NR TAKE

what would you say if they open Northern and Central Region to open hunting, unlimted tags and the rest of the Regions to unit hunting and cut 13,000 tags in these Regions and you have to live with in these 3 Regions to draw a tag.
 
"I would be very supportive of that on a trial basis to see what happens.

Take a couple units and greatly restrict tag numbers.

Take a couple units and get rid of all the elk.

Take a couple units and get rid of all the predators.

Take a few units and only allow Archery.

Take a few units and leave them the same.

Take a few units and make them youth only.

Take a few units and graze them heavily.

Keep in mind these study's should be done state wide so we have a feel for all the effects in the different habitats that these ideas may have."



Best idea I've heard all year.
 
I would like to see if we add more bucks in the field, if that will help increase the deer herd. At least by adding more bucks in the field we will look more like Colorado, Nevada or Arizona which most of us will have to admit is better than our current state. I know Tony has said these other states do not have big deer herds either, but I would rather go hunt for a few nice bucks in the field rather than walk all over the hills to see 4 or 5 does and no bucks.
 
dont know if fishon is serious about a february study to check pregnancy rates.
If you are:
I've heard many times that you do not want to disturb these animals on the winter range especially that late in winter because this is when they are at their most vulnerable trying to get through the winter.
Isn't that why we keep shed hunters off the mountain until later?
Just asking.
 
Our deer herds are important enough that the impact it may have is worth it to get the FACTS.

We don't need excuses to not do something right. Lets do this and know for sure.

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
Why don't we do the study ASAP and find out if the doe's are pregnant or not and at what percentage?

Then if they are not pregnant we can cut the RIGHT amount of tags rather then just guess.

And if they are mostly pregnant then we can look at other options since the buck ratio won't be the issue?

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
How many does would have to be trapped and tested to find out good statistics??? Way too many in my opinion. Time and money would be better spent on more specific herd counts.
 
I believe you would have an accurate count with 5 different areaa of 20 doe's each.

How is this money not spent well? This would tell us with 100% accuracy if the doe's are getting bred which will tell us if we have enough bucks to do the breeding.

Then we need to find out if they are getting bred in November during the 1st cycle or December during the 2nd. If they are mostly getting bred late then that could have very bad ramifications. But if most of them are getting bred 1st then we know that bucks are not the issue.

I can not think is any better place to start or any better place to spend money then this.





Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
Tony,
I have to agree that this would be a very good starting point. If the does are getting bred in the first cycle then I would agree that the buck levels in the tested area are biologically correct, for getting the breeding done.

What is your suggestion if they are not?

Step 1 is always the hardest!
 
20 does would give you 100% accuracy????? That's the kind of mentality that created the deer count system we use today. It sure works well.
 
Actually Tony it would be good information but the only way to find out if your theories are correct is to also do the same pregnancy counts in an area with a good buck to doe ratio, outside of UT, like 30-35 bucks per 100 does. You would also have to do a precise count on the new fawn crop as well and follow up for recruitment the next year. That means you'd have to tag each one as well and possibly put telemetry transmitters on them. All you would get with trapping and testing 20 does per area would be a very, very weak average. It would be interesting to know how many mature does are getting pregnant though. All it takes is money...

I love your passion though Tony, keep pluggin, Steve
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-10 AT 09:17AM (MST)[p]Tony,

Like I said, you could get pregnancy rates from road kills. You don't need to have the expense of harrassing deer on winter ranges.
 
