Nonresident random draw for elk, deer & antelope

[jm77]

Seriously speaking, how many nonresidents out there, who hunt Wyoming as often as they can, would prefer to see elk, deer & antelope drawings go 100% random or leave it as is. Think about it a minute and please be honest. Back up your answers too.

 

[Hunt_the_West]

The selfish side of me says yes since I do not have max points but the reality is I’m going to say no. For most (not all) there is at least a random tag that gives at best a slim chance to pull a great tag every year. I would however like to see that if you draw a tag as 1st or second choice you do not retain your points. If a change was necessary I would support a bonus system closer to Nevada or AZ. If this question was posed 14 years ago or even 10 years ago I’d be saying heck no keep it random.

 

[maddog58]

I would rather see a total random draw. Currently on 5 points for antelope and 3 on deer. Cashed in max points when it was 9 I believe for antelope. I think NV has a better point system. I would be willing to eat my points in Wy if it returned to random

 

[fullthrottle]

Hell no! Wyoming’s system is the best of both worlds. Give the points fans a piece of what they want, and the random guys a piece of what they want. Leave it alone, I have drawn tags both ways.

 

[maddog58]

And get rid of the damn special tags too

 

[WapitiBob]

nope, with one exception
Nothing wrong with points if you:
A) understand nobody guaranteed you or your kid a tag
B) realize there are and will always be, hunts you will never have a statistical chance to draw
C) after coming to grips with A and B; apply for the hunts you can draw, or wait till you have a reasonable chance to draw, and make the most of it

the exception:
random draw, no points, and all species are OIL. Draw and you're done. No more joe drawing 3 tags while johnny hasn't drawn any.

 

[Bob D.]

I would like for it to be 100% random, and the non-resident prices could be adjusted to make up for the loss of revenue of people buying points. I just don't know what they would do with those who have accumulated a number of points. I suppose they could just stop selling points and continue on with the drawings just as they are done now, until most of the people have used up their points.

 

[HalfAce]

I suspect the guys who want to hunt units like G would rather have it be random and not have to wait 6,7,8 years for a tag (and only growing longer). The guys who hunt units that can be drawn with 0 or 1 points would rather it stay the way it is. It definitely helps with planning fall hunts, especially when WY DEA results come out so late.

I like it the way it is now. You can get a tag every year if you lower your standards. Or you can wait for the glory units. And still have a chance to get lucky and snag a tag with the random draw. I love the special tag aspect as well. Probably the most complex draw structure of any state, but if you understand it, you can do well.

No change.

 

[BuzzH]

If I were a NR I would be all about a 50/50 split between preference point and random.

No point averaging.

 

[Seamaster]

I am a NR and would support a totally random draw while scrapping the points system. There would be fewer abuses of the system by unregistered "guides" that are compensated with other hunters' points by using point averaging.

I would make planning hunts a bit more difficult but I believe the system would be easier to understand and the draw would be fair.

 

[nripepi]

I am a NR and would support a totally random draw while scrapping the points system. There would be fewer abuses of the system by unregistered "guides" that are compensated with other hunters' points by using point averaging.

I would make planning hunts a bit more difficult but I believe the system would be easier to understand and the draw would be fair.

You could just remove point averaging, go 50/50, get rid of the special tags to make it easier to understand...there is pretty much no way they are going to scrap the system. People have 13 years of points invested.

 

[BigChiefJ]

I'm curious about how many people use point averaging every year. Anybody that draws a first choice license is now behind me in points-advantage me.

As for a random draw, my selfish answer is to go all random for everything after I've used my points.

 

[rmanwill]

No. Pretty hard to draw in Idaho with it all random and cannot plan a hunt in advance on random.

 

[Deepcolor]

Keep the point system! Let’s a guy plan ahead a couple years and make plans.

 

[DanMan]

I would be for going random draw in all species if all existing PPs would be converted to bonus points until they were drawn out of the system. That would reward those already invested.

 

[BigChiefJ]

I would be for going random draw in all species if all existing PPs would be converted to bonus points until they were drawn out of the system. That would reward those already invested.
[/QUOTE

I could possibly be tempted by this. Freeze all points, convert to a bonus point system with squaring, and go 100% random draw.

Regular and special fees don't bother me. That kind of gives NR 2 draw options.

