No More Baiting

[Hawkeye]

Guys, put on your big boy pants and stop crying and whining. We have have a robust debate without acting link teenage girls. I think we all agree that there are numerous factors that are contributing to the decline of mule deer. Obiously, there is no single cause to the decline and no single change will solve the problem.

What gets me is that some folks think it is all or nothing. To quote Elkass we have to implement his "Hell-Right" option or else we might as well do nothing. Sorry, but I disagree with that approach. As a concerned sportsmen, I support changes that will help our animals, including banning trail cameras, magnified muzzleloader scopes, baiting, and anterless tags. Will that solve the entire problem? No. But that would be a start. Then we can reassess and see what other steps we can take to help our herds. Increased predator management, additional wildlife overpasses and highway fencing, limitations on long range shooting equipment, less big money tags and CMWU tags are other areas to explore.

I am willing to make some sacrifices in order to help our herds and hopefully increase opportunity, quantity and quality in the future. Are you? I would like to see the DWR engage sportsmen with some researched and well thought out options that they will believe will help our herds, and all options should be on the table.

Hawkeye

 

[Founder]

Just like it's ignorant to think that you and your site along with other social media haven't had some determent to our herds?

No one has said that? I didn’t say that? Never said my site, or me personally, hasn’t played a role. What I pushed back on was being listed as a top 5 reason. And I think that’s ridiculous.

 

[Founder]

Guys, put on your big boy pants and stop crying and whining. We have have a robust debate without acting link teenage girls. I think we all agree that there are numerous factors that are contributing to the decline of mule deer. Obiously, there is no single cause to the decline and no single change will solve the problem.

What gets me is that some folks think it is all or nothing. To quote Elkass we have to implement his "Hell-Right" option or else we might as well do nothing. Sorry, but I disagree with that approach. As a concerned sportsmen, I support changes that will help our animals, including banning trail cameras, magnified muzzleloader scopes, baiting, and anterless tags. Will that solve the entire problem? No. But that would be a start. Then we can reassess and see what other step we can take to help our herds. Increased predator management, additional wildlife overpasses and highway fencing, limitations on long range shooting equipment, less big money tags and CMWU tags are other areas to explore.

I am willing to make some sacrifices in order to help our herds and hopefully increase opportunity, quantify and quality in the future. Are you? I would like to see the DWR engage sportsmen with some researched and well thought out options that they will believe will help our herds, and all options should be on the table.

Hawkeye

I apologize for hijacking the thread, but I had to push back on what I consider an attack on me personally and most of all, this site.
I’d agree there are a lot of issues to look at and I have no issue with regulation that reduces success rates and improve herd quantity and quality and hunter opportunity.

 

[UtyoteKiller]

No one has said that? I didn’t say that? Never said my site, or me personally, hasn’t played a role. What I pushed back on was being listed as a top 5 reason. And I think that’s ridiculous.

You don't agree that social media and the attention it brings isn't in the top 5? Why?

 

[UtyoteKiller]

Guys, put on your big boy pants and stop crying and whining. We have have a robust debate without acting link teenage girls. I think we all agree that there are numerous factors that are contributing to the decline of mule deer. Obiously, there is no single cause to the decline and no single change will solve the problem.

What gets me is that some folks think it is all or nothing. To quote Elkass we have to implement his "Hell-Right" option or else we might as well do nothing. Sorry, but I disagree with that approach. As a concerned sportsmen, I support changes that will help our animals, including banning trail cameras, magnified muzzleloader scopes, baiting, and anterless tags. Will that solve the entire problem? No. But that would be a start. Then we can reassess and see what other step we can take to help our herds. Increased predator management, additional wildlife overpasses and highway fencing, limitations on long range shooting equipment, less big money tags and CMWU tags are other areas to explore.

I am willing to make some sacrifices in order to help our herds and hopefully increase opportunity, quantify and quality in the future. Are you? I would like to see the DWR engage sportsmen with some researched and well thought out options that they will believe will help our herds, and all options should be on the table.

Hawkeye

Yes let's take the scopes back of the muzzy's, let's also go back to scopeless 30-30, 45-70's on the rifle hunt. Let's make hunting challenging again. Also end the CWMU program and cut way back on "conservation" tags.

 

[cannonball]

Zeke-

Sportsmen who are willing to consider limiting technology in an effort to improve opportunity, quantity and quality has nothing to do with gun control. As a sportsman, I would be willing to part ways with my trail cameras, my 3x9 power muzzleloader scope, my slider archery sight, etc., in an effort to help level the playing field with the animals. I view these efforts originating from sportsmen as promoting conservation and fair chase not as some effort by outsiders to exert control over us. As technolopgy continues to develop and evolve, we as sportsmen better be willing to regulate ourselves or there will be nothing left for our kids.

The gun contol measures from the left, on the other hand, are an entirely different issue.

Jason

Well put Hawkeye. Forward this on to the WB and the DWR. Maybe they would read it. They are asking for input right now.

 

[Master Baiter]

So it’s not the people who use the new hunting gear, guns, optics, websites, hunt services who are to blame, but just those who built it? That’s my whole point! Take some of the blame yourself.
You really agree that YouTube, forums, social media, my consulting business are the top things that has sent deer hunting into the toilet? Come on! You know as well as I do that’s ridiculous. Colorado went to a 3 day season before any of those things even existed.

Apparently it’s only your s**t that doesn’t stink.

interesting take on that. But about par for the course, considering who it is I’m talkin to

 

[Founder]

You don't agree that social media and the attention it brings isn't in the top 5? Why?

Because the deer herd diminished to a quarter of its size before social media even existed. Colorado had gone to a 3 day season before I even began this site, which came before nearly all other social media type sites(YouTube, FB, etc).
Was hunting in 2000 all that fantastic compared to now? No.
Is social media and ones ability to talk about hunting really more detrimental to deer than the 1,000 yard rifle, the ATV’s, increased expendable income, etc., etc.??? No, not even close.
Sure, the ability to communicate more efficiently probably does play a role, and me helping those 5 guys a year on a spot to hunt might have caused an extra deer to have died in the past 5 years, but are they really in the top 5, or even 10? Not even close and I’d be shocked if you thought that extra deer that “might” have died because of my consulting should really result in my consulting being a top 5 for anyone. Come on, that post was an attack on me and this website and a few other little things that are convenient targets.
Not even trail cameras are a top 5 reason as to what has sent things into the toilet!

 

[Founder]

Apparently it’s only your s**t that doesn’t stink.

interesting take on that. But about par for the course, considering who it is I’m talkin to

Is that what I said?