I have been reading all the great info on this site since about the time it started up, but have never made a comment. It is time I can not hold back no longer. This has to be the most stupid thing I have ever heard of, go chase Does around and preg test them? What would this tell you, Yes this one is prego. It will not tell you she will survive till June and have a pair of nice strong early fawns. We do need to be sure all the Does have a chance to be breed on there first estrus. Maybe like some of the guys are doing in southern Utah watching the rut would give us a clue. Or get out now if the Bucks are still rutting and the Does are standing for them. I think that would mean they were missed on the first estrus. This happens to be the case where I live in southern Utah. The last few days there is a lot of rut activity, and I have watched Does being breed. Of course like a lot of others have mentioned, we have 40 Does where a couple years ago there were hundreds, and two small Bucks are trying to service these 40 Does. Yes, they might all get pregnant. But if we really want to know the recoupment lets get out in June and see how many fawns per the does are on the ground. As far as cost to count the Fawns/Does in June, what a great dedicated hunter project. Sit on a hill all day and glass the nursery area?s, and this would not be harassing the deer in any way. I know the DWR is suppose to be doing these, but they are the same one?s that came up with the total deer count for the state? I agree with other post's if you want to preg test Does do it on road kills.

thnaks,tinenut
 
I agree lets use our dedicated hunters to see how many fawns on on the ground this spring. I think that they have so few deer now, that it would not be that hard to make a count and see if the fawns are being born, and if they are do the coyotes get them before they survive. We don't have enough deer in southern utah for the DWR to even estimate. They said they take a 400 minimum to classify deer, will be hard for them to find 400 deer in any area.
 
Are you telling me you there are enough road kills in a certain area to gather up and see if they were pregnant?

In other words where in the south can you get 20 dead doe's from the same basic area that were road kills?

FYI, they pole 1,000 people and tell you who is gonna be the next President of the USA, you for sure could test 100 doe's and tell how many are getting pregnant.

And watching deer in a field will NEVER be accurate as to how many get pregnant. Don't you think some of the breeding and some of the big bucks take care of business after it gets dark?

C'mon guys, you want to know if they are pregnant this is 100% way to know and not guess. You guys all complain that the DWR guesses, well this would be factual.

If you want the VAST majority of the state to support your 29 units and tag cuts then this is the way to get them on your side. If doe's are not getting bred for lack of bucks then cut permits. I am not afraid to support cutting tags if it is needed but I think most of you are afraid that if they are pregnant then you must support leaving tags in place.

So I am willing to find answers are you guys?


Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-10 AT 10:23AM (MST)[p]You have units in Utah with high Buck to Doe ratios that you could tell. DO the test on limited entry units as well like the Book CLiffs and the Henry Mountain and the Pauns.

The new fawn crop and how many make it through the 1st year are a different issue then Bucks breeding doe's. They are important figures but they are of no relevance to the doe's being bred or not.

Do you not think that if you went to a wintering ground that say had 100 doe's in a given areas that testing 20 of them would not give you an accurate count of pregnancy? I do.

We will never see all the breeding that goes on or all the bucks that are breeding. Especially these mature bucks that travel extensive areas to find the doe's that are in heat. IT is usually the little fellas that hang with a group of doe's for a long period of time hoping they get some actions while big daddy is away.

Yes it takes money Steve but tell me another idea that is out there that would let us know how many doe's are pregnant and that would give us the knowledge we need to have to know if we need to cut tags and how many?

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
Counting Doe's and Fawns in June will not tell us how many of them got bred.

There will be some Doe's that abort, some will have still born and some will be lost to predation at birth or shortly there after.

It won't let us know anything about the buck population and if there is enough bucks to bred the doe's.

We need to know while they are pregnant and at what stage they got pregnant so we know if they were bred in the 1st cycle or 2nd cycle.

This is priceless information that I believe we must have if we are going to accurately manage deer on unit by unit basis.

Why else we would manage unit by unit? Everyone has said it is so we can manage buck numbers and hunters. Well we need to know if there are enough bucks breeding doe's.

This is really a no brainer.

Now if there is enough road kill to do the test in a given area I am all for it but the problem I would think is you might not be able to tell how far along the doe is in the pregnancy if it si dead, but I may be wrong with that.

Lets do something now that we changed the way we hunt Utah otherwise we are just kicking out hunters, cutting revenue and ignoring the problems.

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
won't this cause alot of miscariage, by capturing and testing the doe's this time of year and maybe lose doe and fawn--is it worth it, I don't think so. I think it better to take our chance's in June and July.
 