 

[elks96]

I was a NR and I much preferred the 100% random before points. I will take my chances with random any day and much prefer the system.

The best system is the random system with out a doubt on all tags.

 

[WapitiBob]

The best system is the random system with out a doubt on all tags.

Well, you apply in random only states and I’ll apply in point states and we’ll see who draws first.

 

[BuzzH]

Well, you apply in random only states and I’ll apply in point states and we’ll see who draws first.

Really depends what hunt a person applies for in each.

 

[llamapacker]

I support all random draw. And I have large number of points for several species in WY. Points are a curse on hunting, and do not provide the benefits promised.
Bill

 

[BigChiefJ]

The problem is "fixing" the point system in fair way for folks that have played along for a long time.

Based off my points, random draw benefits me for elk and moose. Points benefit me for deer and pronghorn

 

[bingo]

All random would be bad imo. It’s nice being able to somewhat predict when you’re going to draw. Last year i burned my 12 points on Wyo elk and pretty much knew i would draw. I plan to burn my 13 pronghorn points this year and can plan on drawing. I apply for and have hunted in Nevada for deer elk and antelope but I still prefer Wyo’s system over Nevada. I like the variation of each state because it allows you to strategize differently

 

[Sierra]

All point systems suck and i have max points for WY Deer and 10 for WY Elk.

 

[nripepi]

All point systems suck and i have max points for WY Deer and 10 for WY Elk.

If you chase the top tags, point systems stink...if you let everyone else chase the high point tags and you hunt the 1-3 points needed tags...it is a great system! I think Utah or Nevada and then Wyoming have the most fair point systems.

 

[Cheater]

I wouldn't be opposed to 100% random as long as once it was approved it didn't go into effect for ~5yrs. Would give people ample time to use or lose their points.

 

[excaliber]

How about I get to draw a tag for whatever species I want every year in Wyoming as a NR? Who's for that?

 

[BuzzH]

How about I get to draw a tag for whatever species I want every year in Wyoming as a NR? Who's for that?

You already can...just have to shake the dust out of your wallet.

 

[excaliber]

That would take some serious prying with the crowbar.

 

[El Gringo]

Absolutely not. I like the predictability of Wyoming and Colorado. I would hate if every state was random, because you could never plan anything, before late spring or summer of that year.

 

[OldBallCoach]

Absolutely not. Too many folks have been buying points for years and it wouldn’t be right to change it now.
Sorry for the guys who just can’t seem to figure out the point systems and seem to think random is the only “fair” system. I’ve seen just how fair random is in Idaho for the last 21 years and I’ll take Wyoming’s system all day long. There are plenty of options in Wyoming for guys who want to hunt every year or take their kids hunting.

 

[Phantom Hunter]

No to all random unless more tags moved to NR draw. I used to draw a random elk tag in NM every two-three years. Since NM dropped the number of tags in my pool to six percent I have not drawn a tag.

 

[BigChiefJ]

No to all random unless more tags moved to NR draw. I used to draw a random elk tag in NM every two-three years. Since NM dropped the number of tags in my pool to six percent I have not drawn a tag.

NM is a hard draw too because they don't have the elk numbers like Wyoming. I also think they cheated NR with the 6% quota.

 

[elkantlers]

As a non resident of Wyoming I really like preference points because I like to be able to choose when I draw a permit. I also like the way they average points. For those people that put the time in to study how the points system works and how a fraction of a point can make a huge difference it can really be a benefit to those people and their families. Can point averaging be abused by a few people? Sure it can, but I think the benefits out weigh the bad.

 

[ss13]

I’d prefer random draw. Point creep is evident in every non resident draw in Wyoming already. It’ll only get worse as the years go by, especially if Wyoming goes to 90/10. Creep will almost double in one year for a ton of areas. In 20 years it’ll be out of control in all areas and states.

I wouldn’t want to see the Idaho model, but maybe a two choose system similar to New Mexico’s 3 choose would be nice. With only two choices you’d have to make a choice to apply for high deman areas or settle for average or below average subscribed units/regions as the 2nd choose. I think Wy gives out enough tags to keep the odds decent, unlike New Mexico. Should be much better odds.

 

[SS!]