 

[UtyoteKiller]

Because the deer herd diminished to a quarter of its size before social media even existed. Colorado had gone to a 3 day season before I even began this site, which came before nearly all other social media type sites(YouTube, FB, etc).
Was hunting in 2000 all that fantastic compared to now? No.
Is social media and ones ability to talk about hunting really more detrimental to deer than the 1,000 yard rifle, the ATV’s, increased expendable income, etc., etc.??? No, not even close.
Sure, the ability to communicate more efficiently probably does play a role, and me helping those 5 guys a year on a spot to hunt might have caused an extra deer to have died in the past 5 years, but are they really in the top 5, or even 10? Not even close and I’d be shocked if you thought that extra deer that “might” have died because of my consulting should really result in my consulting being a top 5 for anyone. Come on, that post was an attack on me and this website and a few other little things that are convenient targets.
Not even trail cameras are a top 5 reason as to what has sent things into the toilet!

We aren't taking about Colorado here, stay on track. Hunting was leaps and bounds better in 2000 than it is now no question. Social media (yes your site is social media) definitely helped create the long range craze. It helped make it a who's is bigger competition, it made it how much is X animal worth? Downhill since.

 

[Founder]

We aren't taking about Colorado here, stay on track. Hunting was leaps and bounds better in 2000 than it is now no question. Social media (yes your site is social media) definitely helped create the long range craze. It helped make it a who's is bigger competition, it made it how much is X animal worth? Downhill since.

OK

 

[roadrunner]

Oh bother!!!!! Cancel your account because I think your opinion is wrong?!?!? My heck!!! Don’t be a boob.
I think lots of people’s opinions are wrong! I typically don’t push back much unless I’m in the crosshairs of the opinion that I think is wrong.
I guess I have to be better at biting my tongue. If I voice my opinion people run away.

My opinion is the only one that matters to you

 

[Master Baiter]

Is that what I said?

That’s exactly what you implied. It’s everyone else fault, not yours. Point fingers in all directions but at yourself. Even the other business owners. But certainly not you. ?

 

[Master Baiter]

Oh bother!!!!! Cancel your account because I think your opinion is wrong?!?!? My heck!!! Don’t be a boob.
I think lots of people’s opinions are wrong! I typically don’t push back much unless I’m in the crosshairs of the opinion that I think is wrong.
I guess I have to be better at biting my tongue. If I voice my opinion people run away.

You’ve canceled others accounts because you thought they were wrong or their opinion was wrong. The only boob here currently, is you.

 

[Founder]

My opinion is the only one that matters to you

Absolutely! I've been told I delete all opinions that I don't agree with, so obviously I always agree with yours and all others that survive my delete crazy finger.

 

[UtyoteKiller]

OK

Good conversation skills right there.

 

[Zeke]

Hawkey summed it up. (with whom I disagree often and I still consider an internet friend)
Too many hackles are up and way too much finger-pointing.
Take a deep breath and we all can voice our opinions and have a discussion without all the sidebar crap.
It is a touchy subject and we all look at it differently. Hunters are notoriously self sufficient and independent so I see this as one reason we don't play well together...but we'd better start doing a better job at it before the resource is gone and we wonder WTheck.
Zeke

 

[Founder]

You’ve canceled others accounts because you thought they were wrong or their opinion was wrong. The only boob here currently, is you.

You don't know what you're talking about! My ban list contains 9 names and 6 of them were recently banned for issues with scam attempts. Two can't follow rules, one is another account created by one of the 2 who refused to follow rules.
I know my business, you have zero clue.

 

[Founder]

That’s exactly what you implied. It’s everyone else fault, not yours. Point fingers in all directions but at yourself. Even the other business owners. But certainly not you. ?

OK

 

[Founder]

Hawkey summed it up. (with whom I disagree often and I still consider an internet friend)
Too many hackles are up and way too much finger-pointing.
Take a deep breath and we all can voice our opinions and have a discussion without all the sidebar crap.
It is a touchy subject and we all look at it differently. Hunters are notoriously self sufficient and independent so I see this as one reason we don't play well together...but we'd better start doing a better job at it before the resource is gone and we wonder WTheck.
Zeke

You're right! I get worked up just like most people would and get sucked into sharing my opposing opinion and push back on the opinion I think is way off. Then out comes the "remove my account" crap. Had anyone else on this site pushed back against that post of his, do you really think he'd be throwing a fit wanting his account deleted? Would he post in the thread for me to delete his account? Heck no! He'd have moved on like all of us do. It's just a tactic to try and punish Founder for not agreeing.
I do apologize for ruining the fine baiting discussion that was going on.

 

[Hawkeye]

Let's get back on track. For those of you who oppose a ban on baiting and limiting trail cameras, where would you recommend that we as sportsmen focus our attention as a starting point to help our deer herds? More tag cuts, shortened seasons, road and trail closures, a ban on finder's fees, more conservation permits, etc.? Where do you recommend that we start? Identify 2-3 proposed changes that you believe would make a difference.

And just for the record, Elkass' 50+point "Hell-Right" approach is not feasible. I love you Elkass but it does not have to be all or nothing!

Hawkeye

 

[Bocephus]

You're right! I get worked up just like most people would and get sucked into sharing my opposing opinion and push back on the opinion I think is way off. Then out comes the "remove my account" crap. Had anyone else on this site pushed back against that post of his, do you really think he'd be throwing a fit wanting his account deleted? Would he post in the thread for me to delete his account? Heck no! He'd have moved on like all of us do. It's just a tactic to try and punish Founder for not agreeing.
I do apologize for ruining the fine baiting discussion that was going on.

I'm trying to move on, deactivate my acct. like I've asked you 6 times now. You won't hear my offensive, punishing, tactic driven opinion again haha wow!

 

[Founder]

I'm trying to move on, deactivate my acct. like I've asked you 6 times now. You won't hear my offensive, punishing, tactic driven opinion again haha wow!

Geesh, just not posting for a few hours must be really hard. I've now forced you to stop.....for you. Kind of weird. I guess it's like an alcoholic asking the bartender to not serve him drinks when he comes into the bar.

 

[elkantlers]

I had a ham sandwich for lunch. It was good, but not great.

 

[Master Baiter]

You don't know what you're talking about! My ban list contains 9 names and 6 of them were recently banned for issues with scam attempts. Two can't follow rules, one is another account created by one of the 2 who refused to follow rules.
I know my business, you have zero clue.

Only one who doesn’t seem to have a clue is you. Proving my point further, is your inability to accept that your form of “technology” has had negative impacts on hunting, hunters and wildlife. It’s everyone else’s fault, not yours. including the guys that pay YOU to advertise on your platform. Without their business, your business would not exist. But you still point the finger in their direction for selling products and selling a service that you have determined to be the issue with the declining numbers of wildlife.

that’s kinda like a drug addict blaming the dealers and manufacturers for their addictions and problems. Point the fingers everywhere but in their own direction.

 

[Founder]

Only one who doesn’t seem to have a clue is you. Proving my point further, is your inability to accept that your form of “technology” has had negative impacts on hunting, hunters and wildlife. It’s everyone else’s fault, not yours. including the guys that pay YOU to advertise on your platform. Without their business, your business would not exist. But you still point the finger in their direction for selling products and selling a service that you have determined to be the issue with the declining numbers of wildlife.

that’s kinda like a drug addict blaming the dealers and manufacturers for their addictions and problems. Point the fingers everywhere but in their own direction.