Tony your whole agenda is to try and find a way to keep everyone hunting who wants to. I think we need one unit for you and all who feel that way and you can all hunt it every year knowing that it will not effect the bucks killed, there will always be bucks there for you to hunt, the rest of us want to give this 29 units a try and get more accurate counts, cut tags where needed, not hunt where needed and try to bring the deer herd back. As I can see you just don't want this so go lobby for one unit to put all the hunters who want a tag and hunt it all you want. Just don't do it in southern utah, we are trying to build a deer herd back here, yes even the bucks.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-10 AT 12:06PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-10 AT 12:05?PM (MST)

Is it not logical that the first step in helping declining
deer numbers is to reduce hunting tags?
Did not Arizona, Colorado, and Nevada do so at one time or
another when their deer herds plummeted as the result of a
prolonged drought in the case of Arizona and Nevada and a
massive, prolonged snowstorm in the case of Colorado.
Since then, the number of deer tags has either remained un-
changed or slightly increased.
The result has been dramatic in these three state's with deer
herds that are stable and thriving. Yes, other measures have
been implemented to help rescue these 3 deer herds, like an
intensive predator control program, increased elk harvest in
the case of Colorado, more water entrapment devices, and in-
proved summer and winter ranges. But, much more needs to
be done and should be done.
My point is that I find it hard to understand the aversion to
reducing the number of hunting tags when most are in agree-
ment of the declining numbers of deer in Utah. This is but ONE
of MANY measures that should be put into effect, but IMO a very
reasonable and effective measure to help with the state's de-
clining deer numbers.

ELDORADO
 
Nevada hunter could tell us, but I believe these states make good accurate counts every year on their deer herds and issue tags accordingly. The amount of tags changes year to year based on the number of bucks in the field. They did drastically decrease tags when there was no deer, and that is my point, right now we have no deer, hopefully as this moves along we can begin to put more permits in areas, but to go off a three year average is stupid. What does the past two years have to do with what we have now. To many hunters will continue to kill off to many bucks, we have to find a balance which will increase the buck doe ratio like Nevada, Colorado and Arizona, not just leave it as is and hope it works just because we have made 29 units.
 
Capturing 100 deer is a really big project. Doing it in Feb, is the worst time to put pressure on a whole herd not just those to be captured. The expense { monetary and mortality} would be way too high to justify such a questionable study.

Spend the money on predator control and habitat enhancement instead. Cut back on hunters in areas that don't have at least 20 per 100. Ten bucks per 100 just does not get the job done. No study needed.

A few other tweaks to weapon ability and season lengths to give alittle more advatage to the deer. Organize local volunteer groups in your specific zone to work with the DWR local warden for counts, and poacher watch, and raise moneys for specific projects.
 
"The new fawn crop and how many make it through the 1st year are a different issue then Bucks breeding doe's. They are important figures but they are of no relevance to the doe's being bred or not."

Actually the fawn crop IS the issue in my opinion. You are asking how many does are getting pregnant, but in REALITY, we need to know how the fawns are doing with their mothers being bred by yearling or two year old bucks. I've said this over and over, out of ten bucks in UT (or anywhere else with piss poor management), how many of them are mature????? Maybe two, extreme would be three. And out of 100 does how many of those are of breeding age, I'll guess 70. So you've got TWO MATURE BUCKS trying to breed 70 does. The immature bucks will be doing some of the breeding or they wont get bred. So just finding out what percentage of does are bred is incomplete data. And absolutely not, on your question as to whether 20 does is a big enough sample...NO WAY!!! But the only answer or solution I personally have is QUIT KILLING DOES!!!!!! We need to force the DWR to quit offering doe permits regardless of the buck to doe ratios.

My two cents, Steve
 
Tony, I understand what you are saying. But I think it would be too hard on the does not to mention the fetus. I am not sure what you could do with the info? So you find all does that can get pregnant are pregnant does that mean we have enough bucks? I think we need to make sure there is some competition in the rut, so we get the most dominant best genetic bucks breeding, and that we can catch the does in the first estrus. Maybe then we can get stronger fawns and more twins. Sounds like there is some good ideas being kicked around. We need to do what ever it takes to get our herds back. I think a lot of us are willing to help, if we just knew how?