Random not only for Wyoming but all states. Why? Because that’s the most fair in my opinion.

 

[highfastflyer]

Seriously speaking, how many nonresidents out there, who hunt Wyoming as often as they can, would prefer to see elk, deer & antelope drawings go 100% random or leave it as is. Think about it a minute and please be honest. Back up your answers too.

Wish you had started a thread for residents. I’d vote for a 50/50 random/points split.

 

[Hiker]

I like the 75% points/25% random. I would like to see them do away with the special tags and put them all in the regular pool.

 

[Brownbear932008]

I'd like to see a 50/50 split if not stop the whole point system totally. I've never been a fan of point systems especially preference point systems. If your not in the moment it starts your left behind for the most part.
I Think point systems are terrible for hunter recruitment.Also I can't understand how people say you can't plan a hunt when you get draw results in spring or early summer heck how hard is it to get your junk together and go hunt.

 

[elks96]

I love how guys cite the "predictability" of the points systems. The only thing you can predict is eventually the point creep will eventually take you and everyone you hunt with out of the running for a tag. Even in low end units the point creep will eventually mean you can draw. Take time, but it happens in every system. That is what you can predict.

 

[HuntnProf]

I'd like to see a 50/50 split if not stop the whole point system totally. I've never been a fan of point systems especially preference point systems. If your not in the moment it starts your left behind for the most part.
I Think point systems are terrible for hunter recruitment.Also I can't understand how people say you can't plan a hunt when you get draw results in spring or early summer heck how hard is it to get your junk together and go hunt.

I plan our hunts (wife, daughter's, myself) much more in advance-- so I can be sure work/school schedule will accommodate--not all of our fall's are the same in regards to availability. I have a running 5-year plan/excel spreadsheet for all of us in WY, CO, AZ, and our home state (though random stuff in like NM, or pie in the sky AZ hunts in there just in case). I like to know wife and I can plan to hunt WY antelope this year, mule deer in 2021, CO mule deer in 2021 and wife's CO hunt in 2022, ect (of course point creep keeps this from being certain in some units).

I like the WY random chances, I wish CO would have a small percentage of random as well.

I don't support complete random, I think there should be a split, maybe more % random than current would be a middle ground. I would also support keeping special draw.

 

[jm77]

I was a NR and I much preferred the 100% random before points. I will take my chances with random any day and much prefer the system.

The best system is the random system with out a doubt on all tags.

Just saying, you are a Wyoming resident and this thread is to get opinions from NR about the random/PP draw. Not that you can't comment, but we all get you don't like PP.

 

[WapitiBob]

It really isn't that hard to predict when you'll draw with points. I was almost 10 years behind in both UT and AZ, and drew higher end Elk units. I was 1 less than max in WY and drew a top end Elk tag. All 3 came from the PP or bonus passes and I knew I'd draw. I can draw lower end UT, mid tier AZ, and WY GEN Elk tags right now. I can't remember how many times I've used my points here in OR but I'll draw a top end tag again this year with single digit points. It comes down to knowing what you can, can't, and never will draw.

 

[BigChiefJ]

It really isn't that hard to predict when you'll draw with points. I was almost 10 years behind in both UT and AZ, and drew higher end Elk units. I was 1 less than max in WY and drew a top end Elk tag. All 3 came from the PP or bonus passes and I knew I'd draw. I can draw lower end UT, mid tier AZ, and WY GEN Elk tags right now. I can't remember how many times I've used my points here in OR but I'll draw a top end tag again this year with single digit points. It comes down to knowing what you can, can't, and never will draw.

Research is the key. I probably spend way too much studying draw odds. The main reason I have so many points is because I know what I'm going to draw so I buy points for the rest.

It's the NM early random draw and the, now gone, early WY elk results that have been good to me.

 

[Rodzilla_v]

going back to the original post/question. As an elk hunter I say keep the same (me having 12 points), as an antelope hunter with 2 points, I say heck yeah, lets go random. I think the answer depends on where one is at in the points game. I definitely need to burn my elk points.

 

[tracker12]

I have max deer points. You know where my opinion lies.

 

[nfh]

Question. If you elminated the points system how would action be taken? Refunds? Not a fan of points but i for one would be frustrated of my 19 resident moose/sheep points were taken away. As of now i can plan a sheep hunt in the upcoming season or possibly another year or 2. I can plan my moose hunt in 6-8 years.

