybe 100 years before the whiteman. lets get real about this sh!t, people. use some statistics. not voodoo crap.

 

[bullwidgeon]

Being dogless I will weigh in from the spot and stalkers veiw on bear hunting. The bears are getting hammered especially the weener bears close to roads and not just by dog guys. I can think of at least 4 guide services that offer "Bear in the Pear" spot and stalk hunts here in AZ and some of them shoot any bear out there(100 pounders preferably because they are easier to pack). I hate to see seasons close down as I think it will be a giant headache to ever get them re-opened. I don't know if they need to go to fall draw hunts(maybe that is best and maybe that would make some people think twice about whacking little bears if they had to wait till they got drawn again to go hunting) or lower the sow quotas or actually enforce the don't shoot a sow with cubs rule, I have seen chumps actively stalk and attempt to shoot sows with weener bears hanging around... Bear management is a problem and the biggest factor in bear numbers is weather and food base which we can't really control. I would be OK with lowering sow qoutas here in certain units (27, 22 and 23 get hit really hard by both dog guys and spotters) but there are other units (33 and in my opinion 28) that a limited hunt could occur in that they have no hunt for, or in 28's case actually raise the sow quota. If New Mexico loses hunting days because the G&F over there is a bunch of bunny huggers that is sad, because they will not likely ever get back lost days especially if the drought continues. We have had good rain so far but 1 year is not going to get us out of this hole. Sometimes it seems that all we can really do is pray for better weather and do our part to not shoot bears that shouldn't be shot. And as far as Graham being sacred, thats a whole different mess and I am not even going there...
Bret M.

 

[RLH]

bullwidgeon, i assume you're talking about Az. units? or new mex? when i added the scope deal being on "sacred" ground, i was just trying to show some sort of connection. anti's will use anything. the scopes were built and working before the medicine men started complaining. like i said, i guess they forgot it was "sacred". i'm sure some anti reminded them. i'm sure this religeous deal in new mex is the same thing. i'm sick of these no good @%#$^$'s trying to use goody goody BS instead of tried and true science to manage game. i think 28 in Az. has some of the biggest bears anywhere. the 2 biggest bears i've ever seen were there. killed one, watched the other one waddle off. wasn't in season. the big one i shot was near 500 lbs. the other one was noticeably bigger. looked like a griz. there aren't many in 28, but it could stand a few permits each year. if it don't offend someone's religion. i think i'll start a new church that requires............ aw, never mind.

 

[WayCool]

Well I'm sorry there's no bears left in NM... cause I damn sure didn't kill them.. never killed a bear.. never had one killed over my sorry dogs either...

10% is 10% no matter how you turn it... that's number that has been agreed upon by MANY biologists to be easily sustainable...

We just finished a 10 year study here and it included population estimates.. .so there it IS.

Are there bad years? YES.. but we're not in a 10 year drought..(least not yet) and while I would agree the mast was not average last year... it also was not dire either... there was alot more mast that I saw than some are leading others to believe... and that doesn't include juniper and other production... I can take you places right now where the ground is litterally purple with last years berries.. the bears will be eating good this spring..

The fact of the matter is... NM G&F needs to manage game based on FACTS and Statistics NOT by emotion or what I or Ed or anyone else says..... Even as many places as I hunted last year I only scratched the surface as far a finding bears to run(and I never hunted north of I-40 at ALL).. so I can't tell you how the population is affected by hunters.. none of the places I went lacked bears... Also remember we had several two bear units last year.. and that's not happening this year...

If it makes you feel better Ed.. next time you come over this way holler at me I'll tell you where there's some bears for you to catch... heaven knows my flea bags aint catchin them...

BUT PLEASE leave our dang bear season alone !!! At this point there is NO justification for changing it.. We don't have persuit like you boys .. so give us a little support will ya ?

FWIW, I have a copy of the statistics for the last three years on the way from Santa Fe.. I'll be glad to post the info once I have it...

Steve Lithgow
http://www.waycoolkennels.com

 

[edhunter]

A couple of items might help this discussion out.
1- Arizona doesn't have pursuit. We can run lions year around and some bears do get caught when the dogs "trash" on bears instead of staying on the lion.
2- Until 2 years ago the season in New Mex was archery with no dogs in September and general season starting October 1st. That changed when people started getting mauled in Northern New Mexico and bears were in every town and climbing fruit trees and even power poles.

Last year the season opened for the month of August, closed most of September (except archery) and opened again in late September and ran until mid November. Those are the facts. So giving up August when the bears are in poor shape physically and thier hides suck doesn't seem to be too big of problem to me. Propose a pursuit season in August but I'm not a believer in killing a bear before the middle of September.

3- When bear harvests go from 4% to 11.5% we all ought to take notice. I'm not saying that I agree with the "sacred" nature of bears at all. I'm not a bunny hugger and I've even dropped the hammer on a bear and may do so in the future. What I am saying is the harvest in the last 2 years has gone up by 200% and exceeded the harvest objective. I'd hate to call all the commission "bunny huggers" when looking at the numbers the harvest has exceeded what was intended. This should be alarming to all of us because the mast hasn't been up to par in most areas. I appreciate Waycool for pointing out that some areas will have a good supply of juniper berries. Those bears should fare well. From Gallup to Glenwood isn't in the same condition. These bears will be hurting to raise cubs and put on winter fat unless the rains continue.