 

[notdonhunting]

I have choose not to use trail cameras or bait. I don't need someone to tell me not to do something, I make my own choices.
I do not make that choice to not use a trail cameras because I fell they are unethical or because the hunter that chooses to use a trail cameras is less of a hunter for using trail cameras, I choose not to use them because that is not the way I hunt and yes there is alot of guys more successful than me. But I have never cared if they used a trail camera or not.
I have a few question to the guys that use trail cameras.
On this site I would dare to guess 3/4 of users of this site use trail cameras in one way or another and after reading comments on the many different threads about making trail cameras illegal I would dare to bet around half of the guys that use trail cameras have made comments stating that they would be happy to stop using trail cameras if they was to be made illegal.
So for the ones that say they would be happy to stop using trail cameras if they are maide illegal. Why don't you just stop using trail cameras?
I know trail cameras are great for scouting and scouting is 50 percent or more of being successful but would you have hunted that area even if you did not have a trail camera there to take the pictures?
Would you have scouted the area different and discovered the elk/deer anyway?
How many of the Bucks and/or bulls that you have successfully harvested over the last 10 years was because of the trailcameras?
I am not asking for answers just for you to consider.
I personally do not believe hunting technology has made much of a difference on herd objective.
Quality of bucks/bulls probably yes.
I do belive long range hunting is the biggest problem and the most unethical of all of the modern technology and yes I have a long range gun and a turret scope.
Sorry if this takes away from the original intent of the thread.

 

[cannonball]

I started the post and it really does not take away from my intent. Everyone has their idea on how to give the buck a better chance of survival. I really believe if our deer herds are going to survive, the DWR and WB are going to have to get bold in their approach for making drastic changes even if the sportsmen yell to high heaven. Don't let it rest, but remember this forum is only one of many outlets clear up to the Governor's office.

 

[middlefork]

I personally do not believe hunting technology has made much of a difference on herd objective.
Quality of bucks/bulls probably yes.
.

This ^

I think one needs to prove that killing too many bucks is part of the problem with growing herds. Past tag reductions don't seem to indicate this is so.

If it is a major problem then just shut the unit down. Period.
Easy to enforce and nobody gets their feelings hurt because they can't hunt the way they want to.

If it is all about the money then why have they already cut a bunch of tags without a corresponding price increase?

 

[elkassassin]

I Give Hawkeye Credit for Giving up a few Things to Help the Herds!

But it's Not Enough!

Did You Hear Me Hawkeye?

If You're Takin!

You're Gonna Take from all 3 Weapon Types!

Not only:

HELL-RIGHT!

But!

HELL-F'N-RIGHT!

 

[MooseMeat]

You don't know what you're talking about! My ban list contains 9 names and 6 of them were recently banned for issues with scam attempts. Two can't follow rules, one is another account created by one of the 2 who refused to follow rules.
I know my business, you have zero clue.

That’s a GD lie! You banned 1 account I’ve had for several years, claiming I had made it the week you gave me, and only me, a time out for “harassing” a little round troll from Texas, whose harassed everyone on this forum for anything he can think of. And You banned my main account for calling you out, over PM like you suggest we should always do, for your double standards and claimed I ‘threatened’ you when I mention the word “libel”, then went on to delete the several threads and a few other posts in others, from years ago that contained the exact material I was talking about. Hmmm if that doesn’t scream guilt, I’m not sure what does. I’ve still got screenshots, don’t worry. I didn’t refuse to follow the rules, I disagreed with you! And bam! Gone! Just like the libtards on other forms of social media. Disagree with their personal opinion, ideas or beliefs and they silence you! Obey or go away.

Weren’t you caught up in a few other threads, 1 not too long about where you were talking sh*t on someone that wasn’t true? Then had to make a public apology about it? I’m sure it was only to avoid legal action Haha good work there bud! I’ve hearing you’ve found yourself in other hot water from stuff said on here over the years. Not surprising based upon what I’ve experienced.

Now you’re getting called out for your “businesses’ part in the destruction and downfall to western wildlife, and you’re not even willing to accept any of the blame. Just pointing the fingers at the brands and outfitters who pay to advertise on your “business”, and naming them as the problem. I hope they are reading this thread and see that you aren’t willing to at least shoulder a little of the blame, but instead put it everywhere else you can. Sounds like they’d be better off spending their money and promoting their business elsewhere.

I’m sure this account will now make your short ban list, but it’ll round it off at a nice even #10. Probably the post will deleted all together. It’s ok, I’ve got more. Again, that have been active for years


You’re turning out to be the ultimate hypocrite of the hunting world. Blaming technology and everyone for their role in the decimation of our wildlife, accepting none of the blame yourself, but promoting said technology and outlets allowing hunters to be more proficient at killing animals, resulting in higher success and easier access to information, that otherwise might not exist.

RIP MooseMeat 12/2017-3/26/2021

 

[Founder]

That’s a GD lie! You banned 1 account I’ve had for several years, claiming I had made it the week you gave me, and only me, a time out for “harassing” a little round troll from Texas, whose harassed everyone on this forum for anything he can think of. And You banned my main account for calling you out, over PM like you suggest we should always do, for your double standards and claimed I ‘threatened’ you when I mention the word “libel”, then went on to delete the several threads and a few other posts in others, from years ago that contained the exact material I was talking about. Hmmm if that doesn’t scream guilt, I’m not sure what does. I’ve still got screenshots, don’t worry. I didn’t refuse to follow the rules, I disagreed with you! And bam! Gone! Just like the libtards on other forms of social media. Disagree with their personal opinion, ideas or beliefs and they silence you! Obey or go away.

Weren’t you caught up in a few other threads, 1 not too long about where you were talking sh*t on someone that wasn’t true? Then had to make a public apology about it? I’m sure it was only to avoid legal action Haha good work there bud! I’ve hearing you’ve found yourself in other hot water from stuff said on here over the years. Not surprising based upon what I’ve experienced.

Now you’re getting called out for your “businesses’ part in the destruction and downfall to western wildlife, and you’re not even willing to accept any of the blame. Just pointing the fingers at the brands and outfitters who pay to advertise on your “business”, and naming them as the problem. I hope they are reading this thread and see that you aren’t willing to at least shoulder a little of the blame, but instead put it everywhere else you can. Sounds like they’d be better off spending their money and promoting their business elsewhere.

I’m sure this account will now make your short ban list, but it’ll round it off at a nice even #10. Probably the post will deleted all together. It’s ok, I’ve got more. Again, that have been active for years


You’re turning out to be the ultimate hypocrite of the hunting world. Blaming technology and everyone for their role in the decimation of our wildlife, accepting none of the blame yourself, but promoting said technology and outlets allowing hunters to be more proficient at killing animals, resulting in higher success and easier access to information, that otherwise might not exist.

RIP MooseMeat 12/2017-3/26/2021

Ok ?
Same IP as as as Master Baiter, and almost certainly two of three on my list. You’re a troll and will be banned every time I catch you.