Dont get me wrong i can jump in and complain how things are ran. Like mnt. Goat being random. I drew a tag when i was 24 . Awesome right. But the guy who applies for 30 years and never draw sucks. But when things go my way im happy cause things went my way. Just human nature i guess.

I dont have a clue how things should be. I just play the game. But i will say it would be nice to as a resident to have a better chance at some LQ tags. It is my fault that i apply for the hardest elk tag and have drawn once in i think 14 years. But i solve the problem by getting a general tag. But in the end thats the choice i make and i have to understand only 10 tags issued that i making a huge huge gamble.

I feel like some minor changes need done. But i dont like drastic changes .


I know i kinda just went random on the post but i havent kept up with every post. Maybe this should of been in the 90/10 post or something else but all these threads are kinda just blended together and trying to attempt to keep up on all the threads

 

[Thomas11]

It really isn't that hard to predict when you'll draw with points. I was almost 10 years behind in both UT and AZ, and drew higher end Elk units. I was 1 less than max in WY and drew a top end Elk tag. All 3 came from the PP or bonus passes and I knew I'd draw. I can draw lower end UT, mid tier AZ, and WY GEN Elk tags right now. I can't remember how many times I've used my points here in OR but I'll draw a top end tag again this year with single digit points. It comes down to knowing what you can, can't, and never will draw.

I don’t disagree. I’ve had similar draw results w the exception of WY. The unit I apply keeps jumping a pt basically every yr. a little bad luck but I’ve been lucky in other places so. To me, the best drawing odds in a totally random state like NM for elk is like 15% abd that’s the best odds for the bottom of the barrel. 90% of the hunts there have 2-10% draw odds and there is nothing u can do to increase that yr after yr. I like AZ system the best. I do hate the squaring system for sure

 

[Thomas11]

It seems WY to me has experienced a ton of pt creep though but my opinion on that is they don’t utilize breaking up tags enough w diff season structures like a week here or a week there. Not enough tags to get thru the peeps. While AZ issues enough late season tags to keep point creep in check. I feel if WY wouldn’t shorten the life of each tag to say a week or whatever and issue more tags maybe it would help w creep while still keeping harvest in line w objectives. It’s not really realistic for most NR to come archery and then return for a month long gun season. So breakup the timeframe w more tags

 

[Deerlove]

Thomas you must be new here.

 

[Thomas11]

Thomas you must be new here.

No been around for years on here? Why u say that?

 

[Bookhead]

Im a resident but the non residents should really run the numbers and see what your odds would be in a random draw before you make your decision. Most of the areas you guys want to hunt are going to be 10% or less so you would have a 90%+ chance of never drawing that tag randomly. Just sayin.....

 

[Bookhead]

I just ran the numbers for the "precious" region g and i dont really think you guys are gonna like your random odds

 

[nripepi]

I'd like to see a 50/50 split if not stop the whole point system totally. I've never been a fan of point systems especially preference point systems. If your not in the moment it starts your left behind for the most part.
I Think point systems are terrible for hunter recruitment.Also I can't understand how people say you can't plan a hunt when you get draw results in spring or early summer heck how hard is it to get your junk together and go hunt.

The issue is when you draw too many tags. It is nice to have options for non-residents who only have 1-2 weeks to hunt.

 

[elks96]

Question. If you elminated the points system how would action be taken? Refunds? Not a fan of points but i for one would be frustrated of my 19 resident moose/sheep points were taken away. As of now i can plan a sheep hunt in the upcoming season or possibly another year or 2. I can plan my moose hunt in 6-8 years.

Dont get me wrong i can jump in and complain how things are ran. Like mnt. Goat being random. I drew a tag when i was 24 . Awesome right. But the guy who applies for 30 years and never draw sucks. But when things go my way im happy cause things went my way. Just human nature i guess.

I dont have a clue how things should be. I just play the game. But i will say it would be nice to as a resident to have a better chance at some LQ tags. It is my fault that i apply for the hardest elk tag and have drawn once in i think 14 years. But i solve the problem by getting a general tag. But in the end thats the choice i make and i have to understand only 10 tags issued that i making a huge huge gamble.