Ed, www.swhounds.com

 

[af]

Ed,

The current game commission ( as I understand ) is comprised of all new members. I don't think anyone knows how much they like to "hug the bunnies" just yet. They are questioning the harvest objectives that the previous commision had in place. Hopefully they are ONLY going to consider abandoning the August hunt. Who knows it could get worse.

All I know is I sure don't want my hunting season time reduced. No way. Thank God my wife is not on the commission, because she sure thinks bear and lion seasons are too long

Who has information on joining the NM HOUNDSMAN ASSOC ???
The least I can do is send in a few bucks to help the cause.


af

 

[HoundDawg]

I know very little about New Mexico bears, but I have been mauled by a few women from Shiprock that were bare.

I will say this... I saw on the news the other night here in Utah the biologists went into some bear dens. They were sows and not one of them had a cub.

The interesting part was when they said the one sow they checked on has ALWAYS had cubs in the past, regardless of weather conditions. They were pretty shocked that even she was barren.

Bears don't bounce back as quickly as deer, elk, lions, etc... from an over kill or drought conditions that effect birth.

Your elk population can get down and bounce back big in a couple of years. Bears aren't like that. Your bear population gets down it's going to take some years to bring it back.

I think this needs to be taken into consideration when you are managing them. California is really where we should have our eyes right now in my opinion. They get an all out ban on hound hunting in California, watch out!!!

Just my drunken meanderings... -Dawg

 

[bullwidgeon]

RLH,
I am talking about Arizona and I think there are more bears in unit 28 than game and fish thinks. Some of those bears never leave the desert to go back on top and live there year round, I have even seen fresh sign in December in "bad" or non-traditional bear habitat there. The Graham telescope thing is a joke but I am willing to make a trade....We give them Mt Graham and we get the Black River and Santa Theresas. ;-) Any takers from the tribe out there? Bwaahahahaha!!!
Bret M.

 

[Kevin D]

The fact that New Mexico's game commissioner wants to reduce bear harvest in and of itself doesn't bother me, as long as the reasoning is based on scientiffic biological data. What Ed says makes sense, no true sportsmen or houndsman wants to see the resource diminished by over harvest. But what I find alarming, however, is when they are basing their conclusions, as they seem to be in this case, on social or ethical concerns. I'm afraid this doesn't bode well for sportsmen in New Mexico. Once decision makers move away from using scientiffic data as a criteria for evaluating wildlife policy, hunters, and houndsmen in particular, lose. It's that slippery slope thing.

Let's hope sportsmen in New Mexico can unite to reverse this disturbing trend in its early stages. Science should be the only criteria for judging wildlife policy.

 

[RLH]

sounds like most a lot of these outfitters are guiding asians for gall bladders and shooting a bunch of little bears too. seems to me that shooting all the bears just so some chinaman can get it up is a real poor reason. maybe the g&f oughta buy em some viagra.

 

[NMhuntnutt]

I spoke to Bill Dunn last week , he dropped by my work and we got to talking . Bill works with the bear bilogists , helps with studys including harvest data and such , but non the less I asked him if our bear numbers were really that bad , and he said not at all , that numbers have always fluctuated from year to year , and it was still too early to find out where the numbers stand . We did have less cubs born last year , but we've already had better moisture this winter than last year , hopefully producing alot more vegitation and strengthening habitat= more sows being bred hense , more cubs born , numbers fluctuate , but more support will be needed from outdoorsmen at meetings before any decisions are made ....NMhuntnutt....PS ,waycool , its about time you get a bear down with your dogs , I'll be down ,just say when,lol , I saw your folks awhile back eatin dinner at the Outback

 

[WayCool]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-13-03 AT 08:42AM (MST)[p]Hey NMHN.. how you been bro ?? Good I hope !!

Your always welcome at my place bro.. but you know that already

I sent Steve Henry and Bill Dunn an email .. they are supposed to get me the numbers... Steve said the same thing to me that Bill said to you...

If the pops are down significantly.. then lets reduce the harvest... by all means.. Unfortunately that judgement doesn't appear to be based on FACTS but rather emotion...

The numbers are extremely important... especially since we had several two bear units last year(which I think was a total mistake, fwiw).. And the dep numbers are important too...

Until I see the numbers and hear from Officer Dunn.. I say leave the proclamation alone.

Also.. for what its worth.. the August season was introduced primarily because in the past the G&F was using bear density numbers that were flat innaccurate.. to the tune of 80%.. Prior to the latest estimates founded during the 10 year study.. pops for the state were 3500 bears... Following the study it was determined that numbers were closer to 5-6000 bears... Thus the justification of the August season...

btw Ed, I met a fella yesterday that bought a dog or two from you... Apache Creek Outfitters .. Nice folks !!! Enjoyed their company yesterday !!

Steve Lithgow
http://www.waycoolkennels.com