By the way I might could show you a buck with a fawn, well maybe not a buck but it does have antlers. Also there is a couple does doing the breeding, well maybe not does but they have no sign of any antler, skin head bucks.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-10 AT 02:59PM (MST)[p]Bucktaxi, The herd I watch is about 300 head give or take from year to year. The buck to doe ratio goes from 15 to 20 per 100 give or take over the last five or six years.

There are only a hand full of mature bucks in that herd that do a larger percentage of the breeding. I have photo documentation of the same big bucks that show every year going back at least five years. [No idea where they hide during the season]

These mature bucks are with out a doubt breeding there daughters, granddaughters, and even great great grand daughters. And a large percentage of the pisscutters that are breeding are these same mature bucks offspring, and they are breeding with there sisters.

Tinenut, The above situation is what causes some of the things that you are seeing. [No horn buck, horned does and may other genetic defects]

I have not seen any horned does in this herd but no horned bucks are becoming more prevalent.

A side note; Fishon does not seem to understand that when people point out that they see late season fawns they are talking about July or first part of Aug. From what I read from his posts he seems to think you might see a abnormal number of fawns with spots any time of the year.

I am not making these obsevation on a bunch of town deer from
the edge of town in Provo. This is my house.



trees090.jpg



muley166.jpg


muley146-1.jpg
 
>Nevada hunter could tell us, but
>I believe these states make
>good accurate counts every year
>on their deer herds and
>issue tags accordingly.

You might want to do a little digging before you validate their methods of count in comparison to Utah.
 
Its funny how you guys tell me what it is I am trying to do when none of you have a clue as to my motive, here is my motive so none of you have to guess or make accusations any more.

I am trying to grow more DEER for EVERYONE. that is my only motive.

Now your motive is to have more bucks and that is apparent in the posts.

I would gladly kill 100 doe's if we could get facts that would help us in the long run and in the future.

I understand mule deer better than most of you give me credit for and not just cause I watch them EVERYDAY. I met with every western State on Mule Deer Management while I ran the MDF. I heard everyones thoughts and ideas and studied what they were doing. That is how I have formed my opinion.

How are you gonna know if doe's are bred if you don't test them? Just because a doe doesn't have a fawn with her in June or July does not by any means prove that she was not bred.

To many things can happen to that doe. Now listen to what I am saying. Listen closely Southern Boys so you understand what I am saying so you don't assume any longer what I am saying.

If it is buck problem lets find out now so we can cut the RIGHT amount of tags which may be a lot more than 13,000.

Did you hear me? Lets find out now for a fact so we are not guessing. Lets see if we have enough bucks and the right bucks rather than lets wait and see if cutting 13,000 tags will help.

I am starting to realize that this is more about what you want than what the deer need and that is obvious from your posts.

I want the HERD fixed and if that means cutting buck tags I am fine with it and will support it. But you guys don't look at it like that.

I don't hunt Southern, never have and don't plan on it. I hunt Central.

This is not a Central against Southern, this is fixing the herd.

LISTEN TO ME. IF BUCK NUMBERS ARE THE ISSUE THAN LETS CUT TAGS, BUT WE MUST FIND OUT 1ST.

Just because you say a lack of bucks is the issue does not mean it is. Just like if I say we have enough bucks doesn't mean there is enough.

Lets find out for sure. Lets find out if the doe's are getting bred.

But none of you want to find out just in case you are wrong.

I am fine if we find out its a buck problem, I will actually be happy if we did the study and found out it was a buck problem.

The reason I would be happy is because that would be the EASIEST thing to fix. Growing bucks is easy and all you have to do is cut tags and shut down hunts. But it has not worked on the Henry mountain or the Pauns or any of the other Limited Entry Units so why will it work on general units? My opinion is it won't. And that opinion is based off of a lot of info from ALL the Western States.