I feel like some minor changes need done. But i dont like drastic changes .


I know i kinda just went random on the post but i havent kept up with every post. Maybe this should of been in the 90/10 post or something else but all these threads are kinda just blended together and trying to attempt to keep up on all the threads

The very issue is once a point system starts it is hard to get rid of, and a good reason to always resist the points. But here is what I would do to reset the points.

When you end the points system that means no more points. The guys currently with points will get a squared advantage in the draw until all points are purged. So a guy with say 12 points squared would actually have their name in the hat 144 times where as a totally new person only has 1. Still use a random draw and eventually the points holders would be drawn. Also when you implement the rule any tag drawn for that species will cost the points. Failure to apply with points for 2 years drops all points instantly etc. Eventually everyone get back to base and those who invested in points will still get value from the points.

Just a note I was told i am a resident so I am not supposed comment anymore...

 

[fullthrottle]

Just leave it alone, Judas... hard tags to draw are always going to be hard, points or no points. Wyoming’s system is great. How can anyone argue that fact. I’m 100% in favor of a points system, that doesn’t mean the guy next to me might be 100% against it. What’s more fair than giving me some of what I like, and you some of what you like. There’s no fix all. Guys who think they are all the sudden going to start pulling great tags on a more regular basis because the draw goes random are kidding themselves. Its likely will never draw a great tag in a completely random system.

 

[BrianID]

I would rather go random. I would give up all my points in western states to see them all go random.

 

[jm77]

Just a note I was told i am a resident so I am not supposed comment anymore...

That's ok, hijack all you want.

 

[marburg]

Meh, will never happen. States are too addicted to that free preference point money. Generating millions selling intangible items is great work if you can get it.

 

[desperatehills]

Nothing wrong with points if you:
A) understand nobody guaranteed you or your kid a tag
B) realize there are and will always be, hunts you will never have a statistical chance to draw
C) after coming to grips with A and B; apply for the hunts you can draw, or wait till you have a reasonable chance to draw, and make the most of it

This was cut from wapitibobs post above. This is exactly how I think. I played the game for fourteen years. I am fine with it the way things are. If I was king for a day I would tweek a few things but all in all I am happy and do not feel cheated. I will accept the hunt I can draw when the time comes

 

[jims]

Looking at it from a nonres prospective, the pref pt game has been around for years. Nonres that have been in it for longer obviously have invested both time plus finances/fees in the system with high hopes of drawing a quality tag some day. As mentioned above converting to a different system would be like pulling teeth for those that have been in the game the longest.

With that said, no system is perfect and will make everyone 100% happy! Draw odds without a pref/bonus pt system is like winning the lotto for high demand nonres tags. The Wyo pref pt system how it is for elk, deer, antelope is somewhat of a compromise for everyone.

 

[all4freedom]

Honestly, the changes they made this year have turned me off to even applying. Bring on the bonus point season because I won’t apply and give the money to be held for months just for a chance. I’ll buy bonus points until I have close to a guarantee. The powers that be claimed in a written statement is was to give “more time to make a better decision on applying“..... it was more of a money thing and the longer they hold it the longer they’ve

I would rather go random. I would give up all my points in western states to see them all go random.

Looking at it from a nonres prospective, the pref pt game has been around for years. Nonres that have been in it for longer obviously have invested both time plus finances/fees in the system with high hopes of drawing a quality tag some day. As mentioned above converting to a different system would be like pulling teeth for those that have been in the game the longest.

With that said, no system is perfect and will make everyone 100% happy! Draw odds without a pref/bonus pt system is like winning the lotto for high demand nonres tags. The Wyo pref pt system how it is for elk, deer, antelope is somewhat of a compromise for everyone.

earn on it. What is a “better decision?” Drawing in February as opposed to May does nothing to make a “more informed decision.” Additionally, I can guide for Kodiak and Grizzly in Alaska but can’t hunt elk in bear country in Wyoming without a guide or resident? That is a guide service money driven rule. Possibly enough nonresidents will stop giving money to Wyoming Game and Fish that they’ll be forced to overcharge their residents.

 

[all4freedom]

Says the guy who probably hasn’t invested for years in bonus and preference points. New Mexico has what you want but they also started charging for a full price license this year just to apply and if you don’t draw you get absolutely nothing in return. Most states if you have to buy a license and you’ll never hunt and fish in you can receive a point for next time.