 

[grizzly]

The most enlightening thing I've learned here are that guys are running multiple accounts so they can either avoid bans or to make it look like they have allies on their posts.

 

[elkassassin]

MM IP's Ain't Always Correct!

 

[notdonhunting]

The most enlightening thing I've learned here are that guys are running multiple accounts so they can either avoid bans or to make it look like they have allies on their posts.

I learned something too.
I know nothing!

 

[grizzly]

I learned something too.
I know nothing!

Haha. I like it ??

 

[Hawkeye]

All right Elkass, you want to take from all 3 weapon types, how about limiting technology as follows:

-Muzzleloader: Allow only open sights or 1x scopes. You could also ban sabots and BH 209 powder.
-Archery: Ban slider sights so we go back to fixed pin sights.
-Rifle: Implement some changes that target long-range shooting. I need some help figuring what change or technology ban would be most appropriate. Longe-range shooters please chime in.

The idea is to limitssome of the technology that makes us more effective at killing animals. By doing this, we lower success rates, increase animal survival rates, and hopefully can increase opportunity even though our herds continue to struggle.

If anyone can figure out how to consistently grow our deer herds you get the top prize. Every state in the west gets a failing grade in that category and that is the real problem that nobody has been able to solve over the last 4 decades.

Hawkeye

 

[Dangbig]

All right Elkass, you want to take from all 3 weapon types, how about limiting technology as follows:

-Muzzleloader: Allow only open sights or 1x scopes. You could also ban sabots and BH 209 powder.
-Archery: Ban slider sights so we go back to fixed pin sights.
-Rifle: Implement some changes that target long-range shooting. I need some help figuring what change or technology ban would be most appropriate. Longe-range shooters please chime in.

The idea is to limitssome of the technology that makes us more effective at killing animals. By doing this, we lower success rates, increase animal survival rates, and hopefully can increase opportunity even though our herds continue to struggle.

If anyone can figure out how to consistently grow our deer herds you get the top prize. Every state in the west gets a failing grade in that category and that is the real problem that nobody has been able to solve over the last 4 decades.

Hawkeye

And none of these will help if we don’t also look at habitat for each unit, excess elk in each unit, no quota on cougars, airial coyote hunts and more habitat. Like Elias has said it isn’t 1-5 it’s a GD mess and it has to be addressed unit by unit.

 

[grizzly]

If you found a genie and were given one wish, would you bring back poison for predators or get houses off the foothills?

 

[notdonhunting]

If you found a genie and were given one wish, would you bring back poison for predators or get houses off the foothills?

That is a good question.
I believe predators are a more direct impact on big game and are more wide spread.
But community expansion is a more permanent impact once them houses are built you will never get back that habitat.
But I believe I would just wish to be sent back to the good old days early 1960s.

 

[elkassassin]

So You!

Think One Change Will Fix it?

JUDAS!

If you found a genie and were given one wish, would you bring back poison for predators or get houses off the foothills?

 

[Gator]

Before the CWMU all the huge bucks wasn't trimmed out the herds, CWMU kill more of the older class bucks due to the deer moving in to private lands in fall time. I understand that those CWMU help the private land owners recoup some of their loss in crop damage.
Maybe if they had to close down the outfitter/CWMU every other year and let those CWMU rest a year that might help keeping older class bucks in the breeding herd.
The Bounty on Coyotes shall be in affect for all counties year around with a spotlight agreement with the local GW.

Fawns has to live to grow herds period.

Unit counts should be made before migrant happens so animals aren't counted in 2 different units.
Water sources and feed sources should be expanded to handle more deer and elk if that include some of those BLM and FS lands around those CWMU's so be it. DFG to pay those private landowners $$$$ to keep the animals on private land for their crop damage to grow the herds back might take a few years if they don't it might be a LONG time before it happens.
rotate shutting down units that are under the minimum buck to doe ratio . 20/100 might not be enough in some the heavy hunted units.
Now I don't know about everywhere in Utah if this could works but I know in the units I have hunted I think it could work. I remember them from 20 years ago when we saw alot more deer in a weekend then we do now.
Maybe the elk herds are taken that spot over because we see more elk in those deer area's those 90's units, Guess we need to find a happy middle on that issue. Me I like hunting both.

 

[Hawkeye]

If you found a genie and were given one wish, would you bring back poison for predators or get houses off the foothills?

I would love to see us use poison to aggressively control predators. That is not ever going to happen again but a guy can dream!

 

[DoubleDropMuley]

Let's just blame it on Outdoor Life, they started a magazine in the 1800's!
I personally think declines in quality and opportunity are directly related to decline in quantity, and magazines, websites, videos, record books, etc. have not reduced quantity at all. Those items might effect quality some, but if we had quantity as we did 30 or 50 years ago, quality and opportunity would not be nearly the problem as it is today.
Quantity of game has been impacted by over harvesting, reduced quality of range, increased human encroachment, and other such things, not a website or a video or trailcams or the guy selling information or other things you've blamed.

I know you said you're "not blaming anybody", but that's exactly what you did!

View attachment 35829

Ohhhh shizzzits they used logs as trip lines back in the day ?‍

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Hawkeye!

You'd Kill Some Magpies & Crows!

Like We Ain't Got enough of them!

I would love to see us use poison to aggressively control predators. That is not ever going to happen again but a guy can dream!

 

[JakeSwensen]

The internet was coming with or without monster muleys, I've enjoyed the site since 06'. I think it's a lot better for hunting than Bookface or Instafame! I don't think it's a top reason for the decline of western big game populations. (That's Funny)? The internet has made it easier to see the cream of the crop animals that are killed every fall but it is not the down fall of mule deer. If managers properly managed tag allocations. Do not issue more tags than the resource can handle, then hunting even with long range or 100 yard bows or scoped muzzle guns can't be to blame.
We all know it was the southern Utah apple piles that were to blame. That's why we have this big CWD outbreak! Sheesh, no worries it's been banned, everything will get better from here on out.

 

[slamdunk]

Why do so many people attribute the baiting and trail cams to declining herd numbers?
Completely different issues.....

 

[JakeSwensen]

Why do so many people attribute the baiting and trail cams to declining herd numbers?
Completely different issues.....

I agree.
The baiting and CWD comments were purely sarcasm. I personally believe CWD is being found more often because more testing is being done. I am however glad baiting has been banned in Utah, long over due...

 

[deadibob]

Why is everyone so up in arms on the muzzleloaders scopes deal? Has anyone bothered to do a little research at past harvest data? Look at the data pre scope days compared to now. Generally speaking, success rates are still the same as they once were.

so what are we gaining by eliminating scopes? Absolutely nothing? Or do we just like to complain and cry about every little thing since it’s 2021 and our feelings are always hurt. If success jumped from 30-40% to 60-75% success, I can understand the argument. But when it stays the same...? C’mon! Really?

There is no harvest data, between that and no real herd number data is where the problem begins. These SWAG's aren't helping anything.