WE NEED MORE DEER AND IF THE BUCKS ARE NOT ABLE TO BRED ALL THE DOE'S THEN WE NEED MORE BUCKS but none of you know if we have enough bucks, you only think in your opinion we don't have enough.

Quit finding reasons not to find out for sure. If we lose 100 doe's but find out they are not pregnant than we know what to fix.

This is not about me guys this is about the deer. Saying you would rather hunt Nevada or Colorado cause they have more bucks tells me it is not about the deer for you it is only about the bucks,

Fix the herd and find out what the problem is, because none of us know for sure.

FYI, Colorado, Nevada, Arizona are all losing deer even though they drastically cut buck tags. It didn't fix the problem it only made it appear to go away cause guys saw more bucks.

If that is what you want then just admit it, don't hide behind "it's about the deer herd" like Utah's Wildlife Board did.

Make it about the deer which means you and me are willing to do what it takes to fix the problem, even if that is cutting 40,000 buck tags, killing 1,000 doe's or whatever else we need to do to find the issue.

Are you all clear on my motives now?





Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
Beautiful home castnshoot, nice spotting scope.

And, genetic diversity is a whole other subject. Kind of interesting to see how far a rutting buck will travel looking for mates to pass on his genes. Nature has hardwired that behavior to keep the gene pool diverse. I would imagine the lack of bucks would definitely effect that aspect.

Tony, I want the same thing you want whether you believe it or not, but, pregnancy tests on 20 does in one region is less than adequate. Sorry, the data would be inadequate.

I wish I had the answers, because I've been watching the deer numbers decrease everywhere in the west for 30+ years.
 
Tony
you call me in early to mid Aug. I know you have my number. We will go for a ride thru diamond fork with a spotlight and count fawns. also we will note the size of those fawns. My dad and I did this last year and about 30% of the fawns were noticeably smaller. This tells my uneducated self that those fawns where born later and have much less of a chance for survival thru the winter. I will also assume that those fawns were born late because the doe was not breed when it should have been. Now plan on a long night of looking because to find enough deer to feel like you have seen enough to draw any conclusions(20 just doesn't do it for me) we need to cover a lot of ground up there. Then we can jump in the plane in the morning and I will show you where there were 100's of elk 10 years ago and we will only see a few dozen now. Even my neighbors who run cattle all over the wasatch are disappointed with the lack of elk and deer when they ride thier allotments. O yeah it was nice to see the Central RAC step up and vote for a 96 hour trap check maybe you will be able to use your influence and help the board get it on the books so we can see the trappers kill more coyotes.
 
I don't have any influence Dave you know that. All the influence comes from SFW. I am just a solo guy.

But I will take you to where I have hunted deer for 15 years and I will show you more elk than deer. And that is on the Wasatch.

And I saw more elk this year then I did last and that has been the case for 10+ years. I will also show you where there use to be domestic sheep and now there are none, because wild sheep were put there and we know how great that turned out.

And this state was at its greatest deer population when we had 1 million sheep and less then 5,000 elk.


And Dave We can look at fawn size in August and guess the age and guess why they were smaller and assume they were conceived late or we can test in January and February and KNOW for a FACT and then decide if we need to cut tags and how many.

I have seen enough guess work over 15 years Dave as have you, don't you think it is time we get some Facts.

And it is not 20 doe's in a region, it would be 100 doe's in a given drainage within a region with it broke down to 20 doe's per smaller area in that area.

This is more than enough info to find out if bucks are breeding doe's.

And spotlighting is not gonna show us how many doe's had fawns in June when they drop. And it surly is not gonna tell us how many doe's were pregnant.

Dave, get that Organization you represent and that carries all the weight and that claims to represent the "average" hunter and get then to use some of the 1 million dollars a year they are given by the state of Utah and the general public in expo tags every year and get them to find out the real issues with deer rather then wasting that money on AUM's, school trust lands, overhead and whatever else you spend it on.