 

[Outdoordan]

I have lots of points, and I see the fallacy in the point system. It discludes the new hunters. It is also not as easy to predict when you will draw as some have pointed out. Especially if you are looking at the top tier units. Wyoming's top 9 units have draw odds less than 50% with full points, half of which are in the single digits. The top AZ rifle tags are all over 20 points, the top tier and middle tier AZ archery tags are all over 10 points. Colorado, well that is even worse, pretty much no great hunts with less than 15 points. And the point creep is going up. For the new hunter, especially those that start later in life, these tags could quite possibly be out of reach in a lifetime. I'd be for a 50/50 split. At least then, every year, ALL hunters would stand some kind of chance. For a point system, I think Nevada's is the best because everyone at least has a chance.

 

[Thomas11]

Honestly, the changes they made this year have turned me off to even applying. Bring on the bonus point season because I won’t apply and give the money to be held for months just for a chance. I’ll buy bonus points until I have close to a guarantee. The powers that be claimed in a written statement is was to give “more time to make a better decision on applying“..... it was more of a money thing and the longer they hold it the longer they’ve

earn on it. What is a “better decision?” Drawing in February as opposed to May does nothing to make a “more informed decision.” Additionally, I can guide for Kodiak and Grizzly in Alaska but can’t hunt elk in bear country in Wyoming without a guide or resident? That is a guide service money driven rule. Possibly enough nonresidents will stop giving money to Wyoming Game and Fish that they’ll be forced to overcharge their residents.

I agree! Every damn rule they come out with in Wyoming is 100% guide driven!

 

[SS!]

Additionally, I can guide for Kodiak and Grizzly in Alaska but can’t hunt elk in bear country in Wyoming without a guide or resident? That is a guide service money driven rule. Possibly enough nonresidents will stop giving money to Wyoming Game and Fish that they’ll be forced to overcharge their residents.

Its a little late in the year to be crying about this one. Its time to put it on hold until november. Back in the day the crying about the non resident wilderness law was a Jan. or even Feb topic. Now it creeps up as early as Oct.

I wonder how many guys that cry about the wilderness areas have actually spent time in them? Or would spend time in them.....

Just coffee rambles. Its a little early to have a beer....

 

[elks96]

Its a little late in the year to be crying about this one. Its time to put it on hold until november. Back in the day the crying about the non resident wilderness law was a Jan. or even Feb topic. Now it creeps up as early as Oct.

I wonder how many guys that cry about the wilderness areas have actually spent time in them? Or would spend time in them.....

Just coffee rambles. Its a little early to have a beer....

HAHA. I was chasing turkeys here in WY. I followed them with my son up to the wilderness boundary and then had to turn around. The very next day I found 5 grizzlies not in the wilderness. So yes the wilderness rule is absolutely silly.

I could not enter the wilderness with a shot gun hunting turkey, but I could have if I had my granola bars and a back pack.

Also silly because on June 3rd I can enter and hunt, but not until then...

 

[BuzzH]

HAHA. I was chasing turkeys here in WY. I followed them with my son up to the wilderness boundary and then had to turn around. The very next day I found 5 grizzlies not in the wilderness. So yes the wilderness rule is absolutely silly.

I could not enter the wilderness with a shot gun hunting turkey, but I could have if I had my granola bars and a back pack.

Also silly because on June 3rd I can enter and hunt, but not until then...

Actually, you're wrong, a nr can hunt turkeys in a wilderness area without a guide.

 

[elks96]

Actually, you're wrong, a nr can hunt turkeys in a wilderness area without a guide.

HYMMM!!! When I asked the biologist(not the officer like I probably should have) he said otherwise, but I can see how the rule would not apply since turkeys are not big game. But that still highlights another issue. I can hunt in the wilderness for small game, but not big?

 

[BuzzH]

Wilderness guide law only applies to big and trophy game...

Turkeys, upland birds, waterfowl, furbearers...no guide required.

Wardens and biologists don't always know the regulations either.

 

[all4freedom]

Entering with a shotgun as opposed to something I’d kill elk with makes a ton of sense. It’s guide/outfitter driven.