 

[cannonball]

Just look at it. With all of the muzzleloader and scope technology we have today and more on the way. Changes need to happen and it is as obvious as the nose on your face. These guns and scopes should not even be allowed on the muzzleloader hunt. When that hunt was originally set up it was set up as a primitive hunt. Look what it has evolved into! A real modern gun hunt.

 

[Gator]

CannonBall
I guess you can say the same thing about Archery and MODERN Rifles vs the old 30-30

 

[elkassassin]

Says the Guy that Doesn't Hunt with a SmokePole evident ally!

How many High Tech Bows or Long Range Rifles You Totin?

Just look at it. With all of the muzzleloader and scope technology we have today and more on the way. Changes need to happen and it is as obvious as the nose on your face. These guns and scopes should not even be allowed on the muzzleloader hunt. When that hunt was originally set up it was set up as a primitive hunt. Look what it has evolved into! A real modern gun hunt.

 

[buckhorn]

Says the Guy that Doesn't Hunt with a SmokePole evident ally!

How many High Tech Bows or Long Range Rifles You Totin?

whenever someone mentions getting rid of high powered scopes on the muzzleloader hunt you get all defensive. What’s up with that?
You want change to help the deer herds and buck quality this would be a step in the right direction!

 

[elkassassin]

I Don't Have any Problem With it!

But If SmokePolers are gonna Give!

So Are Archers!

And So Are Long Range Riflelers!

What's Fair For One Weapon Should Be Fair Trade for others!

SOME GAVE ALL! (NOT!)

ALL GAVE SOME! (YES!)

We Are All Guilty of some of the BS that's going on in today's Hunting World!

Would You Agree to that?

Or Do You Think The SmokePolers are the only Problem?

whenever someone mentions getting rid of high powered scopes on the muzzleloader hunt you get all defensive. What’s up with that?
You want change to help the deer herds and buck quality this would be a step in the right direction!

 

[grizzly]

I Don't Have any Problem With it!

But If SmokePolers are gonna Give!

So Are Archers!

And So Are Long Range Riflelers!

What's Fair For One Weapon Should Be Fair Trade for others!

SOME GAVE ALL! (NOT!)

ALL GAVE SOME! (YES!)

We Are All Guilty of some of the BS that's going on in today's Hunting World!

Would You Agree to that?

Or Do You Think The SmokePolers are the only Problem?

Have you ever considered that some people use all weapon types? You seem to think everybody is stuck in a box so it only harms one "set" of people.

It's possible if they restricted muzzleloaders more, fewer other hunters would apply for those tags and would stick with bows and rifles and the dedicated muzzy hunters would get better odds.

Regardless of the weapon restrictions, they'll apply to everybody with that weapon individually so there's no need to insist on an arbitrary rule of equivalency.

 

[buckhorn]

Have you ever considered that some people use all weapon types? You seem to think everybody is stuck in a box so it only harms one "set" of people.

It's possible if they restricted muzzleloaders more, fewer other hunters would apply for those tags and would stick with bows and rifles and the dedicated muzzy hunters would get better odds.

Regardless of the weapon restrictions, they'll apply to everybody with that weapon individually so there's no need to insist on an arbitrary rule of equivalency.

Good point grizzly. My thoughts also. I just didn’t feel like typing all that. Thanks

 

[elkassassin]

Must Be Possible That You Don't know We Hunt with All 3 Weapon Types!

Just More People Too Blind & Blaming One Weapon Type/One Reason Why!

WAKE THE HELL UP!

There's More Problems than Magnified Scopes on SmokePoles!

If You can't see that You're Perty Damn Blind!

The Thing that Amazes Me is You're Just Like Our Government that wants to go after Guns!

You Pick out what's gonna be easiest for You to get first!

None of You Even Mention the capabilities between a HAWKENS & a New Inline without even Bringing Scopes in to the Picture!

THE ATTITUDE OF MOST OF YOU:

You Pick One item & One item only & In Your Mind You Think You're Fixing the Herd!

That Ain't Gonna do it!

Until there is Major Changes You might as Well Keep Pissin in the Wind!

Have you ever considered that some people use all weapon types? You seem to think everybody is stuck in a box so it only harms one "set" of people.

It's possible if they restricted muzzleloaders more, fewer other hunters would apply for those tags and would stick with bows and rifles and the dedicated muzzy hunters would get better odds.

Regardless of the weapon restrictions, they'll apply to everybody with that weapon individually so there's no need to insist on an arbitrary rule of equivalency.

 

[Hawkeye]

So once again old Elkster is stuck in his all or nothing mind set. It has to be “Hell-Right” or we might as well do nothing at all! He can’t identify the 3 top changes that will help our deer herds but he will list 50 problems! He would support shutting down all hunting seasons for several years but you better not touch his precious 4x20 Nightforce scope on his long-range muzzy!

Wake up buddy! if we are ever going to make any progress and help our herds it will start with small steps and as sportsmen we will all have to make some sacrifices.

Hawkeye

 

[elkassassin]

JUDAS!

F'N!

PRIEST!

I'm Not Saying Don't Do Anything!

I'm Saying if You're gonna do something,Do Something that's gonna make a F'N Improvement for GAWDS-SAKES!

Go Ahead & Take MUZZ Scopes!

But You're Gonna Take Something from the other two Weapon Types!

I Do Not Own what's considered a LONG RANGE SmokePole & Sure The HELL Don't have a F'N NightForce Scope on any of My SmokePoles!

Small Steps Ain't Fixing F'N SQUAT!

You Probably Pack a 1200 Yard Long Range Rifle with a 20-60X85 NightForce on it?

Or is it the 120 Yard StickFlipper?

You Never F'N Ever Mention anything about these Two Weapons?

WTF?

CLUE: It Just Ain't the Scopes on SmokePoles F'N the Deer Herd Up!

You Get That?

GEEZUS!

So once again old Elkster is stuck in his all or nothing mind set. It has to be “Hell-Right” or we might as well do nothing at all! He can’t identify the 3 top changes that will help our deer herds but he will list 50 problems! He would support shutting down all hunting seasons for several years but you better not touch his precious 4x20 Nightforce scope on his long-range muzzy!

Wake up buddy! if we are ever going to make any progress and help our herds it will start with small steps and as sportsmen we will all have to make some sacrifices.

Hawkeye

 

[Dangbig]

Loss of habitat and cougars/coyotes/cars and bad winters cause more loss than scopes on muzzles. Folks build on the benches the ***** deer eat their flowers so the city comes and shoots the deer.does fawns and bucks. Way more crap than cameras and scopes

 

[elkassassin]

These F'ERS are Just Trying To Raise My Already High Blood Pressure!

 

[elkassassin]

 

[buckhorn]

These F'ERS are Just Trying To Raise My Already High Blood Pressure!

Maybe you should take another break for a while. You’re starting to sound kind of crazy and not making much sense!

 

[elkassassin]

Another Break?

So You Too Think Scopes on SmokePoles are the Only F'N Problem with the Deer Herd?