Enough talk about Look what we've done from EVERYONE. The deer herds are not any better than they were and probably worse since "sportsmen" united in 1993.

No one wants to be lied to anymore by the DWR, Wildlife board or ANY conservation groups. Find out the problems and fix them or stop telling people "look at all we have done".

Maybe a lot has been done but since none of it has worked maybe it was the wrong things and maybe they should stop being bragged about. Do something that makes a difference TODAY.

That is all the "Average" hunter wants.

PS. I will gladly take you up on that plane ride. I will even pay for gas.

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
Tony, Why would you assume you know my motive. My only motive is to try to help restore the deer herds. As far as doing it for my selfish southern Utah hunting opportunities, that would be wrong also. The only reason I will try to help and get involved is for my grandkids. I know who you are and where you have been, but I still don't think we should chase does around in February.
 
Tony:

We all want to help the deer herd, but bottom line is that the sportsmen in southern utah can see we cannot continue what we are doing or all the bucks will be gone. I am afraid it may all ready be to late with a nine day hunt coming up, one last free for all. I don't care what you say about central utah, we do not have many deer at all in southern utah. I live by a limited entry unit you say does not have many doe's but does have a lot of bucks, so what is that telling you, something is killing off the doe's. I think it is all the depredation hunts they are having. If we are seeing good numbers of bucks in these limited areas but no doe's maybe it is because we are shooting off the doe's in depredation hunts. A doe does have both male and female offspring and it seems like we are getting plenty of male offspring. Lets quit shooting the bald headed deer all together and let the herd come back.
 
Fishon, I want more deer too but I really dont want to sacrifice more does and fawns to simply find out if their prego.I'm pretty sure soutahunter had it when he said does have both doe fawns and buck fawns so how would it be easy to grow more bucks if does arent getting pregnant first cycle? Pretty sure a buck fawn is just as vulnrable to winter conditions as a doe fawn. I think you know as well as everybody else it would be easier to have 20-25 plus bucks and just make sure theres plenty to go around. First fix the major problems like,

#1 predators
#2 highway mortality(probably cant fix this one)
#3 less elk in areas like monroe where elk took over
#4 doe hunts
#5 habitat

But none of these matter if we cant have more sightability counts on deer. DWR can tell you any number they want. Just like the Paunsagaunt were you say high buck/doe ratio hasnt helped and the DWR has it at 600 over objective.

Please dont look for a "I told you so moment" by chasin does and fawns around in winter and runnin what fat reserves they have off of them. Sometimes just take a little advice.

P.S. get off the southern boys kick. At least we've been try'n to change things for some time now. We always went for change at are racs to improve deer herds. Not just to improve buck hunting like you say.
 
>
>P.S. get off the southern boys
>kick. At least we've been
>try'n to change things for
>some time now. We always
>went for change at are
>racs to improve deer herds.
>Not just to improve buck
>hunting like you say.

Maybe so, but results don't lie. The only significant thing that came out of this is "improved buck hunting".

Everything else is speculation and conjecture.

Also, it seems that you are insinuating that the "southern boys" are the only ones that have been concerned or doing anything about the direction of the deer herd. If this is the case, it is very arrogant and out of touch.
 
Not the case at all. I'm simply responding to constant attacks against the southern part of the state for only wanting more bucks not does. This undermines everything the southern racs have been trying to do.

Build not only the deer herd but improve the quality of deer hunting as a whole. I cant say what the other racs have tryed do as i've not been to any. I'll I know is that not much of the southern racs recomedations went very far when it went to the board until this year. I cant help that the outcome is not what you wanted.

Tree, it seems in most case's your the arrogant one that insists your views are right and any opposing views are either self pleasing or detremental to the herd. It does not prop you up any higher to try and cut someone else's views down.

Never get any different results if we constantly do the same thing. Try not to let your own ego get in the way of finding some better ways of management. We've got lots of room for improvment.
 