 

[Bluehair]

I keep checking back to find out where to get the magic salt. Looks like you moved on to muzzies though.

so, Is it really a primitive weapon if your grandpa’s 30-30 is more crude?

 

[grizzly]

So You Too Think Scopes on SmokePoles are the Only F'N Problem with the Deer Herd?

I'm pretty sure that's not what anybody has said.

 

[buckhorn]

Another Break?

So You Too Think Scopes on SmokePoles are the Only F'N Problem with the Deer Herd?

Scopes on muzzleloaders are only a small part of the herd problem. They probably do contribute a lot to the lack of mature bucks you’re seeing though.
And I agree long range bows and rifles are also taking out older bucks at a higher right now.
In my opinion the top biggest problems are:

The expanding human population and everything that comes with it.

Predators and wild horses.

ongoing drought conditions.

Technology.

which ones can we start with to begin fixing the problems?

 

[elkassassin]

It's What You & a Few others Are HARPING on!

Am I Right or F'N Wrong?

I'm pretty sure that's not what anybody has said.

 

[middlefork]

Scopes on muzzleloaders are only a small part of the herd problem. They probably do contribute a lot to the lack of mature bucks you’re seeing though.
And I agree long range bows and rifles are also taking out older bucks at a higher right now.
In my opinion the top biggest problems are:

The expanding human population and everything that comes with it.

Predators and wild horses.

ongoing drought conditions.

Technology.

which ones can we start with to begin fixing the problems?

I suggest that people actually watch the people who are making the decisions. Apparently if people think they are wrong it is their minds you need to change. Changing minds on this website is pretty much impossible.

Watch the Wildlife Board work session about mule deer | Utah

Many of our biologists will be meeting with the Wildlife Board this morning at 9 a.m. for a virtual work session about Utah's mule deer herds. Here are links to the agenda and the livestream. (The video will also be available later for those who don't have time to watch it today, or who want to...

www.monstermuleys.info

 

[buckhorn]

It's What You & a Few others Are HARPING on!

Am I Right or F'N Wrong?

With all due respect you are F’n wrong. In fact you’re the only one doing all the harping.
Most folks are making suggestions on what they think will help. Beginning with the top three or four.
Your hell right list is something anyone of us could have put together. We’ve got to have a civil conversation on the subjects.
Not just F’n this and F’n that.
I don’t even live in Utah.
All states have their problems.

 

[grizzly]

It's What You & a Few others Are HARPING on!

Am I Right or F'N Wrong?

Okay, you're wrong. Nobody said it's the only problem, but you keep saying that's what they're writing. It's not. Nobody has said that.

"So You Too Think Scopes on SmokePoles are the Only F'N Problem with the Deer Herd?" - elkassassin


What everybody is saying is that there are many problems and we need to start making progress. Incrementally. Anything is better than nothing.

You've made it clear that you think if it's not a wholesale barn burning than it's not worth doing anything at all.

Which, of course, means nothing changes and we keep on the current declining trajectory.

 

[elkassassin]

No!

You are F'N Wrong!

Make Changes!

But Make them on all 3 Weapon Types!

But None of you want that!

Pull Your Head out of the Sand!

Okay, you're wrong. Nobody said it's the only problem, but you keep saying that's what they're writing. It's not. Nobody has said that.

"So You Too Think Scopes on SmokePoles are the Only F'N Problem with the Deer Herd?" - elkassassin


What everybody is saying is that there are many problems and we need to start making progress. Incrementally. Anything is better than nothing.

You've made it clear that you think if it's not a wholesale barn burning than it's not worth doing anything at all.

Which, of course, means nothing changes and we keep on the current declining trajectory.

 

[elkassassin]

Funny How Most of You Single out one item that you Think is the Only Problem!

JFP!

 

[Dangbig]

Weapons really aren’t going to matter, same guys would kill with a 30-30 or a recurve cap and ball whatever they are hunters.
Habitat, predators and over use of range. Is the top 3 things that will help the deer rebound.
We all love hunting elk but in some areas they are out competing the deer.
How much sage habitat has been lost in the state in the last 20 years

 

[elkassassin]

You Hear That buckhorn & grizzly?

 

[buckhorn]

Funny How Most of You Single out one item that you Think is the Only Problem!

JFP!

Not True!
It’s hard to take you seriously.
Especially after your post above.

 

[elkassassin]

OK buckhorn & grizzly?

I'll Take My Mid Grade Scope off My SmokePole!

But there's Change for All 3!

Slider Sights on Bows Are Now Out-Lawed!

And Turrets of any Kind are Out-Lawed on Rifles!

LET'S HEAR THE BAWLING!

 

[buckhorn]

OK buckhorn & grizzly?

I'll Take My Mid Grade Scope off My SmokePole!

But there's Change for All 3!

Slider Sights on Bows Are Now Out-Lawed!

And Turrets of any Kind are Out-Lawed on Rifles!

LET'S HEAR THE BAWLING!

OK I’ll go for that.
I have applied for a limited entry rifle hunt this year.
If slider sights on bows are banned and scopes on muzzleloaders are banned I will gladly take my turret scope off my rifle.
What magnification scope if any would you allow on the rifle hunt and how would you enforce it?

 

[elkassassin]

There's Only one Thing that'll Enforce any Law & it's Included in HELL-RIGHT!

Fines So severe nobody would Chance it!

Fat Chance of that ever happening!

Let's See?

If SmokePole Scopes are Totally Banned!

I Think Scopes with a Maximum of 1X on Rifles ought to be more than sufficient!

Let the BAWLING Begin!

OK I’ll go for that.
I have applied for a limited entry rifle hunt this year.
If slider sights on bows are banned and scopes on muzzleloaders are banned I will gladly take my turret scope off my rifle.
What magnification scope if any would you allow on the rifle hunt and how would you enforce it?

 

[buckhorn]

It’s common knowledge that on the premium limited entry hunts that the archers and muzzleloaders are killing the bigger bucks before the rifle hunters have a chance at them. Even with turret scopes the rifle hunters don’t do as well on the bigger bucks.

 

[elkassassin]

Funny when I Was Younger how I Ever Shot anything with My HAWKENS!

It was considered an Up-Grade from the Flintlock!

 

[elkassassin]

Have You Ever Considered Putting in for a LE Muzz or Archery Permit?

HELL SAKES!

You Could Use that Scope on your SmokePole as an Advantage!

It’s common knowledge that on the premium limited entry hunts that the archers and muzzleloaders are killing the bigger bucks before the rifle hunters have a chance at them. Even with turret scopes the rifle hunters don’t do as well on the bigger bucks.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

It’s common knowledge that on the premium limited entry hunts that the archers and muzzleloaders are killing the bigger bucks before the rifle hunters have a chance at them. Even with turret scopes the rifle hunters don’t do as well on the bigger bucks.

Archery Henry Mtns 10 tags 70% Success
Archery Paunsaugunt 38 Tags 82% success
Muzzleloader Henry Mtns 13 tags 100% success
Muzzleloader Paunsaugunt 32 tags 80% success
Any weapon Henry Mtns 27 Tags 96% success
Any weapon paunsagunt 85 tags 87% success

48 tags for Archery
46 Muzzleloader
112 tags for Any Weapon

So I look at this and I see there are more tags given to the rifle hunters and their are more tags given to rifle hunters than both archery and muzzy combined.

Yeah they might Harvest a few bigger bucks with archery and I will bet they Harvest a few more during the muzzy especially with a 3x9 scope on them but the rifle hunters get there share of big bucks
I have seen quit a few pics of sheds found on both units in their winter range that have made it threw all these hunts over the last 5 years
so I'm really having a hard time with their not being any big bucks left during the Any weapon hunt.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

As far as this post goes for Baiting it's banned plain and simple it doesn't phase my world at all I don't need an edge.

Just remember ranchers always place their mineral blocks in the same spot every year.
I'll bet the ranchers will have to mark or register the location where their salt is placed.
The sad thing is the ones that are complaining about it are the ones that will try and find a loop hole to get away with it and you will get caught doing so.

 

[buckhorn]

Have You Ever Considered Putting in for a LE Muzz or Archery Permit?

HELL SAKES!

You Could Use that Scope on your SmokePole as an Advantage!

Have You Ever Considered Putting in for a LE Muzz or Archery Permit?

HELL SAKES!

You Could Use that Scope on your SmokePole as an Advantage!

Yes I have been putting in for archery and Muzzy for the past 24 years in Utah. I’m a couple points under max so I haven’t drawn the unit I want. This year I switched units. It’s s the first time I’ve applied for a rifle hunt. The reason I switched to rifle is because the unit I switched to only has one non-resident bonus tag and it’s during rifle season.
We’re starting to get off topic so I’m done commenting about weapons and restrictions in this baiting topic.

 

[cannonball]

As far as this post goes for Baiting it's banned plain and simple it doesn't phase my world at all I don't need an edge.

Just remember ranchers always place their mineral blocks in the same spot every year.
I'll bet the ranchers will have to mark or register the location where their salt is placed.
The sad thing is the ones that are complaining about it are the ones that will try and find a loop hole to get away with it and you will get caught doing so.

I don't think so. I think most hunters realize baiting was a big factor in killing big buck. They want to give the buck a chance of more of a fair chase. I would also like to see some units like the Paunsaugunt where the deer's water supply is limited, eliminate cameras. Actual there are a lot of places you go where a dozen cameras will be looking back at you. To me that is an evasion of privacy. that would be one more step to help some big bucks get through the season. One day maybe the WLB will be brave enough to buck the few and take action.

 

[Dryfly]

So you like to see animals suffer? What about bycatch?

Trapping is so 1830.

You are very uninformed about trapping. I trap and have for decades. I trap mostly cats anymore. I release unharmed all females and kittens, have for a long while. I want only adult male cats.

Have caught my dog and several others. Zero damage to them, or even to the smaller kittens. My traps are correctly sized as well as double laminated, and have the required offset as well as rounded and smoothed edges. I check them each and everyday they are out right at daylight.

Look up online about river otters. They were near extinction and are now doing very well. Thanks to one thing...The use of foothold traps by fish and game departments to capture and redistribute them.

Foothold traps can be very humanely used...or not, it is up to the trapper. Not near as bad as guys who can neither shoot nor tune a bow, flinging arrows wildly at big game animals, I see that yearly while bow hunting.

I have released many, many, dozens of kittens...all were unharmed 100%.

 

[Dryfly]

All right Elkass, you want to take from all 3 weapon types, how about limiting technology as follows:

-Muzzleloader: Allow only open sights or 1x scopes. You could also ban sabots and BH 209 powder.
-Archery: Ban slider sights so we go back to fixed pin sights.
-Rifle: Implement some changes that target long-range shooting. I need some help figuring what change or technology ban would be most appropriate. Longe-range shooters please chime in.

The idea is to limitssome of the technology that makes us more effective at killing animals. By doing this, we lower success rates, increase animal survival rates, and hopefully can increase opportunity even though our herds continue to struggle.

If anyone can figure out how to consistently grow our deer herds you get the top prize. Every state in the west gets a failing grade in that category and that is the real problem that nobody has been able to solve over the last 4 decades.

Hawkeye

I agree with most of this. But I do take exception with the one pin slider sights. My eyes are getting old, the 5 pin sights I used to love are unusable to me now, the pins all blur together into one vertical line to my eyes.

No one pin slider sight...and my 50 years of bow-hunting are over.

I don't believe this gives me any advantage at all over 5 pin sights, other than keeping my shooting accurate because I can see it. We should all be in favor of accuracy while hunting with a bow.

They don't make you any more accurate at any longer range, not nearly as much as having a perfectly tuned bow as well as arrows, and a ton of practice will do. Those will get you further than whatever sight is on your bow will.

 

[elkassassin]

OK buckhorn!

I'm Sure You've got your Own Gear!

But If You wanna Borrow My SmokePole I'd Loan it to You!

Mine ain't all that Neat!

I Consider My Best SmokePole as Medium Range Compared to what alot of others Are Packing!

I Have Guns that Go Down from there on down to My Original HAWKENS!

The Weapon Level would be totally Up to You!

Yes I have been putting in for archery and Muzzy for the past 24 years in Utah. I’m a couple points under max so I haven’t drawn the unit I want. This year I switched units. It’s s the first time I’ve applied for a rifle hunt. The reason I switched to rifle is because the unit I switched to only has one non-resident bonus tag and it’s during rifle season.
We’re starting to get off topic so I’m done commenting about weapons and restrictions in this baiting topic.

 

[buckhorn]

OK buckhorn!

I'm Sure You've got your Own Gear!

But If You wanna Borrow My SmokePole I'd Loan it to You!

Mine ain't all that Neat!

I Consider My Best SmokePole as Medium Range Compared to what alot of others Are Packing!

I Have Guns that Go Down from there on down to My Original HAWKENS!

The Weapon Level would be totally Up to You!

Thanks elk I sent you a PM

 

[Deerlove]

I agree with most of this. But I do take exception with the one pin slider sights. My eyes are getting old, the 5 pin sights I used to love are unusable to me now, the pins all blur together into one vertical line to my eyes.

No one pin slider sight...and my 50 years of bow-hunting are over.

I don't believe this gives me any advantage at all over 5 pin sights, other than keeping my shooting accurate because I can see it. We should all be in favor of accuracy while hunting with a bow.

They don't make you any more accurate at any longer range, not nearly as much as having a perfectly tuned bow as well as arrows, and a ton of practice will do. Those will get you further than whatever sight is on your bow will.

That's how they got rid of one power scopes on the muzzy.

 

[Dryfly]

That's how they got rid of one power scopes on the muzzy.

But a multi power scope can and will make you more accurate at further ranges...by a lot. Everybody.

No sight will make you shoot a bow any further and straighter than you already can otherwise. Only great form, skill, much practice, and perfect tuning can do that. The sight just makes the most of those skills, you still have to earn them the old fashioned way.