I am with you brutus, some thing got to change, I hunt the south end of the Beaver Mt, the little dog and big dog valley and during the rut we counted 12 small bucks and 7 groups of doe's with out any bucks in them and next year on this wonderful 9 day hunt DWR wants,the 300 plus hunters that hunt this place will kill every one of them, some thing has't to be done about this, I have hunted this place for over 50 years and Tony don't understand what we see and know, you just can't just keep over hunting units, can't he under stand this ?
 
Tony where do we send a check? The most frightening thing about this study is I think we will find out important info but it will be wasted money because the dwr will never change anything to get MORE DEER. Of course more bucks will help SOME, but not drastically enough to recognize a substantial increase in our base herd size, definatly more mature bucks though.
 
The does are getting pregnant, its when the fawns hit the ground they are not living from that point on... Predators, winter, etc... Don't waste your time on trying to preg check deer, it will never happen.You guys are dreaming....We can't even get the DWR or any one else to count the deer right, let alone preg check them.. My family has 500 head of cattle that winter and summer on BLM ground and every year we preg check them and come up with less than 10% that are not pregnant.. This is in the desert also... Deer have the best of feed, first to the feed in the spring and no certain area they have to stay in...We need to focus on what happens to the fawns after they are born...
 
One real simple way to test pregnancy would be to have a doe hunt in the early spring and place a mandatory law to bring the uterus to a DWR office. I'm saying drop ALL doe hunts and just have a few very small harvests in March or whenever the earliest date would work to test pregnancy.
 
Just spoke with a good friend who lives in southern Utah and
hunted most of his life in the state and is in full agreement
that difficult and drastic changes have to be made by the DWR
in order to help what he calls the dreadful state of the deer
herds in Utah.
He is in full agreement with the proposed cuts in the number
of hunting tags and the establishment of smaller units that
can be better managed.
Having hunted Utah myself for many years and seen first hand
the declining numbers of deer, especially in the south, that
the time has come IMO for the DWR to make difficult and for
many, unpopular changes to how the state will manage in the
future it's deer herds.
This is why I fully agree with the UDWR proposal to brake up
the 5 general deer regions into 29 units which would permit
IMO a better handle by the DWR to manage those herds and the
more controversial for most, a significant cut in the numbers
of hunting tags. These cuts could be monitored through time,
but for now, they are IMO a logical and expedient measure to
help with what seems to be a serious decline in the numbers
of deer in the state.
Studies have been suggested to determine the cause of the de-
cline of deer numbers. That is fine and proper, but they are
time consuming and expensive. Yet, in the interim the decline
in deer will continue without something being done NOW. Is it
not prudent and reasonable to implement a cut in hunting tags
now and help stabilize the herds as much as possible? These
tags can eventually be restored in part as the herds begin to
rebound in their individual unit. I liken the dismal health of
the deer herds to a patient in the ER who is in need of immed-
iate and lifesaving care. I don't think I am being overdram-
atic in my analogy. This is where we are at with the state of
health of Utah's deer herds.

ELDORADO
 
I am going to lobby for a section of Beaver Mt to be shut down, until they get option 2 in place ( from Junction over the mountain to Beaver I 15 south to U 20 east to 89 north to Junction, this section does not have any deer in it, it can't take another year of the same thing. A 9 day hunt will kill all the bucks their. I know I will have the backing from the hunters from Beaver, Panguitch, Circleville, Junction, Kingston and other small town. We have been keeping notes of all the bucks, doe's and fawn in this section of the Beaver Mt,so when it comes time to meet with the DWR, we will have a fighting chance with them.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-10 AT 03:46PM (MST)[p]rperkins, I agree with you that it may even have to come down
to closing certain areas of the state to permit the recovery of
certain deer herds.


ELDORADO
 
I can get DWR all the help they need to put up the sign and patrol the roads if they will close this section down. I wonder if DWR want the help. And I can get sportsman to help in counting the deer and fawn count, this spring.
 
I hope the UDWR would rescind their decision to extend from
5 to 9 days the 2011 general deer season. That proposal in
light of the gravity of the health of the state's deer herds
is simply difficult to comprehend.

ELDORADO
 

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