Not so much with a modern muzzle-loader. The bigger scope alone will do it.

 

[Carp]

But a multi power scope can and will make you more accurate at further ranges...by a lot. Everybody.

No sight will make you shoot a bow any further and straighter than you already can otherwise. Only great form, skill, much practice, and perfect tuning can do that. The sight just makes the most of those skills, you still have to earn them the old fashioned way.

Not so much with a modern muzzle-loader. The bigger scope alone will do it.

As someone who’s very familiar with archery equipment, the advancement in the technology over the last few years and also very familiar with muzzleloaders, im calling BS. An adjustable sight can, does and will make you shoot further far more accurately, combined with a bow that shoots faster, which makes its mor forgiving, and is tuned correctly with the right arrows. It also helps if the guy pulling back the string has somewhat of a decent idea on how to shoot a bow. Back in the day before the bow technology really took off and anyone could pick up a bow and shoot it 100 yards easy, you really had to
Have skill to do it. Now the bow can offset the lack of skill and compensate for any abilities lacking by the archer, to some degree. To sit there and say a slider sight doesn’t help you shoot further distances is a down right lie. If it wasn’t, stick a single fixed pin on your bow and zero it at 30 yards. Hold dead center on any animal you shoot at and you’ll hit vitals 0-45 yards, with as flat as bows these days shoot.

the muzzleloader scope deal is a completely separate issue. I’d wager it’s easier to pick up a bow and shoot one accurately at distance than it is to do so with a muzzy. They are slow shooting, unforgiving, finicky guns that require a lot of practice to learn how to shoot effectively at longer ranges. Not everyone can just pick one up and bang 6” steel plates every shot at 300 yards their first time out. Takes a ton of range time to do that consistently. Combined with the fact it’s a loud dang single shot, lots of time for a missed animal to leave before he’s in the crosshairs again.

Look at past success rates. Muzzys haven’t jumped up hardly at all since the scope laws changed. Archery has gotten significantly more successful than what it once was, compared to the muzzy success rates over time.

 

[elkassassin]

I Hear You Carp!

Wish everybody-else could!

Most Guys Will Blame 1-2 Items Max!

Most wanna Try Banning one item & one item Only to try it for 5 years to see if the Single Change/Ban will Help!

HINT:

It'll Take Way More Change than that to Help the Suffering Deer Herd!

You Don't have to be a Biologist to Figure this BS Out!

Sure the Drought is affecting Our Herds!

But that alone is not the only Reason Why Either!

Enforce HELL-RIGHT or Just say F'It altogether!

We Are All Guilty of some of the BS that goes on in today's Hunting World!

It Would Take More Change than Most Will Accept!

 

[cannonball]

Thats the biggest crap I've ever hear carp. With one of these newest ML out I can shoot ever bit as good as with my Browning, and the only difference is I only get one shot. Bows have gotten exceeding more sophisticated. Bow hunters get first dibs on the deer and have become better at hunting using bait, learning more about using a blind, etc,, etc. When I was hunting with a bow, boy were we dumb. I have seen the bow hunting evolution and numbers go clear through the roof. They have even expanded the time they are on the mountain to the point of ridiculousness. If we were to go back to the days of the sidehammer, real black powder, no-scope days the success would be in the cellar. That I am sure of!! After the archers get through with them those deer are so skittish and with numbers down we are so lucky to see what we see. The poor rifle hunters have to pick up the slop.

 

[Carp]

Thats the biggest crap I've ever hear carp. With one of these newest ML out I can shoot ever bit as good as with my Browning, and the only difference is I only get one shot. Bows have gotten exceeding more sophisticated. Bow hunters get first dibs on the deer and have become better at hunting using bait, learning more about using a blind, etc,, etc. When I was hunting with a bow, boy were we dumb. I have seen the bow hunting evolution and numbers go clear through the roof. They have even expanded the time they are on the mountain to the point of ridiculousness. If we were to go back to the days of the sidehammer, real black powder, no-scope days the success would be in the cellar. That I am sure of!! After the archers get through with them those deer are so skittish and with numbers down we are so lucky to see what we see. The poor rifle hunters have to pick up the slop.

YOU might be able to pick up a new muzzy and shoot one accurately, but you are in the minority. Not many guys can shoot them as far and as accurate as a center fire. Same holds true with archery. 100 yards today is like shooting a muzzleloader 300 yards today (yes, guys could and would shoot 300 with open sights or a 1x, and be very deadly back in the day). 10 years ago only a select few could do it. Now anyone can do it if they know how to shoot decent. But past 100 or past 300 is a whole different story and requires much more than just a capable weapon. Take scopes off all the guns you want, the same guys killing big deer every year, will still kill big deer with whatever weapon is available. Guys who want to limit technology seem to be the ones who struggle with killing any size of deer. You can limit the weapon, you can’t limit the killer.

Sounds like you’re just mad about everyone’s method of hunting except for yours. You aren’t the problem. Just everyone else.

the poor rifle hunters hahahaha you mean the guys that have the highest success rates? Yeah I sure feel bad for the 2 point slayers. It’s not for a lack of deer, it’s a lack of patience and hunting abilities. (Most of the time).

 

[cannonball]

I am afraid you're wrong about everything said. I did succumb to the inline and a high power scope, but do I like it - No. Have I shot deer with it - Yes. At the range, with a dead rest, I shot my muzzleloader with the same accuracy as my Browning auto at 300 yards. Second, not an archer anymore, I enjoy being in the mountains during the archery hunt, and have talked to many archers. Two things I have found out from them is that they can kill a deer way farther than the old bows and they still wound a lot of deer. The changes I would like to see on the deer hunt method is not for me, but for my Grandkids and other hunters. If it is going to be a muzzleloader let it be a primitive hunt like it was originally intended. The last part of your first paragraph is further from the truth. Most of the hunters that want changes, including limited technology for primitive hunts want to save a more bucks, even if some of them are for the rifle hunters.

 

[Gator]

SO is just scopes on a Muzzy or Scope any thing that can shoot farther then it did back in the 50's or when Muzzy had a 1X scope.
So all rifles should be 30-30 iron sights or 4x
All Bows a wooden recurve with wooden arrows

I don't think that will help the herd numbers what will help is FEED and places they can go that are safer then being killed by everything around them.

Fawns are what grows deer and calves grow elk herds cut out what are killing them and you will get a increase in deer and elk.
Simple math.

 

[elkassassin]

And I F'N Quote:

THE POOR RIFLE HUNTERS!

Yup!

That Must be it!

The Poor Rifle Hunters that are Shooting 1,000+ F'N Yards just don't have a chance now do they?

Shooting So Far away the Animals Don't Have a Clue!

Using the Truck Hood for a Rest!

And Then BRAGGING on all the Effort they Put in to their Hunt!

JUDAS!

 

[elkassassin]

Once Again!

Most Hunters Blaming another Weapon they Don't Use!

CLUE:

It'll take more than removing Scopes off of SmokePoles!